[Video] Critical Surge no working for DW Flurry. This can't be working as intended, right?

Huggalump · August 2015

In this update, they made it so DoT crits don't activate the heal for critical surge. This way, the very short internal cooldown on the heal doesn't get used up on a nearly worthless DoT heal. Good change!

However... apparently flurry counts as a DoT? This is a problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbDJIowcSZI

Glory · August 2015

Skills that do damage over time are all considered DoTs that I've tested.

Other similar DoTs:

Curse
Jabs
Radiant Destruction

dsalter · August 2015

best thing to do is just seperate the last tick as direct damage.
for radiant, well dunno

RoyJade · August 2015

Flurry is a dot since a long time, only the last hit is a direct hit. So, now the flurry/surge combo is not good at all.
For sorc skill, mines, curse and encase are dots too.

Huggalump · August 2015

I would just like to know if this is working as intended or not. If it is working as intended, it destroys my build because dual wielding stam sorc is no longer an option

Jar_Ek · August 2015

The weird thing is they reduced the cool down to 0.1 seconds, so dots plus other skills should play better together anyway!

ADarklore · August 2015

Huggalump wrote: »

I would just like to know if this is working as intended or not. If it is working as intended, it destroys my build because dual wielding stam sorc is no longer an option

So your entire build was based upon ONE skill and solely because of that HEAL?!? Crazy, because I run as a Stamina Sorc w/DW and I have no problems and I'm not even using Surge. Perhaps it is because I'm also an Imperial, with racial bonus to health, stamina and health regen in melee combat.

Huggalump · August 2015

ADarklore wrote: »

Huggalump wrote: »

I would just like to know if this is working as intended or not. If it is working as intended, it destroys my build because dual wielding stam sorc is no longer an option

So your entire build was based upon ONE skill and solely because of that HEAL?!? Crazy, because I run as a Stamina Sorc w/DW and I have no problems and I'm not even using Surge. Perhaps it is because I'm also an Imperial, with racial bonus to health, stamina and health regen in melee combat.

Yes, my whole build is based on one skill soley becuase of the heal. As a stamina sorc, we have absolutely no spammable melee skill. As DW, the best one I have is Flurry. The other DW skills are a dot, an aoe, a defensive skill, and a ranged snare that is not stamina efficient.

Also, you might be aware of this game mechanic... health goes down when things attack you. As a stamina sorc, the way I maintain my health is through surge. Not just my build, but my character is based on it. I'm a khajit in medium armor dual wielding daggers. I'm built for crit to take full advantage of crit in an attempt to make stamina sorc work.

If flurry no longer works with surge and they don't give stam sorcs any kind of attacking ability, then my build stops being playable.

ADarklore · August 2015

Well, it sounds to me like a build issue, not an "ability" issue. Sadly, you can't 'play how you want' and then complain that it doesn't work- this game, which offers significant advantages to various races- is not designed to be a "successful no matter what you choose to play or ability you want to use". You have to learn to maximize your build if you want to be successful, and relying on ONE ability is only creating more problems down the road. There are plenty of options, but if you choose to play how you want, then you also must accept that you are limiting yourself and have to deal with those consequences.

Personally, I run:
1: Velocious Curse, Hidden Blade, Rapid Strikes, Deadly Cloak, Unstable Clannfear
2: Restraining Prison, Liquid Lightning, Steel Tornado, Thundering Presence, Unstable Clannfear

Bar one is obviously for Single Target and the other for AoE. I run 6 pcs Medium armor and 1 pc Light (because I can't stand the appearance of Heavy/Medium shoulders, only Ancient Elf works for my character). I will switch out Deadly Cloak for Surge once I gain access to it, and will eventually drop Thundering Presence for Hardened Ward.

