Do you agree with the ZoS putting a Cap on Champion Points per DLC?

Waffennacht · August 2015

No, I earned all my CP and want to use them

Its really starting to bother me the amount of people whom hate on others because they enjoy the product they paid money for, for long periods of time.

So you can't play as much as them, too bad. I hardly get to play anymore and drool at the ideas of playing for 8 hours at a time again. But because I can't I in no way would want to hamper other's enjoyment.

If you cap it, if you change this games higher ends, then you destroy the incentive to play. This isn't a single player game, this online only, making replay very close to worthless.

I know if I had nothing left to strive for in on online game, I would stop playing and probably never come back as a new game would fit my fancy.

If im down to PvP only, ill play CoD.

So what if there is a small percentage of players you can't reach? Oh no you died! The world isn't over, go to a different location.

Finally a game is created that has just about everything I want and everyone wants to turn it into another common game.

timidobserver · August 2015

Yes, It will allow others to catch up.

Gidorick wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I really want to say leave it uncapped, but it just isn't working like that. I really like the Champion System, but as it is just poorly designed. Even if they move caps per DLC, the power levels are going to be really bad in another year or 2. The only way the system will work long term is if they a few things.

1. Apply the caps per DLC.
2. Every quarter, do a database query and get the average CP level of all players that have unlocked the CP system, and then significantly increase the CP gain of anyone below that average. I would make the boost slide based on how close they are to the average. For example 600% if you are 700 below the average, 400% if you are 500 below the average, ect.
3. Decrease the stats earned by spending champion points a bit.
4. Disable champion point bonuses on non-vet servers.

The issue I have with this is it involved continued maintenance. They need to implement a system that is self sustaining and regulating. Everyone throws a fit when I suggest they add something because there are "more important things to fix" well, I want ZOS to be working on something else rather than having a quarterly chore to maintain the CP boosts.

The CP fix really should be something that is hands off for ZOS after initial implementation... but I know it probably won't be.

They could make this hands off by just coding what I've suggested. Some kind of a script that gets an average from the database and sets the bonus CP gain. It could run automatically at certain intervals.

Caspur · August 2015

No, I earned all my CP and want to use them

Waffennacht wrote: »

I know if I had nothing left to strive for in on online game, I would stop playing and probably never come back as a new game would fit my fancy.

If im down to PvP only, ill play CoD.

So what if there is a small percentage of players you can't reach? Oh no you died! The world isn't over, go to a different location.

Finally a game is created that has just about everything I want and everyone wants to turn it into another common game.

I couldn't agree more. Everyone wants this to be another cookie cutter MMO. There are literally hundreds of other games out there where you can be exactly as good as every other player when you reach the CAP.

I, like you, would lose all incentive to play if/when I hit the caps if they were ever implemented.

I hope ZOS aren't even considering this.

Celas_Dranacea · August 2015

Yes, It will allow others to catch up.

We don't need an elite class off grinders 2x as powerful. Folks can get more powerful with gear and skill already

Sord · August 2015

Ok so in 1-2 years when the cap is back at 3600 CP we are right back here, new players are still going to be way behind. The real solution isn't in caps but in simply lowering the bonus you get from each benefit. There still will be a benefit and a progression, but having 1000 more CP won't be as big a deal if you actually just cut the active abilities from a max of 25% to a max of 12.5%. The whole reason they added a "0" to all our stats is so when you get a smaller percentage bonus you could see it well make the CP system a smaller bonus and we will still see it and those with more CP will still have an advantage but it won't give such a large gap between players.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Caspur · August 2015

No, I earned all my CP and want to use them

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

We don't need an elite class off grinders 2x as powerful. Folks can get more powerful with gear and skill already

Yes but, you can only get to a certain point before you get cut off and can no longer get any better. And at that point every other player can catch up to you and then you're just another ordinary player and there's nothing special about you.

7788b14_ESO · August 2015

Sord wrote: »

Ok so in 1-2 years when the cap is back at 3600 CP we are right back here, new players are still going to be way behind. The real solution isn't in caps but in simply lowering the bonus you get from each benefit. There still will be a benefit and a progression, but having 1000 more CP won't be as big a deal if you actually just cut the active abilities from a max of 25% to a max of 12.5%. The whole reason they added a "0" to all our stats is so when you get a smaller percentage bonus you could see it well make the CP system a smaller bonus and we will still see it and those with more CP will still have an advantage but it won't give such a large gap between players.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

This is really no different then level 20 players going up against level 100 players in other games. Many games make leveling in general a little easier so the level 20 can reach 100 faster if they really want to, and they make higher leveling a bit slower, and they add buffs to even out players more in pvp. They really should separate pve from pvp issues.

