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The Imperial City Werewolf as observed by Caius Rockclaw
Chrlynsch
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I have spent countless hours on the testing and playing werewolf since beta. In all honesty werewolf became more viable in Pts, yes there is a little bit of work to get it just right. I wear 5 heavy 2 medium. white strike/ravager. Though I have experimented with many other sets on pts.
Many on you have probably seen myself in pts and fought me while I was in forum. But after about 15 hours in werewolf form this is what I've found.
All of the following are my opinions on the PTS Werewolf, and in all honesty aimed at making the werewolf viable, not op.
The Bad
1. With damage lowered and weakness lowered you really won't get one shot anymore, this being said @ZOS severely nerfed our two solid forms of damage mitigation/longterm survivability, Roll dodge and block.
2. Range on abilities/attacks seams a little short. Infectious claws, heavy attack, light attack, I have to hit them with my forearms in order for it to register a hit. That being said WW clap/hug animation probably can be shelved.
3. Devour still takes too long (sitting duck) and does little besides refill your timer and top off your health.
4. All of the werewolf abilities are way too expensive The werewolf heal is a little too weak for how expensive it is. This is one of the most expensive heals in the game and does little heals 3.5k
5. Werewolf lacks a strong mitigation/utility ability/self preservation ability/purge;
A. Nightblades can cloak to avoid damage
B. Templars have strong self heals if magica/ eclipse
C. Sorcs great battlefield mobility with streaks, and strong class damage shield
D. Dragonknight has wings
E. All classes can shield stack (some better than others)
F. All classes have access to vigar/momentum/bloodcraze
G. All classes have access to armor abilities/buffs/dodge chance
6. We lose ultimate after reverting form.
7. Timer is a little too short.
8. Ultimate cost is too high.
9. Fear has a 1 sec cast time.
10. Loss of most class, guild, weapon passives.
11. Little to hard to lock onto a devour
12. Rousing Roar only 4 sec major brutally?
The Good
1. Damage is perfect and in line with other classes!
2. They are also adding 10k armour and spell spell resistance while in form which stated = roughly 15% damage reduction. This buff is welcome, though won't be the Werewolf's pvp redemption, with how much armor/spell pen that are currently in game.
3. The transformation is faster!
4. The stam regen is only applied only when slotting the ultimate.
5. There is a lot of food for werewolves in the Imperial City and the bodies don't instantly despawn. This doesn't help regular Cyrodiil.
I would like to see fixes and changes are not only ones that would make make werewolf more fun to play, but also more fun to fight.
The Fix
1. Add poison weakness to human forum as well.
2. Slightly increase range of melee abilities.
3. Devour now takes about a second and IS interuptable, has NO cooldown. Werewolves shouldn't have to sit down to a five course meal to stay in form, we are bloodthirsty, just give us a nibble and the taste of blood. This heals for the same amount but also applies all major recovery buffs for 30sec.
4. Reduce the cost of the ultimate to 150 and allow us to keep ultimate gained while in form. If the later is impossible lower the cost further. Also decrease the cost of werewolf abilities by at least 20%
5. Make werewolf form punishable by death in cities. Justice system
6. Bloodrage also that grants both major evasion and major brutality when taking damage
7. Roar now costs magica and is an instant cast and fears 2 enemies. Rousing Roar now grants major savagery to all allies for 10 sec.
8. Increase base timer by 50%
9. Hercine's Rage now cost stamina, scales off stamina and weapon damage.
10. No stealth, but add detection range increase. (Master hunters right). Whenever I am fighting a nightblade I feel like someone just raised a stick up in the air yells FETCH then proceeds to fake me out as I run around looking for the stick.
What do these changes do for the werewolf?
