Kallipsoe wrote: »

I don't like the idea of removing or switching all my skills for three new tree's, that would just be like adding new class's. However I would like the idea of adding a new tree to each class and there you would select to be either a Shadowblade/Bladestalker/Thief and that would determine your new tree.

An idea like this could be a good work around to removing vet levels. They could tie the additional attribute points to leveling up your new "Veteran Class". Could be daily quests "or some quest line" you would have to complete specifically for your new "Veteran Class" IOT level it up "much like the undaunted, fighters or mage guild" unlocking attribute points and new ability's.

Mitchblue wrote: »

darkspyro92_ESO wrote: »

Kallipsoe wrote: »

I don't like the idea of removing or switching all my skills for three new tree's, that would just be like adding new class's. However I would like the idea of adding a new tree to each class and there you would select to be either a Shadowblade/Bladestalker/Thief and that would determine your new tree.

An idea like this could be a good work around to removing vet levels. They could tie the additional attribute points to leveling up your new "Veteran Class". Could be daily quests "or some quest line" you would have to complete specifically for your new "Veteran Class" IOT level it up "much like the undaunted, fighters or mage guild" unlocking attribute points and new ability's.

I do like that idea. It could be like Dragon Age: Inquisition where you have to complete a quest for one of three trainers who will then unlock your new potential.

But if not mistaken DA once you make decision that's it no turning back. Can't really do that here..

Mitchblue wrote: »

darkspyro92_ESO wrote: »

Mitchblue wrote: »

darkspyro92_ESO wrote: »

Kallipsoe wrote: »

I don't like the idea of removing or switching all my skills for three new tree's, that would just be like adding new class's. However I would like the idea of adding a new tree to each class and there you would select to be either a Shadowblade/Bladestalker/Thief and that would determine your new tree.

An idea like this could be a good work around to removing vet levels. They could tie the additional attribute points to leveling up your new "Veteran Class". Could be daily quests "or some quest line" you would have to complete specifically for your new "Veteran Class" IOT level it up "much like the undaunted, fighters or mage guild" unlocking attribute points and new ability's.

I do like that idea. It could be like Dragon Age: Inquisition where you have to complete a quest for one of three trainers who will then unlock your new potential.

But if not mistaken DA once you make decision that's it no turning back. Can't really do that here..

Well you can't swap classes either, so why not be unable to swap the new skill tree? Choose wisely, for there is no turning back. I guess you can have it where if you want you can pay another trainer to retrain you. I feel if we do that it should remove all XP from the previous tree and reset them all back.

But once you choose something and don't like it, character is toast. It's not the same with what we have now, not entirely.

Mitchblue wrote: »

darkspyro92_ESO wrote: »

Mitchblue wrote: »

darkspyro92_ESO wrote: »

Mitchblue wrote: »

darkspyro92_ESO wrote: »

Kallipsoe wrote: »

I don't like the idea of removing or switching all my skills for three new tree's, that would just be like adding new class's. However I would like the idea of adding a new tree to each class and there you would select to be either a Shadowblade/Bladestalker/Thief and that would determine your new tree.

An idea like this could be a good work around to removing vet levels. They could tie the additional attribute points to leveling up your new "Veteran Class". Could be daily quests "or some quest line" you would have to complete specifically for your new "Veteran Class" IOT level it up "much like the undaunted, fighters or mage guild" unlocking attribute points and new ability's.

I do like that idea. It could be like Dragon Age: Inquisition where you have to complete a quest for one of three trainers who will then unlock your new potential.

But if not mistaken DA once you make decision that's it no turning back. Can't really do that here..

Well you can't swap classes either, so why not be unable to swap the new skill tree? Choose wisely, for there is no turning back. I guess you can have it where if you want you can pay another trainer to retrain you. I feel if we do that it should remove all XP from the previous tree and reset them all back.

But once you choose something and don't like it, character is toast. It's not the same with what we have now, not entirely.

