Infinite Balancing Issues vs Introduction of Skill Cooldowns

TagaParti

More than a year have passed and this awesome game is still stucked in 1 aspect. BALANCE!
In all game that introduced player vs player, the most important thing was balance combat mechanics.
The concept of no cooldown of skills was accepted by the players community at first, devs tried their
best to address issues, but in more than 1 year we did not achieve anything near the concept of
balanced PVP. Every update, changes, buffs, nerfs and fixes, comes with a new set of issues.
New issues are inevitable, players will continue to find ways to outplay others, whether utilizing skills
or taking advantage of a broken combat system. And this will be infinite problem as long as there
are no restrictions to how and when anyone can use a skill. This problem will take forever til the game
dies, never will be considered in the eSports category. I will mention 1 game for the sake of showing
how a balanced combat system can take the game to 1 of the best games in an extreme competitive
nature. DOTA 2! Yearly, there is 1 big tournament for this game, the 1st with a Grand Prize of 1 million
USD, last year was 5 million, and this year it reached 17 million and it may reached 20 million before
the tournament starts. The games success solely rely on its balance combat mechanics.

At first I dreamed of ESO as the next big thing in eSports, but after a year I cant even imagine it.
The combat system to be honest is pretty bad. I am fan, I love the game, but there are changes need
to be done. The combat experience even turned into something very funny for pro gamers outside
ESO. Players chasing a tumbling lone enemy, frustrating new and veteran players alike. There are no
skills required, just a spam of a button and there you are, youre as good as anyone. There was no
timing required.

Havent they figured out yet, that introducing a cooldown is a necessity. The concept of cooldown was
originally born out of balance concept for competitive games. With cooldown, everyone will need to
be very smart when or how they use their skills. The forum itself was a big proof of imbalance that the
game has unintentionally offered. Everyday in a year, there are always complains, with valid reasons
as to why they complain. It will never end like a permablocker who will never drop a block forever.
Introduction of cooldown will deal with all these balance issues. And the only thing that need to be
adjusted uponplayers feedback will be the cooldown timer to skills. Easy to say, but truth is its
hard to implement. But when we think for the future of the game's combat system, cooldown is needed.

The next update with increase cost to successive bolt escape or dodge roll is somewhat similar
to introducing cooldown, wherein players have to take into account their next cast of the skill.
Hopefully we are moving towards it, the introduction of CD!

Gyudan

Step 1: Remove classes.
Step 2 : Enjoy a balanced game.

Erondil

You clearly didnt understand the point of a ressource based gameplay : the amount of skill you can use isnt dicted by cooldowns but by a limited ressource pool, with skills more or less expensive as a CD game got skills with differents cooldown.
The problem atm isnt that there is no cooldown, but that eso is supposed to be a ressource based game, and ressources are unlimited for almost everybody (no soft cap, cp, many multiplicative values...).

Morvul

Erondil wrote: »

You clearly didnt understand the point of a ressource based gameplay : the amount of skill you can use isnt dicted by cooldowns but by a limited ressource pool, with skills more or less expensive as a CD game got skills with differents cooldown.
The problem atm isnt that there is no cooldown, but that eso is supposed to be a ressource based game, and ressources are unlimited for almost everybody (no soft cap, cp, many multiplicative values...).

this!

TagaParti

Erondil wrote: »

You clearly didnt understand the point of a ressource based gameplay : the amount of skill you can use isnt dicted by cooldowns but by a limited ressource pool, with skills more or less expensive as a CD game got skills with differents cooldown.
The problem atm isnt that there is no cooldown, but that eso is supposed to be a ressource based game, and ressources are unlimited for almost everybody (no soft cap, cp, many multiplicative values...).

Resource Management?
You can say that when there is resources issue.
But there are no more resources issue!

Cinbri

Huh?! Try to play Templar, you will quickly discover what is this thing called Resource Management.

Soulac

I don't want to light attack my enemy until my CD for my only viable dps skill is up again.
In my opinion cooldowns and ressource management together were perfect, but you don't have enough ability bars or slots and let's not talk about the amount skills.
I'd rather have many different dmg or support skills, making fights less predictable, than having one skill and spam the *** out of it.

