Bug: Physical damage ignores 100% armor

monkeymystic · August 2015

Are you seeing some high physical dmg numbers? Well it's not the abilities that are screwed, but it's because people are running around with 100% armor penetration with no effort what so ever.

The mace passive seems to be bugged, which gives a whole different number than it should. ZOS should also look into the sharpened trait and how it affects armor penetration...

IMPORTANT PART:
The abilities with physical dmg in itself are the doing the SAME damage as magicka abilities on paper, the difference is just that the CP system needs a way to reduce physical damage the same way it is for magic/flame/lightning/frost/disease etc.

ZOS also needs to address this armor penetration bug, because it gives physical dmg even MORE insane numbers.

If these two are addressed, then physical damage would be very balanced again.

Maulkin · August 2015

Did you miss the last 7 months?

100-times-told suggestion: Move the elemental resistance under the magic/poison resistance passive (Hardy), change Elemental Defender to something that gives mitigation to physical attacks.

Another suggestion: Use the Thick Skinned (Reduce dot damage) passive. Because elemental DoTs are already very, very heavily punished. You can mitigate them with spell resistance and Spell Shield passive, with Elemental Defender passive and Thick Skinned passive. When players get enough CPs to stack them all, elemental DoTs will do no damage whatsoever when you consider the Battle Spirit nerf too.

Yuke · August 2015

If they change CP tree like that, nobody will ever play stamina again.

Why should a magicka class get unlimited mana for utility spells + the same damage as a stamina class?

there will be literally no point in playing stamina again, where you have to sacrifce your magicka pool (less utility spells) for your damage.

I agree that they have to fix sharpened mace ASAP

kkampaseb17_ESO · August 2015

Yuke wrote: »

If they change CP tree like that, nobody will ever play stamina again.

Why should a magicka class get unlimited mana for utility spells + the same damage as a stamina class?

there will be literally no point in playing stamina again, where you have to sacrifce your magicka pool (less utility spells) for your damage.

I agree that they have to fix sharpened mace ASAP

Well said on every sentence.

Maulkin · August 2015

Yuke wrote: »

If they change CP tree like that, nobody will ever play stamina again.

Why should a magicka class get unlimited mana for utility spells + the same damage as a stamina class?

there will be literally no point in playing stamina again, where you have to sacrifce your magicka pool (less utility spells) for your damage.

I agree that they have to fix sharpened mace ASAP

I see your point.

To be fair they would have to fix the bug and leave it at that for a while to see the balance anyway. Changing too many things at once is never a good idea.

They have been in the process of adding utility spells for stamina users. For example in my sorc class 3/4 utility spells i use now have a stamina morph (Dark Exchange, Boundless Storm, Power Surge). Not to mention the utility skills in weapon lines (Momentum, Defensive posture etc), in Armor line (Evasion, Immovable) and in Alliance War (Caltrops, Rapid Manoeuvers, Vigor).

Sure, it's not there yet because the core survivability mechanics like Scales, Hardened Ward, Cloak, Breath of Life don't have a stamina equivalent.

But as the stamina utility spells increase in quantity and quality and while meidum armor has 3 times the mitigation of light that argument holds less and less.

Saying stamina should be more burst damage and less survivability is fine, but when magick damage can be mitigated by stamina builds by up to 75% though CS passives while it's nearly 0% the other way round... then i'd have to have 3 times the survivability to balance that out. I'm not sure that's the case...unless you are a magicka sorc atm.

Yuke · August 2015

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

But as the stamina utility spells increase in quantity and quality and while meidum armor has 3 times the mitigation of light that argument holds less and less.

They buffed light armor physical mitigation. I am sitting on buffed 12k physical resists with 7/7 light armor. 5 Medium + 1 + 1 has 17k resists buffed.

Maulkin · August 2015

Yuke wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

But as the stamina utility spells increase in quantity and quality and while meidum armor has 3 times the mitigation of light that argument holds less and less.

They buffed light armor physical mitigation. I am sitting on buffed 12k physical resists with 7/7 light armor. 5 Medium + 1 + 1 has 17k resists buffed.

I see, that i didn't know

Robbmrp · August 2015

monkeymystic wrote: »

Are you seeing some high physical dmg numbers? Well it's not the abilities that are screwed, but it's because people are running around with 100% armor penetration with no effort what so ever.

The mace passive seems to be bugged, which gives a whole different number than it should. ZOS should also look into the sharpened trait and how it affects armor penetration...

IMPORTANT PART:
The abilities with physical dmg in itself are the doing the SAME damage as magicka abilities on paper, the difference is just that the CP system needs a way to reduce physical damage the same way it is for magic/flame/lightning/frost/disease etc.

ZOS also needs to address this armor penetration bug, because it gives physical dmg even MORE insane numbers.

If these two are addressed, then physical damage would be very balanced again.

The easiest thing they could do is change the Armor/Spell Penetration so that it's on a % based with a cap. If you received 50% armor/spell penetration, that would only reduce the enemy's armor/spell amounts by 50%. Cap could be something like 60% reduction at the highest.

