Maintenance for the week of May 18:
· [COMPLETE] NA megaservers for maintenance – May 18, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
· [COMPLETE] EU megaservers for maintenance – May 18, 8:00 UTC (4:00AM EDT) - 13:00 UTC (9:00AM EDT)
The issues on the North American Xbox megaserver have been resolved at this time. If you continue to experience difficulties at login, please restart your client. Thank you for your patience!

Forced grouping is unhealthy. [ZOS, please read. Thank you.]

AuldWolf
AuldWolf
✭✭✭✭✭
I want to say that before I even get into this, I'm not talking about grouping et al. I believe that optional grouping is fine and more power to those that want it. The issue is when grouping is forced. It's playing up to people with vapid personalities, serious social anxiety issues, and attitude problems that would mar the mental health of those they group with. Whenever forced grouping is present, it makes it a right for them to have people with them, and they see it as a privilege for others to solo. It allows them to be lazy.

In a game with optional grouping, it would be up to them to find people who are willing to tolerate them, those who know what they're getting into. The thing is is that others will only end up resenting them, and not wanting to group. Then they'll end up resenting ZOS for actually having forced this pathos upon them instead of being able to go into it informed. If all grouping was optional rather than forced, anyone with issues would have to be up front about any disabilities they have before grouping, which will lead to a more sympathetic grouping environment. I'm autistic, I can freeze in stressful situations, I mention this every time I group with people. I've found that a good amount of those I've grouped with are understanding, but some would rather not have me there. If they don't want me there, that's okay, I'd rather not be around intolerant people.

Sometimes, however, I can't find a group because I'm upfront. So I can't play the content solo. This makes me and people like me resent ZOS and other developers for discrimination. The players aren't the ones creating these unhealthy environments, the developers are. And sure, there are those who won't be perspicacious enough to understand why this is a raw deal. They'll love forcing others to group with them despite their own problems, and that'll result in a miserable environment for everyone. This is why more and more MMOs just don't bother with forced grouping. Look at the latest Final Fantasy MMO and how it's changed its tune since the first Final Fantasy MMO.

With forced grouping, you're telling people that they can force others to group with them and they can be lazy and have ZOS fix all their problems for them. And if they don't want that, then they may find themselves without a group because of discrimination, and they won't be allowed to just enter a dungeon with just one or two other people. For example: I always have one other person to group with, I sometimes have two. I never have three. So I'm invariably under-equipped for a forced group dungeon. My options are to PUG and tell people about my condition, or to ignore the content.

I don't think that's ideal.

I think that the ideal would be the dungeon scaling to not just the level of the people entering, but the amount of people entering as well. So if one or two people entered, it would scale the difficulty to one or two people. This would mean that those with disabilities would have to be as up front and honest as I am, which would lead to a less toxic community. It would also mean that if I can't find a third or fourth, I could just go in with two or three people and complete the dungeon. This is fair to people who aren't as socially equipped as extreme extroverted personalities are. Everyone wins. The only people who would be against this are those who have issues and enjoy forcing others to group with them. That's unhealthy.

It's so unhealthy that it reflects badly upon the game, and it makes the game look like it encourages unhealthy mindsets. So if a person has one of the more notable versions of antisocial personality disorder and they do nothing about it? That's harmful to others, they can still find a group because others will need them to continue. They won't have to learn to behave and stay their antisocial tendencies. It also means that no one would ever be willing to help them.

Again: The solution is so simple. Have forced group dungeons scale to the amount of people entering. Have Craglorn scale to the amount of people playing it. I'm not the only one saying this.

Back in August 2014, there was a polle about whether forced grouping was good or bad. At the time of writing, the poll was a landslide in favour of it being a bad idea, with a majority of 73 per cent. That's not a minority of the players, that's the majority of the demographic. I think most of the demographic playing ESO would prefer it if people had the option to play as their style suits them. If I want to group, then, I can be upfront and see if anyone wants to. If they don't? No skin off my nose, I can still go in with just my friends and happily play. Discrimination doesn't have to harm me, that way.