You can't simply put cooldowns in eso, that's not how it works, rather change something at the unlimited ressources.
I'm seriously tired of standing somewhere spamming the same skill over and over without any consequences..

Emma_Overload

1) Nobody cares about eSports. It's right up there with "professional" poker. It's just s--t to fill up a tier of useless Cable TV channels.

2) Cooldowns would RUIN the snappy, immersive combat that makes ESO awesome and unique.

Please don't turn ESO into a crappy WoW or LoL clone just because PvP is a mess.

GaldorP

Skill cooldowns would be an easy way to improve balancing and make PvP more about the strategic use of skills (and make light and heavy attacks and blocking/bashing/dodgerolling at the right time more important as well), solve problems like Bolt Escape spam, dodgeroll spam, fear spam, talons spam, etc., and possibly reduce lag in PvP (no spamming of AoE abilities anymore).

It would really change the solo gameplay in PvE as well though, for some builds (thinking of my bombard spamming solo PvE build here, for example).

I'm not saying introducing cooldowns for all skills is the way ESO should go, but it would be an easy way to solve some balancing issues which can't all be solved with the increasing resource cost upon re-use penalty (wait until people realize how strong Bolt Escape and dodgerolling still will be in the Imperial City where there's walls and corners everywhere that can break line of sight).

Ultimates basically have cooldowns already (the mechanic is very similar).

Most games with skill cooldowns also have resource cost, btw. (and as somebody has already pointed out, with the right gear, class, and Champion passives, resource cost can pretty much be negated for some skills or actions like dodgerolling).

In ESO, you have 10 skills + 2 ultimates. Now think of games like Diablo 3 (6 skills) or most MOBAs where you have only 4 skills. These games have both resource cost and cooldowns. I don't think the number of skills in ESO per se is too low for a cooldown mechanic.

TagaParti

GaldorP wrote: »

Skill cooldowns would be an easy way to improve balancing and make PvP more about the strategic use of skills (and make light and heavy attacks and blocking/bashing/dodgerolling at the right time more important as well), solve problems like Bolt Escape spam, dodgeroll spam, fear spam, talons spam, etc., and possibly reduce lag in PvP (no spamming of AoE abilities anymore).

It would really change the solo gameplay in PvE as well though, for some builds (thinking of my bombard spamming solo PvE build here, for example).

I'm not saying introducing cooldowns for all skills is the way ESO should go, but it would be an easy way to solve some balancing issues which can't all be solved with the increasing resource cost upon re-use penalty (wait until people realize how strong Bolt Escape and dodgerolling still will be in the Imperial City where there's walls and corners everywhere that can break line of sight).

Ultimates basically have cooldowns already (the mechanic is very similar).

Most games with skill cooldowns also have resource cost, btw. (and as somebody has already pointed out, with the right gear, class, and Champion passives, resource cost can pretty much be negated for some skills or actions like dodgerolling).

In ESO, you have 10 skills + 2 ultimates. Now think of games like Diablo 3 (6 skills) or most MOBAs where you have only 4 skills. These games have both resource cost and cooldowns. I don't think the number of skills in ESO per se is too low for a cooldown mechanic.

You got it all right!
With skills other than class skills that are all available for everyone,
there can be too many options for a viable build, specially the combination
of skills.

With the current state of the game, we can really have so many
builds to choose from but the fact is there can onny be few viable
builds for each class, stamina or magicka. All builds right now share
the same concept, dps or sustain! No other things!

Just choose the highest damage dealing skill and make a build
that will make it hit even harder or make it spammable with nearly
negligible cost.

ToRelax

Balancing in ESO is crap not because we are missing cooldowns but because ZOS/combat team/whoever are responsible are incompetent and don't know their own game.

Ryuho

#bringsoftcapsback thank you

Soulac

Ryuho wrote: »

#bringsoftcapsback thank you

Soft caps alone won't change anything at all.
Well except you start them very soon, but this won't end very well in my opinion.
If pushing beyond softcaps has barely any effect,they will just aim for getting everything that softcap. Always nice to have 95% of the player base running the same build..

Derra

If you were introduce cooldowns you have to basically redesign all skills and morphs aswell as the skilltrees. You´d still need a dps skill that you´re spamming all day bc thats how diablo and other cooldowns based games work too...

It´s simply too complicated.

OdinForge

Cooldowns are not the answer, balancing the costs of some skills would go a long way. Removing permablocking (a meta Sheliza is all about) from the game should in theory also go a long way to growing build variety. Permablocking is the one meta that forces the others against the wall, it breeds FoTM builds like what you see with NB and fear. It's builds that do damage while also mitigating most incoming damage, that force people to scrap unique build ideas.

We haven't even seen the LOS check fix in the next patch yet, why don't we wait to see what ZOS found before spouting nonsense.

Rosveen

MMOs aren't suited for eSports unless they're built for them from the ground up. Historicall, they tend to have a lot of balance issues which come both from the complexity of gameplay and continuous progression in a persistent world. This is difficult to solve even in PvP-focused games, but ESO isn't one. PvP and PvE share skills and gear, so any iteration aimed at balancing PvP automatically affects PvE. This could potentially lead even to ruining key aspects of high level PvE gameplay. Moreover, creating supervised competitive PvP modes would require resources ZOS doesn't have. They're already slow with content development and they have no clue how to code the LFG system - so how would they do proper matchmaking?

I don't think ESO ever had any real chance of becoming an eSport.

Vis

TagaParti wrote: »

Havent they figured out yet, that introducing a cooldown is a necessity. The concept of cooldown was originally born out of balance concept for competitive games. With cooldown, everyone will need to
be very smart when or how they use their skills.

I tried. I really did. But it was about here where I, just, couldn't, go, on...



Let's be more creative with our solutions, shall we?

Phoenix99

I've been pointing this out since 1.6 hit the client... the CPs, no caps, etc just killed the PvP game... it is a spam fest...

There is little skill dependency and huge gear and CP dependency...

Each competitive PvP game has BOTH resource management, where the passive regens are not skyrocket high (with exception of for example gaining super high regen through some huge kill streak, but then you increase the 'price' on your head), AND they have cooldowns on top of that, to make sure that skills are used to gain tactical advantage, and if you miscast/misplace, and your enemy has better placement, or still most of his skills active, then you are at tactical disadvantage...

Look at SC2 and RTS genre, Look at MOBAs, look at WoW - the only MMORPG game which is remotely in the area of e-sports, and finally look even at FPS games, which resources management goes into grenades/consumables/ammo, and Cooldowns are technically weapon kickback and reload times.

EVERY SINGLE COMPETITIVE AND FUN PVP GAME HAS COOLDOWNS AND MEANINGFUL RESOURCE MANAGEMENT!!!

Diablo3 had spamfest with ridiculous skill dependency on gear, and its PvP died before it was born...

those games with spam fest and little resource issues can be fun in terms of PvE, but they simply are unable to feature a good and fun PvP experience.

BigTone

Honestly at this point I'm up for anything that reduces the spam-fest which will reduce the lag-fest. Cut all regen numbers in half if you have to, just figure out something.

Reznique

The reason why MOBAs(Dota 2, LOL, Hon etc), CS G.O. and Starcraft 2 are considered E-sports is because there is "no-end" game at all. Every match, you start all over again and have NO insta advantage over your enemies. Everyone has the same (or very similar) amount of initial resources and conditions and therefore the only thing that makes you win is skill (& brains ofc)

However, ESO is a MMO. It involves farming and long term progression of your character. Players are differentiated in terms of not only skill, but also gear and champion points.
This game is also is so full with 'carebears' that bombarding ZOS with requests which aim to potentially remove the need to have any skill at all. When Cataclysm DLC came out of WOW, many players have left the game because they made the game 'easier'.

MMOs will never become a recognised E-Sport game genre just because their style is very much different to be competitive.

I do agree that PVP in Cyrodil is very unbalanced and that it needs fixing, but there is a difference- balance to make the game competitive cybersportwise, or balance to make the game fun to play.

TBois

Balancing is always something that needs tweaking constantly. I like the no cool down system but I do think regens with drink need to be culled. Zos will continue to work on balance just as in every mmo, and there are some promising changes coming in the next patch

Xael

TagaParti wrote: »

More than a year have passed and this awesome game is still stucked in 1 aspect. BALANCE!
In all game that introduced player vs player, the most important thing was balance combat mechanics.
The concept of no cooldown of skills was accepted by the players community at first, devs tried their
best to address issues, but in more than 1 year we did not achieve anything near the concept of
balanced PVP. Every update, changes, buffs, nerfs and fixes, comes with a new set of issues.
New issues are inevitable, players will continue to find ways to outplay others, whether utilizing skills
or taking advantage of a broken combat system. And this will be infinite problem as long as there
are no restrictions to how and when anyone can use a skill. This problem will take forever til the game
dies, never will be considered in the eSports category. I will mention 1 game for the sake of showing
how a balanced combat system can take the game to 1 of the best games in an extreme competitive
nature. DOTA 2! Yearly, there is 1 big tournament for this game, the 1st with a Grand Prize of 1 million
USD, last year was 5 million, and this year it reached 17 million and it may reached 20 million before
the tournament starts. The games success solely rely on its balance combat mechanics.

At first I dreamed of ESO as the next big thing in eSports, but after a year I cant even imagine it.
The combat system to be honest is pretty bad. I am fan, I love the game, but there are changes need
to be done. The combat experience even turned into something very funny for pro gamers outside
ESO. Players chasing a tumbling lone enemy, frustrating new and veteran players alike. There are no
skills required, just a spam of a button and there you are, youre as good as anyone. There was no
timing required.

Havent they figured out yet, that introducing a cooldown is a necessity. The concept of cooldown was
originally born out of balance concept for competitive games. With cooldown, everyone will need to
be very smart when or how they use their skills. The forum itself was a big proof of imbalance that the
game has unintentionally offered. Everyday in a year, there are always complains, with valid reasons
as to why they complain. It will never end like a permablocker who will never drop a block forever.
Introduction of cooldown will deal with all these balance issues. And the only thing that need to be
adjusted uponplayers feedback will be the cooldown timer to skills. Easy to say, but truth is its
hard to implement. But when we think for the future of the game's combat system, cooldown is needed.

The next update with increase cost to successive bolt escape or dodge roll is somewhat similar
to introducing cooldown, wherein players have to take into account their next cast of the skill.
Hopefully we are moving towards it, the introduction of CD!

This is probably one of the worst things I have read in my history of using this forum.

First off you are wrong to jump on a balance bandwagon when the game doesn't even run smooth. They have spent the past year trying to get their game stable and at the same time tweaking things (to keep people happy) and adding new content here and there to keep people happy. All the while trying to catch up to what the game should have been at release.

"The concept of no cooldown of skills was accepted by the players community at first,"
Implying that we don't accept it now? Who the hell do you think you speak for? Certainly not the majority, you speak for yourself here. Knock it off. Elder Scrolls games don't have cooldowns, they also don't have classes. A true statement would be "The concept of classes was accepted by the players community..."

You talk about balance in the rest of your paragraph and then use a MOBA (rofl...) to compare to an MMORPG. Wow. Nothing you mentioned in this paragraph regarding patches, tweaks, nerfs, imbalances, has anything to do with cooldowns. Nothing at all. Comparing DotA to ESO is absurd. It's like comparing a basketball to a tennis racket. Both are used in sports, but they are not the same thing nor are they in the same genre.

Your next paragraph is more drivel about cooldowns and how they bring balance to a game. Guess what? No singles MMO in the history of MMOs has achieved balance since the class system was introduced to MMOs. It's not skills that break games, but class based systems. Since Everquest the first class based MMORPG, gaming has followed this paradigm with the exception of Shadowbane and Darkfall, and not a single MMO since has ever achieved balance. Not one. Even World of Warcraft, the most successful MMORPG ever, a juggernaut with the financial backing of Blizzard AND Activision, still to this day has never achieved balance. So spare us this nonsense about cooldowns bringing about balance. It's a lie. The truth is, you are not successful at PvP and you feel like you need a crutch in the form of cooldowns.

For the record, a no cooldown system is one of the last things keeping people playing this game. It's what separates this game from the rest of the clones. The day CDs are implemented is the day the majority of PvPers quit this game. Terrible idea.

Joy_Division

I don't agree with this at all. Cooldowns have to be the most lazy and unrealistic mechanism ever.

Problem is infinite resources

Forztr

Joy_Division wrote: »

I don't agree with this at all. Cooldowns have to be the most lazy and unrealistic mechanism ever.

Problem is infinite resources

I'd say animation cancelling was more unrealistic, getting the effect of the ability without actually performing the ability seems lame to me.

TagaParti

Phoenix99 wrote: »

I've been pointing this out since 1.6 hit the client... the CPs, no caps, etc just killed the PvP game... it is a spam fest...

There is little skill dependency and huge gear and CP dependency...

Each competitive PvP game has BOTH resource management, where the passive regens are not skyrocket high (with exception of for example gaining super high regen through some huge kill streak, but then you increase the 'price' on your head), AND they have cooldowns on top of that, to make sure that skills are used to gain tactical advantage, and if you miscast/misplace, and your enemy has better placement, or still most of his skills active, then you are at tactical disadvantage...

Look at SC2 and RTS genre, Look at MOBAs, look at WoW - the only MMORPG game which is remotely in the area of e-sports, and finally look even at FPS games, which resources management goes into grenades/consumables/ammo, and Cooldowns are technically weapon kickback and reload times.

EVERY SINGLE COMPETITIVE AND FUN PVP GAME HAS COOLDOWNS AND MEANINGFUL RESOURCE MANAGEMENT!!!

Diablo3 had spamfest with ridiculous skill dependency on gear, and its PvP died before it was born...

those games with spam fest and little resource issues can be fun in terms of PvE, but they simply are unable to feature a good and fun PvP experience.

EXACTLY
The idea of having no cooldown is awesome, but it creates lots of problems.
That idea is for the purpose of making the PVP fun, and now look at it destroy the fun.
A spamfest, which 1 faction use to do lagfest.
Zergs who spams a lot and rolling like a train into everyone.
This is not the game that will bring fun to pro gamers and newcomers alike.
But once they introduce cooldown, I cant tell how much fun it will be to PVP.

BigTone

TagaParti wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

I've been pointing this out since 1.6 hit the client... the CPs, no caps, etc just killed the PvP game... it is a spam fest...

There is little skill dependency and huge gear and CP dependency...

Each competitive PvP game has BOTH resource management, where the passive regens are not skyrocket high (with exception of for example gaining super high regen through some huge kill streak, but then you increase the 'price' on your head), AND they have cooldowns on top of that, to make sure that skills are used to gain tactical advantage, and if you miscast/misplace, and your enemy has better placement, or still most of his skills active, then you are at tactical disadvantage...

Look at SC2 and RTS genre, Look at MOBAs, look at WoW - the only MMORPG game which is remotely in the area of e-sports, and finally look even at FPS games, which resources management goes into grenades/consumables/ammo, and Cooldowns are technically weapon kickback and reload times.

EVERY SINGLE COMPETITIVE AND FUN PVP GAME HAS COOLDOWNS AND MEANINGFUL RESOURCE MANAGEMENT!!!

Diablo3 had spamfest with ridiculous skill dependency on gear, and its PvP died before it was born...

those games with spam fest and little resource issues can be fun in terms of PvE, but they simply are unable to feature a good and fun PvP experience.

EXACTLY
The idea of having no cooldown is awesome, but it creates lots of problems.
That idea is for the purpose of making the PVP fun, and now look at it destroy the fun.
A spamfest, which 1 faction use to do lagfest.
Zergs who spams a lot and rolling like a train into everyone.
This is not the game that will bring fun to pro gamers and newcomers alike.
But once they introduce cooldown, I cant tell how much fun it will be to PVP.

I completely agree that the spam fest is both boring and lag inducing, which is ruining PvP. Something has to be done to stop thee constant AoE spamfest, but I don't think cool downs are the answer. There are other options such as reducing regen numbers, nerfing all AoE damage, and having more moves/siege weapons that increase damage when hitting multiple people. I'm sure there are plenty of other ideas out there as well.

Note: The AoE damage and regen nerf would only apply in Cyrodil

TagaParti

BigTone wrote: »

TagaParti wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

I've been pointing this out since 1.6 hit the client... the CPs, no caps, etc just killed the PvP game... it is a spam fest...

There is little skill dependency and huge gear and CP dependency...