Having a penalty to human form helps to define our characters, and makes the affliction more of a decision. Changing our devour, gives us another way to heal ourselves in combat and regen adds to our sustain. Adding evasion gives us a unique inactive way to decrease incoming damage. Changing Roar to cost magica and Hercine's Roar to stamina makes sense, as a true utility ability should not derive stats from your weakest resource, without taking too much away from magica inclined werewolves. As of now building up ultimate takes way too much time and when you transform you take too much time trying to eat, and stay in form to truly enjoy it. Let us transform and revert in a fight to suit our will, cheaper and refilling ultimate will make werewolf a really unique experience.
Your thoughts?
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS @ZOS_JessicaFolsom
PS @ZOS_BrianWheeler my werewolf is starving in regular Cyrodiil. I know you sacrificed the deer to the lag gods, Hercine is not happy.
Edited by Chrlynsch on August 2, 2015 6:51PM Many on you have probably seen myself in pts and fought me while I was in forum. But after about 15 hours in werewolf form this is what I've found.
All of the following are my opinions on the PTS Werewolf, and in all honesty aimed at making the werewolf viable, not op.
The Bad
1. With damage lowered and weakness lowered you really won't get one shot anymore, this being said @ZOS severely nerfed our two solid forms of damage mitigation/longterm survivability, Roll dodge and block.
2. Range on abilities/attacks seams a little short. Infectious claws, heavy attack, light attack, I have to hit them with my forearms in order for it to register a hit. That being said WW clap/hug animation probably can be shelved.
3. Devour still takes too long (sitting duck) and does little besides refill your timer and top off your health.
4. All of the werewolf abilities are way too expensive The werewolf heal is a little too weak for how expensive it is. This is one of the most expensive heals in the game and does little heals 3.5k
5. Werewolf lacks a strong mitigation/utility ability/self preservation ability/purge;
A. Nightblades can cloak to avoid damage
B. Templars have strong self heals if magica/ eclipse
C. Sorcs great battlefield mobility with streaks, and strong class damage shield
D. Dragonknight has wings
E. All classes can shield stack (some better than others)
F. All classes have access to vigar/momentum/bloodcraze
G. All classes have access to armor abilities/buffs/dodge chance
6. We lose ultimate after reverting form.
7. Timer is a little too short.
8. Ultimate cost is too high.
9. Fear has a 1 sec cast time.
10. Loss of most class, guild, weapon passives.
11. Little to hard to lock onto a devour
12. Rousing Roar only 4 sec major brutally?
The Good
1. Damage is perfect and in line with other classes!
2. They are also adding 10k armour and spell spell resistance while in form which stated = roughly 15% damage reduction. This buff is welcome, though won't be the Werewolf's pvp redemption, with how much armor/spell pen that are currently in game.
3. The transformation is faster!
4. The stam regen is only applied only when slotting the ultimate.
5. There is a lot of food for werewolves in the Imperial City and the bodies don't instantly despawn. This doesn't help regular Cyrodiil.
I would like to see fixes and changes are not only ones that would make make werewolf more fun to play, but also more fun to fight.
The Fix
1. Add poison weakness to human forum as well.
2. Slightly increase range of melee abilities.
3. Devour now takes about a second and IS interuptable, has NO cooldown. Werewolves shouldn't have to sit down to a five course meal to stay in form, we are bloodthirsty, just give us a nibble and the taste of blood. This heals for the same amount but also applies all major recovery buffs for 30sec.
4. Reduce the cost of the ultimate to 150 and allow us to keep ultimate gained while in form. If the later is impossible lower the cost further. Also decrease the cost of werewolf abilities by at least 20%
5. Make werewolf form punishable by death in cities. Justice system
6. Bloodrage also that grants both major evasion and major brutality when taking damage
7. Roar now costs magica and is an instant cast and fears 2 enemies. Rousing Roar now grants major savagery to all allies for 10 sec.
8. Increase base timer by 50%
9. Hercine's Rage now cost stamina, scales off stamina and weapon damage.
10. No stealth, but add detection range increase. (Master hunters right). Whenever I am fighting a nightblade I feel like someone just raised a stick up in the air yells FETCH then proceeds to fake me out as I run around looking for the stick.