So add additional cp buffs that are stronger at low levels and slow higher cp progression a little more and make the buffs between different levels a little better, lower levels will still die going up against higher levels, it will just be harder to kill them. Let players who have reached cp cap still earn cp, it just won't be applied until the cap is raised if it isn't at the next cap level.

It seems most games are designed to make players average. Anytime a player comes up with a powerful build instead of being rewarded for their work, they get the nurf bat as a reward. Anyone who realized that the more cp you have the better you play, for their hard work will get nurfed. Most games really don't want exceptional players who outdo the pack. They want average players. They also care little about low level players except for games that let players who have already done content have the option to skip some it. IMO.

Gidorick · August 2015

timidobserver wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I really want to say leave it uncapped, but it just isn't working like that. I really like the Champion System, but as it is just poorly designed. Even if they move caps per DLC, the power levels are going to be really bad in another year or 2. The only way the system will work long term is if they a few things.

1. Apply the caps per DLC.
2. Every quarter, do a database query and get the average CP level of all players that have unlocked the CP system, and then significantly increase the CP gain of anyone below that average. I would make the boost slide based on how close they are to the average. For example 600% if you are 700 below the average, 400% if you are 500 below the average, ect.
3. Decrease the stats earned by spending champion points a bit.
4. Disable champion point bonuses on non-vet servers.

The issue I have with this is it involved continued maintenance. They need to implement a system that is self sustaining and regulating. Everyone throws a fit when I suggest they add something because there are "more important things to fix" well, I want ZOS to be working on something else rather than having a quarterly chore to maintain the CP boosts.

The CP fix really should be something that is hands off for ZOS after initial implementation... but I know it probably won't be.

They could make this hands off by just coding what I've suggested. Some kind of a script that gets an average from the database and sets the bonus CP gain. It could run automatically at certain intervals.

AH. Gotcha. For some reason when I read what you suggested I envisioned someone physically running queries and applying the boosts. Of course that can be done automatically... even on a time table. duh.

Lloyd0 · August 2015

No, I earned all my CP and want to use them

I think capping it is a good way to kill replay value....aside from pledges not much real reason to play aside from earning CP. I think increasing required EXP for higher champion points every 100 or so (just an example) would still allow players to keep progressing while allowing others to catch up. A cap fix I feel would I feel benefit the casual player to much. I myself fall into that category but the idea to have a concept that appeals to all. This way casuals can still play and be relevant, the more hardcore players can still find stuff to do. Maybe even a enlightenment boost of around 2 levels for people under 100, 1 level for people after that...and at 200 stopping with it altogether.

ssewallb14_ESO · August 2015

Yes, It will allow others to catch up.

I would go as far at to CP cap specific content. Old vet dungeons at ~70 for example.

technohic · August 2015

No, I earned all my CP and want to use them

Caspur wrote: »

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

We don't need an elite class off grinders 2x as powerful. Folks can get more powerful with gear and skill already

Yes but, you can only get to a certain point before you get cut off and can no longer get any better. And at that point every other player can catch up to you and then you're just another ordinary player and there's nothing special about you.

What should be special about you should be you're a better player.

Iluvrien · August 2015

No, I earned all my CP and want to use them

I have finally managed to read all 6 pages of this thread (so far) and have seen some pretty interesting views.

I have to specify, up front, that I come from a pretty specific place: I am PvE only, I spend my time crafting, exploring, running the occasional dungeon with guildmates and questing. This means that my opinions are coming from someone who has no interest in the competitive aspects of this game whatsoever.

This is not my first MMORPG. I have taken part in PvP and Raiding in the past. I no longer have any desire to do so, and have never done so on this MMORPG.

That said, I don't think there should be a per-DLC cap. You have been getting idiots who will merrily skip over content to grind out a bonus to their stats/gear, no matter how tiny, since these games were text based. In fact the first game I played online (which was text based, hello Discworld MUD circa. 1997) implemented a skills cut to handle just that kind of situation. Everyone's skills were scaled according to a curve based on the highest values anyone had achieved. It was horrendous and killed most of the interest I had in the game (although I stayed for a while for the people).

That may be one reason why I am in favour of letting people have access to what they have earned, as long as they have actually earned it and haven't exploited/bug-abused their way through. I think that to do otherwise is a little too divisive. I also don't believe that situations where newbies get whaled on by no-lifers is much fun either.

