Infinite Balancing Issues vs Introduction of Skill Cooldowns

Phoenix99 · July 2015

TagaParti wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

I've been pointing this out since 1.6 hit the client... the CPs, no caps, etc just killed the PvP game... it is a spam fest...

There is little skill dependency and huge gear and CP dependency...

Each competitive PvP game has BOTH resource management, where the passive regens are not skyrocket high (with exception of for example gaining super high regen through some huge kill streak, but then you increase the 'price' on your head), AND they have cooldowns on top of that, to make sure that skills are used to gain tactical advantage, and if you miscast/misplace, and your enemy has better placement, or still most of his skills active, then you are at tactical disadvantage...

Look at SC2 and RTS genre, Look at MOBAs, look at WoW - the only MMORPG game which is remotely in the area of e-sports, and finally look even at FPS games, which resources management goes into grenades/consumables/ammo, and Cooldowns are technically weapon kickback and reload times.

EVERY SINGLE COMPETITIVE AND FUN PVP GAME HAS COOLDOWNS AND MEANINGFUL RESOURCE MANAGEMENT!!!

Diablo3 had spamfest with ridiculous skill dependency on gear, and its PvP died before it was born...

those games with spam fest and little resource issues can be fun in terms of PvE, but they simply are unable to feature a good and fun PvP experience.

EXACTLY
The idea of having no cooldown is awesome, but it creates lots of problems.
That idea is for the purpose of making the PVP fun, and now look at it destroy the fun.
A spamfest, which 1 faction use to do lagfest.
Zergs who spams a lot and rolling like a train into everyone.
This is not the game that will bring fun to pro gamers and newcomers alike.
But once they introduce cooldown, I cant tell how much fun it will be to PVP.

I mean as much as I would love to see this solution, there is little chance for it to happen, cause they would have to overhaul the whole thing... they can however set up hard caps on regen in PvP (like 600-700) and double all the costs of single target skills and triple of the AoE skills with exception of heals, which would get doubled in cost.

Obviously the skill cost increases would have to be checked and tweaked, but both things need to happen to reduce the spam and put more emphasis on better positioning and timing of skills usage... Also MUTE the CPs in PvP

I am fairly sure in can be done via battleleveling server script, so your PvE would get unchanged

ToRelax · July 2015

I am just trying to imagine LoL with healing that exceeds damage, a large pool of abilities to choose from and a limit of 100+ players per faction on the same map... sounds like some awesome balance indeed.

Phoenix99 · July 2015

ToRelax wrote: »

I am just trying to imagine LoL with healing that exceeds damage, a large pool of abilities to choose from and a limit of 100+ players per faction on the same map... sounds like some awesome balance indeed.

If the map size is bigger to suit that, there are no AoE caps and no free CC immunity, then blocking, positional awareness, spacing etc, actually would matter, same as not getting out of position and no more 1v10...

skills would require some balancing in terms of numbers, but that is definitely doable... alternatively - hard cap regens in PvP at around 600-700, mute CPs in PvP and increase the cost of skills significantly in PvP, so while you will not get actual cooldowns and will be able to use the same skills more than once in short time frame, spamming skills will just drain you of resources FAST and you will not have endless regen.. it would be a quasi cooldown system based on the very high cost vs regen ratio principle. Item builds and skill builds would still be relevant (with exception of passive regens).

trimsic_ESO · July 2015

Erondil wrote: »

You clearly didnt understand the point of a ressource based gameplay : the amount of skill you can use isnt dicted by cooldowns but by a limited ressource pool, with skills more or less expensive as a CD game got skills with differents cooldown.
The problem atm isnt that there is no cooldown, but that eso is supposed to be a ressource based game, and ressources are unlimited for almost everybody (no soft cap, cp, many multiplicative values...).

I disagree. The concept of resource based gameplay actually does not work, at least in Cyrodiil. And I'm more and more convinced that it might never work.

The concept of resource based gameplay does not prevent players from abusing an ability, just by chain casting that ability.

ZOS had to nerf Bolt Escape several times, and will do nerf it again in the next patch. Still, I'm pretty sure that some sorcs will find a way to chain cast that ability despite the new extra cost.

ZOS had to nerf a game mechanic allowing magicka builds to chain their ultimates, especially vampire ultimates.

ZOS is now about to nerf the dodge roll ability, giving it an extra cost when used multiple times. But this fix will badly nerf stamina players who have almost no other means to mitigate damage but dodge roll, since most defensive skills are class skills and use magicka.

Which ability will come next?

As said in the OP, the risk is high that people always find an ability that becomes over powered when they chain cast it.

