Anyone else feel like ZOS is trying to increase game length in the wrong way?

FloppyFrank · July 2015

Anyone else feel like ZOS is trying to increase the length of the game though making everything take very long to get? Like how many mats it requires to craft a VR15/16 item, the amount of fragments needed to obtain the Glass Motif, and the amount of Tel Var stones needed to purchase anything. Correct me if I am wrong on any of these since I haven't played the PTS; everything here is based off of what Ive seen and read. I love ESO, I just don't think they're going in the right direction with how they are trying to increasing the game's length.

OrangeTheCat · July 2015

Isn't that common practice in MMOs?

Kobaal · July 2015

Duh, lets make them play longer by making every grindfest even longer grindfests. That way we can keep raking in the $14.99 a month.

And for those that don't sub, we can offer the same stuff the grinders are trying to get from the crown store and make money off them too!

xaraan · July 2015

Yes. It's a little too much IMO. I like the "work for it" style, but once it gets to be too much of a grind where you dread doing something instead of look forward to it a line has been crossed. They just need to find that line.

wafcatb14_ESO · July 2015

Yup thats how they work however there is really nothing in their store I will buy, I`ll buy the IC DLC simply because it is like 30 min work so cheap and nothing else I want to play is out yet.

But aside from that Ill never buy another Zos product again.

Lord Xanhorn · July 2015

FloppyFrank wrote: »

Anyone else feel like ZOS is trying to increase the length of the game though making everything take very long to get? Like how many mats it requires to craft a VR15/16 item, the amount of fragments needed to obtain the Glass Motif, and the amount of Tel Var stones needed to purchase anything. Correct me if I am wrong on any of these since I haven't played the PTS; everything here is based off of what Ive seen and read. I love ESO, I just don't think they're going in the right direction with how they are trying to increasing the game's length.

What's the alternative? People like you are always saying how you don't want to grind for anything. No gear grind, no craft grind, no mob grind, no dungeon grind, no nothing grind. Just give me all the things for no effort at all.

I mean come on. That's the current state of the game and if you haven't noticed, it sucks not having anything to do.

So unless you want to come up with a genre shattering concept of how to keep players engaged without a grind, go away!

Avenias · July 2015

xaraan wrote: »

Yes. It's a little too much IMO. I like the "work for it" style, but once it gets to be too much of a grind where you dread doing something instead of look forward to it a line has been crossed. They just need to find that line.

I agree and all the mentality of work for it in game is just bs. Ppl dont play the game to work for sonething, they play it to enjoy. If u want to work, get ur ass off the couch and find a job.

daemonios · July 2015

It's especially apparent because it's arbitrary. Every level gear requires some 10-15 mats, yet VR16 requires 100-150. Every level mat can be harvested in the open world, yet VR15-16 require particularly rare drops or expensive purchases. Every crafting style used to have its own book. Starting with Dwemer, you now have to grind pages or chapters, and to add insult to injury the new styles require an additional purchase-only material. Provisioning has its own new grind with the Psijic recipe parts and the perfect roe, and enchanting is going down the same road with the mysterious new IC-only rune. I suppose we'll have to carefully collect the tears of fallen bosses and distill them with a single-use alembic to make VR20 potions...

They're turning crafting into a jumbled mess in order to push this agenda of endless grinding. That, more than anything, really annoys me.

daemonios · July 2015

Lord Xanhorn wrote: »

unless you want to come up with a genre shattering concept of how to keep players engaged without a grind, go away!

What was wrong with the Dungeons/Trials grind? You still had to run them quite a few times to get the sets. Running a dungeon up to 50 times for the set seems reasonable to me, then you can focus on doing competitive runs FOR FUN. Or they could do a simple thing and introduce PvP arenas where you could go against a similarly-sized group, which would solve some of the imbalance of open-world PvP and give players something to do. TERA had a few arena modes that were loads of fun, namely the pirate keep where you'd first defend it from the other team and in a second round attempt to take it from them.