This has been true for every game that has forced grouping since the dawn of time. It allows a grotesque level of unhealthy behaviour to fester and revel, which turns into a resentment toward the developer. That the Imperial Citadel DLC has two forced grouping dungeons is a slap in the face to people who feel this way. We can't all be born as neurotypical social butterflies. That would be a bad idea, anyway, because without genetic diversity our species would simply flop over into extinction. It's worth recognising that not only are those who don't want to continually forced into grouping exist, but that they also seem to be the majority.

And please note that I'm not demanding anything. I'm not. I'm just making the entirely fair and just point that with optional content rather than forced content, everyone wins. No one loses. And no unhealthy attitudes are encouraged. WoW was a festering ground of horribleness thanks to a pro-forced grouping attitude. Anyone remember Barrens chat? It was terrible. I don't want ESO to be that.

With an optional system, you can choose whether you want to go in as one person, two people, three, or four.

Everyone benefits from this. No one ends up hating other people. I won't end up resenting neurotypical social butterflies, or people who're comfortable with forcing their disabilities on others as though that's their privilege. I won't feel resentment towards ZOS for allowing this to flower into some sort of bloody venus fly trap of noxious doom. At this point, I can only wonder... why didn't this happen patches ago?

As a final addendum I'd also point out that it wouldn't hurt to have optional instanced versions of public dungeons. So if someone as a solo player or a duo wants to go in alone to have a very immersive experience, without having thirty others treading around this 'mysteeerious, ancient, untouched for centuries' cave? Well, there would be an option for that. And everyone would be happy because then everyone could play in the style that makes them comfortable. Sometimes, if they feel it fits the lore of the place, they could go into a public version. If they want an immersive experience, they could take it into a private instance. And this caters to all players except for those who want to make a toxic environment for their own benefit.

The thing is is that I've been off and on taking breaks from ESO to play Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel (Commonwealth vault hunting tickles me pink), and the Skyrim co-op mod. I fell in love with ESO because I genuinely enjoy the gameplay and I think the Aldmeri Dominion's writing is simply divine. I'm always impressed with what I see and I don't like the way that I feel when I encounter a dungeon I won't do out of principle. It's aggravating. And it's pushing me away from ESO. I really wouldn't mind betting that if ESO's numbers are dropping, that's why. Those who come to the game find a co-op Elder Scrolls experience like they've always wanted. Then the forced grouping dungeons and the public dungeons just stick in their craw.

ZOS, you're so close to having the perfect online experience. Don't ruin it by forcing toxicity. Please at least consider having options. That's all I ask. Thank you.
  • Sausage
    Sausage
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Is this about Craglorn? They chose to please the both crowds, Cragorn is group-zone and next Adventure zone is solo. And this is online game after all so people expect group/MMO content, why one wants to make massively single playing online game. Also no-one forces you to do Trials or Dungeons, just become Crafter and you can make good gears. ESO actually gives great opportunity for single players too. Guild Auction Houses are there for everyone to use, you dont need to join one either.
    Edited by Sausage on July 28, 2015 2:37PM
  • Akavir_Sentinel
    Akavir_Sentinel
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sounds like you need a single player RPG. There are other players of every personality type in an MMO, and everyone has to deal with them, not just you.

    ESO is not, and was not meant to be, Skyrim 2, Skyrim Online, or Skyrim With Friends.

    Instanced personal dungeons/delves will never happen. The servers can only barely handle the load as it is, and you want to add 300,000 individual instances to that load?
    Edited by Akavir_Sentinel on July 28, 2015 2:36PM
    Can't find the items you are looking for? Need a place to trade? We welcome ESO players of all platforms at ESO Trade, the home for trading of goods and services in the lands of Tamriel.
  • FilthyMudcrabs
    FilthyMudcrabs
    ✭✭✭
    I couldn't agree more with you! Having always been a solo player - even in MMOs - being forced to group to complete content is extremely off putting.
    Saw a mudcrab the other day. Dreadful creatures.
  • MCMancub
    MCMancub
    ✭✭✭✭
    Sounds like you need a single player RPG. There are other players of every personality type in an MMO, and everyone has to deal with them, not just you.