Each competitive PvP game has BOTH resource management, where the passive regens are not skyrocket high (with exception of for example gaining super high regen through some huge kill streak, but then you increase the 'price' on your head), AND they have cooldowns on top of that, to make sure that skills are used to gain tactical advantage, and if you miscast/misplace, and your enemy has better placement, or still most of his skills active, then you are at tactical disadvantage...

Look at SC2 and RTS genre, Look at MOBAs, look at WoW - the only MMORPG game which is remotely in the area of e-sports, and finally look even at FPS games, which resources management goes into grenades/consumables/ammo, and Cooldowns are technically weapon kickback and reload times.

EVERY SINGLE COMPETITIVE AND FUN PVP GAME HAS COOLDOWNS AND MEANINGFUL RESOURCE MANAGEMENT!!!

Diablo3 had spamfest with ridiculous skill dependency on gear, and its PvP died before it was born...

those games with spam fest and little resource issues can be fun in terms of PvE, but they simply are unable to feature a good and fun PvP experience.

EXACTLY
The idea of having no cooldown is awesome, but it creates lots of problems.
That idea is for the purpose of making the PVP fun, and now look at it destroy the fun.
A spamfest, which 1 faction use to do lagfest.
Zergs who spams a lot and rolling like a train into everyone.
This is not the game that will bring fun to pro gamers and newcomers alike.
But once they introduce cooldown, I cant tell how much fun it will be to PVP.

I completely agree that the spam fest is both boring and lag inducing, which is ruining PvP. Something has to be done to stop thee constant AoE spamfest, but I don't think cool downs are the answer. There are other options such as reducing regen numbers, nerfing all AoE damage, and having more moves/siege weapons that increase damage when hitting multiple people. I'm sure there are plenty of other ideas out there as well.

Note: The AoE damage and regen nerf would only apply in Cyrodil

There's no better way than introducing cooldowns. If there was another way, 1 year is more than enough to have it done, but it's not, new problems even arise for each step they tried.

TagaParti

Forztr wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I don't agree with this at all. Cooldowns have to be the most lazy and unrealistic mechanism ever.

Problem is infinite resources

I'd say animation cancelling was more unrealistic, getting the effect of the ability without actually performing the ability seems lame to me.

TRUE

Joy_Division

Forztr wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I don't agree with this at all. Cooldowns have to be the most lazy and unrealistic mechanism ever.

Problem is infinite resources

I'd say animation cancelling was more unrealistic, getting the effect of the ability without actually performing the ability seems lame to me.

And I would say you are wrong as far as the whole realism thing goes. In martial combat, that is between skilled and trained opponents, they are not doing either an "attack" OR a "defense." They do both at the same time, i.e. "block-casting."

As far an animation canceling attacks, again this simulates combinations and the fluidity that separates people who are skill/trained and those who are not. Medieval texts on combat say as much about incorporating multiple attacks/parries in quick succession. They don't say "use attack X then you must something because your ability bar is locked out for 15 seconds."

Darnathian

OdinForge wrote: »

Cooldowns are not the answer, balancing the costs of some skills would go a long way. Removing permablocking (a meta Sheliza is all about) from the game should in theory also go a long way to growing build variety. Permablocking is the one meta that forces the others against the wall, it breeds FoTM builds like what you see with NB and fear. It's builds that do damage while also mitigating most incoming damage, that force people to scrap unique build ideas.

We haven't even seen the LOS check fix in the next patch yet, why don't we wait to see what ZOS found before spouting nonsense.

Well you can't have it both ways. Lol. The response to DKs not having a escape ability because we are "Tanky" then let us be tanks. If you take away blocking ( no stamina regeneration) then give us a Damn escape.

God I am so sick of that. This stupid and Inconcieved nerf is one of the final nails in the coffin. All because the ttk wasn't enough for some elitists. This game is just another step closer to 2 classes. Sorcs and nb.

You could have just found another target to kill. Instead of whining you couldn't, wait for it, BREAK A TANK on a, wait for it, TANK.

k2blader

BigTone wrote: »

Honestly at this point I'm up for anything that reduces the spam-fest which will reduce the lag-fest. Cut all regen numbers in half if you have to, just figure out something.

It's a good idea to cut regen in PvP too. IMO the only folks with better than average (not over the top) regen should be healer builds.