OzJohnD · July 2015

nope

FloppyFrank · July 2015

Lord Xanhorn wrote: »

FloppyFrank wrote: »

Anyone else feel like ZOS is trying to increase the length of the game though making everything take very long to get? Like how many mats it requires to craft a VR15/16 item, the amount of fragments needed to obtain the Glass Motif, and the amount of Tel Var stones needed to purchase anything. Correct me if I am wrong on any of these since I haven't played the PTS; everything here is based off of what Ive seen and read. I love ESO, I just don't think they're going in the right direction with how they are trying to increasing the game's length.

What's the alternative? People like you are always saying how you don't want to grind for anything. No gear grind, no craft grind, no mob grind, no dungeon grind, no nothing grind. Just give me all the things for no effort at all.

I mean come on. That's the current state of the game and if you haven't noticed, it sucks not having anything to do.

So unless you want to come up with a genre shattering concept of how to keep players engaged without a grind, go away!

How about they make some fun event, dungeon, or trial to get these items, instead of mindlessly grinding and looking for containers to open.

Korah_Eaglecry · July 2015

FloppyFrank wrote: »

Anyone else feel like ZOS is trying to increase the length of the game though making everything take very long to get? Like how many mats it requires to craft a VR15/16 item, the amount of fragments needed to obtain the Glass Motif, and the amount of Tel Var stones needed to purchase anything. Correct me if I am wrong on any of these since I haven't played the PTS; everything here is based off of what Ive seen and read. I love ESO, I just don't think they're going in the right direction with how they are trying to increasing the game's length.

A friend of mine recently said that something he hates is when MMOs try to become a second job. And if these Tel Var Stones/Mats for VR16 is not a typo. Then I think he has hit the nail on the head. This game is no longer about being fun. Its now a second job. And personally, I can find better things to do with my personal time then to work for digital peanuts. Games like Fallout 4 which will provide an enormous amount of content that will allow me to replay it over and over again are around the corner. And I wont feel as I should have to quit my day job to be able to enjoy the game.

Personofsecrets · July 2015

YES.

1. Imagine the farmers in the distant past. They had to work very hard for the little that they got.

2. Imagine farmers today that are getting to work much less in exchange for much more.

Nobody in their right mind want to replace the machine with the mule and plow, yet the masochistic attitude that comes with saying MMOs should be a grind does just that.

CaptainObvious · July 2015

Right now they are very pessimistic of the speed with which they can produce content. So they are creating larger hamster wheels with daily events to attempt to keep people "with stuff to do."

If they are able to get into a content flow cycle then the extra grindiness may decrease.

Nebthet78 · July 2015

xaraan wrote: »

Yes. It's a little too much IMO. I like the "work for it" style, but once it gets to be too much of a grind where you dread doing something instead of look forward to it a line has been crossed. They just need to find that line.

This is exactly how I feel right now.. I DREAD how long it is going to take to get the new motifs and create the new armor.

I am not a hard core player, but I do play daily. I don't have millions of gold in the bank like some people do. I have a small modest amount to help me to buy needed armor when my alts make max level.

I don't mind going through and doing Cadwell's over and over again for my alts. At least it is doing something and achieving XP at a reasonable rate. But, I HATE grinding. A wee little bit to get that CP to the next level is find, but day after day, after day, after day of it is not fun.

A line has most definitely been crossed if this is released the way they are doing in. And sorry, I do feel that most of what the vocal people are suggesting is not going to be changed and it IS going to be released pretty much how we are seeing it right now.

I think after my sub runs out this time, I am taking a nice long break until Orsinium comes out. That is, of course, IF they can peak my interest to come back.

Zorrashi · July 2015

Lord Xanhorn wrote: »

FloppyFrank wrote: »

Anyone else feel like ZOS is trying to increase the length of the game though making everything take very long to get? Like how many mats it requires to craft a VR15/16 item, the amount of fragments needed to obtain the Glass Motif, and the amount of Tel Var stones needed to purchase anything. Correct me if I am wrong on any of these since I haven't played the PTS; everything here is based off of what Ive seen and read. I love ESO, I just don't think they're going in the right direction with how they are trying to increasing the game's length.