    Instanced personal dungeons/delves will never happen. The servers can only barely handle the load as it is, and you want to add 300,000 individual instances to that load?

    I agree. This is simply another thread where someone got tired of Skyrim, wanted another Elder Scrolls game, became unhappy when they realized ESO is an MMO (seriously, the next DLC coming this year after IC is a solo zone and OP is complaining about forced grouping), and then decided they'd beg ZOS to cater to their desires.
    Edited by MCMancub on July 28, 2015 2:37PM
  • Psychobunni
    Psychobunni
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sounds like you need a single player RPG. There are other players of every personality type in an MMO, and everyone has to deal with them, not just you.

    ESO is not, and was not meant to be, Skyrim 2, Skyrim Online, or Skyrim With Friends.

    Instanced personal dungeons/delves will never happen. The servers can only barely handle the load as it is, and you want to add 300,000 individual instances to that load?
    ^That.

    There are players that want to play solo, there is content (but not all) for them.

    There are players that don't want to do a single thing solo, there is content (but not all) for them.

    There are players that want to only PVE, there is content (but not all) for them.

    There are players that want to only PVP, there is content (but not all) for them.

    ^This is what an MMO is, offering something for many crowds, but not just one thing.


    If you want a solo game, play a solo game. It is literally that easy.
    If options weren't necessary, and everyone played the same way, no one would use addons. Fix the UI!

  • kalimar44
    kalimar44
    ✭✭✭✭
    It's awfully funny that Everquest was pretty much about grouping, and look now it's still going after 16 years. 16 YEARS!!!!!

    I played EQ and had lots of fun with my groups. People back then could works as a team. People today can't handle stuff like that.

    ESO IS A MMO PEOPLE. At some point you will have to group. Get over it or go play skyrim.
  • Merlin13KAGL
    Merlin13KAGL
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    • Trials
    • DSA (some have soloed with OP builds)
    • VDSA
    • Group Dungeons (keyword here, again, some have soloed w/exception of Vet Grotto)
    • One Crag repeatable (Critical Mass)
    • Three (?) Crag mainline quests...

    You can solo everything else.

    Unless you have put off every individual you come around, groups can be found for almost anything. They may not be ideal, but they're there.

    The world is full of forced tolerance, the very opposite of what you describe as discrimination. Tamriel does not need to follow suite.

    You're not forced to do all the content, whether to advance or otherwise, therefore, you're not forced to group.
    Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...

    Earn it.

    IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.
    I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
    Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS
  • Komma
    Komma
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    This game is so solo friendly that it hardly has a community in game other than guilds. I would like to see 6 and 8 man group dungeons but they need to work on other stuff rather than catering to the opinions of a few.
    Kohma Kozzy-cr160-Stamblade
    Komma-cr160-Magicblade
    Komma the Great-cr160-Stam DK
    Kommah-cr160-Mag DK
    Komma Kozzy-cr160-Mag Templar
    Kommuh Kozzy-cr160-Stam Templar
    Komma the White-cr160-Mag Sorc
    The Tazmanian Devil-cr160-Stamsorc
    OTG
  • traigusb14_ESO2
    traigusb14_ESO2
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Forced grouping is very unhealthy. When I group I forget to drink my Orange Juice... then I get scurvy.
  • Merlin13KAGL
    Merlin13KAGL
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    What if your groupmates help remind you, @traigusb14_ESO2?

    Scurvy's the worst.
    Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...

    Earn it.

    IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.
    I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
    Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS
  • traigusb14_ESO2
    traigusb14_ESO2
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    What if your groupmates help remind you, @traigusb14_ESO2?

    Scurvy's the worst.

    They tell me to drink Mountain Dew and beer. My guild is the worst!
  • Pangnirtung
    Pangnirtung
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I completely agree!

    I would love to see instanced dungeons where at the moment it is grouped only.

    This would make far, far better use of the resources in Tamriel.

    For those that argue that the servers are overloaded already, do you think that given the choice with over loaded servers and lots of happy customers or under loaded servers and fewer gamers what they would choose?

