No longer "play how you want"
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Mitchblue✭✭✭✭IMO, most of those "I have to follow along and do this cookie cutter build" aren't very good anyway. The good ones create their own build..Anyone else rooting for Molag Bal?3 -
One of the selling points of this game was to be able to "play the way you want to play", but in the last year and a half the game has become meta driven and cookie cutter supreme.In order to play a viable class a player must run a certain build, in specific gear, and have a nearly identical skill rotation as every other player. This makes for players all running around in the same gear, with the same skills, spamming nearly the exact same abilities in order to be successful.
The "Elder Scrolls" has a rich history of players being able to "play how they want to play", setting up their skills NOT by a predetermined set of abilities, but by bringing together skills and abilities that they like to use, and what works for them.
What this game needs is the "Spell Crafting" that was promised and showcased in July 2014, along with a custom class, not some "Dragon Knight" that has absolutely NOTHING to do with dragons, or a joke of a sorcerer that has predetermined spells. What if I want to be a Fire Sorcerer, or perhaps a Sorcerer that is a master of Frost and Alteration spells? The answer: I cant, and there is NOTHING even remotely close to choose from.
The only thing "Elder Scrolls" about ESO is the theme, the locales, and the title. Its not a game where you have the freedom to create your character and develop a uniqueness that sets you apart from everyone else, but instead, its a game where you get the exact same thing that everyone else does.
Try to cover that up by selling a few unique costumes in the crown store, but we all know that underneath that new "Ashlander Costume" is a player wearing the exact same gear as me, running the exact same skills and abilities, doing the exact same grinds over and over and over...
It never was "play how you want", really... the moment we had preset character classes with restricted Skill Lines that came to an end. That ship sailed well before lauch. From there on out, it shifts back towards more general MMO's, where it boils down to mixing in what customization you can achieve with what character class suits your intended play style, and hoping they don't re-balance your build away from you later on. We do have a wide variety of options, but it certainly isn't as open as the other ES games.
Spellcrafting could be a solution to that, but first they'd have to sort out the relative "value" of damage, healing, shields, buffs, debuffs, utility benefits, and so on... something that they're having a hard enough time doing with the premade Skill Lines, much less getting to the custom ones. I don't envy them the task of getting Spellcrafting (or more likely "Skillcrafting" to apply to both Stamina and Magicka) sorted out, but I do applaud their intent. Still, it's not a "no longer" thing... that aspect of the game is ESO as it has been since launch.
Of course, if they unlocked the Skill Lines to all characters regardless of class... by Sheogorath we'd see which were truly OP/UP, wouldn't we?Edited by panemetcircenses on August 1, 2015 7:01AM5 -
k2blader✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »In order to play a viable class a player must run a certain build, in specific gear, and have a nearly identical skill rotation as every other player. This makes for players all running around in the same gear, with the same skills, spamming nearly the exact same abilities in order to be successful.
Okay, this is utter shank. If someone tells you you need to run with "this specific loadout" or you can't succeed. Crack them across the head and find competent players to run with.
This includes the sites that write off a bunch of the skills as useless, or tells you that it's impossible to fill any role with any class. Yes, they crunched the numbers. Yes, they're also completely wrong.
Some combinations of skills aren't going to work, but there are very few truly worthless skills in the game. The worst case are skills that are very conditional in their uses.
Do you PvP?
Typed that while waiting on a Cyrodiil load screen. Granted, I was running someone else around so they could get Cyrodiilic Steel, so the murder was mostly a side show tonight. Still, plenty of very confused, and dead, Pact and Covenant out there tonight.
But, that's just small scale, where your build and ability to play actually matter, as opposed to being part of a zerg ball, where if you don't know what you're doing, someone else will carry you.
Though, watching multiple (allegedly) skilled V14 die to a couple level 35s was just sad.
OK just asking because it's pretty clear in PvP which builds/setups are the best to run.
Also most zergs/blobs I see on live are led by PvP guilds, so when people talk "ability to play" I dunno what they mean besides outnumbering randoms or killing disorganized groups, which I don't consider very skilled at all.
Disabling the grass may improve performance.0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »In order to play a viable class a player must run a certain build, in specific gear, and have a nearly identical skill rotation as every other player. This makes for players all running around in the same gear, with the same skills, spamming nearly the exact same abilities in order to be successful.
