Why do buffs and nerfs always have to be so huge?

Skiserony · July 2015

This will just totally flip what we're doing now, and bring some new (actually the same) problems. Can't they just do minor changes to even out the unbalancing?

Skiserony · July 2015

Talking about next major patch here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/200571/

starkerealm · July 2015

People see minor buffs and nerfs as huge, and major buffs and nerfs as huge. It's a perspective issue.

Rev Rielle · July 2015

Because if one time something is too weak, and the next time something is too strong, you know the true value then lies in the middle somewhere. Knowing what range you're working within is important.

Kammakazi · July 2015

ZOS FIX EXPERT HUNTER

Skiserony · July 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

People see minor buffs and nerfs as huge, and major buffs and nerfs as huge. It's a perspective issue.

No that's not really what I mean. Take a stamina NB build for example, with the stm pass changed and ww stam regen they lose 30% stamina regeneration. Fair? Yeah, but it's just a lot, especially with the roll dodge and block nerf.

Then the mag NB, it got a tremendous buff, like almost ridicolous. Fair? Yeah, but it's a huge buff that I'm not sure if they will be equal.

Thing is, I just don't hope thing flip around again, if you make smaller nerfs and buffs to wherever needed, I feel like it will be easier to balance. I just fear like they have to rebalance the game again for a 3th time now. It could be for the better ofcourse, but it's not really 'fun' for the players.

Rev Rielle wrote: »

Because if one time something is too weak, and the next time something is too strong, you know the true value then lies in the middle somewhere. Knowing what range you're working within is important.

I can understand that, sounds reasonable.

starkerealm · July 2015

Skiserony wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

People see minor buffs and nerfs as huge, and major buffs and nerfs as huge. It's a perspective issue.

No that's not really what I mean. Take a stamina NB build for example, with the stm pass changed and ww stam regen they lose 30% stamina regeneration. Fair? Yeah, but it's just a lot, especially with the roll dodge and block nerf.

Then the mag NB, it got a tremendous buff, like almost ridicolous. Fair? Yeah, but it's a huge buff that I'm not sure if they will be equal.

Thing is, I just don't hope thing flip around again, if you make smaller nerfs and buffs to wherever needed, I feel like it will be easier to balance. I just fear like they have to rebalance the game again for a 3th time now. It could be for the better ofcourse, but it's not really 'fun' for the players.

Okay, let's be honest about this. Players taking werewolf for the passive stamina boost, with no desire to actually be a wolf was freakin' stupid. It created a situation where a player who hadn't taken lycanthropy was at a direct disadvantage versus a player who had taken it. Players were, literally, selling their character's soul to a Daedric prince for a regen increase. That needed to be addressed.

Making it so you only get the stamina regen when you're "on the edge" of wolfing out is a decent compromise, and it takes out the daytripper wolves, who never transform, at the knees without seriously crippling actual werewolves in the process.

Refreshing Shadows? That's not a nerf. It used to be a Stamina only up, now it increases all of your regeneration rates. It's gone from being a skill that was useful to a very specific set of builds to something that all nightblades will benefit from. In the process it's boost was reduced. Which, fine, now it does more things. That's actually a massive improvement, especially for hybrid builds, which ZoS wants to support again.

It ends up your character is no longer getting a +15% that, frankly, they shouldn't have been getting in the first place, and is getting +7.5% regen in Magicka and Health, at the cost of +7.5% stamina regen.

So, no. That's not a major nerf.

Thymos · July 2015

The notes also state that they have reduced the stamina cost of stamina based class abilities for the NB.

Bromburak · July 2015

Why do buffs and nerfs always have to be so huge

There are many changes with minor adjustments that cannot be called nerf or buff
because their impact is not huge enough ...

Skiserony · July 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

Skiserony wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

People see minor buffs and nerfs as huge, and major buffs and nerfs as huge. It's a perspective issue.

No that's not really what I mean. Take a stamina NB build for example, with the stm pass changed and ww stam regen they lose 30% stamina regeneration. Fair? Yeah, but it's just a lot, especially with the roll dodge and block nerf.

Then the mag NB, it got a tremendous buff, like almost ridicolous. Fair? Yeah, but it's a huge buff that I'm not sure if they will be equal.

Thing is, I just don't hope thing flip around again, if you make smaller nerfs and buffs to wherever needed, I feel like it will be easier to balance. I just fear like they have to rebalance the game again for a 3th time now. It could be for the better ofcourse, but it's not really 'fun' for the players.

