Magicka Detonation

PBpsy · August 2015

How I think it should be in order to fulfill its supposedly intended purpose.:
Magicka Detonation: This ability now adds bonus damage for the amount of targets hit by it with 2.5% per target, up to a maximum of 500%.The skill is not affected by the Battle Spirit damage debuff,

Proximity Detonation (Magicka Detonation morph): This ability is now an instant cast. We also increased the detonation time to 8 seconds, and reduced the damage by 28% to compensate. This ability now has reduced damage based on the amount of allies in its radius ,by -5% per ally, up to a maximum of -100%. The negative amount is instantly subtracted from the caster's life on detonation and receives major defile debuff for 10s if >(-50%).

Tankqull · August 2015

i would say both should do arround 600(inevitable) and 1000(proxi) base dmg(before cyrdoiil debuff). wich then is doubled for each enemy hit up to 6 targets this would mean

one target hit = 500dmg (with debuff)
2 targest hit = 1000dmg each
3 = 2000
4 = 4000
5 = 8000
6+ = 16000 each

that way those skills would actally be blobbusters but not singeltarget nukes as they were supposed to be.

ToRelax · August 2015

Tankqull wrote: »

i would say both should do arround 600(inevitable) and 1000(proxi) base dmg(before cyrdoiil debuff). wich then is doubled for each enemy hit up to 6 targets this would mean

one target hit = 500dmg (with debuff)
2 targest hit = 1000dmg each
3 = 2000
4 = 4000
5 = 8000
6+ = 16000 each

that way those skills would actally be blobbusters but not singeltarget nukes as they were supposed to be.

Why shoul Proxy do more damage than Inevitable though? It's far easier to use now.

RoyJade · August 2015

I would like to see the damage for the base abilities and the two morph to be reduced by 50%, but with a +50% power for each enemies in the radius, or something like that.

PBpsy · August 2015

Tankqull wrote: »

i would say both should do arround 600(inevitable) and 1000(proxi) base dmg(before cyrdoiil debuff). wich then is doubled for each enemy hit up to 6 targets this would mean

one target hit = 500dmg (with debuff)
2 targest hit = 1000dmg each
3 = 2000
4 = 4000
5 = 8000
6+ = 16000 each

that way those skills would actally be blobbusters but not singeltarget nukes as they were supposed to be.

That could work but:
-it shouldn't be completely worthless for 1-3 target either
-it shouldn't be too punishing for small groups of ~4-6 , maximizing the damage at that point is a bit to much imo.
-It should be completely merciless on any stack of 12+ .

However the damage it does is not the biggest problem. The fact that it is the coolest Zerg toy since people invented staying really close to each other spaming AOEs and heals is the bigger problem. A damage reduction based on near allies could be interesting.

danno8 · August 2015

I think what people really want are a long series of 1v1's. Or at least that what these suggestions make it appear to want.

Instead of creating situations where one guy can wipe out 12 guys instantly we should instead be changing the skills that work to over-strengthen large groups.

Warhorn, Purge etc... should only affect 2 nearby allies, stuff like that.

We still want teamwork in Cyro right? You can't overly punish people wanting to play together or no one will play.

ToRelax · August 2015

danno8 wrote: »

I think what people really want are a long series of 1v1's. Or at least that what these suggestions make it appear to want.

Instead of creating situations where one guy can wipe out 12 guys instantly we should instead be changing the skills that work to over-strengthen large groups.

Warhorn, Purge etc... should only affect 2 nearby allies, stuff like that.

We still want teamwork in Cyro right? You can't overly punish people wanting to play together or no one will play.

How is spreading out = many 1v1s?
People shouldn't get punished for playing together. They don't need to get punished for stacking up either. But there needs to be a risk involved in that, not more safety!

Samadhi · August 2015

danno8 wrote: »

I think what people really want are a long series of 1v1's. Or at least that what these suggestions make it appear to want.

Instead of creating situations where one guy can wipe out 12 guys instantly we should instead be changing the skills that work to over-strengthen large groups.

Warhorn, Purge etc... should only affect 2 nearby allies, stuff like that.

We still want teamwork in Cyro right? You can't overly punish people wanting to play together or no one will play.

Having skills that do more damage to people stacked up in a small area lagging the server does not deter teamwork -- it deters people stacking up in a small area and lagging the server.

An idea where Magicka Detonation is highly rewarding to use against a group of people lagging the server, but not rewarding to use against people who are spread out or in a small group, certainly meets my approval.

It's not about wanting a series of 1v1s -- it's about wanting Cyrodiil performance to get back to how it was before people realized that ZOS made stacking as many people into on spot the most effective way to play, even if it comes at the cost of server performance.

Illumous · August 2015

25% max increase to damage isn't going to stop zerg trains Zeni, the cap should be AT LEAST 100% additional damage (even that is low).