Based on the suggestions I have seen in this thread, I would love ZOS to implement the following:

1. Leave CP entirely alone for non-Competitive PvE.
2. Create zero CP (entirely skill based) and CP inclusive (skill and progression) leaderboards for competitive PvE
3. Create zero CP and CP inclusive PvP

The reason I support 2 & 3 is on the basis that anyone who either wants to go pure-skill or doesn't feel like they have enough CP to play with/against those who may have done a lot of grinding since day one of Champion System release can do so without getting continuously munched. Those who want more risk, or now feel like theu have enough progression to survive can take part in the inclusive systems.

Either way it is a choice and in making that choice a player is choosing their own conditions of play... not having them imposed by ZOS by way of a seasonal CP cap.

...

Oh, and the suggestion that the CP system should impose limits based on branching choices to do with class/role/build? I couldn't disagree more with that. I believe that we already have too many limits. I have no desire to see even more.

Fetaro · August 2015

Kinda, If you can still earn CP even-though you wont be able to always to use all of them.

It won't solve anything.

In two years, the gap will be worse. New players will whine, you'll have to find another solution.

Just stick with the gain bonus, or you'll end up in a whining loop.

RDMyers65b14_ESO · August 2015

The cap would be a good temporary solution. Perhaps the best way would be to rework the diminishing bonuses and decrease the bonus more as more points are spent. Maybe after you have spent 30 points in a sign, the next bonus would only raise your bonus 0.01% instead of 0.5%. At 60 points, it drops to 0.001%. People could still grind to their hearts content all they want, but it would not give them the unreasonable advantage that they have now.

Let say at 30 points, you have a maximum of 5% bonus. With this type of return, at 60 points in one sign , you would have only 5.3%. Yes,I know that there are four stars per sign, but it is unlikely that the people are spreading their points in all four skills in the sign. Most likely, they are only utilizing one of the four.

This could likely be done behind the scenes with no problems as it would not take away the points that have been earned, just fixed the problem with the grinders. We have all known that the Champion System is diminishing returns, just decrease the return greater.

Caspur · August 2015

No, I earned all my CP and want to use them

technohic wrote: »

Caspur wrote: »

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

We don't need an elite class off grinders 2x as powerful. Folks can get more powerful with gear and skill already

Yes but, you can only get to a certain point before you get cut off and can no longer get any better. And at that point every other player can catch up to you and then you're just another ordinary player and there's nothing special about you.

What should be special about you should be you're a better player.

It's not possible to be a better player when someone else has:

1. You're exact same gear
2. Are at your exact same level
3. Same Glyphs
4. Same abilities

And this is exactly what happens with CAPS. Most top players have cookie cutter builds that they copied from Youtube videos and in these videos they tell you exactly what gear to use with what glyphs to use and what abilities to use. So you and 99% of other max level players are running around and the only difference is the class that you're using.

How are you supposed to stand out or be a better player when you're a DK and the 10 other DKs running next to you are all exact duplicates. More often than not it comes down to luck with CAPS.

Waffennacht · August 2015

No, I earned all my CP and want to use them

With caps it becomes rock paper scissors. The best idea so far is the CP enabled Pvp and a non CP enabled PvP.

That way you can PvP and level up and then move into the CP based if desired. (I would love also a free for all server where any level etc can face off)

I really dont mind being whooped. As im usually really good, so I enjoy finding someone better. I learn, adapt, and grow. Just facing someone weaker or same strength doesn't grow you like facing a stronger opponent.

I was surprised at the current PvP server, where I lvl 34 faced a lvl 12. I was more than willing to let him run, but he was determined to try his luck against me. I commended his spirit, also got a good chuckle out of watching him roll and run all around me attacking.

Also, im under the assumption we have new players coming in all the time and have old players making new characters. Im thinking the number of uber players is lower than not.

technohic · August 2015

No, I earned all my CP and want to use them

Caspur wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Caspur wrote: »

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

We don't need an elite class off grinders 2x as powerful. Folks can get more powerful with gear and skill already

Yes but, you can only get to a certain point before you get cut off and can no longer get any better. And at that point every other player can catch up to you and then you're just another ordinary player and there's nothing special about you.

What should be special about you should be you're a better player.

It's not possible to be a better player when someone else has:

1. You're exact same gear
2. Are at your exact same level
3. Same Glyphs
4. Same abilities

And this is exactly what happens with CAPS. Most top players have cookie cutter builds that they copied from Youtube videos and in these videos they tell you exactly what gear to use with what glyphs to use and what abilities to use. So you and 99% of other max level players are running around and the only difference is the class that you're using.

How are you supposed to stand out or be a better player when you're a DK and the 10 other DKs running next to you are all exact duplicates. More often than not it comes down to luck with CAPS.

I don't know. Coming from a Templar perspective, I have seen Rendolf, Blabafat and the ebonheart templar guy post their builds and videos of what they can do, and of course people try to copy it, but I have never seen any of the clones be nearly as good.