What's the alternative? People like you are always saying how you don't want to grind for anything. No gear grind, no craft grind, no mob grind, no dungeon grind, no nothing grind. Just give me all the things for no effort at all.

I mean come on. That's the current state of the game and if you haven't noticed, it sucks not having anything to do.

So unless you want to come up with a genre shattering concept of how to keep players engaged without a grind, go away!

I know in older times grinding was the in thing for MMOs at the time. It was easy to make, a lot of them could be made, and it was an easy way to lengthen the game and it actually pretty expected at the time...but fact of the matter is, in this day and age, with technology advancing, consumers of today are becoming more and more aware that they don't have to settle for such shoddy craftsmanship in their games without complaint. Baseless grinding is simply not quality content.

Questing, trials, hard bosses, exploration, random events--all of these are better than a singular mindless grind of "go to this one place, do this one thing, to collect this one type of item to attain this one set". People are more than willing to work for it if the work itself is at least somewhat fun.

Lord Xanhorn · July 2015

Zorrashi wrote: »

Lord Xanhorn wrote: »

FloppyFrank wrote: »

Anyone else feel like ZOS is trying to increase the length of the game though making everything take very long to get? Like how many mats it requires to craft a VR15/16 item, the amount of fragments needed to obtain the Glass Motif, and the amount of Tel Var stones needed to purchase anything. Correct me if I am wrong on any of these since I haven't played the PTS; everything here is based off of what Ive seen and read. I love ESO, I just don't think they're going in the right direction with how they are trying to increasing the game's length.

What's the alternative? People like you are always saying how you don't want to grind for anything. No gear grind, no craft grind, no mob grind, no dungeon grind, no nothing grind. Just give me all the things for no effort at all.

I mean come on. That's the current state of the game and if you haven't noticed, it sucks not having anything to do.

So unless you want to come up with a genre shattering concept of how to keep players engaged without a grind, go away!

I know in older times grinding was the in thing for MMOs at the time. It was easy to make, a lot of them could be made, and it was an easy way to lengthen the game and it actually pretty expected at the time...but fact of the matter is, in this day and age, with technology advancing, consumers of today are becoming more and more aware that they don't have to settle for such shoddy craftsmanship in their games without complaint. Baseless grinding is simply not quality content.

Questing, trials, hard bosses, exploration, random events--all of these are better than a singular mindless grind of "go to this one place, do this one thing, to collect this one type of item to attain this one set". People are more than willing to work for it if the work itself is at least somewhat fun.

I actually agree with you but I took it as the OP not wanting to have to work for anything. That's what we have now. You just get to v14 and craft your set with VERY EASILY collected materials and then you're done. You have the best or equivalent gear in the game. Its terrible.

Content does take resources, time, and effort to create and they should be making it but its well known that developers can't create content faster than players can play it so there must be some sort of grind mechanic involved in order for the players to have long term goals they can work toward while the developers make new content.

To have people poo poo grinding of any kind like people do on this forums, lead to a game where everything is just handed to you and there's no challenge or reason to do anything really and that annoys me quite a bit.

Korah_Eaglecry · July 2015

Lord Xanhorn wrote: »

Zorrashi wrote: »

Lord Xanhorn wrote: »

FloppyFrank wrote: »

Anyone else feel like ZOS is trying to increase the length of the game though making everything take very long to get? Like how many mats it requires to craft a VR15/16 item, the amount of fragments needed to obtain the Glass Motif, and the amount of Tel Var stones needed to purchase anything. Correct me if I am wrong on any of these since I haven't played the PTS; everything here is based off of what Ive seen and read. I love ESO, I just don't think they're going in the right direction with how they are trying to increasing the game's length.