Okay, this is utter shank. If someone tells you you need to run with "this specific loadout" or you can't succeed. Crack them across the head and find competent players to run with.
This includes the sites that write off a bunch of the skills as useless, or tells you that it's impossible to fill any role with any class. Yes, they crunched the numbers. Yes, they're also completely wrong.
Some combinations of skills aren't going to work, but there are very few truly worthless skills in the game. The worst case are skills that are very conditional in their uses.
Do you PvP?
Typed that while waiting on a Cyrodiil load screen. Granted, I was running someone else around so they could get Cyrodiilic Steel, so the murder was mostly a side show tonight. Still, plenty of very confused, and dead, Pact and Covenant out there tonight.
But, that's just small scale, where your build and ability to play actually matter, as opposed to being part of a zerg ball, where if you don't know what you're doing, someone else will carry you.
Though, watching multiple (allegedly) skilled V14 die to a couple level 35s was just sad.
OK just asking because it's pretty clear in PvP which builds/setups are the best to run.
Also most zergs/blobs I see on live are led by PvP guilds, so when people talk "ability to play" I dunno what they mean besides outnumbering randoms or killing disorganized groups, which I don't consider very skilled at all.
In PvP there's a lot of room for builds that disrupt another player's ability to function, or do things they don't account for.
Low point tonight was a v14 Sorc who was trying to gank Cropsford. When he realized things weren't going his way, he tried to bolt escape away... except he didn't break aggro on my clanfear. I followed it through the town, across a creak, around behind a rock, and there he was waiting for his out of combat health to regen to kick in. Which didn't happen once he started getting slapped in the face by my clanfear.
Never thought of using one as a hunting dog before... I'd stuck it on my bar for the healing.2 -
Rinmaethodain✭✭✭✭✭
✭I agree with OP.
Removing stamina regen while blocking will force people to use only few selected tank builds -> no longer play how you want
This will also force that every healer will have to use shards to feed stamina, your healer is other class? sorry bro -> no longer play how you want
ZOS in order to cover up for unjustified nerf to stamina regen, is introducing a mundus stone that regens stamina (too bad its still 0 when blocking)
BUT
at the same time they remove combat health regen mundus stone.
They didnt try to merge two stones and make extra space for stamina regen. They didnt tried to take health regen away and add it to for example The Steed stone. They didnt try to add another stone for stamina regen.
So now we will have Max health/Max stamina/Max magicka/Regen magicka/Regen stamina
No more health regen. ITs unfair, either we have full set of mundus stones to pick from or we have nothing to pick from.
You want combat health regen? Sorry, no more because ZOS has to push trough a ubernerf to stam regen and they have to pretend they are trying to make it easier -> no longer play how you wantEdited by Rinmaethodain on August 1, 2015 8:01AM3 -
Bromburak✭✭✭✭✭MaximusDargus wrote: »
You want combat health regen? Sorry, no more because ZOS has to push trough a ubernerf to stam regen and they have to pretend they are trying to make it easier -> no longer play how you want
You make no sense. Whats easier? Watching how passives tick or play active?
You want a mechanism to gain health in combat automatically.
There is a reason for inst heals and hots, play active , not passive.
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Rinmaethodain✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Who is not making sense?MaximusDargus wrote: »
You want combat health regen? Sorry, no more because ZOS has to push trough a ubernerf to stam regen and they have to pretend they are trying to make it easier -> no longer play how you want
You make no sense. Whats easier? Watching how passives tick or play active?
You want a mechanism to gain health in combat automatically.
There is a reason for inst heals and hots, play active , not passive.
I complain they remove combat health regen mundus stone because its unfair that we will have combat stam regen and combat magicka regen but no health regen.
You say there is no point because we have inst heals and hots?
Go ahead and ask ZOS to remove stamina regen mundus stone then, because we have abilities that restore stamina and shards, and heavy attacks.
Go ahead and ask ZOS to remove magicka regen mundus stone then, because we have abilities that restore magicka and heavy attacks.
Go ahead mr. bromburak and ask ZOS to remove any combat regeneration because "you play active not passive". Im also sure your character build doesent have a single SP invested into passive ability? Because doh that would be playing passive?
Edited by Rinmaethodain on August 1, 2015 8:02AM2 -
Bromburak✭✭✭✭✭MaximusDargus wrote: »
Go ahead and ask ZOS to remove stamina regen mundus stone then, because we have abilities that restore stamina and shards, and heavy attacks.