Don't misunderstand me: I do appreciate the freedom of a resource based game play over the constraints of a cool down based game play. But I think that it will take a very long time before it's balanced, if it ever get balanced.

ewhite106b16_ESO · July 2015

I don't want to see ESO turned into a MOBA like DOTA 2, smite or LOL, MMOs and e-sports never mixed in the first place. Incidentally, balance has been WORSE on MMO PVP with cooldowns then what I've seen here. Either putting in cooldowns, or nerfing regen to the point where players can seldom cast abilities and mostly rely on light/heavy attack would make combat incredibly boring and not really worth the bother.

Basic melee combat would have to be drastically enhanced via something like a combo system or mount and blade directional attacks/blocking to be enjoyable with reduced ability use.

TagaParti · July 2015

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

You clearly didnt understand the point of a ressource based gameplay : the amount of skill you can use isnt dicted by cooldowns but by a limited ressource pool, with skills more or less expensive as a CD game got skills with differents cooldown.
The problem atm isnt that there is no cooldown, but that eso is supposed to be a ressource based game, and ressources are unlimited for almost everybody (no soft cap, cp, many multiplicative values...).

I disagree. The concept of resource based gameplay actually does not work, at least in Cyrodiil. And I'm more and more convinced that it might never work.

The concept of resource based gameplay does not prevent players from abusing an ability, just by chain casting that ability.

ZOS had to nerf Bolt Escape several times, and will do nerf it again in the next patch. Still, I'm pretty sure that some sorcs will find a way to chain cast that ability despite the new extra cost.

ZOS had to nerf a game mechanic allowing magicka builds to chain their ultimates, especially vampire ultimates.

ZOS is now about to nerf the dodge roll ability, giving it an extra cost when used multiple times. But this fix will badly nerf stamina players who have almost no other means to mitigate damage but dodge roll, since most defensive skills are class skills and use magicka.

Which ability will come next?

As said in the OP, the risk is high that people always find an ability that becomes over powered when they chain cast it.

Don't misunderstand me: I do appreciate the freedom of a resource based game play over the constraints of a cool down based game play. But I think that it will take a very long time before it's balanced, if it ever get balanced.

You're totally right.

But I think it will never become balance unless they overhaul the
whole resource-based gameplay or whatever they call it.
It is easier to call as spamfest which is the twin sister of
lagfest.

You pointed it out so right, skills are getting nerf so that noone
can spam then, they did but players found a way to make it still
spammable, and zos will hit those skills again with nerf hammer.
But a skill that cant be spammed in a spamfest gameplay will
totally be useless, noone will bother to put it in a skill bar.

I guess theyre reading this, and hopefully they arent the rigid
for the sake of competitive pvp. They may choose to make
PVE remain the same, but PVP needs a change. The Cooldowns!

ToRelax · July 2015

Phoenix99 wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

I am just trying to imagine LoL with healing that exceeds damage, a large pool of abilities to choose from and a limit of 100+ players per faction on the same map... sounds like some awesome balance indeed.

If the map size is bigger to suit that, there are no AoE caps and no free CC immunity, then blocking, positional awareness, spacing etc, actually would matter, same as not getting out of position and no more 1v10...

skills would require some balancing in terms of numbers, but that is definitely doable... alternatively - hard cap regens in PvP at around 600-700, mute CPs in PvP and increase the cost of skills significantly in PvP, so while you will not get actual cooldowns and will be able to use the same skills more than once in short time frame, spamming skills will just drain you of resources FAST and you will not have endless regen.. it would be a quasi cooldown system based on the very high cost vs regen ratio principle. Item builds and skill builds would still be relevant (with exception of passive regens).

Taking away the choice of a regen build, thus force everyone to spec into max damage is not the way to go, no.
We have way too much build resources, potential stats that we can freely use, that's the problem (and getting worse every day with the CS). Not, that we can use them so freely.

ewhite106b16_ESO wrote: »

I don't want to see ESO turned into a MOBA like DOTA 2, smite or LOL, MMOs and e-sports never mixed in the first place. Incidentally, balance has been WORSE on MMO PVP with cooldowns then what I've seen here. Either putting in cooldowns, or nerfing regen to the point where players can seldom cast abilities and mostly rely on light/heavy attack would make combat incredibly boring and not really worth the bother.

Basic melee combat would have to be drastically enhanced via something like a combo system or mount and blade directional attacks/blocking to be enjoyable with reduced ability use.