Hmmm... Maybe some kind of training tutorial to practice with the class to see if you like it or not?

The problem would be that we change our minds. An example would be a sorc, you can summon pets or have a build without pets. Lets say they change the system where you can be a summoner, 2 months later you hate it - then what?

Gidorick wrote: »

BY THE POWER OF GRAYSKULL I SUMMON @TheShadowScout!!!

Scout... you've got to make a thread with your idea. It's an amazing idea!

Asrien wrote: »

I think this idea has potential but it would need to be done a certain way to be viable: Max out all the skills and passives, and morphs in one of your class trees and then be given the option to spend a new kind of point called something like a Mastery Point or Prestige Point or something, this point allows you to "evolve" a class tree into a new one, giving you back all of your skill points from its predecessor, and allowing you to unlock a series of more powerful successors to them. You would be allowed to unlock a series of basic skills to allow you to accomplish this without giving up everything, and this new class would also buff your base stats accordingly so that you aren't shooting yourself in the foot. Pros of this are they would allow someone even at max level to continue to improve their skills and classes, they'd be able to have more power and versatility against hostiles, and they'd actually feel more like they'd mastered their class than how we currently do. Like, I'm a Dragon Knight, I've got all my skills as a dragon knight to 50 and they're all morphed as much as I care to morph them, but now there's nowhere else for my DK skill trees to go. Allowing a transformation of one or more of them would allow me to go even further again, and feel a greater sense of accomplishment and pride in my abilities.
As a DK here are some ideas for some skills for the Master Class/es (I actually think having one penultimate class that has the best of the basic three would be a great way to go, with skills from each) that I think could work nicely:

Scales of Akatosh: A hardened shell that grants x spell resistance, x armor resistance and x regen, lasts 15-30 seconds. A successor to Hardened Armour, this would coat the player in a full covering of firey-molten scale armour, making them the epitome of tanking, however it would have a moderate-high cost of both stamina and magicka making it more balanced rather than just a "damnit now they can't be killed AND they can buff their damage".

Arms of Red Mountain: Up weapon damage by 20%-40% for 10-15 seconds, every 5 seconds a critical or heavy attack can add on 3 seconds to the duration of this effect, can stack onto the existing duration. Successor to Molten Arms. Medium-to-high stamina cost, named after Red Mountain, largest volcano in Tamriel, which does justice to its power. The 3 second addition could be done as a morph, but is only 3 seconds because it allows the duration to be elongated but not indefinitely, considering the high cost it would require and that it's still something that opponents can counter-act, especially if they're mobile. It would be similar to werewolves remaining in form longer than the standard 10 seconds through devouring and its perks. Werewolves certainly aren't invincible, they just do a damn good amount of damage. Which isn't everything as many have learned playing WW in PvP.

Magmatic Blood: Ups health and stamina regen by x percent for 20-30 seconds. Successor to Dragon Blood, basically straight-up. Medium stam cost. Rather than just a heart visible through their ghost-ly visage the full cardiovascular system would be visible and engulfed in a fire-y glow. Morph could either slightly reduce cost or do magicka as well, some combination of those things possibly.

Fury of the Atronarch: An attack launches you at high speed towards a single target, leaving a trail of fire that does x damage over x seconds, lasting for x seconds before disappearing. Attack itself does x damage to target, leaving them with a flame effect that does x damage over x seconds and inflicts fear for 2-5 seconds on 2-3 nearby enemies. Moderate stam cost, low magicka cost. Morph could also add a slow effect to enemies who step into the fire-trail, or increase frightened enemy's susceptibility to damage.

Flame's Vigilance: burst of flame comes from the caster that inflicts x flame damage onto enemies within x meter radius and summons a ball of fire that spins around the player granting Major Fortitude and that other one that its predecessor did. Successor to the Flames of Oblivion or whatever it's called, moderate magicka cost, looks nicer, maybe gives the caster an eye effect like the storm knight's get, or makes their hands glow with a fire-y hue similar to the one people get while they're closing an anchor.