What's the alternative? People like you are always saying how you don't want to grind for anything. No gear grind, no craft grind, no mob grind, no dungeon grind, no nothing grind. Just give me all the things for no effort at all.

I mean come on. That's the current state of the game and if you haven't noticed, it sucks not having anything to do.

So unless you want to come up with a genre shattering concept of how to keep players engaged without a grind, go away!

I know in older times grinding was the in thing for MMOs at the time. It was easy to make, a lot of them could be made, and it was an easy way to lengthen the game and it actually pretty expected at the time...but fact of the matter is, in this day and age, with technology advancing, consumers of today are becoming more and more aware that they don't have to settle for such shoddy craftsmanship in their games without complaint. Baseless grinding is simply not quality content.

Questing, trials, hard bosses, exploration, random events--all of these are better than a singular mindless grind of "go to this one place, do this one thing, to collect this one type of item to attain this one set". People are more than willing to work for it if the work itself is at least somewhat fun.

I actually agree with you but I took it as the OP not wanting to have to work for anything. That's what we have now. You just get to v14 and craft your set with VERY EASILY collected materials and then you're done. You have the best or equivalent gear in the game. Its terrible.

Content does take resources, time, and effort to create and they should be making it but its well known that developers can't create content faster than players can play it so there must be some sort of grind mechanic involved in order for the players to have long term goals they can work toward while the developers make new content.

To have people poo poo grinding of any kind like people do on this forums, lead to a game where everything is just handed to you and there's no challenge or reason to do anything really and that annoys me quite a bit.

Its not like they didnt work for it. They put hours into the game to level their crafting, and research traits that can take upwards to a month to complete once you start digging deeper into a particular weapons trait line.

Lynx7386 · July 2015

Every MMO these days is the same:
1. Launch with a subscription plan, frequent patches/updates/content additions, and excellent customer service and community support.
2. Transition into free to play, making it seem like you're just making the game available to more people by simply "removing" the subscription fee with no real drawbacks.
3. Replace the subscription fee income with cash shop items that are only for "cosmetic" improvements.
4. Slowly make the base game more and more frustrating and require more and more time input to get anywhere, while simultaneously offering cash shop purchases to ease the grind, or to add incentive for players to subscribe for "subscriber only perks".

It's a cash grab. Game publishers these days know that the amount of time and manpower needed to create an MMO that can sustain itself on subscription fees is too costly, so they plan ahead of time to run the game into the ground at just the right rate to make a tidy profit. Eventually, the profit margin bottoms out and you shut down your servers and proceed to work on the next cash cow.

david271749 · July 2015

since release, yes

Mojmir · July 2015

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Every MMO these days is the same:
1. Launch with a subscription plan, frequent patches/updates/content additions, and excellent customer service and community support.
2. Transition into free to play, making it seem like you're just making the game available to more people by simply "removing" the subscription fee with no real drawbacks.
3. Replace the subscription fee income with cash shop items that are only for "cosmetic" improvements.
4. Slowly make the base game more and more frustrating and require more and more time input to get anywhere, while simultaneously offering cash shop purchases to ease the grind, or to add incentive for players to subscribe for "subscriber only perks".

It's a cash grab. Game publishers these days know that the amount of time and manpower needed to create an MMO that can sustain itself on subscription fees is too costly, so they plan ahead of time to run the game into the ground at just the right rate to make a tidy profit. Eventually, the profit margin bottoms out and you shut down your servers and proceed to work on the next cash cow.

I wouldn't mind d the cash shop, if there was something worth buying in there.

Funkopotamus · July 2015

Fact is people like to grind "In moderation" I mean everyone loved WOW and cried about grinding and the tears fell so often that guess what happened?

They made it too easy and the welfare gear handout system drove EVERYONE away and people stopped playing.. Keep in mind most of those people were probably the same people asking for the grind to stop.

Preyfar · July 2015

Funkopotamus wrote: »

They made it too easy and the welfare gear handout system drove EVERYONE away and people stopped playing.. Keep in mind most of those people were probably the same people asking for the grind to stop.