If the worry is that it will hit small groups too hard, have it scale exponentially like this maybe...

For example:
2-3 Targets: +6.25% damage
4-5 Targets: +12.5% damage
6-7 Targets: +25% damage
8-12 Targets: +50% damage
12+ Targets: +100% damage

That seems fair to me.

danno8 · August 2015

I just can't get behind an idea that would allow one person the ability to one-shot an entire group just because they are standing together.

This would also make it impossible to actually get though choke points. Can't go through one by one or you get picked off, can't go through as a group or you all get destroyed by 1-2 people who have PD on their bars.

Again, I think reducing the effectiveness of group buffing AoE so they don't affect so many people around you is a more natural way of making people split into smaller groups, rather than trying to brute force it with spells that do even more AoE damage to even more people!

danno8 · August 2015

ToRelax wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

I think what people really want are a long series of 1v1's. Or at least that what these suggestions make it appear to want.

Instead of creating situations where one guy can wipe out 12 guys instantly we should instead be changing the skills that work to over-strengthen large groups.

Warhorn, Purge etc... should only affect 2 nearby allies, stuff like that.

We still want teamwork in Cyro right? You can't overly punish people wanting to play together or no one will play.

How is spreading out = many 1v1s?
People shouldn't get punished for playing together. They don't need to get punished for stacking up either. But there needs to be a risk involved in that, not more safety!

I agree their should be risk in it, and there is risk right now, but there is also so much reward due to AoE buffing and healing. THAT is the part that needs tweaking.

asneakybanana · August 2015

Tankqull wrote: »

i would say both should do arround 600(inevitable) and 1000(proxi) base dmg(before cyrdoiil debuff). wich then is doubled for each enemy hit up to 6 targets this would mean

one target hit = 500dmg (with debuff)
2 targest hit = 1000dmg each
3 = 2000
4 = 4000
5 = 8000
6+ = 16000 each

that way those skills would actally be blobbusters but not singeltarget nukes as they were supposed to be.

I think it should increase exponentially based on # of groups hit.
1-4: 2000
5-8: 3500
9-12: 6000
13-16: 10000
17+: 16000

This way it encourages groups of up to 12 to play tight and organized but makes it so that if you hit 4 or 5 or more groups of enemies it will do some serious damage which will be tough to heal and mitigate through but when you have 24 people all doing the exact right thing is possible.

PBpsy · August 2015

danno8 wrote: »

I think what people really want are a long series of 1v1's. Or at least that what these suggestions make it appear to want.

I would certainly want that.It sounds amazing.

danno8 wrote: »

We still want teamwork in Cyro right? You can't overly punish people wanting to play together or no one will play.

Ok so team work means runing with a 12-24 player group staked in 4m^2.
Team work can also mean a very large group spread strategically over a large area. An example of such a group : some exposed sturdy tank players on the outskirts, some less exposed ranged/healers/support guys some distance from them and finally some opportunistic gankers even further away awaiting to strike at the right moment. You could get a 24 player group like this performing team work without ever actually being in danger to be caught in a proxi det range.

Tankqull · August 2015

ToRelax wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

i would say both should do arround 600(inevitable) and 1000(proxi) base dmg(before cyrdoiil debuff). wich then is doubled for each enemy hit up to 6 targets this would mean

one target hit = 500dmg (with debuff)
2 targest hit = 1000dmg each
3 = 2000
4 = 4000
5 = 8000
6+ = 16000 each

that way those skills would actally be blobbusters but not singeltarget nukes as they were supposed to be.

Why shoul Proxy do more damage than Inevitable though? It's far easier to use now.

because you cant cast it continiously on multiple targets to have one detonation every two seconds.

PBpsy wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

i would say both should do arround 600(inevitable) and 1000(proxi) base dmg(before cyrdoiil debuff). wich then is doubled for each enemy hit up to 6 targets this would mean

one target hit = 500dmg (with debuff)
2 targest hit = 1000dmg each
3 = 2000
4 = 4000
5 = 8000
6+ = 16000 each

that way those skills would actally be blobbusters but not singeltarget nukes as they were supposed to be.

That could work but:
-it shouldn't be completely worthless for 1-3 target either
-it shouldn't be too punishing for small groups of ~4-6 , maxing the damage at that point is a bit to much imo.
-It should be completely merciless on any stack of 12+ .

However the damage it does is not the biggest problem. The fact that it is the coolest Zerg toy since people invented staying really close to each other spaming AOEs and heals is the bigger problem. A damage reduction based on near allies could be interesting.

the numbers were just an attempt to display my idea and could easily be modified.

Septimus_Magna · August 2015

The max of 5 person damage scale is not very smart, this will only make it easier for big groups to wipe small groups because the big groups proxy deto's do the same damage but they have people using it.