What do these changes do for the werewolf?
Having a penalty to human form helps to define our characters, and makes the affliction more of a decision. Changing our devour, gives us another way to heal ourselves in combat and regen adds to our sustain. Adding evasion gives us a unique inactive way to decrease incoming damage. Changing Roar to cost magica and Hercine's Roar to stamina makes sense, as a true utility ability should not derive stats from your weakest resource, without taking too much away from magica inclined werewolves. As of now building up ultimate takes way too much time and when you transform you take too much time trying to eat, and stay in form to truly enjoy it. Let us transform and revert in a fight to suit our will, cheaper and refilling ultimate will make werewolf a really unique experience.
Your thoughts?
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS @ZOS_JessicaFolsom
PS @ZOS_BrianWheeler my werewolf is starving in regular Cyrodiil. I know you sacrificed the deer to the lag gods, Hercine is not happy.
Caius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA
4
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Lots of good points & ideas, but I just want to touch on this:9. Fear has a 1 sec cast time.
This one second cast time is the reason WW is good in PvP. Why, you might ask?
Well, with every other CC the case often is that your target simply CC breaks it immediately, before you deal damage.
With WW fear, you can immediately deal damage after the fear (since there is no global cooldown after cast times), meaning you can almost guarantee some huge damage after that roar.
Make it instant cast, and you run into same problem as with NB fear: targets simply CC break it before your GCD ends even.4 -
sabresandiego_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Good post. Like you said, the problem with werewolf in PVP is that the abilities are clunky and the werewolf has no range while having to completely expose itself in melee range. There are no real defensive moves for the werewolf besides rolls and block. Werewolf is basically a death trap, but it does do great damage when it lands.Ali Dreadsabre -Necromancer
Ali Sabre -Nightblade0 -
Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Lots of good points & ideas, but I just want to touch on this:9. Fear has a 1 sec cast time.
This one second cast time is the reason WW is good in PvP. Why, you might ask?
Well, with every other CC the case often is that your target simply CC breaks it immediately, before you deal damage.
With WW fear, you can immediately deal damage after the fear (since there is no global cooldown after cast times), meaning you can almost guarantee some huge damage after that roar.
Make it instant cast, and you run into same problem as with NB fear: targets simply CC break it before your GCD ends even.
Good point here, though I run issues of not being able to block cast this ability leaving you exposed to a sneak lethal arrow, wrecking blow, or inturruped completely by destro, bow, or bash. Just my opinion.Caius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA0 -
CP5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭This is a nice write-up of the problems that prevent werewolves from being used in pvp. I do have a quick question however. Do you think making Hircine's Rage cost stamina would leave most werewolves out of stamina at all times? As it is now werewolves have to rely on their heavy attacks to generate it and if their heal was stamina based that, in my opinion, would just leave them open to taking more damage and not having the resources needed to cc break, dodge or block.1 -
Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This is a nice write-up of the problems that prevent werewolves from being used in pvp. I do have a quick question however. Do you think making Hircine's Rage cost stamina would leave most werewolves out of stamina at all times? As it is now werewolves have to rely on their heavy attacks to generate it and if their heal was stamina based that, in my opinion, would just leave them open to taking more damage and not having the resources needed to cc break, dodge or block.
I see where this might be a concern, but by changing Roar to cost magica instead stamina, you have a more sustain draw on your smaller pool (no reason to spam fear). I've purposed only changing one morph (Hercine's rage) to scale off of stamina/weapon damage. Leaving the hot untouched.
I've also purposed major regen on devours, and decrease in cost of werewolf abilities by 20%. All of this should really overall help with the werewolf's sustain and longevity.Caius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA0 -
CP5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭This is a nice write-up of the problems that prevent werewolves from being used in pvp. I do have a quick question however. Do you think making Hircine's Rage cost stamina would leave most werewolves out of stamina at all times? As it is now werewolves have to rely on their heavy attacks to generate it and if their heal was stamina based that, in my opinion, would just leave them open to taking more damage and not having the resources needed to cc break, dodge or block.