I imagine there are a lot of people trying to be Sypher as well. Its not their gear or builds that do it. All were known about before the Champion system. Its more them knowing what they are doing in the environment for movement and positioning.

If you need more than player skill to be special, you really are not that special to begin with.

RavenSkylord · August 2015

No, I earned all my CP and want to use them

As someone who currently sits at 41CP I don't see the logic in capping them, as is there is an achievement for having 1200 cp in any of the three areas which comes out to 3600 cp for all three achievements, putting a cap would be basically saying here are the achievements you can't have.

Would make more sense to rework the champion trees with more options and harder caps on individual stat bonuses, limit the number of points you can spend there whike increasing overall selection. For example have points to spend on improving crafting, and could also unlock new abilities and spells by spending cp points to unlock. Say 20 cp would unlock an invisibilty spell, or a large aoe fire rain spell or something to that effect

jeremiah911 · August 2015

I only have 50 Champion points and I think a cap is a bad idea. Not only will a cap give me reason not to play as often (so I don't reach the cap) but it also influence my decision into buying XP scrolls. Why spend money on something I can't use due to the restrictions of a cap? Just my two cents.

Caspur · August 2015

No, I earned all my CP and want to use them

technohic wrote: »

I don't know. Coming from a Templar perspective, I have seen Rendolf, Blabafat and the ebonheart templar guy post their builds and videos of what they can do, and of course people try to copy it, but I have never seen any of the clones be nearly as good.

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it does not happen. There are people who use builds, such as Syphers' who are just as good as he is but, they don't have YouTube channels so no one knows their names.

technohic wrote: »

If you need more than player skill to be special, you really are not that special to begin with.

That's your opinion. You are also talking, like many others who want a CAP, strictly about PvP play. While others, like myself, are talking about the game as a whole (PvE and PvP).

I agree that there should be campaigns where CPs are not used and other campaigns where they are used but, I also believe that if you put the time into the game, especially on the PvE side of it, that you should continue to get rewarded.

Attorneyatlawl · August 2015

Soulshine wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

lance_lindbergub17_ESO wrote: »

CP is primarily a problem for PVP. There's a much easier solution than capping it for everyone, give PVP players a choice, by making a campaign that uses CP, and one that does not. Simple.

If I want CP points to count in PVP , I join the campaign that incorporates CP.
If I don't want CP points involved in PVP, I join the campaign that ignores them.

CP has an (smaller) impact on PVE. Instead of capping it for everyone, give PVE players a choice, to use CP/not for ranked content.

If I want to run VDSA using CP, I choose to do so and am ranked with others using CP
If I want to run VDSA without CP, I choose to do so, and am ranked with others ignoring CP

CP does NOT "primarily" affect PvP. It impacts every aspect of play and completely trivializes it to the point of making it irrelevant to the Godmode options it renders for players. You put in a system which allows for essentially infinite progression into all possible passives and then sit back and watch PvE challenge go completely out the window (already happened) and class balance - such as it was anyway even before CP... - totally irrelevant.

The system design at core was flawed from the get go and is not conducive to meaningful choices let alone in harmony with that concept, and in fact is a departure from it in the wost way. Considering the massive litany of rationlizations for the 5 skill action bar alone, you would think someone on the dev team would have realized that allowing for everything to get maxed for every stat, would not be a smart let alone sustainable system in an MMO.

Then the problem is not CP but lack of content scaled up to people with that much CP?

Have you ever thought that people who grinded CP might enjoy the fact that now everything is easy? Have you thought they might have done this on purpose? That they like it when their character gets stronger?

Have you ever played with a progression raiding guild? Have you ever played with a dedicated hardcore PvP guild? Have you ever thought that those people do NOT enjoying facerolling content by just lamblasting past all mechanics because the DPS, shields, blocking, etc. is so over the top? There have already been umpteen threads posted about this as far back as the earliest rounds of PTS testing of CP system.

We are also not talking about getting "stronger" here. The CP system allows for ALL stats to be completly maxed out and all possible combat passives as well -- regardless of your build, your role, or yoour skill at playing.

Players in every single MMO I have ever played also always outpace the rate at which content is delivered. You cannot put in a system like this one as just say the solution is that well we just need to have more content scaled up.

(Cliff notes/tl;dr section at the end of this post.)

I'm in a progression raiding guild now, and have played with dedicated hardcore PvP guilds, both in ESO and other games. Hoping soon to join up with a hardcore PvP one (to be continued...

) again here.