*MMORPG. It's not the same.

xaraan · July 2015

I'd rather see them go the way of bolt escape and dodge rolling to all skills instead of just flat cool downs. Have an increase that keeps getting bumped up for spamming. BUT that will not work with the small skill bar they have now. Too many players end up having builds that give them only one active skill on their main bar (since weapon swap isn't dependable, doesn't matter what's on your second bar IMO). But it's unfair to tell players they get penalized for casting the same attack over and over when you don't give them the ability to slot several options without compromising their build (and greatly limiting the variety of builds in the game).

TagaParti · July 2015

xaraan wrote: »

I'd rather see them go the way of bolt escape and dodge rolling to all skills instead of just flat cool downs. Have an increase that keeps getting bumped up for spamming. BUT that will not work with the small skill bar they have now. Too many players end up having builds that give them only one active skill on their main bar (since weapon swap isn't dependable, doesn't matter what's on your second bar IMO). But it's unfair to tell players they get penalized for casting the same attack over and over when you don't give them the ability to slot several options without compromising their build (and greatly limiting the variety of builds in the game).

Truth is, you will no longer make a build with 1 skill active on 1 bar if there is cooldown.
The main reason why some players made that build was to have some sort
of defense at all times, coz weapon swap will be delayed and it
will lead to their death. Connection or ping for players outside
US simply sucks thats why we have a bit of delay. And if skills
can be spammed endlessly as fast as you can then those with
delays due to connection was put into greater disadvantages.
If theres cooldown, after your enemy hit you with a burst skill
you will have time to swap coz you know he cant hit you with that
skill again for few seconds. Cooldowns would simply solve
all these issues regarding PvP.

Septimus_Magna · July 2015

This game is fun because it doesnt have cooldowns but resource management, cooldowns would make it very boring because we only have 2x 5 skills and 1 ultimate to active.

Sure some infinite resource builds are problems but thats only because their damage is still oke. If you have infinite resources your damage should be terrible. And if you have max damage your resource management should be terrible.

I think we have to wait and see how the upcoming changes are going to play out. Stamina sustain will be harder for medium/heavy armor builds, magicka sustain will be more difficult for sorcs and health sustain might be easier for everyone because of the reduced damage in PVP.

I highly doubt we will see many infinite resource builds with the perma dodge-roll/block/streak nerfs. All infinite resource builds used one of those 3 methods to sustain resources.

ToRelax · July 2015

TagaParti wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

I'd rather see them go the way of bolt escape and dodge rolling to all skills instead of just flat cool downs. Have an increase that keeps getting bumped up for spamming. BUT that will not work with the small skill bar they have now. Too many players end up having builds that give them only one active skill on their main bar (since weapon swap isn't dependable, doesn't matter what's on your second bar IMO). But it's unfair to tell players they get penalized for casting the same attack over and over when you don't give them the ability to slot several options without compromising their build (and greatly limiting the variety of builds in the game).

Truth is, you will no longer make a build with 1 skill active on 1 bar if there is cooldown.
The main reason why some players made that build was to have some sort
of defense at all times, coz weapon swap will be delayed and it
will lead to their death. Connection or ping for players outside
US simply sucks thats why we have a bit of delay. And if skills
can be spammed endlessly as fast as you can then those with
delays due to connection was put into greater disadvantages.
If theres cooldown, after your enemy hit you with a burst skill
you will have time to swap coz you know he cant hit you with that
skill again for few seconds. Cooldowns would simply solve
all these issues regarding PvP.

Cooldowns would put players with higher ping at a greater disadvantage because timing would matter more. Spamming only one ability does not make it any harder to play with high ping because your character executes them client side.

Aunatar · July 2015

Very small internal cooldowns: no more screenshoot/macro cheating

Lava_Croft · July 2015

The only thing that really needs to be done is to make players actually adhere to the animations that are played when using a certain skill. The game was designed to work this way, but this went a bit awry when people found out about animation cancelling.

I love animation cancelling for the added layer of depth, but I hate it for how it makes ESO's reliance on animations acting as cooldowns basically useless.

TagaParti · July 2015

All of us who played the game from day 1 embraced the resource-management system.
And after a year, let us all be honest to ourselves, did we enjoy spamming buttons?
Can we consider ourselves as one of the best gamers?
The system which was meant to be fun only proved itself that all it can give was balancing problems.
After a year, it gave the game some serious server issues, 24/7 complains which forced the devs
to alter some skills, nerfs and fixes update after update, and in the end it still gives more
problems rather than making the game balance.
Let's be honest to ourselves, we love the game but these problems will never be fixed.
Next update was a proof that something is terribly wrong with resource based combat system
not having skill cooldown. In fact, right from the start, the ultimate utilizes some form of cooldown
system, to make it balance. And thats the only thing that will make it all balanced.