Okay, let's be honest about this. Players taking werewolf for the passive stamina boost, with no desire to actually be a wolf was freakin' stupid. It created a situation where a player who hadn't taken lycanthropy was at a direct disadvantage versus a player who had taken it. Players were, literally, selling their character's soul to a Daedric prince for a regen increase. That needed to be addressed.

Making it so you only get the stamina regen when you're "on the edge" of wolfing out is a decent compromise, and it takes out the daytripper wolves, who never transform, at the knees without seriously crippling actual werewolves in the process.

Refreshing Shadows? That's not a nerf. It used to be a Stamina only up, now it increases all of your regeneration rates. It's gone from being a skill that was useful to a very specific set of builds to something that all nightblades will benefit from. In the process it's boost was reduced. Which, fine, now it does more things. That's actually a massive improvement, especially for hybrid builds, which ZoS wants to support again.

It ends up your character is no longer getting a +15% that, frankly, they shouldn't have been getting in the first place, and is getting +7.5% regen in Magicka and Health, at the cost of +7.5% stamina regen.

So, no. That's not a major nerf.

Yeah I know what you mean, I'm not saying that. What I said was, certain builds get certain overall nerfs or buffs but it just doesn't feel like 'balancing'. I don't want to know how many mag NB's there will be in PvP. Also, take a look at mag DKs, they we by far not op and now they got nerfed big times, mostly because of the block which they rely on surviving.

I don't want to see a ton of the same builds, and very few of certain builds.

Thymos · July 2015

You should also consider the new items and sets they added to the game as part of balancing.

Skiserony · July 2015

Thymos wrote: »

You should also consider the new items and sets they added to the game as part of balancing.

Agree. I guess I'll have to wait for testing on the PTS. Just a bit concerned here.

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO · July 2015

I remember the official stance around launch: don't make big changes, take small steps towards better balance so you don't end up overshooting the target, possibly creating an even bigger problem.
I guess that's not their way of doing it any more. They might have realized that small tweaks won't cut it, and decided that big changes are needed.

Thymos · July 2015

One person's problem is another person's opportunity.

starkerealm · July 2015

Skiserony wrote: »

Yeah I know what you mean, I'm not saying that. What I said was, certain builds get certain overall nerfs or buffs but it just doesn't feel like 'balancing'. I don't want to know how many mag NB's there will be in PvP. Also, take a look at mag DKs, they we by far not op and now they got nerfed big times, mostly because of the block which they rely on surviving.

I don't want to see a ton of the same builds, and very few of certain builds.

With respect, we've spent the last year hearing DKs crowing about how powerful they are. It's not that surprising that eventually they were going to take one in the teeth for that.

In the case of Nightblades specifically, it was more about giving the players more options. Even the Siphoning Strikes change (which is terrible) was intended to give players more ways to play the class.

They're still going to be the single target DPS class, but now they'll have more options for how they want to do that. And, the change to Refreshing Shadows is a part of that. To be honest, if they'd done away with the Stamina Regen buff from it entirely and turned it into some kind of stealth radius down, or increased your medium armor count by 1/2 (up to a limit of 7) skill, I'd still be happy with it, since it would open up the option for more build diversity. A NB with 5pc med, 2pc heavy that still stealths like a pure medium? That'd be interesting.

Or a 3 pc medium, 4pc heavy that has the medium armor 5pc bonuses in effect as a tank?

But, as it is, Refreshing Shadows is more versatile now than before.

...and that was a really weird sleep deprived tangent. Sorry.

PBpsy · July 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

People see minor buffs and nerfs as huge, and major buffs and nerfs as huge. It's a perspective issue.

It is very easy to quantify buffs and nerfs.
Unless a skill is obviously broken beyond reasonable doubt a reasonable balancing buff/nerf is between 5%-30% in the effect they are trying to balance. These are the type of adjustments that actually can balance a game if they are done with care and increased/reduced when needed. This is requires a lot effort , observation and gradual work until some equilibrium meta is achieved and maintained. Probably this equilibrium state wouldn't be completely balanced but it could come close.

Huge nerfs are anything from 50% to the complete removal of some effect mechanic. Huge nerfs completely remove options. These are not balancing adjustments. These are only hasty blind changes in the hope that the game will miraculously fall into some balanced meta. This will never actually happen though. The way the combat design team approaches this game will only lead to continuous never ending sequence of jumps from imbalanced meta to imbalanced meta. This is what we have seen since launch and it is what we will see after IC.