Here's the interesting thing about allowing for character strength to grow beyond the content: limit it enough so that it isn't overwhelmingly powerful to where the content is like sleepwalking, and it doesn't make it "easier" or trivialize it. It alters it. Some of the best leaderboard-scoring strategies, lately, have involved leveraging those points to do complete the Trials/Veteran Dragonstar Arena, while still killing everything, that would be difficult or impossible otherwise including concepts like split groups even mid-pull. This doesn't result in it being easier... but rather, different, and on the edge cases where it's only just above the mark of being practically possible, it actually becomes harder to pull off.

@MaximusDargo additionally brought up a pretty good point, as far as individual progression. I've posted more than a bit before, about the champion system, its power gap potential (or lack thereof, depending on your opinion), and leveling speeds between different game activities. One of the reasons I basically had stopped posting about PVP and PVE XP parity even in a thread directed at @ZOS_BrianWheeler, was that I realized something: "Maybe those mobs, in the massive Imperial City sewers I'd seen @Dominoid's datamined maps of, provide good XP, enough so that it's worth the risk to kill them for currency as well as leveling, with the risk of PVP attackers and mixing up the action in gameplay! That might be why they aren't mentioning much about really and definitely looking into raising the XP from player kills directly?"

I think that turned out to be the case! The sewers mobs I've been killing packs of so far, give around 1255 champion XP/regular XP without enlightenment, when not subscribed to ESO Plus but using a crafted Psijic Ambrosia drink on the Imperial City 2.1 PTS. Is that going to be enough to bridge the parity gap? Not necessarily. But, it may bring it close enough along with the whole idea of a rolling cap average as @Gidorick's been advocating for, that it overall becomes a non-issue in the practical sense when playing. Hop in a duo or trio and rampage through which makes the killing much easier and more reliable along with giving you better odds when enemy players inevitably jump on you to go for a fight, and it's a very fun & varied source of XP gain, Tel Var stones, and AP!

CLIFF NOTES: So basically, to sum up my mini-wall of text here, I'm thinking that:
-The rolling cap average idea (taking into account server processing load, it would have its effect almost entirely the same way by doing it once a day at an off-peak time, for the boost) that scales based on your current champion rank vs. the top ten or so percent's, granting you more Enlightenment on your daily tick based upon how big the difference is (remember, Enlightenment causes you to earn champion points at quadruple the speed you do when you aren't Enlightened).
-The Imperial City may have already hit the answer, if that were implemented, as far as making up the rest of the parity gap in PVE/PVP. I'm sure most people can relate: if you have Enlightenment, it really doesn't feel like it takes long to grab a champion level. Therefore, even in PVE activity that doesn't give as much insane XP as solely focusing on your earnings per hour, you still would be progressing at a nice rate then.

Attorneyatlawl · August 2015

timidobserver wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I really want to say leave it uncapped, but it just isn't working like that. I really like the Champion System, but as it is just poorly designed. Even if they move caps per DLC, the power levels are going to be really bad in another year or 2. The only way the system will work long term is if they a few things.

1. Apply the caps per DLC.
2. Every quarter, do a database query and get the average CP level of all players that have unlocked the CP system, and then significantly increase the CP gain of anyone below that average. I would make the boost slide based on how close they are to the average. For example 600% if you are 700 below the average, 400% if you are 500 below the average, ect.
3. Decrease the stats earned by spending champion points a bit.
4. Disable champion point bonuses on non-vet servers.

The issue I have with this is it involved continued maintenance. They need to implement a system that is self sustaining and regulating. Everyone throws a fit when I suggest they add something because there are "more important things to fix" well, I want ZOS to be working on something else rather than having a quarterly chore to maintain the CP boosts.

The CP fix really should be something that is hands off for ZOS after initial implementation... but I know it probably won't be.

They could make this hands off by just coding what I've suggested. Some kind of a script that gets an average from the database and sets the bonus CP gain. It could run automatically at certain intervals.

I agree, as you can see in this link. It's also important, however, to have it run much more often than that, as well as not requiring constant dev attention and time as @Gidorick mentioned, to make it work well.

technohic · August 2015

No, I earned all my CP and want to use them

Caspur wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

I don't know. Coming from a Templar perspective, I have seen Rendolf, Blabafat and the ebonheart templar guy post their builds and videos of what they can do, and of course people try to copy it, but I have never seen any of the clones be nearly as good.

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it does not happen. There are people who use builds, such as Syphers' who are just as good as he is but, they don't have YouTube channels so no one knows their names.

technohic wrote: »

If you need more than player skill to be special, you really are not that special to begin with.

That's your opinion. You are also talking, like many others who want a CAP, strictly about PvP play. While others, like myself, are talking about the game as a whole (PvE and PvP).