These are all suggestions geared for a melee player who uses both stam and magicka as I do. All sorts of that last sentence probably sickened a number of people "how dare you use stamina and magicka you hybrid piece of n00b trash!" the answer's simple: I play how I feel comfortable, and there are stam and magicka skills that I like using, so I use both and I've gotten pretty far that way.

I think these sorts of suggestions make sense here too, if we're talking about class morphs or successors to classes perhaps we should all provide examples of the kinds of things we'd like to see in them. The more thought that goes in the more the devs can probably get inspiration for ways to make it a reality, if they care enough to do so instead of nerfing stuff (which isn't a complaint I understand why it's getting done, but it'd be nice if we got some additions as well as down-gearing things we already have).

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

BY THE POWER OF GRAYSKULL I SUMMON @TheShadowScout!!!

Scout... you've got to make a thread with your idea. It's an amazing idea!

Did someone call for me?

Anyways, here's the thing I always post when this comes up - current revision:

Personally I would think the best way to add more "classes" is to give each class, say, three different "class morphs", each with its own new skill/passives line. Perhaps becoming available after completing cadwells silver/gold... to reward people who do play through that - a variation of the idea was to let them do the class morph after silver, and let them pick a cross-class skill line (basic class skills only) after gold...

Some possibilities:

Dragonknight
- Gladiator (offensive self buffs & warcries; color: red/orange)
- Pyromancer (flame resist and even more fire; color: yellow/blue - gas flame!)
- Warlord (defensive group buffs, AoE standards, color: purple/gold)

Nightblade
- Illusionist (illusion summoning, mind magic; color: red/black - NPC illusionist)
- Monk (melee support & assorted “matrial arts” magic; color: blue/purple)
- Ranger (animal summoning and nature magic; color: brown/green)

Sorceror
- Cryomancer (ice magic, color: white/clear - NPC cryomancer)
- Necromancer (death magic and undead summoning; color: cyan - NPC coldfire)
- Spellsword (melee support & buff magic; color: yellow/orange)

Templar
- Druid/Shaman (nature magic, totems, animal summons; color: green/brown)
- Crusader/Paladin (melee support and aura-style buff magic; color: white/gold)
- Witch-hunter (counterspells, spell resistance/shields, silencing; color: purple/red)


Another possible idea was to not only have an added skill line with its own flavor of visual effects, but maybe even morph the existing effects to match.
So for example if a sorceror goes necromancer, their spells might be color-shifted to necromancer “coldfire” cyan, and if they turn cryomancer, their dark magic crystals will turn ice-ish in effects, spells will get color-shifted to white-blue or white-purple, or a nightblade going ranger would have their reddish effects recolored to something nature-ish green & brown... that sort of stuff. For more visual goodieness and varietee between classes.

Perhaps even morph the spell effects to some degree... like, for necromancer, summons might be morphed from the daedric familiar/clannfear/twilight/storm atronarch set to necromancer stuff like skeleton, flesh atronarch, wraith, bone colossus... or for cryomancer, their summons will be something along the lines of wisps, ice wraiths and frost atronatrchs... same for other visuals, summoned armor might look daedric on normal sorc, worm cult / lick on necromancer, and ice armor on cryonamcer, etc.
That idea might perhaps take a bit too much coding to be viable though... I'd be happy with pure color shifts.

...of course, all those quick ideas are just very rough concepts, without much consideration but character fluff. I merely tried to give some options, and went for three instead of just two "magica-specialization / stamina specialization" - It's supposed to be more for added character diversity then anything else after all.

Thus for example with nightblades, there might be one magica-caster based with "illusionist", one stamina melee based with "monk" (Yes, a nod at the old D&D class of the name, the first “martial arts” powered class I remember in fantasy gaming) and one pet based as "ranger" since nightblades mesh very well with bow, and giving them woodland creatures for the "hunter" playstyle would seem applicable.