Yeah. The game was a challenge when it first came out, but got progressively easier and easier... to the point new players are hitting veteran levels in a week without grinding, etc. It's a great game, but REALLY easy. This happened after 1.6 when they removed caps due to people creating insane damage and sustain builds that let them devour the content.

Faulgor · July 2015

I like it this way.

What I have trouble with is when they then sell the shortcut in the cash shop.

Funkopotamus · July 2015

Preyfar wrote: »

Funkopotamus wrote: »

They made it too easy and the welfare gear handout system drove EVERYONE away and people stopped playing.. Keep in mind most of those people were probably the same people asking for the grind to stop.

Yeah. The game was a challenge when it first came out, but got progressively easier and easier... to the point new players are hitting veteran levels in a week without grinding, etc. It's a great game, but REALLY easy. This happened after 1.6 when they removed caps due to people creating insane damage and sustain builds that let them devour the content.

Yes I am on the fence about continuing with ESO. The game is getting just to ... Casual Scrolls
TBH. I see all of these post "and most are coming from new posters that just started playing the game" that are throwing fits about not having the very best this or the very best that within 2 weeks of playing the game.. I do not agree with the Runaway CP system by no means, but there is no way I would ever expect to max out characters in that time from scratch.

What I feel is the reason there is such an outcry over having to grind for anything is two fold.

1] Transfers did nothing positive for ESO. NOTHING! All it was able to do was shine the light on the flawed CP system .
2] Most of these people on here screaming about any kind of grind are from console and they are just not used to MMO's or exploiting bugs and asking "Is dez game leek skyreem?"

MMO's MUST have a treadmill or they die.... <---- Fact.

Knootewoot · July 2015

I don't know. I know I don't like grinding. I don't have any armor set from the dailies and I have around 220 CP.

If they put to many things behind a grind fence, with my limited time I would never get it. It's either for me then grind, or have fun. I cannot do both.

So far I can still enjoy the game. PvE wise less because of the worthless grind with bad RNG.
PvP I can still play. Hop in, have some fun and hop out. If it becomes impossible for me to compete gear- or CP wise and I have to grind (instead of having fun in PvP) to be able to be viable in PvP.. then the mmo is not for me anymore. I would just quietly leave and look out for another neat PvP game.

And to be honest. The whole V16 gear and the Tel Var stone and people with unlimited play time who get 1 CP every 40 mins have me on the fence now deciding whether to call it quits or continue the struggle to keep up.

Jando · July 2015

Umm..I know the OP is new to the forums...but haven't they read the hundreds of threads complaining about the grind.....But yes i agree....in fact my signature proves it.

TheBonesXXX · July 2015

I heard 5.0 is out for DnD if you do not have enough time for an MMO or an MMORPG.

It's grindy, if you are a new school mmo player, it's a breeze if you are from UO, AC, SB, DAoC era.

Sausage · July 2015

I think CP is the step in the right direction, it adds insanely much to do. Sure things are confusing now but it gets better in the future.

Nebthet78 · July 2015

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

I heard 5.0 is out for DnD if you do not have enough time for an MMO or an MMORPG.

It's grindy, if you are a new school mmo player, it's a breeze if you are from UO, AC, SB, DAoC era.

You do realize AD&D game sessions usually last a full day when you are with a group of players and typically requires more dedication than playing an MMO right?

PS: 5.0 sucks. Version 2 for life!!

Acrolas · July 2015

On one hand, there's always something to do.

On the other hand, they're doing nothing to advance the narrative through these gopher items. If they gave you a better understanding of the history behind the new pieces, it would be worth it. But instead it's like. Here. Do this. Do this some more.

And we will, because we don't have them yet. But there's absolutely nothing to explain why the pieces are so valuable and desirable within the context of the game itself. "Just to look different" can only carry a game so far. After a while people will start asking why they even bother to look different when there's no Greater Meaning behind a style.