I have all attributes into Stamina, all armor Enchantments with Magicka, wearing Night's Silence and Seducer set armor; eventually will be going Hunding's Rage @5 pcs and Seducer @4 pcs. I rarely die, and even when I do, it is usually due to my own mistake, nothing to do with the build. I also use Purple food to boost all stats, although I may eventually switch to just running Mag/Stam blue food once I get my Imperial Red Diamond passives. My Mundus is the Thief, and my build is focused upon high crit weapon damage as well.

Huggalump · August 2015

ADarklore wrote: »

Well, it sounds to me like a build issue, not an "ability" issue. Sadly, you can't 'play how you want' and then complain that it doesn't work- this game, which offers significant advantages to various races- is not designed to be a "successful no matter what you choose to play or ability you want to use". You have to learn to maximize your build if you want to be successful, and relying on ONE ability is only creating more problems down the road. There are plenty of options, but if you choose to play how you want, then you also must accept that you are limiting yourself and have to deal with those consequences.

Personally, I run:
1: Velocious Curse, Hidden Blade, Rapid Strikes, Deadly Cloak, Unstable Clannfear
2: Restraining Prison, Liquid Lightning, Steel Tornado, Thundering Presence, Unstable Clannfear

Bar one is obviously for Single Target and the other for AoE. I run 6 pcs Medium armor and 1 pc Light (because I can't stand the appearance of Heavy/Medium shoulders, only Ancient Elf works for my character). I will switch out Deadly Cloak for Surge once I gain access to it, and will eventually drop Thundering Presence for Hardened Ward.

I have all attributes into Stamina, all armor Enchantments with Magicka, wearing Night's Silence and Seducer set armor; eventually will be going Hunding's Rage @5 pcs and Seducer @4 pcs. I rarely die, and even when I do, it is usually due to my own mistake, nothing to do with the build. I also use Purple food to boost all stats, although I may eventually switch to just running Mag/Stam blue food once I get my Imperial Red Diamond passives. My Mundus is the Thief, and my build is focused upon high crit weapon damage as well.

yes, im aware there are different builds. You found something that works for you. Great! I found something that works for me... until next patch. That's why I said "my build" won't work if flurry is considered a DoT.

Right now, my build is fantastic and it synergizes with every aspect of my character. However, if flurry doesn't work with surge, my build breaks.... but even bigger than that, if flurry doesn't work with surge, that means surge doesn't have value anymore for all DW stamina sorcs. That doesn't seem like the goal the devs were going for with the surge DoT change.

Jar_Ek · August 2015

The thing with surge is that melee users have 2hander heals with rally which are generally better than surge as they are reliable and include a burst if needed. DW has no good heals and hence the reliance on surge which won't heal with rapid strikes, blade cloak, the dot on slashes (main part of its damage) - which leaves 2 skills. Also not great for a lot of bow skills and even the sorcerer skills (liquid lightning for example).

I have tested it on pts and cannot say I am happy with the results... I like many hoped to be able to go back to a dw build, but it really doesn't cut it tbh.

Nifty2g · August 2015

Typically anything with a cast time / channeled ability is considered Damage over Time

Ahzek · August 2015

Shameless self plug:
I also mentioned this issue in my stam sorc feedback thread for 2.1.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/201417/stamina-sorcerers-with-2-1/p1
Take a read and voice your comcerns there as well, we might make ZOS do something.

To the others, this is not a case of a "bad" build based on the believe of "play how you want". This is a case of a perfectly valid build (that works on live), which would be ruined by a design choice. This choice being rapid strikes counting as a DoT.
The OP is not relying one "one ability to carry him everywhere". He is relying on crit surge and the interactions it brings with fast hitting decent damage rapid strkies and a high crit chance to keep his character alive, while dealing damage.
This interaction will be ruined and he will have to look for sustain options elsewhere. Probably in the two handed skill line with rally, dropping Dw in the proccess. It is a shame, that such a build should be impossible to pull off, simply because of a weird design descision by ZOS and it is completly understandable to me, that he wants this interaction restored.