The damage needs to scale up to at least 15-20 players, this will disencourage big zergs because 4 magicka NBs can wipe them with a well timed proxy deto attack.

If proxy deto is intened to be the zerg buster skill make it so small groups have an advantage over a large group, not the other way around...

Master_Kas · August 2015

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

The max of 5 person damage scale is not very smart, this will only make it easier for big groups to wipe small groups because the big groups proxy deto's do the same damage but they have people using it.

The damage needs to scale up to at least 15-20 players, this will disencourage big zergs because 4 magicka NBs can wipe them with a well timed proxy deto attack.

If proxy deto is intened to be the zerg buster skill make it so small groups have an advantage over a large group, not the other way around...

I second thissssssss

olsborg · August 2015

Inevitable det should incr dmg much more per target hit to be a viable zerbuster skill

Sublime · August 2015

I fully agree that there should be a bigger difference between the single target and multiple target damage. However, I do not know how I would implement this in a way that doesn't have a major effect on PvE, because if the damage scales too high all fights with a large amount of mobs would become too easy. I assume that ZOS does not have a way that would enable the Battle Spirit buff to affect a single skill.

Tankqull · August 2015

Sublime wrote: »

I fully agree that there should be a bigger difference between the single target and multiple target damage. However, I do not know how I would implement this in a way that doesn't have a major effect on PvE, because if the damage scales too high all fights with a large amount of mobs would become too easy. I assume that ZOS does not have a way that would enable the Battle Spirit buff to affect a single skill.

as they do have mob/player check within their code restrict the dmg increasing parameter to players only.

eliisra · August 2015

Can anyone confirm or deny if Detonation is moved to Assault level 10? I've been hearing rumours about it and that would change things.

But the new dmg scaling of 5+ targets is madness tho. It's zerg buffer ffs lol. Penalizes small groups so hard. Groups already struggling and outnumbered. This while your average lag blob is completely unaffected by the change. They can facetank and outheal, like they do today.

Septimus_Magna · August 2015

Sublime wrote: »

I fully agree that there should be a bigger difference between the single target and multiple target damage. However, I do not know how I would implement this in a way that doesn't have a major effect on PvE, because if the damage scales too high all fights with a large amount of mobs would become too easy. I assume that ZOS does not have a way that would enable the Battle Spirit buff to affect a single skill.

True without a doubt, it could be worked in the description to make it only affect other players.
Similar to the exception on the stun to players from Ambush.

So damage increases by 5% for each player hit to maximum of 75% for example.

Edit: I see that Tankqull suggested same thing, good stuff!

ToRelax · August 2015

Tankqull wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

i would say both should do arround 600(inevitable) and 1000(proxi) base dmg(before cyrdoiil debuff). wich then is doubled for each enemy hit up to 6 targets this would mean

one target hit = 500dmg (with debuff)
2 targest hit = 1000dmg each
3 = 2000
4 = 4000
5 = 8000
6+ = 16000 each

that way those skills would actally be blobbusters but not singeltarget nukes as they were supposed to be.

Why shoul Proxy do more damage than Inevitable though? It's far easier to use now.

because you cant cast it continiously on multiple targets to have one detonation every two seconds.
[...]

If a group to that the detonation would actually be dangerous, let's me cast this a few times in a row, they deserve to wipe.
Besides that, 2 seconds is a lot of healing for a large group.

danno8 · August 2015

eliisra wrote: »

But the new dmg scaling of 5+ targets is madness tho. It's zerg buffer ffs lol. Penalizes small groups so hard. Groups already struggling and outnumbered. This while your average lag blob is completely unaffected by the change. They can facetank and outheal, like they do today.

Exactly, and the reason larger groups are so strong is because of AoE healing/Warhorn/Charging Maneuver/Purge affecting so many targets.

If you cap the targets for support/healing skills to 4-6 you immediately make it less efficient to stack more than that number, which encourages groups to break up in to smaller groups. Offensive skills can remain uncapped.

The solution to so much current AoE is not new, even more powerful AoE.

ToRelax · August 2015

danno8 wrote: »

eliisra wrote: »

But the new dmg scaling of 5+ targets is madness tho. It's zerg buffer ffs lol. Penalizes small groups so hard. Groups already struggling and outnumbered. This while your average lag blob is completely unaffected by the change. They can facetank and outheal, like they do today.

Exactly, and the reason larger groups are so strong is because of AoE healing/Warhorn/Charging Maneuver/Purge affecting so many targets.

If you cap the targets for support/healing skills to 4-6 you immediately make it less efficient to stack more than that number, which encourages groups to break up in to smaller groups. Offensive skills can remain uncapped.

The solution to so much current AoE is not new, even more powerful AoE.

They wouldn't spread out because of such a change alone - the healing mechanics are so easy and favour large groups with everything being smart or AoE heals.