Similar thoughts for the sorceror - spellsword for stamina sorcerors, cryomancer since ice staves have no matching skill line yet (while fire and lightning staves sort of have), and necromancer because all too many people really, really want that...

Templar... the druid/shaman is a very natural idea, between breton wyressess, argonian treeminders and bosmer spinners, nature magic meshes very well with Templar healing and sunlight-powered spells; paladin is for stamina templars and a nod at the old D&D class of the same name (possibly subject to TES-ification change), and my "witch-hunter" idea is kinda inspired by the spanish inquisition (Yes, I know noone expected that ), its "warhammer" imperial counterpart and also "Dragon Age", I admit it... seems logical to set up the aedric-flavored templars as natural enemies of the more deadric-flavored sorcerors...

Dragonknight I had the fewest ideas, since I kinda dislike that class. More fire magic for dragonknight magica-casters with pyromancer is a natural first thought... so then I went with "leader-style group play support" and "berserker-style single combatant" flavors, though there may be better ideas then those...

In any case, since more diversity is always something I would love to see... much more fun having more choices in realizing your “perfect” character, especially since the limited number of skills one can actually use at any one time (5+U) makes people having to think and choose anyhow, so adding more active skills only increases a characters choices, not exactly their power...

And yes, I am working on expanding this with some more ideas for abilities and such... its slow going, but I will post when its done.

darkspyro92_ESO wrote: »

Atarax wrote: »

No more abilities locked behind "classes" please. That is not "play how you want" and didn't show up in any previous Elder Scrolls game. Classes are not needed in an MMO, as has been demonstrated in other classless MMOs.

If all class abilities are unlocked to every character, fine, otherwise, it's better if they just add to weapon, world, or guild lines so that everyone can use them.

This isn't the previous Elder Scrolls games. This is an MMO Elder Scrolls, not a single player one.

Atarax wrote: »

No more abilities locked behind "classes" please. That is not "play how you want" and didn't show up in any previous Elder Scrolls game.

Lizenz wrote: »

Atarax wrote: »

No more abilities locked behind "classes" please. That is not "play how you want" and didn't show up in any previous Elder Scrolls game.

This is false. Every Elder Scrolls game before Skyrim had a class system. (at the very least Morrowind and Oblivion did).

darkspyro92_ESO wrote: »

Lizenz wrote: »

Atarax wrote: »

No more abilities locked behind "classes" please. That is not "play how you want" and didn't show up in any previous Elder Scrolls game.

This is false. Every Elder Scrolls game before Skyrim had a class system. (at the very least Morrowind and Oblivion did).

Oblivion didn't. It was an open world where you could get any weapon or spells you wanted, or even make your own spells. (I loved making suicide spells that made me explode because it was stupidly funny.)

darkspyro92_ESO wrote: »

Atarax wrote: »

darkspyro92_ESO wrote: »

Atarax wrote: »

No more abilities locked behind "classes" please. That is not "play how you want" and didn't show up in any previous Elder Scrolls game. Classes are not needed in an MMO, as has been demonstrated in other classless MMOs.

If all class abilities are unlocked to every character, fine, otherwise, it's better if they just add to weapon, world, or guild lines so that everyone can use them.

This isn't the previous Elder Scrolls games. This is an MMO Elder Scrolls, not a single player one.

Wow. Really? Thank you for telling me, I had no idea that was the case, even though I was in beta and have been playing since.

/sarcasm

I've played every major MMO since Everquest beta. Classes are an outdated concept and do not match "play how you want" nor the spirit of the Elder Scrolls franchise.

The game would be much better if all class abilities were available to everyone (yes, it actually does work and there are MMOs that do this, waaaay less whining on their forums and almost no nerfing).

While I would agree, I'm not sure how balanced that would be in PvP. I was a beta tester as well, and I found it worked out pretty well. If all the class skills were unlocked to everyone, the skills that are here would give everyone god powers. The defense of a DK, the stealth prowess of a NB, the healing mastery of the Templars, AND the Daedric power of the Sorc. I just feel like that's a recipe for failure in a PvP setting because everyone who's high enough leveled has a perfect setup for massacre. Remove some of the ultimates and some of the skills and maybe I could see it, but with all of the classes mixed together it would be insane.

darkspyro92_ESO wrote: »

Atarax wrote: »

Lizenz wrote: »

Atarax wrote: »

No more abilities locked behind "classes" please. That is not "play how you want" and didn't show up in any previous Elder Scrolls game.

This is false. Every Elder Scrolls game before Skyrim had a class system. (at the very least Morrowind and Oblivion did).

What I said is absolutely true. In both Morrowind and Obilivion you could build your own class, and ultimately max every stat and get access to every ability. You had the option to pick a class, but it was just a launchpad, it didn't restrict you from learning other abilities (some you just learned faster than others).

darkspyro92_ESO wrote: »

Lizenz wrote: »

Atarax wrote: »

No more abilities locked behind "classes" please. That is not "play how you want" and didn't show up in any previous Elder Scrolls game.

This is false. Every Elder Scrolls game before Skyrim had a class system. (at the very least Morrowind and Oblivion did).

Oblivion didn't. It was an open world where you could get any weapon or spells you wanted, or even make your own spells. (I loved making suicide spells that made me explode because it was stupidly funny.)

This applied to Morrowind and earlier games too. Some people were lazy and didn't realize it though. @Lizenz can still get Morrowind on Steam if you don't believe me I always built my own class carefully so I could max everything.

darkspyro92_ESO wrote: »

Atarax wrote: »

darkspyro92_ESO wrote: »

Atarax wrote: »

No more abilities locked behind "classes" please. That is not "play how you want" and didn't show up in any previous Elder Scrolls game. Classes are not needed in an MMO, as has been demonstrated in other classless MMOs.

If all class abilities are unlocked to every character, fine, otherwise, it's better if they just add to weapon, world, or guild lines so that everyone can use them.

This isn't the previous Elder Scrolls games. This is an MMO Elder Scrolls, not a single player one.

Wow. Really? Thank you for telling me, I had no idea that was the case, even though I was in beta and have been playing since.

/sarcasm

I've played every major MMO since Everquest beta. Classes are an outdated concept and do not match "play how you want" nor the spirit of the Elder Scrolls franchise.

The game would be much better if all class abilities were available to everyone (yes, it actually does work and there are MMOs that do this, waaaay less whining on their forums and almost no nerfing).

While I would agree, I'm not sure how balanced that would be in PvP. I was a beta tester as well, and I found it worked out pretty well. If all the class skills were unlocked to everyone, the skills that are here would give everyone god powers. The defense of a DK, the stealth prowess of a NB, the healing mastery of the Templars, AND the Daedric power of the Sorc. I just feel like that's a recipe for failure in a PvP setting because everyone who's high enough leveled has a perfect setup for massacre. Remove some of the ultimates and some of the skills and maybe I could see it, but with all of the classes mixed together it would be insane.

You forget that we're restricted to a limited number of active abilities. You'd still have to pick and choose. I realize for people who haven't played MMOs like I describe before that they may share your concerns. However, in practice, those other games have PvP and it works well. As an example, there's another game that limits you to 7 actives (more than we have here), and it still works really well, with lots of variety in builds and fun PvP. Interestingly enough, there are some flavor of the month builds in those games, but then people figure out builds to kill those builds, and other people who figure out other effective combinations and keep them quiet. So you end up with a lot more build diversity.

Well the class system to me wasn't much of a class system. Yes it didn't restrict you, and all it gave was boosts and bonuses. I wouldn't really call that a "class" system so much as a "specialization" system.

I guess I can see where you're coming from with the no class thing now, and it would work a lot like RIFT since RIFT, even though it has classes, has an incredible amount of souls to where you can even turn a Rogue into a medic or tank, to the point where it's almost like the classes don't even matter.

While I guess that could work out, I think they are doing something similar to that since they are adding Spellcrafting and have confirmed it will be added. We will just have to wait and see how that turns out, first. I guess I can agree on the no-class restriction thing, though, now. Free to play how we want without restrictions. I would enjoy that. The active skill limitation would be very useful to limit the power people could have.

Remember, though, that people can switch between two weapons and hot bars, which allows for double builds. With the right addon, it also allows for two armor sets.

Atarax wrote: »

Lizenz wrote: »

Atarax wrote: »

No more abilities locked behind "classes" please. That is not "play how you want" and didn't show up in any previous Elder Scrolls game.

This is false. Every Elder Scrolls game before Skyrim had a class system. (at the very least Morrowind and Oblivion did).

What I said is absolutely true. In both Morrowind and Obilivion you could build your own class, and ultimately max every stat and get access to every ability. You had the option to pick a class, but it was just a launchpad, it didn't restrict you from learning other abilities (some you just learned faster than others).

darkspyro92_ESO wrote: »

Lizenz wrote: »

Atarax wrote: »

No more abilities locked behind "classes" please. That is not "play how you want" and didn't show up in any previous Elder Scrolls game.

This is false. Every Elder Scrolls game before Skyrim had a class system. (at the very least Morrowind and Oblivion did).

Oblivion didn't. It was an open world where you could get any weapon or spells you wanted, or even make your own spells. (I loved making suicide spells that made me explode because it was stupidly funny.)

This applied to Morrowind and earlier games too. Some people were lazy and didn't realize it though. @Lizenz can still get Morrowind on Steam if you don't believe me I always built my own class carefully so I could max everything.

darkspyro92_ESO wrote: »

Atarax wrote: »

darkspyro92_ESO wrote: »

Atarax wrote: »

No more abilities locked behind "classes" please. That is not "play how you want" and didn't show up in any previous Elder Scrolls game. Classes are not needed in an MMO, as has been demonstrated in other classless MMOs.

If all class abilities are unlocked to every character, fine, otherwise, it's better if they just add to weapon, world, or guild lines so that everyone can use them.

This isn't the previous Elder Scrolls games. This is an MMO Elder Scrolls, not a single player one.

Wow. Really? Thank you for telling me, I had no idea that was the case, even though I was in beta and have been playing since.

/sarcasm

I've played every major MMO since Everquest beta. Classes are an outdated concept and do not match "play how you want" nor the spirit of the Elder Scrolls franchise.

The game would be much better if all class abilities were available to everyone (yes, it actually does work and there are MMOs that do this, waaaay less whining on their forums and almost no nerfing).

While I would agree, I'm not sure how balanced that would be in PvP. I was a beta tester as well, and I found it worked out pretty well. If all the class skills were unlocked to everyone, the skills that are here would give everyone god powers. The defense of a DK, the stealth prowess of a NB, the healing mastery of the Templars, AND the Daedric power of the Sorc. I just feel like that's a recipe for failure in a PvP setting because everyone who's high enough leveled has a perfect setup for massacre. Remove some of the ultimates and some of the skills and maybe I could see it, but with all of the classes mixed together it would be insane.

You forget that we're restricted to a limited number of active abilities. You'd still have to pick and choose. I realize for people who haven't played MMOs like I describe before that they may share your concerns. However, in practice, those other games have PvP and it works well. As an example, there's another game that limits you to 7 actives (more than we have here), and it still works really well, with lots of variety in builds and fun PvP. Interestingly enough, there are some flavor of the month builds in those games, but then people figure out builds to kill those builds, and other people who figure out other effective combinations and keep them quiet. So you end up with a lot more build diversity.