    No way ZOS wants to turn players away from the game. It's that mentality again of "it's an MMO damnit and you have to play my way or play Skyrim" again. This game is bigger than one play style.

    Instanced solo dungeons please.
  • JokerMoment
    JokerMoment
    ✭✭✭
    Wasted so much time of my life reading this.
    Sorry, I don't agree with any of it.
  • BaconMagic
    BaconMagic
    ✭✭✭
    There is no 'discrimination' in a private intellectual property. I'm tired of hearing this. It is a published work of art, no different than a movie, book or a painting. The publisher is under ZERO legal requirement to not offend you. Please people, stop using discrimination as a catch phrase to complain about a video game. Don't buy it, don't play it, don't even think about it.
  • Flaminir
    Flaminir
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    I feel like my car company is forcing me to use a steering wheel....

    I want to use handlebars, but they are forcing me to use this wheel whenever I drive my car...

    I know that if I wanted to use handlebars I should go ride a bike, and that cars naturally are designed for steering wheels... but anyway... reasons... FORD please fix!
    GM of the Unholy Legacy
    PC/EU/EP
  • asteldian
    asteldian
    ✭✭✭✭
    I have issue with forced grouping for no reason such as Craglorn where the group requirement is totally artificial.
    But actual group content I have no problem with because that is the primary point of MMOs. I am aware the modern gamer expects to be able to play solo to max level, and so be it. But actual group content is exactly that - none of the real group content actually requires a full group, it is merely designed for it (again, take note Craglorn - design for a group is fine, artificial requirement is BS), so you are not forced to do it with 4 and indeed it all can be done without 4.

    If you wish to play alone or with very few for any reason, you can but it means not being able to do some content and that is just a fact of MMO life.
  • MCMancub
    MCMancub
    ✭✭✭✭
    asteldian wrote: »
    I have issue with forced grouping for no reason such as Craglorn where the group requirement is totally artificial.
    But actual group content I have no problem with because that is the primary point of MMOs. I am aware the modern gamer expects to be able to play solo to max level, and so be it. But actual group content is exactly that - none of the real group content actually requires a full group, it is merely designed for it (again, take note Craglorn - design for a group is fine, artificial requirement is BS), so you are not forced to do it with 4 and indeed it all can be done without 4.

    If you wish to play alone or with very few for any reason, you can but it means not being able to do some content and that is just a fact of MMO life.

    The reason you're forced to be grouped in Craglorn is because they wanted to make a zone only for group content. That's it. Too bad if you don't like it.

    This is the same line of thinking as all of the PvE players whining over I.C. being a PvP DLC...
  • dabulls7491
    dabulls7491
    ✭✭✭
    Then dont play an mmo...
  • Curtischoy
    Curtischoy
    ✭✭
    That is a really twisted view of grouping in MMOs. No one is shoving you into a cage with these people.
    kalimar44 wrote: »
    It's awfully funny that Everquest was pretty much about grouping, and look now it's still going after 16 years. 16 YEARS!!!!!

    I played EQ and had lots of fun with my groups. People back then could works as a team. People today can't handle stuff like that.

    ESO IS A MMO PEOPLE. At some point you will have to group. Get over it or go play skyrim.


    And this. I played EQ for 10 years and completely agree.
  • Egg_Death
    Egg_Death
    ✭✭
    First off, I agree with forced grouping for certain content. It is not a new thing to MMOs and you don't have any right to request what you are suggesting. You are very responsible and considerate for being up-front about your condition, and that is admirable behavior to say the least (quite gallant compared to most online interactions). My experience has been overwhelmingly positive in forced-grouping activities in this game and in Destiny (which didn't even have a group finder). Heck, in Destiny I even had a good time randomly helping out a group get into the first raid (public entrance area) on several occasions (I'm such a stand up guy). I came across many others who took extra time to Sherpa groups through difficult raid content, for no reward (limit of one loot set per week). To make it a massively solo online RPG would rob me and everyone else of many fun experiences working with others. I and I'm sure many others would have no problem (most of the time) grouping with you. If anything it adds to the challenge and makes for an interesting war story, unlike the dozens of other "we ran the dungeon exactly how we did it last time and didn't really get the loot we wanted" stories.

    I do need to correct you on one account, though. People who do not want to play with you are not being discriminatory in the bad sense of the word. I don't know how long some difficult content can take in this game (a relative newb myself), but you have to understand the perspective of a group of busy adults with only a few hours of play time a night. If your freeze-ups cost the group wipe after wipe on a boss, you may very well prevent them from completing the content. That happened to me a few times in Destiny after 4+ hour attempts at a hard-mode raid the night before reset. In that game some fight mechanics would put a random person in a critical role, so even the best of players could fail for hours if one or two people were not up to par for the content.

    Kudos to you for being up-front about yourself, but why bother if you then judge people for acting on the information? Would you group with a new parent who might have to suddenly disconnect in the middle of a dungeon? What about an ER surgeon who is on call? You are not discriminating if you decide that you would rather play with someone else.

    If anything you highlight the need for a special group finder for people who need more understanding from other players.
  • Emma_Overload
    Emma_Overload
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Did anybody actually read the OP before spouting off the usual "go play Skyrim" nonsense?

    OP is not asking for grouping to be removed from the game. He is not asking for ESO to be turned into a single player game like Skyrim. He is only asking for some consideration to be made toward players who prefer to play solo at least some of the time.

    I've read every single dumb post made in this thread and every other thread on this subject because I believe the grouping problem is ESO's most tragic flaw, and it's worth arguing for a solution. Consider the OP's suggestion:
    The solution is so simple. Have forced group dungeons scale to the amount of people entering. Have Craglorn scale to the amount of people playing it. I'm not the only one saying this.

    That's a great idea, and many of us have been asking for this scheme since ESO launched. Why can't we have this simple concession? What's the big deal? It would make the endgame SO much more enjoyable for thousands of players. What's the problem? What does it cost you? Groupers will still be able to play the game the way they always do... why do YOU care if solo players have fun, too?

    Edited by Emma_Overload on July 28, 2015 4:17PM
    #CAREBEARMASTERRACE
  • MCMancub
    MCMancub
    ✭✭✭✭
    Did anybody actually read the OP before spouting off the usual "go play Skyrim" nonsense?

    OP is not asking for grouping to be removed from the game. He is not asking for ESO to be turned into a single player game like Skyrim. He is only asking for some consideration to be made toward players who prefer to play solo at least some of the time.

    I've read every single dumb post made in this thread and every other thread on this subject because I believe the grouping problem is ESO's most tragic flaw, and it's worth arguing for a solution. Consider the OP's suggestion:
    The solution is so simple. Have forced group dungeons scale to the amount of people entering. Have Craglorn scale to the amount of people playing it. I'm not the only one saying this.

    That's a great idea, and many of us have been asking for this scheme since ESO launched. Why can't we have this simple concession? What's the big deal? It would make the endgame SO much more enjoyable for thousands of players. What's the problem? What does it cost you? Groupers will still be able to play the game the way they always do... why do YOU care if solo players have fun, too?

    What OP wants is for options that allow you to play through all of ESO by yourself or in co-op if you wanted to (essentially Skyrim 2.0, Skyrim Online, or Skyrim with Friends). MMOs by definition are not catering to that audience. We called out OP on this. That's all.
    Edited by MCMancub on July 28, 2015 4:29PM
  • VoidBlue
    VoidBlue
    ✭✭✭✭
    forced grouping would be a lot better if there was Text Chat atleast on consoles IMO.
  • amgame308_ESO
    amgame308_ESO
    ✭✭✭
    Sorry but if you have trouble with group content MMOs are not for you. I may want to play in the NBA but they are not going to lower the rims for me because I can't dunk anymore.

    Life is hard for everyone and it is not anyone's fault you have problems with grouping. There are hundreds of other gaming options for disabled players who cannot hear or have social anxiety.

