Tanking With The LT - Black Rose Boom or Bust?

Stalwart385 · August 2015

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Fecius wrote: »

Some Black Rose in action:

https://youtu.be/0ji22xBjEt4

Looks like with engine guardian, black rose and evasion you can tank almost forever. So much for the "woe is me, tanking is dead" reaction threads. And you didn't even have any templars for spears, or any allies in general to activate synergies and get resources that way.

It does look like you'll need a 3rd source of resources other than black rose, pots & engine guardian though. So DKs will most certainly be fine with Battle Roar. NBs will surely be fine too with some tweaks to Siphoning Attacks. Templars are a bit trickier with Repetance, you'll need adds to kill to keep going.

As for Sorcs... well... surely you can cast some dark deal while tanking 10 enemies, no? (sarcasm)

Look like engine guardian rolls are pretty much required. See that low stam point between ulti and pot where engine guardian happens to toss stam.

Also I wouldn't really call this a blocking test since he is kite tanking. Definitely the right way to do it but not as a block test. Only one or two thing are hitting him most of the time. There are fights where you dont have such luxury.

Dagoth_Rac · August 2015

Stalwart385 wrote: »

Look like engine guardian rolls are pretty much required. See that the low stam point between ulti and pot where engine guardian happens to toss stam.

But you cannot wear Engine Guardian in Sanctum Ophidia. The little dwemer sphere tends to go down the portals that Mantikora opens, and take up a spot. So you end up with only 3 players and a dwemer sphere down below instead of 4 players. If the player who gets locked out by the dwemer sphere is a DPS, you can get by. But if you have no tank or healer, it is a wipe.

Fun fact: Repentance works on the dwemer sphere because he just dies after giving you back the resources and the corpse lays there for a bit, he does not disappear or anything.

Personofsecrets · August 2015

Fecius wrote: »

Some Black Rose in action:

https://youtu.be/0ji22xBjEt4

Hey! Thank you for the really nice video! It was good to see those magic based glyphs get some good use.

Can you please share if you had champion points in block cost reduction and in heavy armor.

Personofsecrets · August 2015

Stalwart385 wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Fecius wrote: »

Some Black Rose in action:

https://youtu.be/0ji22xBjEt4

Looks like with engine guardian, black rose and evasion you can tank almost forever. So much for the "woe is me, tanking is dead" reaction threads. And you didn't even have any templars for spears, or any allies in general to activate synergies and get resources that way.

It does look like you'll need a 3rd source of resources other than black rose, pots & engine guardian though. So DKs will most certainly be fine with Battle Roar. NBs will surely be fine too with some tweaks to Siphoning Attacks. Templars are a bit trickier with Repetance, you'll need adds to kill to keep going.

As for Sorcs... well... surely you can cast some dark deal while tanking 10 enemies, no? (sarcasm)

Look like engine guardian rolls are pretty much required. See that the low stam point between ulti and pot where engine guardian happens to toss stam.

Also I wouldn't really call this a blocking test since he is kite tanking. Definitely the right way to do it but not as a block test. Only one or two thing are hitting him most of the time. There are fights where you dont have such luxury.

That is good to point out. The only other thing that could be pertinent to mentioning is that, in the video, the player doesn't have the traditional skills that tanking a raid may require; war horn, pierce armor, deep slash, circle of protection, rapid maneuver, and extended chains are a few of those abilities.

Also, the Dwemmer Sphere can cause chain lightning in AA.

leandro.800ub17_ESO · August 2015

What about the Armor Master set?

Personofsecrets · August 2015

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

And the obvious, impen; who wants to lose 16% of the physical resistance across 5p of gear? Doesn't mean much in PVP but as far as PVE tank sets go stacking physical resistance is far more useful than reduction in crits from NPCs that can't crit.

Hey @AhPook_Is_Here ,

Two people have said that random trait Black Rose exists, but I am still hoping to get an actual item link to one of those items.

Personofsecrets · August 2015

leandro.800ub17_ESO wrote: »

What about the Armor Master set?

That is certainly an interesting set. I don't know of an easy way to compare it to Black Rose or Histbark.

Stalwart385 · August 2015

I'll post some screenshots and item ID's of the Black Rose when I get home.

I bought five blue VR15 bags and only received Reinforced and Well-Fitted, so it likely has limited random traits. It also comes with random enchants. Some have Magicka, Health or Stamina on them. They are all heavy and were all Black Rose pieces.

Personofsecrets · August 2015

Stalwart385 wrote: »

I'll post some screenshots and item ID's of the Black Rose when I get home.

I bought five blue VR15 bags and only received Reinforced and Well-Fitted, so it likely has limited random traits. It also comes with random enchants. Some have Magicka, Health or Stamina on them. They are all heavy and were all Black Rose pieces.

I figured the developers had learned that exploration isn't something that end game players want after watching Joe Blackburn's interview with Deltia and friends

I look forward to your later post.

ThatNeonZebraAgain · August 2015

leandro.800ub17_ESO wrote: »

What about the Armor Master set?