We should NEVER be able to make someones armor/spell resistance equal to 0. PERIOD....

SeptimusDova · August 2015

What has zos said about this ?

Garion · August 2015

SeptimusDova wrote: »

What has zos said about this ?

Nothing. Unsurprisingly!

Forestd16b14_ESO · August 2015

Thing is physical attacks normaly need you to use you know a sword or mace which means you have to be right there next to the guy to deal any damage so they are at a much higher risk of dieing than magical users casting there spells on say a balcony or rock away from the bad guy.

Gilvoth · August 2015

monkeymystic wrote: »

If these two are addressed, then physical damage would be very balanced again.
[/b]

that part of your statement is false,
"Physical Damage" from stamina based weapons is Right now and has Allways been Far less then magical damage.

Stalwart385 · August 2015

There is an issue with armor mitigation. If I'm wearing full heavy I shouldn't be hit like I'm wearing full light.

Nothing needs to be changed they just need to fix an apparent math bug with armor penetration.

Ezareth · August 2015

Stalwart385 wrote: »

There is an issue with armor mitigation. If I'm wearing full heavy I shouldn't be hit like I'm wearing full light.

Nothing needs to be changed they just need to fix an apparent math bug with armor penetration.

With 32K Spell Resistance I was still 1-shotted by a soul assault last night. 26K damage. Armor isn't the only thing being fully penetrated right now.

PBpsy · August 2015

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Thing is physical attacks normaly need you to use you know a sword or mace which means you have to be right there next to the guy to deal any damage so they are at a much higher risk of dieing than magical users casting there spells on say a balcony or rock away from the bad guy.

Ok. So when have bows and Snipe been removed from the game? Since those are are physical damage, have the highest range and good options to counter gap closers.

Derra · August 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

Stalwart385 wrote: »

There is an issue with armor mitigation. If I'm wearing full heavy I shouldn't be hit like I'm wearing full light.

Nothing needs to be changed they just need to fix an apparent math bug with armor penetration.

With 32K Spell Resistance I was still 1-shotted by a soul assault last night. 26K damage. Armor isn't the only thing being fully penetrated right now.

Well you don´t have to fully penetrate anything to do that kind of dmg with soulassault. The ability tooltip on builds with high spelldmg and magica is anywhere between 40 to 45k with every tick having the possibility to crit.

Comparing magica penetration to sharpened maces is just shady at best - especially with using soulassault as an example. You don´t want me to come back with dmg values of ferocious leap.

Ezareth · August 2015

Derra wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Stalwart385 wrote: »

There is an issue with armor mitigation. If I'm wearing full heavy I shouldn't be hit like I'm wearing full light.

Nothing needs to be changed they just need to fix an apparent math bug with armor penetration.

With 32K Spell Resistance I was still 1-shotted by a soul assault last night. 26K damage. Armor isn't the only thing being fully penetrated right now.

Well you don´t have to fully penetrate anything to do that kind of dmg with soulassault. The ability tooltip on builds with high spelldmg and magica is anywhere between 40 to 45k with every tick having the possibility to crit.

Comparing magica penetration to sharpened maces is just shady at best - especially with using soulassault as an example. You don´t want me to come back with dmg values of ferocious leap.

Highest Wrecking blow I've crit with my sharpened mace is in the 17K range and that is with executioner and empowered proc and 2800 weapon damage.

I get instagib from 40% health 15K Radiant destructions on my deathcaps all the time as well. Just saying all penetration is broken right now, not just armor penetration.

SeptimusDova · August 2015

How long has Zos known about this ? Has it been long enough that they could have fixed this in the current PTS meta?

Or is the straight 50% a roundabout answer to reduced and now working as intended?

Derra · August 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Stalwart385 wrote: »

There is an issue with armor mitigation. If I'm wearing full heavy I shouldn't be hit like I'm wearing full light.

Nothing needs to be changed they just need to fix an apparent math bug with armor penetration.

With 32K Spell Resistance I was still 1-shotted by a soul assault last night. 26K damage. Armor isn't the only thing being fully penetrated right now.

Well you don´t have to fully penetrate anything to do that kind of dmg with soulassault. The ability tooltip on builds with high spelldmg and magica is anywhere between 40 to 45k with every tick having the possibility to crit.

Comparing magica penetration to sharpened maces is just shady at best - especially with using soulassault as an example. You don´t want me to come back with dmg values of ferocious leap.

Highest Wrecking blow I've crit with my sharpened mace is in the 17K range and that is with executioner and empowered proc and 2800 weapon damage.

I get instagib from 40% health 15K Radiant destructions on my deathcaps all the time as well. Just saying all penetration is broken right now, not just armor penetration.

Radiant destruction is also not an ability i would exactly count as exemplary for magica dmg.

How much is your tooltip dmg on wrecking blow when empowered exactly - most likely in the 9.5k range. With sharpened you´re able to hit any target for capdmg + 25%cp which is not figured in the tooltip creating hits that are actually larger than the tooltip dmg might ever suggest.