ADarklore · August 2015

Well, having played DCUO for over two years prior, I can tell you that my experience with that MMO, and I am sure other MMOs are like them as well, changes occur frequently as they try to 'balance' and increase diversity amongst other skill lines, abilities, etc. I have never, myself, understood why devs are so concerned about how other people play and how they constantly want them to play THEIR WAY. So they see a large majority of players using one skill, so they nerf it to try and FORCE them to be more diverse. I've seen a lot of players leave DCUO because of how frequently they would do this, in an attempt to get players to play THEIR way, or as in the case of ESO "working as intended"... intended by them anyway.

TBois · August 2015

ADarklore wrote: »

Well, having played DCUO for over two years prior, I can tell you that my experience with that MMO, and I am sure other MMOs are like them as well, changes occur frequently as they try to 'balance' and increase diversity amongst other skill lines, abilities, etc. I have never, myself, understood why devs are so concerned about how other people play and how they constantly want them to play THEIR WAY. So they see a large majority of players using one skill, so they nerf it to try and FORCE them to be more diverse. I've seen a lot of players leave DCUO because of how frequently they would do this, in an attempt to get players to play THEIR way, or as in the case of ESO "working as intended"... intended by them anyway.

and feedback is or should be a big part of how the changes are implemented. This is good feedback in the PTS section.

The issue as I see it is that if you are a stam sorc and are looking for ways to heal yourself you don't have many options, within the class there are shields and crit surge. Other options are vigor and weapon heals. So if you are running a stam dps build w/o 2h, your options are no heals, which apparently works for you, or using crit surge in combination with your dps skills. If you want sustain and self heals as a stam sorc you feel pigeonholed into using rally.

The only reason that ZOS has made crit surge not able to proc on dots is to provide more reliable heals while keeping the cooldown. I think a better solution for reliable heals with crit surge without the ability to over heal is to limit the number of targets you can get healed from like sap essence for nightblades.

Huggalump · August 2015

ADarklore wrote: »

Well, having played DCUO for over two years prior, I can tell you that my experience with that MMO, and I am sure other MMOs are like them as well, changes occur frequently as they try to 'balance' and increase diversity amongst other skill lines, abilities, etc. I have never, myself, understood why devs are so concerned about how other people play and how they constantly want them to play THEIR WAY. So they see a large majority of players using one skill, so they nerf it to try and FORCE them to be more diverse. I've seen a lot of players leave DCUO because of how frequently they would do this, in an attempt to get players to play THEIR way, or as in the case of ESO "working as intended"... intended by them anyway.

You know, i understand your point. I think I explained it wrong before by focusing on my build. Let me explain it again in a better way.

The problem I see here is really simple. The Devs tried to change surge to be better for melee users by lowering the cool down and removing DOT heals. For two handers, it's better now. For sword and board, it's better. For dual wield, however, not only is it worse, it's actually unusable.

I made the thread with that perspective in mind. I can't imagine the Devs made this change with the intention of making surge useless for dual wield.

Huggalump · August 2015

Ahzek wrote: »

Shameless self plug:
I also mentioned this issue in my stam sorc feedback thread for 2.1.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/201417/stamina-sorcerers-with-2-1/p1
Take a read and voice your comcerns there as well, we might make ZOS do something.

To the others, this is not a case of a "bad" build based on the believe of "play how you want". This is a case of a perfectly valid build (that works on live), which would be ruined by a design choice. This choice being rapid strikes counting as a DoT.
The OP is not relying one "one ability to carry him everywhere". He is relying on crit surge and the interactions it brings with fast hitting decent damage rapid strkies and a high crit chance to keep his character alive, while dealing damage.
This interaction will be ruined and he will have to look for sustain options elsewhere. Probably in the two handed skill line with rally, dropping Dw in the proccess. It is a shame, that such a build should be impossible to pull off, simply because of a weird design descision by ZOS and it is completly understandable to me, that he wants this interaction restored.

Yeah, I left a comment in your thread. If anything here will get their attention, hopefully it's your thread.

I figured your thread is good for theory talk and new things stam sorcs need, but I made this thread because this reflects a change they made that breaks something.