Apparently you don't raid and don't play tanks.
We already have a severe nerf on blocking and there is a CD on shards as usual for most synergies.
Edited by Bromburak on August 1, 2015 8:12AM0 -
Rinmaethodain✭✭✭✭✭
✭MaximusDargus wrote: »
Go ahead and ask ZOS to remove stamina regen mundus stone then, because we have abilities that restore stamina and shards, and heavy attacks.
Apparently you don't raid and don't play tanks.
We already have a severe nerf on blocking and your shard statement is a joke because there is a CD on shards as usual for most synergies.
Im on the same cart as you, i hate nerf of blocking and the fact people just tell "suck it up we have shards".
I dont understand why did you jumped on me, just because i suggested equal access to mundus stone buffs (the one you can only have one at a time).
People should be free to choose:
On life server we have 5 mundus stones
- magicka regen
- health regen
- max health/max stam/max magicka
On PTS zos plans to do:
- magicka regen
- stamina regen
- max health/max stam/max magicka
None of those are fair, because there is always missing one.
The only fair option supporting "play as you want" would be to give player a CHOICE to pick one and sacrifice others:
- magicka/stamina/health regen
- max magicka/stamina/health
As you said above, when i said that that false statement that "we dont need stamina regen because we have shards and heavy attacks" it sounded as ridicolous, and it didnt make any sense, just as yours: "we dont need health regen mundus stone because we have inst heals and hots, play active "
Both statements have no sense and are false.
Thats why we need equality and eso and let player choose what he wants
6 mundus stones to pick one from them:
The only fair option supporting "play as you want" would be to give player a CHOICE to pick one and sacrifice others:
- magicka/stamina/health regen
- max magicka/stamina/health
This would be "Play how you want"1 -
Bromburak✭✭✭✭✭MaximusDargus wrote: »MaximusDargus wrote: »
Go ahead and ask ZOS to remove stamina regen mundus stone then, because we have abilities that restore stamina and shards, and heavy attacks.
Apparently you don't raid and don't play tanks.
We already have a severe nerf on blocking and your shard statement is a joke because there is a CD on shards as usual for most synergies.
Im on the same cart as you, i hate nerf of blocking and the fact people just tell "suck it up we have shards".
I dont understand why did you jumped on me, just because i suggested equal access to mundus stone buffs (the one you can only have one at a time).
Because you don't understand the difference between combat health regen and ressource regen for abilities.
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Vizier✭✭✭✭✭
✭MaximusDargus wrote: »
You want combat health regen? Sorry, no more because ZOS has to push trough a ubernerf to stam regen and they have to pretend they are trying to make it easier -> no longer play how you want
You make no sense. Whats easier? Watching how passives tick or play active?
You want a mechanism to gain health in combat automatically.
There is a reason for inst heals and hots, play active , not passive.
It's basically all slanted toward magicka builds after 1.7. There are racial passives for all three attributes to regen in combat. Now ofcourse that doesn't work if they are in combat and blocking? By removing the health mundus the only attribute regen left alone is Magicka which makes no beeping sense at all. Why should a Shield stacking mage continue to regen magicka but a blocking DK not regen stamina while blocking and also have gimped health regeneration? So they can't block worth a crap and so will take more damage but recoup it at a reduced rate. ... um ya. That makes all the sense in the world if you use robes and staves.
Does ZoS have any concept of where this game is going? Cuz all I see is them continuously switching direction based on a very vocal minority. They continue to scrap those aspects of the game they've used to promote it and when they actually hit on a decent concept, such as CP, they then start bending over backwards to hamstring it by leaving in VR and now speaking of a CP cap per DLC? WTH! It seems the only thing we as players can count on is ZoS's inconsistent course and apparent ever changing destination with regard to where this game is going.
Edited by Vizier on August 1, 2015 8:42AM2 -
Leandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Please for the love of all that is holy, can we let this "Play as you want" thing finally rest? It was referring to the fact that you can put your sorcerer into heavy armor, have him take up two daggers and still be able to manage the content.
It was never meant like players decided to interpret it, and throw skill points and equipment together by dice rolling and be of similar strength than everybody else.
Sorry to say it this plainly, but to think this would work means either one is of limited mental capacity or that all fluff one does with a character is purely visual.