I agree that there should be campaigns where CPs are not used and other campaigns where they are used but, I also believe that if you put the time into the game, especially on the PvE side of it, that you should continue to get rewarded.

Well I can agree with the last part. I'm not for a cap, I just don't think the CPs are what would make a player special. Particularly one that plays a lot and knows the mechanics and their class.

Soulshine · August 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

lance_lindbergub17_ESO wrote: »

CP is primarily a problem for PVP. There's a much easier solution than capping it for everyone, give PVP players a choice, by making a campaign that uses CP, and one that does not. Simple.

If I want CP points to count in PVP , I join the campaign that incorporates CP.
If I don't want CP points involved in PVP, I join the campaign that ignores them.

CP has an (smaller) impact on PVE. Instead of capping it for everyone, give PVE players a choice, to use CP/not for ranked content.

If I want to run VDSA using CP, I choose to do so and am ranked with others using CP
If I want to run VDSA without CP, I choose to do so, and am ranked with others ignoring CP

CP does NOT "primarily" affect PvP. It impacts every aspect of play and completely trivializes it to the point of making it irrelevant to the Godmode options it renders for players. You put in a system which allows for essentially infinite progression into all possible passives and then sit back and watch PvE challenge go completely out the window (already happened) and class balance - such as it was anyway even before CP... - totally irrelevant.

The system design at core was flawed from the get go and is not conducive to meaningful choices let alone in harmony with that concept, and in fact is a departure from it in the wost way. Considering the massive litany of rationlizations for the 5 skill action bar alone, you would think someone on the dev team would have realized that allowing for everything to get maxed for every stat, would not be a smart let alone sustainable system in an MMO.

Then the problem is not CP but lack of content scaled up to people with that much CP?

Have you ever thought that people who grinded CP might enjoy the fact that now everything is easy? Have you thought they might have done this on purpose? That they like it when their character gets stronger?

Have you ever played with a progression raiding guild? Have you ever played with a dedicated hardcore PvP guild? Have you ever thought that those people do NOT enjoying facerolling content by just lamblasting past all mechanics because the DPS, shields, blocking, etc. is so over the top? There have already been umpteen threads posted about this as far back as the earliest rounds of PTS testing of CP system.

We are also not talking about getting "stronger" here. The CP system allows for ALL stats to be completly maxed out and all possible combat passives as well -- regardless of your build, your role, or yoour skill at playing.

Players in every single MMO I have ever played also always outpace the rate at which content is delivered. You cannot put in a system like this one as just say the solution is that well we just need to have more content scaled up.

(Cliff notes/tl;dr section at the end of this post.)

I'm in a progression raiding guild now, and have played with dedicated hardcore PvP guilds, both in ESO and other games. Hoping soon to join up with a hardcore PvP one (to be continued... ) again here.

Here's the interesting thing about allowing for character strength to grow beyond the content: limit it enough so that it isn't overwhelmingly powerful to where the content is like sleepwalking, and it doesn't make it "easier" or trivialize it. It alters it. Some of the best leaderboard-scoring strategies, lately, have involved leveraging those points to do complete the Trials/Veteran Dragonstar Arena, while still killing everything, that would be difficult or impossible otherwise including concepts like split groups even mid-pull. This doesn't result in it being easier... but rather, different, and on the edge cases where it's only just above the mark of being practically possible, it actually becomes harder to pull off.

@MaximusDargo additionally brought up a pretty good point, as far as individual progression. I've posted more than a bit before, about the champion system, its power gap potential (or lack thereof, depending on your opinion), and leveling speeds between different game activities. One of the reasons I basically had stopped posting about PVP and PVE XP parity even in a thread directed at @ZOS_BrianWheeler, was that I realized something: "Maybe those mobs, in the massive Imperial City sewers I'd seen @Dominoid's datamined maps of, provide good XP, enough so that it's worth the risk to kill them for currency as well as leveling, with the risk of PVP attackers and mixing up the action in gameplay! That might be why they aren't mentioning much about really and definitely looking into raising the XP from player kills directly?"

I think that turned out to be the case! The sewers mobs I've been killing packs of so far, give around 1255 champion XP/regular XP without enlightenment, when not subscribed to ESO Plus but using a crafted Psijic Ambrosia drink on the Imperial City 2.1 PTS. Is that going to be enough to bridge the parity gap? Not necessarily. But, it may bring it close enough along with the whole idea of a rolling cap average as @Gidorick's been advocating for, that it overall becomes a non-issue in the practical sense when playing. Hop in a duo or trio and rampage through which makes the killing much easier and more reliable along with giving you better odds when enemy players inevitably jump on you to go for a fight, and it's a very fun & varied source of XP gain, Tel Var stones, and AP!