AuldWolf · July 2015

I think this is over-exaggerating and it really is a perspective issue. The thing is is that a developer has to be careful when combating the cancer of min-maxers within their game, and so far I think ZOS has been doing a pretty okay job at it. Now, if you want to see a game where the fight against min-maxers turned into ham-fisted nerfs that absolutely destroyed the game for anyone who wasn't a min-maxer? Check out Champions Online.

We all tried to warn Cryptic that they were balancing wrongly, that this number creep they were falling more and more into was only going to sustain a tiny amount of their playerbase. The day one patch was a massive nerf to try and deal with theorycrafter types, and it hurt everyone, not just the min-maxers with their cookie cutter builds. The only time you should worry is if these nerfs and buffs are really hurting the average player.

So far, I've genuinely been surprised at the refrain they've actually shown. I wouldn't mind betting that there's someone there who studiously reads theorycrafting forums so they know exactly just where to aim a surgical strike with their rapier of justice. And that's how it should be done. You don't attack the fun that people are having, because that's just going to drive everyone away from your game. You specifically go after the min-maxers with your balance patches. Your job is to impede their theorycrafting fun and ruin their day as much as possible.

Sometimes you can have someone with an unfortunately ill-equipped brain (short information pathway, unable to parse all the variables) who'll be arrogant and will believe they know what's needed to make the game RIGHT. That was Cryptic's folly. Every time they picked someone, it was one of these arrogant, self-assured, extroverted people who believed they knew everything. And it hurt them. That's not the kind of person you pick for balancing.

Honestly, looking at their patch notes, I think ZOS knows this. Either that, or they've been really, really lucky. Point is: If you think these nerfs and buffs are huge, they're not, that's just a problem of perspective. You've read about ham-fisted nerfs and buffs in other games and you're just implying that here whenever something hits your character. Frankly, it's a huge difference, with a lot of refrain on their part.

If you want to see some of the worst balancing ever, read the patch notes of Champions Online and understand the unliving horror of it all. Compared to that, this is a walk in the park.

If I don't need to respec my character twice a week, I'm okay. CO was a sobering experience.

Teiji · July 2015

Why do buffs and nerfs always have to be so huge?

"There won't be penalties for grouping with more than 4 people."

Zenimax, I love dearly, but their track record speaks for itself. Very heavy hands.

Just like how when you get an exp bonus for a party of two, but a party of three receives less exp, a party of four receives even less.

I am the exposer of secrets. All your dirty secrets belong unto the people, the plebs shall rise up and have the TESO we deserve!

Thymos · July 2015

@Teiji you'd rather they kept it that way? So people can just form raid groups and just steamroll every ounce of difficulty out of the overworld content?

starkerealm · July 2015

AuldWolf wrote: »

Sometimes you can have someone with an unfortunately ill-equipped brain (short information pathway, unable to parse all the variables) who'll be arrogant and will believe they know what's needed to make the game RIGHT. That was Cryptic's folly.

As I recall, Cryptic's issue wasn't so much arrogance, as petulance on the part of several specific developers. The entire STF overhaul in STO was basically Gozer saying, "You want something to work towards? I'm going to make you choke on it." Combined with naked greed once Perfect World bought them.

And, that was something that leaked over into CO.

All of that, and last I checked, they still hadn't fixed the specialization feedback loop. $:\$

Teiji · July 2015

Thymos wrote: »

@Teiji you'd rather they kept it that way? So people can just form raid groups and just steamroll every ounce of difficulty out of the overworld content?

@Thymos Raid groups could receive diminishing returns on exp depending on the content.

Party groups shouldn't be penalised in such a vicious manner in order to discourage grouping with a party of more than two.

Raid groups in Craglorn received diminishing returns on exp and it made sense.

Does it make sense for a party of three people and a party of four people to receive hard diminishing returns for exp?

Also, I appreciate your reply; but wouldn't it have made more sense for you to say; "Diminishing returns on raid groups was necessary, it was an exploitable loophole which, incidentally, was exploited due to no consequences being available - penalising standard party groups however, in an MMORPG, was a barbaric decision to say the least, I can even recall threads where people would disband groups and go their separate ways due to the diminishing returns."

Several examples of such;

Community members have pleaded, begged even for party groups, not raid groups to not punish them so drastically. Zenimax has yet to comment on party grouping, specifically diminishing exp.