The argument about play as you want is similar to a four year old saying "but you promised I could fly to the moon, daddy". Really.Edited by Leandor on August 1, 2015 8:56AM2 -
Bromburak✭✭✭✭✭Again there is no issue with health because we have enough options to deal with it in any situation.
But this is not the case when it comes to stamina while playing a specific role or class.
One example are tanking duties, they are not balanced and if you didn't out level specific content its a class specific role too.
Some classes do have heavy advantages on specific roles because we have "hidden trinity" in a hybrid system. Of course ZOS would never say its true, but we all know its true for situational content.
A "free" system would not offer 4 classes, it would offer you a choice of skill lines.Edited by Bromburak on August 1, 2015 9:16AM1 -
DaveTheMinion✭✭✭The problem is everyone wants to be unique yet they still want the game to be balanced! so far I think the game and set up is working, but with every class having something that works for them either being buffed or nurfed is always going to cause frustration for others who enjoy the way they play right now, I just think that when things change we just need to figure out what works according to the new set up and just adapt.EU PS4 Megaserver
VR16 Sorc - Daggerfall - Magic Build
VR16 Nightblade - Daggerfall - Stamina Build
PS4 Guild: Illuminati Gaming for the over 30's is not a myth.0 -
Kupoking✭✭✭✭✭Totally disagree.
Ive played a templar with every imaginable build except healer and did well in every aspect of the game. People who thinks you cannot play how you want just lack of imagination or arent creative with builds.
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Bromburak✭✭✭✭✭houimetub17_ESO wrote: »Totally disagree.
Ive played a templar with every imaginable build except healer and did well in every aspect of the game. People who thinks you cannot play how you want just lack of imagination or arent creative with builds.
How was tanking vDSA with Sorc, DK, Templar and NB?
Balanced tanks? Then you clearly have no experience or not telling the truth!Edited by Bromburak on August 1, 2015 9:28AM1 -
Kupoking✭✭✭✭✭Only major issue ive had tanking vet dsa with nb was that I could not solo tank the 4mini bosses in round 10 due to no spammable self heal.
As of sorcs ive seen them tank sanctum before I could even complete it on my own templar or dk tank.
Dont go down the tanking department with me on this subject. I am currently testing templar nb and dks on pts and all 3 are doing well. Was templar tanking even before craglorn was released and completed all content with this char.0 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭zardenurghanb14_ESO wrote: »You realize that at its core you can play how you want it isnt the devs that have said "you need to do this and have this gear" its the community
Exactly this, and it's down to you how you respond to it. It's only the few highly competitive min-maxers who feel they have to follow the FOTM build, most others are able to play how they want to - and I wouldn't be at all surprised if they get by just as well as those who feel compelled to do it a certain way.0 -
Bromburak✭✭✭✭✭@houimetub17_ESO
We are not talking about succeeding content, we are talking about tanking.
You didn't answer my question. "Do you think , class dependent tanks are balanced?"
Please explain your Yes or No.Edited by Bromburak on August 1, 2015 9:51AM0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭houimetub17_ESO wrote: »As of sorcs ive seen them tank sanctum before I could even complete it on my own templar or dk tank.
As far as I can tell, the entire basis behind the "Sorcs can't tank" myth is people who look at them and then try to make a DK build off their class skills.1 -
Kupoking✭✭✭✭✭@houimetub17_ESO
We are not talking about succeeding content, we are talking about tanking.
You didn't answer my question. "Do you think , class dependent tanks are balanced?"
Please explain your Yes or No.
Regarding tanking, other than the sorc which I have not tested, DK and templar are pretty even and in 2.1 NB will reach them.
Templars can take much more of a beating than a DK therefore making those hard hitting bosses easier to tank due to aedric spear passives and their spammable dmg shield. Their regen is overall better than dks if you are using the right rune focus morph and have resto aura. DK supasses only the stam regen due to restoring 4% stam activating igneous shield and GDB. You can also slot BoL and become a mini healer and your nova give mitigation to your group in phases like Manitcora Stomp or Serpent's poison phase.
I've successfully tanked SO, SO HM, Vet DSA on this templar. Been tanking content since 1.0 on him and no content ever stopped it. Back then, people had the same *** attitude as most ppl on this thread saying templar cannot tank and only heal. Was on most training runs and some attempts for my old guild's 30min SO run group. Was able to knock it off under 45mins back then tanking on my templar back in 1.5.