We may say they just have to adjust recoveries and all that, but it wont make any difference,
like i said, in a spamfest system all skills will be useless if they cant be spammed.
They willnever succeed to make players not spam skills, they got resources they have to spam
as they can. The solution is, change the system!

Soulac · July 2015

Sure cooldowns are good - as long as you got enough skillchoices and action bars / slots.
I'd like to use many different dmg or healing skills in a battle and also time my abilities, but eso don't give you a choice to do it.
First you'd need to add like the triple amount of skills and also increase the slots otherwise it's just boring light attacking until the cooldown run off.
The system right now is not really balanced, but adding cooldowns right now will make it worse than it already is.
Grab the problem at the root and give ressource management a meaning.
Skill spam will still exists, but if you can run out of ressources you won't have these incredible long and boring fights anymore.

Raizin · July 2015

Cinbri wrote: »

Huh?! Try to play Templar, you will quickly discover what is this thing called Resource Management.

so true..

Rune_Relic · July 2015

Erondil wrote: »

You clearly didnt understand the point of a ressource based gameplay : the amount of skill you can use isnt dicted by cooldowns but by a limited ressource pool, with skills more or less expensive as a CD game got skills with differents cooldown.
The problem atm isnt that there is no cooldown, but that eso is supposed to be a ressource based game, and ressources are unlimited for almost everybody (no soft cap, cp, many multiplicative values...).

Nail.. head.

Docmandu · July 2015

All these cooldown clowns need to pack up their sh.t and go back to WoW !

Rune_Relic · July 2015

Docmandu wrote: »

All these cooldown clowns need to pack up their sh.t and go back to WoW !

ESO already has cooldowns.
Animation cancelling destroyed it.

OdinForge · July 2015

Darnathian wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Cooldowns are not the answer, balancing the costs of some skills would go a long way. Removing permablocking (a meta Sheliza is all about) from the game should in theory also go a long way to growing build variety. Permablocking is the one meta that forces the others against the wall, it breeds FoTM builds like what you see with NB and fear. It's builds that do damage while also mitigating most incoming damage, that force people to scrap unique build ideas.

We haven't even seen the LOS check fix in the next patch yet, why don't we wait to see what ZOS found before spouting nonsense.

Well you can't have it both ways. Lol. The response to DKs not having a escape ability because we are "Tanky" then let us be tanks. If you take away blocking ( no stamina regeneration) then give us a Damn escape.

God I am so sick of that. This stupid and Inconcieved nerf is one of the final nails in the coffin. All because the ttk wasn't enough for some elitists. This game is just another step closer to 2 classes. Sorcs and nb.

You could have just found another target to kill. Instead of whining you couldn't, wait for it, BREAK A TANK on a, wait for it, TANK.

I'm of the opinion that every class should have some type of unique escape mechanic (maybe not as effective as NB or Sorc, but available nonetheless). Aside from calling out OP (who happens to be one of the many DK who abused permablocking) i never explicitly stated only the DK class, because the fact is it's a meta that any class can currently perform (I'm willing to bet my NB can out-permablock anyone) and some classes can even escape while doing it. But it all started with DK, everyone intentionally rolled a DK for the first 8 months of this game to take advantage of how stupidly overpowered it obviously was, so i have little mercy for this class.

All I'm saying is that as a NB there are many build ideas that I've experimented with that don't involve cheesy hard CC like fear. And it's all fine and dandy until a typical magicka based whip DK strolls around hitting you through dodge and mitigating all your damage, to crap on your work and then escape with mist form.. How I'd love to try so many of my build ideas in a version of this game where i don't have to worry about permablocking. Obviously DK is the most common class for this, which is why it gets tossed around. The DK class isn't dead, the game is going to change and new builds will come out.

You wanna "tank" in PvP, that's cool. No one rolled a DK to just tank, they rolled DK to 1vx like the cool kids. I don't wanna hear jack squat about resource management, DK has built in resource management. The fact they can manage their magicka while using a melee weapon is absurd. Try playing a stamina build pre 1.6 and then talk to me about resource management.

Xael · July 2015

So far I have seen:
give us cooldowns on skills

OdinForge wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Cooldowns are not the answer, balancing the costs of some skills would go a long way. Removing permablocking (a meta Sheliza is all about) from the game should in theory also go a long way to growing build variety. Permablocking is the one meta that forces the others against the wall, it breeds FoTM builds like what you see with NB and fear. It's builds that do damage while also mitigating most incoming damage, that force people to scrap unique build ideas.

We haven't even seen the LOS check fix in the next patch yet, why don't we wait to see what ZOS found before spouting nonsense.

Well you can't have it both ways. Lol. The response to DKs not having a escape ability because we are "Tanky" then let us be tanks. If you take away blocking ( no stamina regeneration) then give us a Damn escape.

God I am so sick of that. This stupid and Inconcieved nerf is one of the final nails in the coffin. All because the ttk wasn't enough for some elitists. This game is just another step closer to 2 classes. Sorcs and nb.

You could have just found another target to kill. Instead of whining you couldn't, wait for it, BREAK A TANK on a, wait for it, TANK.

I'm of the opinion that every class should have some type of unique escape mechanic (maybe not as effective as NB or Sorc, but available nonetheless). Aside from calling out Sheliza (who happens to be one of the many DK who abused permablocking) i never explicitly stated only the DK class, because the fact is it's a meta that any class can currently perform (I'm willing to bet my NB can out-permablock anyone) and some classes can even escape while doing it. But it all started with DK, everyone intentionally rolled a DK for the first 8 months of this game to take advantage of how stupidly overpowered it obviously was, so i have little mercy for this class.

All I'm saying is that as a NB there are many build ideas that I've experimented with that don't involve cheesy hard CC's like fear. And it's all fine and dandy until a typical magicka based whip DK strolls around hitting you through dodge and mitigating all your damage, to crap on your work and then escape with mist form.. How I'd love to try so many of my build ideas in a version of this game where i don't have to worry about permablocking. Obviously DK is the most common class for this, which is why it gets tossed around. The DK class isn't dead, the game is going to change and new builds will come out.

Well said.
Aside from the lag and coding of the game, the only major problem (I see) are the players. Especially those that get on the forum and whine about things they don't understand. The one thing they all have in common is they immediately remove themselves from the equation and begin finger pointing. It's become even worse since it re-launched under the b2p platform as many people came back from long absences. Even worse now are those who are buying it dirt cheap on sites like g2a, greenman, etc and showing up and stinking the place up with their ridiculous misunderstanding. Add the console crowd and it's even worse. I can't tell you how many threads I see with clueless new players giving these ridiculous 'matter of fact' rants about what's overpowered, broken, or needed to "fix" pvp. It's turned these forums from a toilet into a sewer.

Phoenix99 · July 2015

To be honest 2 bars with 5+ult skills is A LOT of skills... people just want to have their tried method of spamming one button still function...

you might build for one trick pony, or you might decide to forgo a bit of dps or sustain and have various alternatives... it is your choice then...

now there are few viable builds among classes, because you build for one dps spam button and skills that grant you active and passive buffs, plus mobility/escape plus heal/shield...

OdinForge · July 2015

Xael wrote: »

So far I have seen:
give us cooldowns on skills

OdinForge wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Cooldowns are not the answer, balancing the costs of some skills would go a long way. Removing permablocking (a meta Sheliza is all about) from the game should in theory also go a long way to growing build variety. Permablocking is the one meta that forces the others against the wall, it breeds FoTM builds like what you see with NB and fear. It's builds that do damage while also mitigating most incoming damage, that force people to scrap unique build ideas.

We haven't even seen the LOS check fix in the next patch yet, why don't we wait to see what ZOS found before spouting nonsense.

Well you can't have it both ways. Lol. The response to DKs not having a escape ability because we are "Tanky" then let us be tanks. If you take away blocking ( no stamina regeneration) then give us a Damn escape.

God I am so sick of that. This stupid and Inconcieved nerf is one of the final nails in the coffin. All because the ttk wasn't enough for some elitists. This game is just another step closer to 2 classes. Sorcs and nb.

You could have just found another target to kill. Instead of whining you couldn't, wait for it, BREAK A TANK on a, wait for it, TANK.

I'm of the opinion that every class should have some type of unique escape mechanic (maybe not as effective as NB or Sorc, but available nonetheless). Aside from calling out Sheliza (who happens to be one of the many DK who abused permablocking) i never explicitly stated only the DK class, because the fact is it's a meta that any class can currently perform (I'm willing to bet my NB can out-permablock anyone) and some classes can even escape while doing it. But it all started with DK, everyone intentionally rolled a DK for the first 8 months of this game to take advantage of how stupidly overpowered it obviously was, so i have little mercy for this class.

All I'm saying is that as a NB there are many build ideas that I've experimented with that don't involve cheesy hard CC's like fear. And it's all fine and dandy until a typical magicka based whip DK strolls around hitting you through dodge and mitigating all your damage, to crap on your work and then escape with mist form.. How I'd love to try so many of my build ideas in a version of this game where i don't have to worry about permablocking. Obviously DK is the most common class for this, which is why it gets tossed around. The DK class isn't dead, the game is going to change and new builds will come out.

Well said.
Aside from the lag and coding of the game, the only major problem (I see) are the players. Especially those that get on the forum and whine about things they don't understand. The one thing they all have in common is they immediately remove themselves from the equation and begin finger pointing. It's become even worse since it re-launched under the b2p platform as many people came back from long absences. Even worse now are those who are buying it dirt cheap on sites like g2a, greenman, etc and showing up and stinking the place up with their ridiculous misunderstanding. Add the console crowd and it's even worse. I can't tell you how many threads I see with clueless new players giving these ridiculous 'matter of fact' rants about what's overpowered, broken, or needed to "fix" pvp. It's turned these forums from a toilet into a sewer.

You hit it on the nail there, so many DKs complaining about nerfs after they spent months intentionally enjoying a god-mode class. Only to start complaining about other classes like NB who never had much of a leg to stand on in the past, people will just roll whatever class gets them success at any current point in time. Some people who rolled DK and thought they could ride the bus, confused as to how to proceed past the next patch. But there are some standout DK out there, that have embraced new play styles and succeed.

Xael · July 2015

OdinForge wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

So far I have seen:
give us cooldowns on skills

OdinForge wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Cooldowns are not the answer, balancing the costs of some skills would go a long way. Removing permablocking (a meta Sheliza is all about) from the game should in theory also go a long way to growing build variety. Permablocking is the one meta that forces the others against the wall, it breeds FoTM builds like what you see with NB and fear. It's builds that do damage while also mitigating most incoming damage, that force people to scrap unique build ideas.

We haven't even seen the LOS check fix in the next patch yet, why don't we wait to see what ZOS found before spouting nonsense.

Well you can't have it both ways. Lol. The response to DKs not having a escape ability because we are "Tanky" then let us be tanks. If you take away blocking ( no stamina regeneration) then give us a Damn escape.

God I am so sick of that. This stupid and Inconcieved nerf is one of the final nails in the coffin. All because the ttk wasn't enough for some elitists. This game is just another step closer to 2 classes. Sorcs and nb.

You could have just found another target to kill. Instead of whining you couldn't, wait for it, BREAK A TANK on a, wait for it, TANK.

I'm of the opinion that every class should have some type of unique escape mechanic (maybe not as effective as NB or Sorc, but available nonetheless). Aside from calling out Sheliza (who happens to be one of the many DK who abused permablocking) i never explicitly stated only the DK class, because the fact is it's a meta that any class can currently perform (I'm willing to bet my NB can out-permablock anyone) and some classes can even escape while doing it. But it all started with DK, everyone intentionally rolled a DK for the first 8 months of this game to take advantage of how stupidly overpowered it obviously was, so i have little mercy for this class.

All I'm saying is that as a NB there are many build ideas that I've experimented with that don't involve cheesy hard CC's like fear. And it's all fine and dandy until a typical magicka based whip DK strolls around hitting you through dodge and mitigating all your damage, to crap on your work and then escape with mist form.. How I'd love to try so many of my build ideas in a version of this game where i don't have to worry about permablocking. Obviously DK is the most common class for this, which is why it gets tossed around. The DK class isn't dead, the game is going to change and new builds will come out.

Well said.
Aside from the lag and coding of the game, the only major problem (I see) are the players. Especially those that get on the forum and whine about things they don't understand. The one thing they all have in common is they immediately remove themselves from the equation and begin finger pointing. It's become even worse since it re-launched under the b2p platform as many people came back from long absences. Even worse now are those who are buying it dirt cheap on sites like g2a, greenman, etc and showing up and stinking the place up with their ridiculous misunderstanding. Add the console crowd and it's even worse. I can't tell you how many threads I see with clueless new players giving these ridiculous 'matter of fact' rants about what's overpowered, broken, or needed to "fix" pvp. It's turned these forums from a toilet into a sewer.

You hit it on the nail there, so many DKs complaining about nerfs after they spent months intentionally enjoying a god-mode class. Only to start complaining about other classes like NB who never had much of a leg to stand on in the past, people will just roll whatever class gets them success at any current point in time. Some people who rolled DK and thought they had they could ride the bus, confused as to how to proceed past the next patch. But there are some standout DK out there, that have embraced new play styles and succeed.

I've been saying it for a over a year now, give me any class and I will kill tons of people with it no problem. Any player that has a grasp of mechanics and map awareness is going to do well with just about anything. While we will all have a preference, that's not to say other classes are bad or not as good.
Honestly though, if I had DK leveled up, I could easily (lag aside) make Cyrodiil a plastic f***-toy. This nonsense about DKs being weak is laughable. They are the one class I consistently see groups of people taking time to bring down.