I see where this might be a concern, but by changing Roar to cost magica instead stamina, you have a more sustain draw on your smaller pool (no reason to spam fear). I've purposed only changing one morph (Hercine's rage) to scale off of stamina/weapon damage. Leaving the hot untouched.
I've also purposed major regen on devours, and decrease in cost of werewolf abilities by 20%. All of this should really overall help with the werewolf's sustain and longevity.
With luck, the insane cost of ww skills is one of the reasons I see them as free ap in cryodiil, just burn them dry and laugh for the most part (both from fighting ww's and playing mine).0 -
Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@CP5 yea check it out sometime, the Werewolf abilities are no where in line with cost compared to other abilities in game. A big part comes from other weapon/skill lines cost less to begin with then gain a cost reduction passive later in the tree.Edited by Chrlynsch on August 2, 2015 7:18PMCaius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA0 -
CP5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@CP5 yea check it out sometime, the Werewolf abilities are no where in line with cost compared to other abilities in game. A big part comes from other weapon/skill lines cost less to begin with then gain a cost reduction passive later in the tree.
And they even reduced the stamina cost of class skills by 20% on pts as well. Hope they apply that change to ww's as well, otherwise with the cost increase of blocking and dodging werewolves won't have much stamina any more.0 -
Ace_SiN✭✭✭✭The Fix
1. Add poison weakness to human forum as well.
I just can't agree with this, but the rest of your post is pretty solid. The reason being the human form is mostly useless. The only way I would agree to this is if ZOS gave Werewolves more benefits while in Human form(while the ult is equipped, only to prevent another 1.6 meta situation).
So lets say:
1) Savage Strength - WW form: 18% weapon damage increase
Human form: 5% weapon damage increase
2) Pursuit - WW form: 100% stamina recovery from heavy attacks
Human form: 50% stamina recovery from heavy attacks
Though honestly I wish they would change pursuit to maybe a speed and detection range increase(or anything more useful than that waste of two points passive).King of Beasts1 -
dsalter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭the costs, transform cost and devour are the main issues that make WW non-viable. yes all the other points are good but those 3 are the sure indicator of what makes them bad.
the cost reduction for ulti transform being changed to 175 is abit OP, put it to 200 and it'll be fair.
increase time to 1minute, increase devour time additions as well as speed it up, lower all ability costs inline with 2hander costs and you have a pretty useful werewolf build thats viable in ptsPLEASE REPLY TO ME WITH @dsalter otherwise i'm likely to miss the reply if its not my own thread
EU - [Arch Mage Dave] Altmer Sorcerer
Fight back at the crates and boxes, together we can change things.2 -
Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The Fix
1. Add poison weakness to human forum as well.
I just can't agree with this, but the rest of your post is pretty solid. The reason being the human form is mostly useless. The only way I would agree to this is if ZOS gave Werewolves more benefits while in Human form(while the ult is equipped, only to prevent another 1.6 meta situation).
So lets say:
1) Savage Strength - WW form: 18% weapon damage increase
Human form: 5% weapon damage increase
2) Pursuit - WW form: 100% stamina recovery from heavy attacks
Human form: 50% stamina recovery from heavy attacks
Though honestly I wish they would change pursuit to maybe a speed and detection range increase(or anything more useful than that waste of two points passive).
Im on the other side of street on this one, I really don't think that werewolf's should have anything more then stamina regen Increase in human form. The 25% increase to poison damage isn't that bad... and with investing some champ points and a poison resist glyph you can negate this pretty easily.
My whole beef is having everyone remaining a werewolf with no reason to not cure themselves. Becoming and being a werewolf should be more hard of a decision. There is no reason for all the players that took WW for the free 15% to now get rid of it. Really they can stay recessive werewolves with no consequences.