Example here: (White Gold tower on PTS with 1 templar tank, 1 templar magika DPS and 1 Templar healer. say you cant play how you want anymore after that)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mDYgjH8AINY
DKs advantages over templar is when it comes to aoe tanking with talons and chains. You control the fight much more that way.
I've recently leveled a NB to v14 so start tanking with this one. Regarding NB with the changes to regen passive they might climb up to being on par. Their aoe tanking with refesh path and sap essence. Use of double take (might change for othe morph) makes you able to not use hist bark and nullify 1/5 attacks on you without even blocking. With 2.1 around the corner it opens up the use of that black rose set or even regen sets. Used 3 pc heavy SO set prior. Extra HP / Healing taken from most passives makes up for most weaknesses this tank has. Ultimate-wise you had ultra mitigation with your bolstering darkness and it comes up faster due to potion passive, siphon passive and use of heavy attacks needed in 2.1. A good NB will have it up All the time during the hard hitting phases.
Only thing they are missing is blocking damage reduc passives in classline, a bubble to setup before a heavy damaging hit and armor increasing ability as shadow passif isnt reliable. Good thing immovable exists, which I will use for CC break redux due to stam regen nerf.
Ill try to run vet dsa with my nb tonite and upload a video. Might attempt the tanks all 4 miniboss by myself at stage 10 to prove my point.Edited by Kupoking on August 1, 2015 11:51AM0 -
Kupoking✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »houimetub17_ESO wrote: »As of sorcs ive seen them tank sanctum before I could even complete it on my own templar or dk tank.
As far as I can tell, the entire basis behind the "Sorcs can't tank" myth is people who look at them and then try to make a DK build off their class skills.
could not agree more. Thats why I say people lack imagination and creativity using copy cat builds, worse trying to apply it to other classes.Edited by Kupoking on August 1, 2015 12:00PM0 -
Bromburak✭✭✭✭✭houimetub17_ESO wrote:
Ill try to run vet dsa with my nb tonite and upload a video. Might attempt the tanks all 4 miniboss by myself at stage 10 to prove my point.
There is no need to show if you are able to succeed vDSA with a specific class because we already out geared and out leveled the content ... One of the reason the block nerf is not a issue in the current state of the game but it will be as soon a role becomes more important like it should be from trinity and group perspective.
Thats exactly the problem, we need balanced content first to move on with pure skill that requires a tank and then compare the role with all classes. The class system failed before we out leveled things and now everyone thinks its fine.
How can the current state of difficulty (easy) be an excuse for mechanics? The content is way to easy because the only requirement is being over geared with proper CP to support insane hybrid builds.
Thats what makes us succeed group content solo, this kind of raiding is pretty much ridiculous.Edited by Bromburak on August 1, 2015 12:31PM0 -
I use whatever I want, I wear whatever I want and I do whatever I want.
This is a game and I'm not playing to win but to have fun. Not sure if I'm in the minority here but I'll go with whatever feels best to me
...
Did I say 'whatever' yet?
It's all about fashion anyway
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Bromburak✭✭✭✭✭Grapedragon wrote: »It's all about fashion anyway
Oh yeah, its just the look but thats a good point too.
Do you think there is enough fashion for diversity? I doubt it.Edited by Bromburak on August 1, 2015 1:00PM0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Grapedragon wrote: »I use whatever I want, I wear whatever I want and I do whatever I want.
This is a game and I'm not playing to win but to have fun. Not sure if I'm in the minority here but I'll go with whatever feels best to me
...
Did I say 'whatever' yet?
It's all about fashion anyway
If only I could justify Inner Mage Light and Bound Armaments. That combo looks seriously badass. Terrible for PvP or endgame content though.1 -
Sneak_Thief✭✭✭✭Well you can play as you want, but also die and be ineffective as you don't want.1 -
VoidBlue✭✭✭✭Sneak_Thief wrote: »Well you can play as you want, but also die and be ineffective as you don't want.
Maybe that's how they wanted to play, maybe they want to die and be ineffective.0 -
Machiavelli✭✭✭Just because you are unique doesn't mean you're useful. You can play as you want, you just can't expect other people to accept your play style and build. But more power to light armor, two handed sword sorc tanks.0