Erondil · July 2015

TagaParti wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

You clearly didnt understand the point of a ressource based gameplay : the amount of skill you can use isnt dicted by cooldowns but by a limited ressource pool, with skills more or less expensive as a CD game got skills with differents cooldown.
The problem atm isnt that there is no cooldown, but that eso is supposed to be a ressource based game, and ressources are unlimited for almost everybody (no soft cap, cp, many multiplicative values...).

Resource Management?
You can say that when there is resources issue.
But there are no more resources issue!

And thats the problem, not the lack of cooldowns. There are too many multoplicatives values for a game wothout softcaps, and skills are all way too cheap. In 1.5, I had to deal with 120 magicka regen and a concelead weapon cost of ~210 while now, 1.5 magicka regen and 1.4k concelead weapon cost without even trying to reduce it. Not even talking about 1.0 where the regen softcap was around 80...
I dont want a game with cooldowns, I want a game where skill cost actually means something.

Xael · July 2015

Erondil wrote: »

TagaParti wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

You clearly didnt understand the point of a ressource based gameplay : the amount of skill you can use isnt dicted by cooldowns but by a limited ressource pool, with skills more or less expensive as a CD game got skills with differents cooldown.
The problem atm isnt that there is no cooldown, but that eso is supposed to be a ressource based game, and ressources are unlimited for almost everybody (no soft cap, cp, many multiplicative values...).

Resource Management?
You can say that when there is resources issue.
But there are no more resources issue!

And thats the problem, not the lack of cooldowns. There are too many multoplicatives values for a game wothout softcaps, and skills are all way too cheap. In 1.5, I had to deal with 120 magicka regen and a concelead weapon cost of ~210 while now, 1.5 magicka regen and 1.4k concelead weapon cost without even trying to reduce it. Not even talking about 1.0 where the regen softcap was around 80...
I dont want a game with cooldowns, I want a game where skill cost actually means something.

Even this is problematic.
You jack up the cost of everything (add the future damage reduction) and then everyone becomes a defensive tank build of sorts. Thanks, you just pigeonholed us back into where everyone was the same (1hs/resto/impen/Light Armor).
This idea where you can nerf everything into balance is utter ***. It's a neverending cycle of imbalance.

TagaParti · July 2015

Xael wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

TagaParti wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

You clearly didnt understand the point of a ressource based gameplay : the amount of skill you can use isnt dicted by cooldowns but by a limited ressource pool, with skills more or less expensive as a CD game got skills with differents cooldown.
The problem atm isnt that there is no cooldown, but that eso is supposed to be a ressource based game, and ressources are unlimited for almost everybody (no soft cap, cp, many multiplicative values...).

Resource Management?
You can say that when there is resources issue.
But there are no more resources issue!

And thats the problem, not the lack of cooldowns. There are too many multoplicatives values for a game wothout softcaps, and skills are all way too cheap. In 1.5, I had to deal with 120 magicka regen and a concelead weapon cost of ~210 while now, 1.5 magicka regen and 1.4k concelead weapon cost without even trying to reduce it. Not even talking about 1.0 where the regen softcap was around 80...
I dont want a game with cooldowns, I want a game where skill cost actually means something.

Even this is problematic.
You jack up the cost of everything (add the future damage reduction) and then everyone becomes a defensive tank build of sorts. Thanks, you just pigeonholed us back into where everyone was the same (1hs/resto/impen/Light Armor).
This idea where you can nerf everything into balance is utter ***. It's a neverending cycle of imbalance.

That is what im talking about. Infinite Imbalance. They can try to fix but problems will arise from it.
Only Cooldowns can solve all these issues.

Xael · July 2015

TagaParti wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

TagaParti wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

You clearly didnt understand the point of a ressource based gameplay : the amount of skill you can use isnt dicted by cooldowns but by a limited ressource pool, with skills more or less expensive as a CD game got skills with differents cooldown.
The problem atm isnt that there is no cooldown, but that eso is supposed to be a ressource based game, and ressources are unlimited for almost everybody (no soft cap, cp, many multiplicative values...).

Resource Management?
You can say that when there is resources issue.
But there are no more resources issue!

And thats the problem, not the lack of cooldowns. There are too many multoplicatives values for a game wothout softcaps, and skills are all way too cheap. In 1.5, I had to deal with 120 magicka regen and a concelead weapon cost of ~210 while now, 1.5 magicka regen and 1.4k concelead weapon cost without even trying to reduce it. Not even talking about 1.0 where the regen softcap was around 80...
I dont want a game with cooldowns, I want a game where skill cost actually means something.