I think the Armor Master set has some hidden potential. When used with the Medium Armor active ability, it will basically roll together (and then some) 2 of the most valuable parts of NB tanks: Mirage ability and the Shadow Barrier passive (Major Evasion and armor/spell resist buffs), but also add 5% max hp. Could even be useful for Magicka tanks since it would promote constant use of Harness Magicka while buffing armor, spell resist, and health at the same time. If the buff from Armor Master stacks with Major Armor and Spell resist buffs and bonus values, it could get real interesting. If it does stack and you used Immovable while wearing this set, you would gain a total of 9850 armor and spell resistance. If effective hardcap is around 32k, then that means you can gain 30% of that amount just from using this set and ability combo. That's pretty big. Add to that the non-Major buff from Blood Spawn, which gives an additional 6300 armor and spell resistance, and NB Shadow Barrier passive, another 5200 armor and spell resistance, and it just gets ridiculous (it all totals up to 21350 armor and spell resist). I would think you could come up with a medium or light armor DPS tank with some variation of all that.

Stalwart385 · August 2015

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

leandro.800ub17_ESO wrote: »

What about the Armor Master set?

I think the Armor Master set has some hidden potential. When used with the Medium Armor active ability, it will basically roll together (and then some) 2 of the most valuable parts of NB tanks: Mirage ability and the Shadow Barrier passive (Major Evasion and armor/spell resist buffs), but also add 5% max hp. Could even be useful for Magicka tanks since it would promote constant use of Harness Magicka while buffing armor, spell resist, and health at the same time. If the buff from Armor Master stacks with Major Armor and Spell resist buffs and bonus values, it could get real interesting. If it does stack and you used Immovable while wearing this set, you would gain a total of 9850 armor and spell resistance. If effective hardcap is around 32k, then that means you can gain 30% of that amount just from using this set and ability combo. That's pretty big. Add to that the non-Major buff from Blood Spawn, which gives an additional 6300 armor and spell resistance, and NB Shadow Barrier passive, another 5200 armor and spell resistance, and it just gets ridiculous (it all totals up to 21350 armor and spell resist). I would think you could come up with a medium or light armor DPS tank with some variation of all that.

I agree with this possibly combined with a medium armor build using evasion or immovable.

The main issue I see is that you loose out on the reduced block from heavy which will become pretty necessary. Also while blocking you don't get the stam regen benefit from medium to cast your armor skills. If you are wearing heavy you probably won't need the extra armor.

That's PvE mainly. A medium armor PvP build running immovable, that doesn't use blocking much, could become very tanky with this. If they fix the 100% armor pen that is.

leandro.800ub17_ESO · August 2015

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

leandro.800ub17_ESO wrote: »

What about the Armor Master set?

I think the Armor Master set has some hidden potential. When used with the Medium Armor active ability, it will basically roll together (and then some) 2 of the most valuable parts of NB tanks: Mirage ability and the Shadow Barrier passive (Major Evasion and armor/spell resist buffs), but also add 5% max hp. Could even be useful for Magicka tanks since it would promote constant use of Harness Magicka while buffing armor, spell resist, and health at the same time. If the buff from Armor Master stacks with Major Armor and Spell resist buffs and bonus values, it could get real interesting. If it does stack and you used Immovable while wearing this set, you would gain a total of 9850 armor and spell resistance. If effective hardcap is around 32k, then that means you can gain 30% of that amount just from using this set and ability combo. That's pretty big. Add to that the non-Major buff from Blood Spawn, which gives an additional 6300 armor and spell resistance, and NB Shadow Barrier passive, another 5200 armor and spell resistance, and it just gets ridiculous (it all totals up to 21350 armor and spell resist). I would think you could come up with a medium or light armor DPS tank with some variation of all that.

Hybrids could go with a mix of light and medium Armor Master + Immovable

Deltia · August 2015

Excellent job testing this, thanks a lot so I don't have to farm stones on the damn PTS.

Personofsecrets · August 2015

Deltia wrote: »

Excellent job testing this, thanks a lot so I don't have to farm stones on the damn PTS.

Thank you.

I watched your tanking video for the new update and I think you have, after figuring in diminished returns, about 78% block cost mitigation.

If we put that value, as x, into the Histbark stamina "gain" equation, then we can figure out the stamina savings you are getting per Hist Bark activation.

That stamina "gain" from each Hist Bark activation, in the case of 78% block cost mitigation, turns out to be around 475 stamina. The gold v16 Black Rose set will be gaining 817 stamina per activation. This means that, with the amount of block cost reduction that you are currently using that there is roughly a 42% difference, in favor of Black Rose, when it comes to gaining stamina per set activation.

This all being said. We lose the 20% damage mitigation from Histbark, we lose about half of our jewelry enchantment efficiency, lose champion point efficiency, and have to slot defensive stance in order to use black rose at it's highest potential.

What deal, between Hist Bark and Black Rose do you think is better? Do you think there is any content in the game that favors one setup over the other?

Stalwart385 · August 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Stalwart385 wrote: »

I'll post some screenshots and item ID's of the Black Rose when I get home.

I bought five blue VR15 bags and only received Reinforced and Well-Fitted, so it likely has limited random traits. It also comes with random enchants. Some have Magicka, Health or Stamina on them. They are all heavy and were all Black Rose pieces.

I figured the developers had learned that exploration isn't something that end game players want after watching Joe Blackburn's interview with Deltia and friends

I look forward to your later post.

I opened a sixth bag today and recieved an infused trait. So you can add that to the possibilities. I also thought I had some with Health enchants but only had Stam and Magicka enchants.

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Maulkin · August 2015

Stalwart385 wrote: »

Look like engine guardian rolls are pretty much required. See that low stam point between ulti and pot where engine guardian happens to toss stam.

Seems like it. Though Bloodspawn could work for a DK too I guess.

Stalwart385 wrote: »

Also I wouldn't really call this a blocking test since he is kite tanking. Definitely the right way to do it but not as a block test. Only one or two thing are hitting him most of the time. There are fights where you dont have such luxury.

He is kite tanking in parts, but kite tanking is what you often do in fights with many adds. Plus like I said, he would have a lot more resources if he was part of a raid. From things like elemental drain / siphon spirit on bosses to blazing spears, to synergy activations, to repentance from corpses, to stam from master's resto healing springs etc.

I'm pretty sure he could face tank it, just stand there and block, if the had a team with him.

All I was trying to say is that it certainly does not look that bad for PvE. It will still be possible, even if the difficulty has been turned up a notch. I think that's also good, cause from what I saw tanking went from "mostly meh, but tricky in parts" in 1.5 to "just hold block and fall asleep" in 1.6.

People will moan like always but it's gonna be fine in the end.

Personofsecrets · August 2015

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Stalwart385 wrote: »

Look like engine guardian rolls are pretty much required. See that low stam point between ulti and pot where engine guardian happens to toss stam.

Seems like it. Though Bloodspawn could work for a DK too I guess.

Stalwart385 wrote: »

Also I wouldn't really call this a blocking test since he is kite tanking. Definitely the right way to do it but not as a block test. Only one or two thing are hitting him most of the time. There are fights where you dont have such luxury.

He is kite tanking in parts, but kite tanking is what you often do in fights with many adds. Plus like I said, he would have a lot more resources if he was part of a raid. From things like elemental drain / siphon spirit on bosses to blazing spears, to synergy activations, to repentance from corpses, to stam from master's resto healing springs etc.

I'm pretty sure he could face tank it, just stand there and block, if the had a team with him.

All I was trying to say is that it certainly does not look that bad for PvE. It will still be possible, even if the difficulty has been turned up a notch. I think that's also good, cause from what I saw tanking went from "mostly meh, but tricky in parts" in 1.5 to "just hold block and fall asleep" in 1.6.

People will moan like always but it's gonna be fine in the end.

Hey Mike, thank you for the constructive feedback.

I just wanted to write that, even though people are finding ways to adapt to the nerf, it is still a nerf. People have done a good job at finding new builds, but I am concerned that certain ways of tanking have been invalidated by the nerf.

Quite a few people now have brought up how certain builds are no longer as effective and I believe them. For example, on live, I can have a difficult time shield bashing certain enemies over and over in VDSA. My stamina is already drained to 0 during parts of that instance and it will especially be with the stamina regeneration nerf.

Maybe we can manage to complete the same instances that we have already done hundreds of time and that is a testament to how good people are at finding ways around problems, how players are stronger than the type of player that was expected for the content, and how skilled we have become at mastering things that we have done many times.

I have a question though. What happens to our previous builds, strategies, and play styles? Is it worth invalidating those things so that the goal posts of what tanks do can be shifted? And are these goal posts really being shifted under the purpose of whats "fun?"

Stalwart385 · August 2015

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Stalwart385 wrote: »

Look like engine guardian rolls are pretty much required. See that low stam point between ulti and pot where engine guardian happens to toss stam.

Seems like it. Though Bloodspawn could work for a DK too I guess.

Stalwart385 wrote: »

Also I wouldn't really call this a blocking test since he is kite tanking. Definitely the right way to do it but not as a block test. Only one or two thing are hitting him most of the time. There are fights where you dont have such luxury.

He is kite tanking in parts, but kite tanking is what you often do in fights with many adds. Plus like I said, he would have a lot more resources if he was part of a raid. From things like elemental drain / siphon spirit on bosses to blazing spears, to synergy activations, to repentance from corpses, to stam from master's resto healing springs etc.

I'm pretty sure he could face tank it, just stand there and block, if the had a team with him.

All I was trying to say is that it certainly does not look that bad for PvE. It will still be possible, even if the difficulty has been turned up a notch. I think that's also good, cause from what I saw tanking went from "mostly meh, but tricky in parts" in 1.5 to "just hold block and fall asleep" in 1.6.

People will moan like always but it's gonna be fine in the end.

He was a DK, which he needed to be so he could return resources with his ultimate. He still needed the engine guardian roll dispite that.

I hear what your saying about kite tanking. Its necessary in 1.6 also. Still some fights you have to stand your ground. For example when you have adds you cant talons and/or you get snared. Also if you run into alot of ranged adds.