CLIFF NOTES: So basically, to sum up my mini-wall of text here, I'm thinking that:
-The rolling cap average idea (taking into account server processing load, it would have its effect almost entirely the same way by doing it once a day at an off-peak time, for the boost) that scales based on your current champion rank vs. the top ten or so percent's, granting you more Enlightenment on your daily tick based upon how big the difference is (remember, Enlightenment causes you to earn champion points at quadruple the speed you do when you aren't Enlightened).
-The Imperial City may have already hit the answer, if that were implemented, as far as making up the rest of the parity gap in PVE/PVP. I'm sure most people can relate: if you have Enlightenment, it really doesn't feel like it takes long to grab a champion level. Therefore, even in PVE activity that doesn't give as much insane XP as solely focusing on your earnings per hour, you still would be progressing at a nice rate then.

Well that's one opinion - long winded as usual.

I dont agree with CPs caps as a solution to the problem which the CP system has created in an already problem plagued leveling system at end game.

Temporarily capping stats by DLCs is just a band aid on a bigger issue few are willing to look at square in the face. The game was already a sleepwalk before CPs let alone now, and no amount of delays in people still being able to acquire all of them will change it. Allowing for all possible combat passives from the CP system allocation to be applied to a single build is the issue.

jircris11 · August 2015

Yes, It will allow others to catch up.

i only agree with it IF it caps all those who have exploited their CP in the past. there are those such as my self who have earned all their CP through questing and such. but there are those who have over 1k CP from using an exploit back when CP first launched. Cap us all at the same number and i will call it fair. meaning if its 500 then there are ONLY 500 CP to spend, though allow us to earn more CP as a reserve for when the cap goes up.

Saturn · August 2015

Yes, It will allow others to catch up.

Being able to grind your way to power, regardless of skill, is just an all around poor game mechanic that ruins balance in PvP and on PvE leaderboards.

JacksonCarter13 · August 2015

Yes, It will allow others to catch up.

Champion points in PVP=Broken Its completely dumb to think someone has 300 more than me; Because Ive completed literally every single pve thing more than once. I have 230 Champion points with the most Achievements in the game... Nope CP needs to be capped because the way it Is rewarded is to those casuals who think that grinding CP=progression. Cap the system dlc comes out every three months increase it by 250. People will still not be caught up

Attorneyatlawl · August 2015

Soulshine wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

lance_lindbergub17_ESO wrote: »

CP is primarily a problem for PVP. There's a much easier solution than capping it for everyone, give PVP players a choice, by making a campaign that uses CP, and one that does not. Simple.

If I want CP points to count in PVP , I join the campaign that incorporates CP.
If I don't want CP points involved in PVP, I join the campaign that ignores them.

CP has an (smaller) impact on PVE. Instead of capping it for everyone, give PVE players a choice, to use CP/not for ranked content.

If I want to run VDSA using CP, I choose to do so and am ranked with others using CP
If I want to run VDSA without CP, I choose to do so, and am ranked with others ignoring CP

CP does NOT "primarily" affect PvP. It impacts every aspect of play and completely trivializes it to the point of making it irrelevant to the Godmode options it renders for players. You put in a system which allows for essentially infinite progression into all possible passives and then sit back and watch PvE challenge go completely out the window (already happened) and class balance - such as it was anyway even before CP... - totally irrelevant.

The system design at core was flawed from the get go and is not conducive to meaningful choices let alone in harmony with that concept, and in fact is a departure from it in the wost way. Considering the massive litany of rationlizations for the 5 skill action bar alone, you would think someone on the dev team would have realized that allowing for everything to get maxed for every stat, would not be a smart let alone sustainable system in an MMO.

Then the problem is not CP but lack of content scaled up to people with that much CP?

Have you ever thought that people who grinded CP might enjoy the fact that now everything is easy? Have you thought they might have done this on purpose? That they like it when their character gets stronger?

Have you ever played with a progression raiding guild? Have you ever played with a dedicated hardcore PvP guild? Have you ever thought that those people do NOT enjoying facerolling content by just lamblasting past all mechanics because the DPS, shields, blocking, etc. is so over the top? There have already been umpteen threads posted about this as far back as the earliest rounds of PTS testing of CP system.

We are also not talking about getting "stronger" here. The CP system allows for ALL stats to be completly maxed out and all possible combat passives as well -- regardless of your build, your role, or yoour skill at playing.

Players in every single MMO I have ever played also always outpace the rate at which content is delivered. You cannot put in a system like this one as just say the solution is that well we just need to have more content scaled up.

(Cliff notes/tl;dr section at the end of this post.)

I'm in a progression raiding guild now, and have played with dedicated hardcore PvP guilds, both in ESO and other games. Hoping soon to join up with a hardcore PvP one (to be continued... ) again here.

Here's the interesting thing about allowing for character strength to grow beyond the content: limit it enough so that it isn't overwhelmingly powerful to where the content is like sleepwalking, and it doesn't make it "easier" or trivialize it. It alters it. Some of the best leaderboard-scoring strategies, lately, have involved leveraging those points to do complete the Trials/Veteran Dragonstar Arena, while still killing everything, that would be difficult or impossible otherwise including concepts like split groups even mid-pull. This doesn't result in it being easier... but rather, different, and on the edge cases where it's only just above the mark of being practically possible, it actually becomes harder to pull off.

@MaximusDargo additionally brought up a pretty good point, as far as individual progression. I've posted more than a bit before, about the champion system, its power gap potential (or lack thereof, depending on your opinion), and leveling speeds between different game activities. One of the reasons I basically had stopped posting about PVP and PVE XP parity even in a thread directed at @ZOS_BrianWheeler, was that I realized something: "Maybe those mobs, in the massive Imperial City sewers I'd seen @Dominoid's datamined maps of, provide good XP, enough so that it's worth the risk to kill them for currency as well as leveling, with the risk of PVP attackers and mixing up the action in gameplay! That might be why they aren't mentioning much about really and definitely looking into raising the XP from player kills directly?"

I think that turned out to be the case! The sewers mobs I've been killing packs of so far, give around 1255 champion XP/regular XP without enlightenment, when not subscribed to ESO Plus but using a crafted Psijic Ambrosia drink on the Imperial City 2.1 PTS. Is that going to be enough to bridge the parity gap? Not necessarily. But, it may bring it close enough along with the whole idea of a rolling cap average as @Gidorick's been advocating for, that it overall becomes a non-issue in the practical sense when playing. Hop in a duo or trio and rampage through which makes the killing much easier and more reliable along with giving you better odds when enemy players inevitably jump on you to go for a fight, and it's a very fun & varied source of XP gain, Tel Var stones, and AP!

CLIFF NOTES: So basically, to sum up my mini-wall of text here, I'm thinking that:
-The rolling cap average idea (taking into account server processing load, it would have its effect almost entirely the same way by doing it once a day at an off-peak time, for the boost) that scales based on your current champion rank vs. the top ten or so percent's, granting you more Enlightenment on your daily tick based upon how big the difference is (remember, Enlightenment causes you to earn champion points at quadruple the speed you do when you aren't Enlightened).
-The Imperial City may have already hit the answer, if that were implemented, as far as making up the rest of the parity gap in PVE/PVP. I'm sure most people can relate: if you have Enlightenment, it really doesn't feel like it takes long to grab a champion level. Therefore, even in PVE activity that doesn't give as much insane XP as solely focusing on your earnings per hour, you still would be progressing at a nice rate then.

Well that's one opinion - long winded as usual.

I dont agree with CPs caps as a solution to the problem which the CP system has created in an already problem plagued leveling system at end game.

Temporarily capping stats by DLCs is just a band aid on a bigger issue few are willing to look at square in the face. The game was already a sleepwalk before CPs let alone now, and no amount of delays in people still being able to acquire all of them will change it. Allowing for all possible combat passives from the CP system allocation to be applied to a single build is the issue.

Well.... no, it's not. Leaderboard Trials and VDSA runs are anything but a sleepwalk, and like I said, it does open up additional strategies that result in a rolling difficulty increase in some ways, too. For solo PVE content, or daily undaunted gold key dungeons? Sure, I wouldn't disagree that they're pretty easy for a lot of people, although they likewise aren't for some as well.

The issue of Champion Ranks not ultimately allowing for customization due to eventually earning all of them, is an idea I'm already planning to speak of a solution for soon, which I hope will be pretty popular

.

EDIT: Added spoiler tags around the quote, which ended up being way too big

.

thunderwell · August 2015

Yes, It will allow others to catch up.

I'm all for reasonable caps.
There's more to enjoy in a game than being the baddest, toughest player in the game.
It allows others to catch up (nobody likes to feel Luke they're falling behind faster than content).
Players that are all about being on top of everybody else just sound like they need a life outside games.
Or need something else to do with their game time.
Some people just really need something to do other than grind.
Grinding isn't the only thing in an MMO.

Jando · August 2015

No, I earned all my CP and want to use them

My thoughts on the proposed change:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/202989/seasonal-caps-are-not-the-best-option-to-fix-champion-system#latest