Even this is problematic.
You jack up the cost of everything (add the future damage reduction) and then everyone becomes a defensive tank build of sorts. Thanks, you just pigeonholed us back into where everyone was the same (1hs/resto/impen/Light Armor).
This idea where you can nerf everything into balance is utter ***. It's a neverending cycle of imbalance.

That is what im talking about. Infinite Imbalance. They can try to fix but problems will arise from it.
Only Cooldowns can solve all these issues.

You could not be more incorrect.

eliisra · July 2015

Cinbri wrote: »

Huh?! Try to play Templar, you will quickly discover what is this thing called Resource Management.

Stamina sustain yes. Stam templars are struggling with stamina management, compared to NB, for example. Magicka templars will struggle even more. It's the lack of movement and escape that forces you to block/dodge/sprints a lot more than you're average player, really heavy on the stamina pool, while templars only skill towards stamina recovery got nerfed hard.

Magicka resource management tho, I mean what is that? I can mindlessly spam Breath of Life 100 times in a row right now. Channelled Focus adds almost 500 recovery on top of your already wacked out recovery and cost reduction. It's pretty ridiculous.

Topic: I can agree that adding cool-downs would solve a lot of balancing issues. Ultimate easy fix. But would need bigger action bars or more skills slot for sure or the game would be Elder Heavy Attack Online and boring as ***. Than we need a built in macro system blah-blah, because your average gamer+ consoler cant master 30+ keybinds. We be playing a completely different game.

Darnathian · July 2015

OdinForge wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Cooldowns are not the answer, balancing the costs of some skills would go a long way. Removing permablocking (a meta Sheliza is all about) from the game should in theory also go a long way to growing build variety. Permablocking is the one meta that forces the others against the wall, it breeds FoTM builds like what you see with NB and fear. It's builds that do damage while also mitigating most incoming damage, that force people to scrap unique build ideas.

We haven't even seen the LOS check fix in the next patch yet, why don't we wait to see what ZOS found before spouting nonsense.

Well you can't have it both ways. Lol. The response to DKs not having a escape ability because we are "Tanky" then let us be tanks. If you take away blocking ( no stamina regeneration) then give us a Damn escape.

God I am so sick of that. This stupid and Inconcieved nerf is one of the final nails in the coffin. All because the ttk wasn't enough for some elitists. This game is just another step closer to 2 classes. Sorcs and nb.

You could have just found another target to kill. Instead of whining you couldn't, wait for it, BREAK A TANK on a, wait for it, TANK.

I'm of the opinion that every class should have some type of unique escape mechanic (maybe not as effective as NB or Sorc, but available nonetheless). Aside from calling out OP (who happens to be one of the many DK who abused permablocking) i never explicitly stated only the DK class, because the fact is it's a meta that any class can currently perform (I'm willing to bet my NB can out-permablock anyone) and some classes can even escape while doing it. But it all started with DK, everyone intentionally rolled a DK for the first 8 months of this game to take advantage of how stupidly overpowered it obviously was, so i have little mercy for this class.

All I'm saying is that as a NB there are many build ideas that I've experimented with that don't involve cheesy hard CC like fear. And it's all fine and dandy until a typical magicka based whip DK strolls around hitting you through dodge and mitigating all your damage, to crap on your work and then escape with mist form.. How I'd love to try so many of my build ideas in a version of this game where i don't have to worry about permablocking. Obviously DK is the most common class for this, which is why it gets tossed around. The DK class isn't dead, the game is going to change and new builds will come out.

You wanna "tank" in PvP, that's cool. No one rolled a DK to just tank, they rolled DK to 1vx like the cool kids. I don't wanna hear jack squat about resource management, DK has built in resource management. The fact they can manage their magicka while using a melee weapon is absurd. Try playing a stamina build pre 1.6 and then talk to me about resource management.

Good points. However, a night blade shouldn't be able to take out a heavy armor wearing tank with a shield. Come on man. The nb class is designed to be a assassin. They should strike and if they fail run away. Which they are good at. I think the problem with pvpers, myself included, is we want balance on one on ones where there shouldn't be any.

Go play a first person shooter. This game, and the skills, are designed for group play. How to synergize within the confines of the group. I can't believe people use the word Zerg in this game. Seriously? This game was designed for massive scale pvp. Not battlegrounds. You want that join the dueling guild.

What has got us down this path, is when people complain they can't kill a class or slot something to counter another ability, and they make further changes which make it more unbalanced.

In my opinion, they should focus on balancing the game towards the four classes together as a group. Not solo play. That is not what this game is suppose to be. The end result of trying to cater to the everyone complaining they can't kill x class is this.