    Seriously, asking the entire MMO industry to cater to single player experience is quite selfish.
  • BurtFreeman
    BurtFreeman
    ✭✭✭
    mmo is first of all a social game.
    it is not a surprise to me see any kind of human been beheaviour populating tamriel: the good and the bed.
    i'm agree with this long post and because of my perception of life i will like to see more solidarity in this game.
    anyway we have a strong tool for reaching this goal: the guild.
    there are almost any possibilities with a guild, but if zos will drive few social official guilds (bodyguard, mentor, beginner....), anybody could be partecipate and feel fine: who role play good character could be satisfied, so the mate that need an help.
    then, the guild ranks could give some advantage at those who are helping gamers, some kind of degree or whatever, just to involve more people in the process.
    never leave alone or behind your neigbour.

    good friend, good game.
  • Tandor
    Tandor
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    kalimar44 wrote: »
    It's awfully funny that Everquest was pretty much about grouping, and look now it's still going after 16 years. 16 YEARS!!!!!

    I played EQ and had lots of fun with my groups. People back then could works as a team. People today can't handle stuff like that.

    ESO IS A MMO PEOPLE. At some point you will have to group. Get over it or go play skyrim.

    The reason EQ is still going is that they made all classes soloable and introduced mercenaries.

    I'm all for grouping being a feature of MMOs, but it should be optional and not forced. Games need to cater for all playstyles to compete in an overcrowded marketplace. When EQ launched it was pretty much the only one of its kind, being quite different from UO, and with other MMOs like AC and DAoC following on from it. In those days grouping was the dominant playstyle because of the way the games were structured, and people had the time to devote to that playstyle which they tend not to have so much today so that catering for duos and soloers makes a lot of sense while keeping the groupers happy too. I have no wish to impose my playstyle on others, but I also have no wish for them to impose their playstyle on me. Provide options, that's the key to a popular and successful game. It should be possible on that basis to level through a game with any preferred playstyle, especially with all the "play your way" marketing hype that gets pushed at us these days.
    Edited by Tandor on July 28, 2015 4:43PM
  • DenMoria
    DenMoria
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I understand where the original OP is coming from. My experiences with Grouping on ESO have been disasterous. It's not because I'm antisocial or have anxiety or anything like that, it's just that so many folks are complete a**h***s. My issue is that I will not speak to anyone else. I know it's terrible, but I have a very bad temper and can be incredibly cruel and nasty and I don't want anyone else to have to deal with that. I can listen though.

    As I move forward with my current build, I am going to take to heart the good advice that has been given here on the forum and stick with Guild Mates.

    Apparently there are a number of great guilds out there and, to the OP, I would try to join a few. I am sure that folks will be understanding and helpful.

    Also, I have found that, on the whole, most of the folks on the EU are a whole lot more mature and less hostile than on the NA servers. The trade off is that there area a whole lot less folks on the EU than on the NA so grouping can get a bit tricky.

    Just my thoughts. I too come from a single-player RPGs, but I want to learn.
  • MCMancub
    MCMancub
    ✭✭✭✭
    Tandor wrote: »
    kalimar44 wrote: »
    It's awfully funny that Everquest was pretty much about grouping, and look now it's still going after 16 years. 16 YEARS!!!!!

    I played EQ and had lots of fun with my groups. People back then could works as a team. People today can't handle stuff like that.

    ESO IS A MMO PEOPLE. At some point you will have to group. Get over it or go play skyrim.

    The reason EQ is still going is that they made all classes soloable and introduced mercenaries.

    I'm all for grouping being a feature of MMOs, but it should be optional and not forced. Games need to cater for all playstyles to compete in an overcrowded marketplace. When EQ launched it was pretty much the only one of its kind, being quite different from UO, and with other MMOs like AC and DAoC following on from it. In those days grouping was the dominant playstyle because of the way the games were structured, and people had the time to devote to that playstyle which they tend not to have so much today so that catering for duos and soloers makes a lot of sense while keeping the groupers happy too. I have no wish to impose my playstyle on others, but I also have no wish for them to impose their playstyle on me. Provide options, that's the key to a popular and successful game. It should be possible on that basis to level through a game with any preferred playstyle, especially with all the "play your way" marketing hype that gets pushed at us these days.

    Except this isn't true at all. The biggest game genre right now is the MOBA genre, and it is 100% group play. You can easily find groups and not have to spend as much time as you do in MMOs, but that doesn't deter from the fact that what you just said is wrong.