Afflictions in ES have always been about tradeoffs. Could I slot a regen glyph and put a points into mooncalf instead of becoming a werewolf? Yup... but people should become werewolves because they want to be a werewolf not for numbers.
This is just my opinion of course.Edited by Chrlynsch on August 2, 2015 8:10PMCaius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA2 -
Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭the costs, transform cost and devour are the main issues that make WW non-viable. yes all the other points are good but those 3 are the sure indicator of what makes them bad.
the cost reduction for ulti transform being changed to 175 is abit OP, put it to 200 and it'll be fair.
increase time to 1minute, increase devour time additions as well as speed it up, lower all ability costs inline with 2hander costs and you have a pretty useful werewolf build thats viable in pts
Spot on, If they fixed those 3 things I think people'say enjoyment would increase 3 fold while in werewolf form.
Just curious, why would you think having a lower cost to the transformation would be considered OP?Caius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA0 -
dsalter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭the costs, transform cost and devour are the main issues that make WW non-viable. yes all the other points are good but those 3 are the sure indicator of what makes them bad.
the cost reduction for ulti transform being changed to 175 is abit OP, put it to 200 and it'll be fair.
increase time to 1minute, increase devour time additions as well as speed it up, lower all ability costs inline with 2hander costs and you have a pretty useful werewolf build thats viable in pts
Spot on, If they fixed those 3 things I think people'say enjoyment would increase 3 fold while in werewolf form.
Just curious, why would you think having a lower cost to the transformation would be considered OP?
175 is a pretty easy number to hit, 200-225 is a more balanced number as it takes longer as after all, WW form is ment to be the mighty transformation rather then spammable. so i'd leave the no ulti gen during transformation, set it to about 200 (180 or so for Sorcs, hence another reason 175 was to cheap, thats less than meteor) and give it all the other buffs, would become viable. top dog? no (heh punny) but definitly workable and useful. rather than an easy AP targetPLEASE REPLY TO ME WITH @dsalter otherwise i'm likely to miss the reply if its not my own thread
EU - [Arch Mage Dave] Altmer Sorcerer
Fight back at the crates and boxes, together we can change things.0 -
Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
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That sounds pretty good. Nothing crazy just a little extra something.Caius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA0 -
Jar_Ek✭✭✭✭✭Have to say that basic werewolf form does not feel at all ultimate in imperial city atm, I have better damage and survivability without reverting to a werewolf and have a useful ultimate slot freed up. These changes would go a way to resolving that, but without better stamina regen, all ww abilities scaling off the highest resource (cost can stay as is) and better survivability tools then I am not sure it will be viable (the op addresses the last of these).
Also have to agree that ww should have the stamina regen passive even w/o the transformation slotted, and have additional bonuses for the effect being slotted - but at the cost of vulnerability in human form.0 -
AlcastClass RepresentativeMaybe smth like that in Human form?
Weakness:
25% inc poison dmg
-25% magicka rec (for example)
Fighters Guild abilities do 33% inc dmg in Human form and 100% in WW form
Strengths:
While Ulti Slotted 15% Inc Stam Rec and 6% Inc Weapon dmg (to counter Flawl Dawnbr a bit AND a Human infected with WW should be stronger than the usual Human)
10% Inc Spell/Armor Resistances
25% Increased Detection radius to their improved Hunting skills
And in addition, the WW skill Roar is still kinda crap. The skill says "INSTANT" but the fear actually starts after 1s of the animation unlike the instant Mass Hysteria fear.https://alcasthq.com - Alcasthq.com Builds & Guides
https://eso-hub.com - ESO-Hub.com Sets, Skills, Guides & News
https://dwemerautomaton.com - Discord, Telegram & Twitch Command Bot0 -
Brasseurfb16_ESO✭✭✭✭Maybe smth like that in Human form?