In comparison - my highest fragment crits are about 17k at the moment when fully buffed. The tooltip for a fullbuffed fragment is ~13k. If spellpen would work anywhere close to physical penetration i would be seeing fragments in the range of 22 to 25k dmg.

Ezareth · August 2015

Derra wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Stalwart385 wrote: »

There is an issue with armor mitigation. If I'm wearing full heavy I shouldn't be hit like I'm wearing full light.

Nothing needs to be changed they just need to fix an apparent math bug with armor penetration.

With 32K Spell Resistance I was still 1-shotted by a soul assault last night. 26K damage. Armor isn't the only thing being fully penetrated right now.

Well you don´t have to fully penetrate anything to do that kind of dmg with soulassault. The ability tooltip on builds with high spelldmg and magica is anywhere between 40 to 45k with every tick having the possibility to crit.

Comparing magica penetration to sharpened maces is just shady at best - especially with using soulassault as an example. You don´t want me to come back with dmg values of ferocious leap.

Highest Wrecking blow I've crit with my sharpened mace is in the 17K range and that is with executioner and empowered proc and 2800 weapon damage.

I get instagib from 40% health 15K Radiant destructions on my deathcaps all the time as well. Just saying all penetration is broken right now, not just armor penetration.

Radiant destruction is also not an ability i would exactly count as exemplary for magica dmg.

How much is your tooltip dmg on wrecking blow when empowered exactly - most likely in the 9.5k range. With sharpened you´re able to hit any target for capdmg + 25%cp which is not figured in the tooltip creating hits that are actually larger than the tooltip dmg might ever suggest.

In comparison - my highest fragment crits are about 17k at the moment when fully buffed. The tooltip for a fullbuffed fragment is ~13k. If spellpen would work anywhere close to physical penetration i would be seeing fragments in the range of 22 to 25k dmg.

I'll have to check when I get home but keep in mind this is with executioner and empowered buff (I never use the magelight MOTG cheese). I know I've hit 20K Overload crits on my sorc and I'm not even a spellpower build! My fragment damage has only crit for max around 17K but I dont have any CPs into magick damage I'm all elemental.

sagitter · August 2015

Is there any video proff about this penetration bug, both pvp/pve?

Jakeol · August 2015

Spell and armor pen values need to be reassessed, especially with maces.

As far as some CP changes, the light, heavy, and medium armor focus selections need buffed. It feels very underwhelming.

Domander · August 2015

So... what testing did you do to come to this conclusion?

monkeymystic · August 2015

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Did you miss the last 7 months?

100-times-told suggestion: Move the elemental resistance under the magic/poison resistance passive (Hardy), change Elemental Defender to something that gives mitigation to physical attacks.

Another suggestion: Use the Thick Skinned (Reduce dot damage) passive. Because elemental DoTs are already very, very heavily punished. You can mitigate them with spell resistance and Spell Shield passive, with Elemental Defender passive and Thick Skinned passive. When players get enough CPs to stack them all, elemental DoTs will do no damage whatsoever when you consider the Battle Spirit nerf too.

I am one of those who came with several similar suggestions when CP was brand new, and I have always said that physical dmg needs more resistance.

Several times.

However, that does not change the fact that ZOS *still* haven't fixed it, so they need to be aware and reminded of this silly design failure.

Zos, it's about time that you fix armor/spell penetration already, it is currently way too OP and buggy still.

Armitas · August 2015

monkeymystic wrote: »

Zos, it's about time that you fix armor/spell penetration already, it is currently way too OP and buggy still.

Update, they have a fix coming.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

......
As an aside... we also fixed the armor penetration issue with the sharpened and piercing traits.

[Deleted User] · August 2015

The user and all related content has been deleted.

silky_soft · August 2015

Philonious1 wrote: »

I know this was fixed in a patch so that the Armor Penetration is now Additive instead of Multiplicative. Can someone give me an example of the difference between the two as it pertains to the Armor Penetration formula ?

It wasn't really like that there was to many things that were incorrect in their calcs to be able to show that. For instance in dual wield the armor you were wearing affected how much armor pen you had, the armor pen trait was giving same value no matter what colour the item was. They used a whole number and not percentages.

From the small amount of testing I've done since 2.1.1 I believe the data you get from the API about armor pen is now obsolete. So they have gone from being lazy using target armor value minus your penetration value (45k armor - 5.5k debuff - 60k armor pen) to adding percentages together to multiply against your armor value to reduce it ((45k armor - 5.5k debuff) * (1 - (0.1 + 0.07) + (0.1 + 0.07) - 0.25). Either way they calc it now, running mace with sharpened is still overall the best way to take down players as it's 59% max (+debuffs) instead of 100% (beside DK ulti). 1h sword doesn't give 2.5% to your tool tip damage, bleeds need a x2 buff and it's easy to get crit from champ tree.

So I've gone from wrecking people with 11k on 2.1.0 to 6.5k on 2.1.1. Which shows to be that 40% damage reduction. Who knows though because of the mitigation stacking bug.

[Deleted User] · August 2015

The user and all related content has been deleted.