    PLENTY of games focus on one major playstyle and do just fine. We are not in an age of gaming where all games have to cater to all playstyles to survive. In fact, we see the opposite. If a game doesn't appeal to you, simply go play one that does.
    Edited by MCMancub on July 28, 2015 4:53PM
  • Curtischoy
    Curtischoy
    ✭✭
    This game is already so solo-able and duo-able it is nuts.
  • UrQuan
    UrQuan
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wow. OP, you're making a lot of assumptions.
    AuldWolf wrote: »
    The issue is when grouping is forced. It's playing up to people with vapid personalities, serious social anxiety issues, and attitude problems that would mar the mental health of those they group with. Whenever forced grouping is present, it makes it a right for them to have people with them, and they see it as a privilege for others to solo. It allows them to be lazy.
    What? Seriously, what? How in the world are you coming to this conclusion? I've met quite a few people in-game with social anxiety issues, and without exception their attitude has been completely different from what you describe here. All of the ones that I've chatted with have simply avoided doing any group content with anyone who they don't know - which generally means that they don't do any of that content except with guildies who they feel comfortable will be OK with taking them through it. Not sure exactly what you mean by "people with vapid personalities" but as far as those with "attitude problems" go, I've seen a few folks who refused to play nice with other members of a group get warned and either shape up or get kicked from the group for it, so in my experience they don't get "to be lazy" as you say either.
    AuldWolf wrote: »
    In a game with optional grouping, it would be up to them to find people who are willing to tolerate them, those who know what they're getting into.
    It still is, because you can always choose who you're grouped with. You end up with someone who's a problem in one way or another, and you can kick them or drop the group. When people realize this (which hopefully wouldn't take people that long to grasp) they should learn to be up front about these things and work on getting groups that can work with them. I know a few people in-game who are always very upfront about the difficulties they have in group content due to various conditions that they have, and thanks to being upfront about it we've had some good (and fun) group dungeon runs - if they weren't as upfront about it, then I'm sure it would have gone much more poorly.
    AuldWolf wrote: »
    The thing is is that others will only end up resenting them, and not wanting to group. Then they'll end up resenting ZOS for actually having forced this pathos upon them instead of being able to go into it informed.
    What? That makes no sense because, again, you can always choose not to group with a particular person if you have issues with them. Why would anyone resent ZOS for having a bad experience with a particular player?
    AuldWolf wrote: »
    If all grouping was optional rather than forced, anyone with issues would have to be up front about any disabilities they have before grouping, which will lead to a more sympathetic grouping environment. I'm autistic, I can freeze in stressful situations, I mention this every time I group with people. I've found that a good amount of those I've grouped with are understanding, but some would rather not have me there. If they don't want me there, that's okay, I'd rather not be around intolerant people.
    As has already been said in this thread, it may not be at all about being intolerant. Some people have limited gaming time and are hoping to get a particular dungeon or whatever done in a particular amount of time. If they'd rather not be in a group with you because of that, it doesn't make them intolerant - it just makes them short on time.
    AuldWolf wrote: »
    Sometimes, however, I can't find a group because I'm upfront. So I can't play the content solo. This makes me and people like me resent ZOS and other developers for discrimination.
    ZOS isn't discriminating against you. For one reason or another everyone sometimes has trouble finding a group, and while some of the content can't be done solo, the vast vast majority of content can. You don't have to do all content in the game, and if there's some content that sometimes you can't end up doing, but other times you can get a group together to do it, that's not discrimination.
    AuldWolf wrote: »
    The players aren't the ones creating these unhealthy environments, the developers are. And sure, there are those who won't be perspicacious enough to understand why this is a raw deal. They'll love forcing others to group with them despite their own problems, and that'll result in a miserable environment for everyone. This is why more and more MMOs just don't bother with forced grouping. Look at the latest Final Fantasy MMO and how it's changed its tune since the first Final Fantasy MMO.
    This is more of the same fallacy. Nobody can force someone else to group with them. You can randomly end up in a group with someone who may have issues, but it's always up to you whether you're OK with staying in that group, or with the other person staying in that group. Nobody is ever forced to group with any particular other person.
    AuldWolf wrote: »
    With forced grouping, you're telling people that they can force others to group with them and they can be lazy and have ZOS fix all their problems for them.
    No, you're really not, because it doesn't work that way.
    AuldWolf wrote: »
    And if they don't want that, then they may find themselves without a group because of discrimination, and they won't be allowed to just enter a dungeon with just one or two other people. For example: I always have one other person to group with, I sometimes have two. I never have three. So I'm invariably under-equipped for a forced group dungeon. My options are to PUG and tell people about my condition, or to ignore the content.
    Again, if people don't want to group with you it may or may not have anything to do with discrimination. Also, most group content (maybe all? There's some group content I haven't tried this with, so I can't say for sure) definitely allows you to enter with fewer than the expected number of people in your group. Before the group dungeons scaled, I soloed a few of them that I was over-leveled for, and even since scaling I've 2-manned and 3-manned a bunch of them.
    AuldWolf wrote: »
    I don't think that's ideal.

    I think that the ideal would be the dungeon scaling to not just the level of the people entering, but the amount of people entering as well. So if one or two people entered, it would scale the difficulty to one or two people.
    That would be nice. I'd like to see that too. It wouldn't work well (or at all) with all of the group content, though, because some of the fight mechanics require a certain number of people to complete.
    AuldWolf wrote: »
    This would mean that those with disabilities would have to be as up front and honest as I am, which would lead to a less toxic community.
    It wouldn't mean that at all. Nothing can or would force people to be upfront about stuff like that. If this was introduced it would be the same situation as it is now: the people who have disabilities and other issues could either be upfront about them or not, as they choose.
    AuldWolf wrote: »
    It would also mean that if I can't find a third or fourth, I could just go in with two or three people and complete the dungeon. This is fair to people who aren't as socially equipped as extreme extroverted personalities are. Everyone wins. The only people who would be against this are those who have issues and enjoy forcing others to group with them. That's unhealthy.
    Again, nobody can force someone to group with them in this game...
    AuldWolf wrote: »
    It's so unhealthy that it reflects badly upon the game, and it makes the game look like it encourages unhealthy mindsets. So if a person has one of the more notable versions of antisocial personality disorder and they do nothing about it? That's harmful to others, they can still find a group because others will need them to continue. They won't have to learn to behave and stay their antisocial tendencies. It also means that no one would ever be willing to help them.
    This is all completely untrue, because if people have such harmful personalities and aren't willing to learn to behave, then everyone else is free not to group with them (or, more likely, stay grouped with them). You can always drop and find other people to group with.
    AuldWolf wrote: »
    Again: The solution is so simple. Have forced group dungeons scale to the amount of people entering. Have Craglorn scale to the amount of people playing it. I'm not the only one saying this.
    Again, I'd like to see this for some of the group content, but it wouldn't work for all of it, and there should always be some content that requires a certain number of people to work together as a team. As long as that content isn't required in order to progress, then it's fine, because you don't have to do every single piece of content in the game (for example: if the main quest required you to group to complete it, that would be bad, but having completely optional content that requires a group is fine - it may not be for everyone, but that's OK).
    Caius Drusus Imperial DK (DC)
    Bragg Ironhand Orc Temp (DC)
    Neesha Stalks-Shadows Argonian NB (EP)
    Falidir Altmer Sorcr (AD)
    J'zharka Khajiit NB (AD)
    Isabeau Runeseer Breton Sorc (DC)
    Fevassa Dunmer DK (EP)
    Manut Redguard Temp (AD)
    Tylera the Summoner Altmer Sorc (EP)
    Svari Snake-Blood Nord DK (AD)
    Ashlyn D'Elyse Breton NB (EP)
    Filindria Bosmer Temp (DC)
    Vigbjorn the Wanderer Nord Warden (EP)
    Hrokki Winterborn Breton Warden (DC)
    Basks-in-the-Sunshine Argonian Temp
    Someone stole my sweetroll
Sign In or Register to comment.