Weakness:
25% inc poison dmg
-25% magicka rec (for example)
Fighters Guild abilities do 33% inc dmg in Human form and 100% in WW form
Strengths:
While Ulti Slotted 15% Inc Stam Rec and 6% Inc Weapon dmg (to counter Flawl Dawnbr a bit AND a Human infected with WW should be stronger than the usual Human)
10% Inc Spell/Armor Resistances
25% Increased Detection radius to their improved Hunting skills
And in addition, the WW skill Roar is still kinda crap. The skill says "INSTANT" but the fear actually starts after 1s of the animation unlike the instant Mass Hysteria fear.
And that one second cast is what allows the WW to use Howl of Agony, for massive burst, on its target before it even got time to break free.1 -
Uriel_Nocturne✭✭✭✭✭
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This is the only one I don't agree with.The Fix
5. Make werewolf form punishable by death in cities. Justice system
If Zeni changes this for Werewolves, then they'll change it for Vampires. If they change it for either species, cities will become "no-fly" zones.
Some of us (most of the Vampire population on all platforms) live entirely at Stage 4, and feeding isn't the most well-wrought system in the game.
In short, this change would actually ruin the game for people playing Werewolves and Vampires as cities would be all-but off limits.
The Justice system simply needs to stay as far away from Werewolves/Vampires as possible.
twitch.tv/vampire_nox
PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say no to Crown Crates!0 -
Kulvar✭✭✭✭I would totally love for people in werewolf form and vampire on the last vampirism stage to be chased by guards.
You're not supposed to walk on the market's place full of fur or deadly white with bloody eyes.
Until now... I fought it was the case and take care of not be seen by guards while it's the case.Coward Argonian scholar of the Ebonheart Pact0 -
Uriel_Nocturne✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Your opinion is your opinion, and that's fine.I would totally love for people in werewolf form and vampire on the last vampirism stage to be chased by guards.
You're not supposed to walk on the market's place full of fur or deadly white with bloody eyes.
Until now... I fought it was the case and take care of not be seen by guards while it's the case.
I completely disagree with your opinion, and that's fine as well.
But this should never be implemented in the game. It would chase more people away from the game than it would make happy, and really, what is it hurting?
twitch.tv/vampire_nox
PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say no to Crown Crates!0 -
Jar_Ek✭✭✭✭✭Thu transformed werewolves should be chased by the justice system. Vamps should have the equivalent of a bounty based on stage to determine if they are chased as they are harder to spot than a dirty great werewolf.0
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Uriel_Nocturne✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Why?Thu transformed werewolves should be chased by the justice system. Vamps should have the equivalent of a bounty based on stage to determine if they are chased as they are harder to spot than a dirty great werewolf.
Aside from ruining the fun of quite a large number of Gamers, what good would this do?
twitch.tv/vampire_nox
PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say no to Crown Crates!0 -
Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »
Why?Thu transformed werewolves should be chased by the justice system. Vamps should have the equivalent of a bounty based on stage to determine if they are chased as they are harder to spot than a dirty great werewolf.
Aside from ruining the fun of quite a large number of Gamers, what good would this do?
Vampires and werewolves are both abominations in tamriel, it would bring a different dynamic to the game. In elder scroll gamed vampires and werewolves have to operate in the shadows and out the public's eyes. Many elder scrolls gamers miss that and want it in eso. Adding it to the justice system adds flavor to the world skills and drawbacks not just in the numbers game.
Now that being said this would only be for being vampire stage 4 or in werewolf form within city limits... and only flagged by gaurds. Personally I think the time between stage 3 and 4 should be increased. If you are a vampire you need to be suckling blood to stay humanish and blend in, if your not you are suckling someone dry every once and a while everyone can tell you are an abomination and need to be purged.
All this does is add dimensions and depth to your character.Edited by Chrlynsch on August 4, 2015 8:28PMCaius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA1