The Current State of Cyrodiil

CN_Daniel · July 2015

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

FENGRUSH is righteous indignation.

The unrighteous always exhibit the most rabid "righteous indignation".

Fengrush is a good dude, you shouldn't talk junk or the lord will rally a zerg of 1 that cannot be tamed.

Germtrocity · July 2015

Just got back home, so many notifications, I didn't realize I stirred such a big and angry pot with my reply.

I am just here to enjoy the game and have fun and also provide entertainment to anyone who would enjoy watching ESO videos. I don't take myself very seriously, not nearly as seriously as all of you take me apparently. I was just trying to share my viewpoint on the matter, I didn't say that I was in the right or the wrong here. It was merely my opinion on the matter for anyone who cared to listen, as opposed to just reading and keeping my thoughts to myself like I normally do with forum drama.

People will always have their own opinions on things, and believe me I know this. I wasn't arguing either way with my reply, I was just adding my own opinion to the mix in some sort of attempt to get the thread to dealing with my intended purpose, rather than derailing it further into making it into some sort of self-hate thread for myself.

I understand everyone loves being self righteous, but sheesh. There is still a line between making your point and just straight up showing vehement loathing for a person. Ouch.

Psilent · July 2015

Germtrocity wrote: »

Just got back home, so many notifications, I didn't realize I stirred such a big and angry pot with my reply.

I am just here to enjoy the game and have fun and also provide entertainment to anyone who would enjoy watching ESO videos. I don't take myself very seriously, not nearly as seriously as all of you take me apparently. I was just trying to share my viewpoint on the matter, I didn't say that I was in the right or the wrong here. It was merely my opinion on the matter for anyone who cared to listen, as opposed to just reading and keeping my thoughts to myself like I normally do with forum drama.

People will always have their own opinions on things, and believe me I know this. I wasn't arguing either way with my reply, I was just adding my own opinion to the mix in some sort of attempt to get the thread to dealing with my intended purpose, rather than derailing it further into making it into some sort of self-hate thread for myself.

I understand everyone loves being self righteous, but sheesh. There is still a line between making your point and just straight up showing vehement loathing for a person. Ouch.

Haven't seen a single post about hating you; just people wondering why someone at your skill level is using exploits.

Also, you keep talking about thread derailment, the title is "The Current State of Cyrodiil", well, the current state is the Exploit Era. So its been on topic!

Fornacis · July 2015

I'm glad you have brought light to this topic again. I really do enjoy playing this game and have been playing since early release. I have had hope for the game even when hope wasn't offered. I have been on the brink of quitting this game many times, and even more so as of late. It is really difficult when you go for a keep defense or offense and have better players than the opposition and end up dying to "fall damage", attacks catching up to normal speed and hitting you all at once, or just too many people in one area spamming abilities which lag the server and they have more people to stand on the flag than your team does while no abilities do any damage. I am going to give Elder Scrolls Online one last chance with the dangling carrot ahead, Imperial City, in hopes that this is more than just a content update to band-aid the much needed fixes for this game to be successful. I have Faith for the ESO team to bring this game to the level us players request. Please dont let us down. Thanks again for the video Arcane!

JTorus · July 2015

Germtrocity wrote: »

Just got back home, so many notifications, I didn't realize I stirred such a big and angry pot with my reply.

I am just here to enjoy the game and have fun and also provide entertainment to anyone who would enjoy watching ESO videos. I don't take myself very seriously, not nearly as seriously as all of you take me apparently. I was just trying to share my viewpoint on the matter, I didn't say that I was in the right or the wrong here. It was merely my opinion on the matter for anyone who cared to listen, as opposed to just reading and keeping my thoughts to myself like I normally do with forum drama.

People will always have their own opinions on things, and believe me I know this. I wasn't arguing either way with my reply, I was just adding my own opinion to the mix in some sort of attempt to get the thread to dealing with my intended purpose, rather than derailing it further into making it into some sort of self-hate thread for myself.

I understand everyone loves being self righteous, but sheesh. There is still a line between making your point and just straight up showing vehement loathing for a person. Ouch.

It isn't personal, people aren't saying they don't like you. They just don't like what you do. I'd like to think that most people on the other side of the screen aren't pretty chill folks, especially in this game's community. Things get lost in translation in the anonymous gulf that is the internet.

Laggus · July 2015

Perhaps its people using bugged skills and exploits purposefully that is contributing to the lag! It's certainly adding more calculations than it should have to on the server and the very nature of them been bugs means god knows what else the code is doing in the background.

Ezareth · July 2015

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Taking advantage of a bug isn't really exploiting.

That would be like saying magicka based melee attacks ignoring dodge being used and abused is exploiting.

Wearing all nirnhorned certainly isn't, oddly enough the reason to do it is due to so many sorcs and templars abusing the hell out of spell pen (double mundus, nirnweapons etc) that they hit you like a mack truck if you don't. There is a difference between getting one shot by some of these stat stacking double mundus abusers ultimates and not, and nirnhorned is it.

Now abusing certain systems to force buffs to remain when they ought not, that's exploiting... but it's relatively minor imo.

Thing is, the heavy nerfing that's incoming for sorcs is likely due to so many exploiting the buff system. On paper without exploits it's pretty hard to balance defensive sorc versus offensive; but when you can take two mundus stones and can keep a free 10% spell crit (or stealth detection) or even the permanent armor and max stamina/magicka from the armor buff, it tips the scales. Those things compound something minor into something major.

I've seen how hard Arcane hits, and it's done by exploiting. He doesn't think so, but he also thinks nirnhorned is exploiting... when if you face someone like him and you aren't nirned out... he gibs you and you are victim 26 in his video series extolling how awesome he is. If you stack nirn you are what didn't make into the video.

Now pulling your pagefile via a script tied to a macro to create lag so you can triple hit someone, that's really exploiting. But some do it because they can or because they have to. K--vez does it... he abuses it like it makes him cool. He's still around isn't he, and he's been doing it for nearly a year. So even major exploits are not being punished.... The craziest thing is people actually say things like he's just a really good player. In many cases the very good players are also the ones abusing the system the most.

You have a band of miscreants on Azura that obviously decided to take the server or make it into Thornblade v2. They just went and made it into Thornblade v2 by sitting in ash towers and spamming aes over and over and over... But they weren't the first ones doing that... Most of us are quite aware and/or have screenshots or videos of a certain EP guild and it's sister guilds doing the same exact thing. Thing is by abusing this, they get to take the server. That's the way they choose to play, and it's pathetic.

The fact that Blixxxy is around and running around still unkillable every night shows you what's up with ZOS. Yah I hear the bs rumors, the he's friends with the head of CS or whatever nonsense people want to make up (or in his case he tells them, making it up). He's a toxic player, and he's still around. The "Lord" of two mundus stones, perma armor buff not on bar and super macroes is still around, and he's regarded as a great player as is his squire with the silent partner that bots about him as he ranges from taking no damage when you attack him (well, nearly no damage) and wholesale gibbing people before they can even react. You think "the squire of the lord" isn't double mundus, full nirn, with a bot in tow? Really?

How about that templar that phases through the stairs in outposts and keeps? Or the guys running under the ground with only their head showing. I've seen them, I'm not blind.

The worst thing that can happen to a great game, is apathy from the developer.

I just wish that for one time, just one freaking time someone who isn't a damn forum mod from ZoS would directly address everything you just mentioned. I can almost forgive the lag or other incompetencies as things they try to address but can't correct. To just stand on the sidelines and watch this kind of behavior, to *know* that is is happening and only take actions behind the scenes to me is reprehensible. The lack of communication from the top down at ZoS is their greatest failing, not the bugs + issues with their game.

SkylarkAU · July 2015

People rationalise things in certain ways so they can go on thinking/believing what they want to.. Well the reality is, the mechanics of the game were designed so you had to make a choice between maximum mitigation, maximum penetration and maximum damage (e.g. spell power + max magicka). Only by using these "bugs" or "exploits" is a player able to obtain all three - and that in itself is cheating by definition.

I just watched a certain sorcerer whom will not be named tank 15-20 AD for minutes at a time over and over again, taking a massive amount of DPS and ultimate drops without dropping below a third health at any point. All of zone was talking about it and speculation was rampant. There is no amount of skill that can allow a player to do that, especially when they aren't an emperor.

The game breaking lag, I put up with it (though many haven't). The unpatched bugs, I put up with it (though many haven't). The dramatically unbalanced campaigns, I've barely put up with it (though many haven't). The blatant cheating and exploiting is just too much - if 1.7 doesn't resolve this and have a fair crack at the other issues then I and the last of the "good ones" will be gone from this game. At that point the players who did anything to be the "best" will have their hollow victory and PVP will be a shadow of its former self.

If you're one of these players it's time to dig deep and bring some f***ing integrity to the battlefield.

Ghostbane · July 2015

German, stop glitching through doors and causing lag with your switches.

Derra · July 2015

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Taking advantage of a bug isn't really exploiting.

That would be like saying magicka based melee attacks ignoring dodge being used and abused is exploiting.

Wearing all nirnhorned certainly isn't, oddly enough the reason to do it is due to so many sorcs and templars abusing the hell out of spell pen (double mundus, nirnweapons etc) that they hit you like a mack truck if you don't. There is a difference between getting one shot by some of these stat stacking double mundus abusers ultimates and not, and nirnhorned is it.

Now abusing certain systems to force buffs to remain when they ought not, that's exploiting... but it's relatively minor imo.

I really think you got this one backwards. The reason why so many ppl are onto overload and mundus exploits is because how popular nirn on armor has become. Nirn has been a thing ingame and on this forums way before things like overload exploits and double mundus even came up.
Nobody is abusing the hell out of spell penetration. Nirn on weapons and the mundus have been working normal for "ages" now.

So ultimately this way of arguing leads to: There is a difference between not scratching someone decked out in gold nirn whitestrake and not, and double mundus + overload magelight it is.

Maulkin · July 2015

Derra wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Taking advantage of a bug isn't really exploiting.

That would be like saying magicka based melee attacks ignoring dodge being used and abused is exploiting.

Wearing all nirnhorned certainly isn't, oddly enough the reason to do it is due to so many sorcs and templars abusing the hell out of spell pen (double mundus, nirnweapons etc) that they hit you like a mack truck if you don't. There is a difference between getting one shot by some of these stat stacking double mundus abusers ultimates and not, and nirnhorned is it.

Now abusing certain systems to force buffs to remain when they ought not, that's exploiting... but it's relatively minor imo.

I really think you got this one backwards. The reason why so many ppl are onto overload and mundus exploits is because how popular nirn on armor has become. Nirn has been a thing ingame and on this forums way before things like overload exploits and double mundus even came up.
Nobody is abusing the hell out of spell penetration. Nirn on weapons and the mundus have been working normal for "ages" now.

So ultimately this way of arguing leads to: There is a difference between not scratching someone decked out in gold nirn whitestrake and not, and double mundus + overload magelight it is.

Personally, I think people would abuse overload and mundus even if nirn wasn't a thing. It's just how it is. Same as people using nirn even before mundus and overload exploits became even known. One is not the result of the other, they are not related in any way.

The widely accepted definition of exploit, as in wikipedia, is:

In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers

As @dduke said yesterday in the Arena chat (one of the rare times we agree), an exploited bug that isn't fixed in a reasonable timeline, simply becomes a feature. Because in time everyone learns about them (like sharpened bug early on, or Wall of Elements later, or Maces now etc) and they become so popular that using it no longer gives you an advantage, it simply brings you to the same level as most players.

I /bug reported the overload exploit 2 months ago when I first found out about it. It has come to the point where I feel like an idiot everyday for not using it. That's how popular it now is. It's a shame the devs can't react in reasonable time to these exploits, but the blame is squarely with them at this point.

Laggus · July 2015

Will be interesting to see how many people stop using the exploits they use mentioned in this thread when Nirnhoned is adjusted in 1.7. I'm guessing zero. They will simply move onto the next reason to continue such as everyone else has hundreds more CPs than me or everyones got better gear than me etc etc.

ZoS needs to fix Nirnhoned and these exploits and if they cant fix the bugs bring the ban hammer until they can for people who knowingly use exploits. Police your game ZoS please.

Maulkin · July 2015

Laggus wrote: »

Will be interesting to see how many people stop using the exploits they use mentioned in this thread when Nirnhoned is adjusted in 1.7. I'm guessing zero. They will simply move onto the next reason to continue such as everyone else has hundreds more CPs than me or everyones got better gear than me etc etc.

ZoS needs to fix Nirnhoned and these exploits and if they cant fix the bugs bring the ban hammer until they can for people who knowingly use exploits. Police your game ZoS please.

You can't only police. You also have to fix the fecking bugs quickly before their use becomes widespread.

Think of the Wall of Elements bug that was around for 3 whole months. Only a few people were using it at the beginning and by month 3 everyone was. What are you gonna do? Ban all your players? Ban everyone for what, using a skill that you put in the game?

And if using overload bug with Magelight to increase your damage is deplorable (which it is) isn't using maces the very same thing, as it has precisely the same effect (more damage) and it's also a bug?

The point is that if you don't fix bugs fast enough, they grow popular beyond the point where they can get contained by banning players and closing down forum threads. When they start reacting within a couple of weeks rather than a couple of months, then they can also get more hands-on with policing.

Currently they have no leg to stand on. It's all their fault.

ToRelax · July 2015

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Laggus wrote: »

Will be interesting to see how many people stop using the exploits they use mentioned in this thread when Nirnhoned is adjusted in 1.7. I'm guessing zero. They will simply move onto the next reason to continue such as everyone else has hundreds more CPs than me or everyones got better gear than me etc etc.

ZoS needs to fix Nirnhoned and these exploits and if they cant fix the bugs bring the ban hammer until they can for people who knowingly use exploits. Police your game ZoS please.

You can't only police. You also have to fix the fecking bugs quickly before their use becomes widespread.

Think of the Wall of Elements bug that was around for 3 whole months. Only a few people were using it at the beginning and by month 3 everyone was. What are you gonna do? Ban all your players? Ban everyone for what, using a skill that you put in the game?

And if using overload bug with Magelight to increase your damage is deplorable (which it is) isn't using maces the very same thing, as it has precisely the same effect (more damage) and it's also a bug?

The point is that if you don't fix bugs fast enough, they grow popular beyond the point where they can get contained by banning players and closing down forum threads. When they start reacting within a couple of weeks rather than a couple of months, then they can also get more hands-on with policing.

Currently they have no leg to stand on. It's all their fault.

The WoE thing was like the Dawnbreaker "exploit" we have today.
Nearly no one used it before Impulse got nerfed, then from one day on the other it's a common sight in Cyrodiil, and some weeks later players are complaining it instantly kills them.
Both skills are something many people would use even if there was no bug, in that case it's not the same like the toggle exploit for example.

Maulkin · July 2015

ToRelax wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Laggus wrote: »

Will be interesting to see how many people stop using the exploits they use mentioned in this thread when Nirnhoned is adjusted in 1.7. I'm guessing zero. They will simply move onto the next reason to continue such as everyone else has hundreds more CPs than me or everyones got better gear than me etc etc.

ZoS needs to fix Nirnhoned and these exploits and if they cant fix the bugs bring the ban hammer until they can for people who knowingly use exploits. Police your game ZoS please.

You can't only police. You also have to fix the fecking bugs quickly before their use becomes widespread.

Think of the Wall of Elements bug that was around for 3 whole months. Only a few people were using it at the beginning and by month 3 everyone was. What are you gonna do? Ban all your players? Ban everyone for what, using a skill that you put in the game?

And if using overload bug with Magelight to increase your damage is deplorable (which it is) isn't using maces the very same thing, as it has precisely the same effect (more damage) and it's also a bug?

The point is that if you don't fix bugs fast enough, they grow popular beyond the point where they can get contained by banning players and closing down forum threads. When they start reacting within a couple of weeks rather than a couple of months, then they can also get more hands-on with policing.

Currently they have no leg to stand on. It's all their fault.

The WoE thing was like the Dawnbreaker "exploit" we have today.
Nearly no one used it before Impulse got nerfed, then from one day on the other it's a common sight in Cyrodiil, and some weeks later players are complaining it instantly kills them.
Both skills are something many people would use even if there was no bug, in that case it's not the same like the toggle exploit for example.

I understand the argument but there's 2 sides to that. The WoE was not bugged at the beginning. It got bugged in 1.5 when they made some changes to purge. After that bug got revealed its use became widespread. It wasn't just because Impulse got nerfed.

You can't tell me it wasn't an intentional strategy to pour oils and meatbags on the breach, while others stacked WoEs. So if you did't purge, you died to siege and if you purged you died to WoE.

Anyhow.... People who go and craft maces and nirn armor right now, know exactly what they are getting and why they are doing it. Their effect is actually a lot worse than the overload exploit. Getting ~3k extra magicka and 10% crit is a much smaller bonus than your attacks ignoring all resistance, while yourself mitigating 50% of spell damage.

You might class them differently because "you could be doing that unintentionally", I don't. If devs don't fix them for months they become a free-for-all and widely used. I'm not defending either, I'm just saying that what happened is inevitable given the stance of developers.

Robbmrp · July 2015

My game wasn't as bad as that last night but close. I dropped all my settings down to medium and turned off a bunch of things like AA, Bloom and Sun Rays and have been getting 60 FPS on my system. From the looks of your video, the highest FPS I noticed for you was 35 with most of it ranging in the 15-25 range.

The thing that's getting me lately is the ping fluctuations. Usually I am about 115 in Cyrodil but depending on the group size we encounter, that value can go up to 200 and at times do the 999+ on it. That's when the game really starts to suck. Spells and animations won't cast, you lose any siege weapons you try and put down.

I'm not sure if this would resolve the issue but they really need to get a 64 bit version of the game going.

Some people were in the group I was with last night were talking about Camelot Unchained and how they had 1700 people on screen scattered with no lag. So how is it that other games can get huge people on screen with no lag yet ESO lags out when there's 80 yellow vs 80 red or blue??????

Everyone yells "lag switch" yet with all the game playing I've seen the past few months, I'm more inclined to believe that it's just the game itself and not a "lag switch" in most situations.

Although it is interesting when certain people are killed and there's still a very large group of people on screen that the lag can almost immediately go away.....

Wycks · July 2015

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

The worst thing that can happen to a great game, is apathy from the developer.

This sums of ZOS and is the reason why so many people have left or are not interested.

There is a simple solution, it's called "communication".

I know @Firor doesn't come around here, but he desperately needs to realize the important of a Sanya Thomas.

ps. Some of you might not understand that ^ but Firor and crew will.

Ezareth · July 2015

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Laggus wrote: »

Will be interesting to see how many people stop using the exploits they use mentioned in this thread when Nirnhoned is adjusted in 1.7. I'm guessing zero. They will simply move onto the next reason to continue such as everyone else has hundreds more CPs than me or everyones got better gear than me etc etc.

ZoS needs to fix Nirnhoned and these exploits and if they cant fix the bugs bring the ban hammer until they can for people who knowingly use exploits. Police your game ZoS please.

You can't only police. You also have to fix the fecking bugs quickly before their use becomes widespread.

Think of the Wall of Elements bug that was around for 3 whole months. Only a few people were using it at the beginning and by month 3 everyone was. What are you gonna do? Ban all your players? Ban everyone for what, using a skill that you put in the game?

And if using overload bug with Magelight to increase your damage is deplorable (which it is) isn't using maces the very same thing, as it has precisely the same effect (more damage) and it's also a bug?

The point is that if you don't fix bugs fast enough, they grow popular beyond the point where they can get contained by banning players and closing down forum threads. When they start reacting within a couple of weeks rather than a couple of months, then they can also get more hands-on with policing.

Currently they have no leg to stand on. It's all their fault.

The WoE thing was like the Dawnbreaker "exploit" we have today.
Nearly no one used it before Impulse got nerfed, then from one day on the other it's a common sight in Cyrodiil, and some weeks later players are complaining it instantly kills them.
Both skills are something many people would use even if there was no bug, in that case it's not the same like the toggle exploit for example.

I understand the argument but there's 2 sides to that. The WoE was not bugged at the beginning. It got bugged in 1.5 when they made some changes to purge. After that bug got revealed its use became widespread. It wasn't just because Impulse got nerfed.

You can't tell me it wasn't an intentional strategy to pour oils and meatbags on the breach, while others stacked WoEs. So if you did't purge, you died to siege and if you purged you died to WoE.

Anyhow.... People who go and craft maces and nirn armor right now, know exactly what they are getting and why they are doing it. Their effect is actually a lot worse than the overload exploit. Getting ~3k extra magicka and 10% crit is a much smaller bonus than your attacks ignoring all resistance, while yourself mitigating 50% of spell damage.

You might class them differently because "you could be doing that unintentionally", I don't. If devs don't fix them for months they become a free-for-all and widely used. I'm not defending either, I'm just saying that what happened is inevitable given the stance of developers.

I don't agree with your stance at all.

Nirnhoned is supposed to increase magic resist. Maces are supposed to increase penetration. Many people are using these things for what they are designed for, the bug is the fact they're too strong.

Overload and mundus are straight up exploits. You aren't at a disadvantage if you choose not to use then which is what you'd be were maces and nirnhoned working as intended. They both *should* be the BiS for PvP by the math. Using the Overload and mundus exploits is indefensible as you have to knowingly break the game mechanics in order for them to work.

Lastly on Nirnhoned I crafted 2 pieces for my nightblade and I can't tell a different in damage from any decent magic user. I was 1-shot by a sorc the other night with nothing but a soul assault. 25k damage for a single ability that I had no way to counter.

I'm not saying nirnhoned isn't overpowered but it does cost you something to make it where the mundus overload exploits cost you nothing....just straight up exploiting a bonus with no downside.

Cathexis · July 2015

Laggus wrote: »

Perhaps its people using bugged skills and exploits purposefully that is contributing to the lag! It's certainly adding more calculations than it should have to on the server and the very nature of them been bugs means god knows what else the code is doing in the background.

Straight up false.

Laggus · July 2015

Cathexis wrote: »

Laggus wrote: »

Perhaps its people using bugged skills and exploits purposefully that is contributing to the lag! It's certainly adding more calculations than it should have to on the server and the very nature of them been bugs means god knows what else the code is doing in the background.

Straight up false.

Having Magelight active when its not on either skill bar whilst giving you 2 to 3 additional other free slots for skills you otherwise wouldn't have = more calculations to handle.

hammayolettuce · July 2015

Laggus wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Laggus wrote: »

Perhaps its people using bugged skills and exploits purposefully that is contributing to the lag! It's certainly adding more calculations than it should have to on the server and the very nature of them been bugs means god knows what else the code is doing in the background.

Straight up false.

Having Magelight active when its not on either skill bar whilst giving you 2 to 3 additional other free slots for skills you otherwise wouldn't have = more calculations to handle.

It does not create lag. It does however depending on the sorcs build add anywhere from 1-4k magicka and 1-4k+ spell resist. To some this may seem innocent but the amount of magicka gained from passives, buff, gear, etc. all adds up and that little extra boost equates to a lot of damage that would not be there without it.

There will be those to use and abuse any exploit for an advantage... its just human nature. However, once it is main stream it is already too late. ZOS new about this ages ago and chose to do nothing. Nerfing the deer and sheep was far more important.

Lucky28 · July 2015

Yes, i have heard people saying the reason for the lag is because they split the servers and moved some over to console. i don't know how true it is tho.

at any rate. right after the last patch. Azura ran so smooth for that entire night..... I wonder.

Maulkin · July 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

I don't agree with your stance at all.

Well the good thing is you don't have to

Ezareth wrote: »

Nirnhoned is supposed to increase magic resist. Maces are supposed to increase penetration. Many people are using these things for what they are designed for, the bug is the fact they're too strong.

Overload and mundus are straight up exploits. You aren't at a disadvantage if you choose not to use then which is what you'd be were maces and nirnhoned working as intended. They both *should* be the BiS for PvP by the math. Using the Overload and mundus exploits is indefensible as you have to knowingly break the game mechanics in order for them to work.

No, they are used because they are too strong at what they provide, not because of what they are supposed to provide. And in the case of nirn it might have been an oversight rather than a bug, but maces are a straight up bug. The penetration is supposed to be 10% per mace, not +70%.

C'mon man, what's with the BS excuses? Nirn is the spell res equivalent of Reinforced. Who uses reinforced? No one
Who used maces for the last year, until the bug was exposed? No one.

None of them are supposed to be best in slot.There are no good dropped sets with maces. Axes which were popular for a while proc Skoria. Swords provide higher damage which applies on shields, which is a great advantage fighting LA builds. Daggers increase crit which is crucial on finishers (usually when target is knocked-down with shields depleted) or on unblockable channels like Soul Assault.

The only reason maces are better is cause they are bugged and provide an insane bonus. The proof is in the pudding. Before the bug became common knowledge, you'd hardly see a mace in Cyro. Best in slot my ****.

Ezareth wrote: »

Lastly on Nirnhoned I crafted 2 pieces for my nightblade and I can't tell a different in damage from any decent magic user. I was 1-shot by a sorc the other night with nothing but a soul assault. 25k damage for a single ability that I had no way to counter.

Please. You have a straight counter as a NB, it's called cloak.

Not that any of that has to do with anything. My SA tooltip is 44k, before crits. And it crits like a mofo cause it's unblockable. Taking 25k from a SA and complaining is like the people who complain about 8k snipes when people around them are getting sniped for +20k (personal highest received 22k so far).

If you put CPs in Hardy and stack nirn you will reduce the damage of soul assault by up 75%. What should I do about Snipe? Should I use 75% mitigation mistform exploit under the pretence "Snipe hits too hard, I'm just balancing things by doing this"?

Ezareth wrote: »

I'm not saying nirnhoned isn't overpowered but it does cost you something to make it where the mundus overload exploits cost you nothing....just straight up exploiting a bonus with no downside.

More BS excuses. Sharpened Maces cost nothing to make, though people still make them right?

You might have system abuse ranked in some way in your mind. Like the harder it is to perform the worse it is, or if it costs 20k gold (as if that has any value) it's more ethical or whatever. In both cases it's intended behaviour, performed knowingly to give you an unfair advantage over the opposition. Both cases are system abuse in mind, plain and simple.

I'm not surprised it happens though. We reported the bugs months ago and nothing happened. When people see no fixes and no punishment for the perpetrators, they think "if you can't beat them join them". But no BS excuses please that exploit A is less of an exploit than B (even though B has greater imbalance effect) because it costs gold, or is less elaborate to perform.

Derra · July 2015

I 2nd what maulkin said wholeheartedly.

Maulkin · July 2015

Derra wrote: »

I 2nd what maulkin said wholeheartedly.

I just get shocked at all these 40k spell res, mace -equipped, medium builds getting all self-righteous when they discover a sorc uses overload exploit

Newsflash: Sorc is cheating, but so are you.

Let's focus the pressure on zos to actually fix the fecking bugs instead of getting into stupid discussions like "my exploit is less exploity than your exploit".

"There ain't no such thing as halfway crooks" - Mobb Deep, 1995

ThyIronFist · July 2015

I've given up on reporting things and /bug stuff that is broken. I did it for many months when the game launched but never got anything back and half of the stuff that was reported back then is still in the game. For example falling through the world or getting stuck in the animation when using the DK ultimate ferocious leap / take flight. Even when it's not laggy it bugs out a lot.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, ZOS rewards you for exploiting instead of punishing you for it. But it's really sad that players need to use broken stuff / exploits just to stay competitive.

Meanwhile, I'm looking forward as to what bugs and exploits the Imperial City is going to have. Oh god...

Takllin · July 2015

It was a bit comical to see people using their dual sharpened maces with Dawnbreaker of Smiting last night...

Some people might be able to hide behind not knowing about the bugs with either of those, but there are many, many who did not use those before but do now because they are bugged.

They are all a bunch of baddies.

SturgeHammer · July 2015

I think it's an odd design choice by ZOS to make toggles, like inner light, deactivate when switching weapons. It's like they designed the combat with the premise that players wouldn't switch weapons mid-fight, but only between fights. The only evidence I have to support this assumption is the Intentional delay in weapon swapping the game had in the early days. I would even go so far as to question if having toggles stay on when weapon swapping (having the skill on both bars) was an intended feature.

I think that a lot of the drama here could have been avoided if the toggle system were to have been redesigned to only require 1 slot on either bar to get full effect. This would require some rebalancing, but it would be a nice quality of life enhancement.

Ezareth · July 2015

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

No, they are used because they are too strong at what they provide, not because of what they are supposed to provide. And in the case of nirn it might have been an oversight rather than a bug, but maces are a straight up bug. The penetration is supposed to be 10% per mace, not +70%.

C'mon man, what's with the BS excuses? Nirn is the spell res equivalent of Reinforced. Who uses reinforced? No one
Who used maces for the last year, until the bug was exposed? No one.

None of them are supposed to be best in slot.There are no good dropped sets with maces. Axes which were popular for a while proc Skoria. Swords provide higher damage which applies on shields, which is a great advantage fighting LA builds. Daggers increase crit which is crucial on finishers (usually when target is knocked-down with shields depleted) or on unblockable channels like Soul Assault.

The only reason maces are better is cause they are bugged and provide an insane bonus. The proof is in the pudding. Before the bug became common knowledge, you'd hardly see a mace in Cyro. Best in slot my ****.

Please. You have a straight counter as a NB, it's called cloak.

Not that any of that has to do with anything. My SA tooltip is 44k, before crits. And it crits like a mofo cause it's unblockable. Taking 25k from a SA and complaining is like the people who complain about 8k snipes when people around them are getting sniped for +20k (personal highest received 22k so far).

If you put CPs in Hardy and stack nirn you will reduce the damage of soul assault by up 75%. What should I do about Snipe? Should I use 75% mitigation mistform exploit under the pretence "Snipe hits too hard, I'm just balancing things by doing this"?

More BS excuses. Sharpened Maces cost nothing to make, though people still make them right?

You might have system abuse ranked in some way in your mind. Like the harder it is to perform the worse it is, or if it costs 20k gold (as if that has any value) it's more ethical or whatever. In both cases it's intended behaviour, performed knowingly to give you an unfair advantage over the opposition. Both cases are system abuse in mind, plain and simple.

I'm not surprised it happens though. We reported the bugs months ago and nothing happened. When people see no fixes and no punishment for the perpetrators, they think "if you can't beat them join them". But no BS excuses please that exploit A is less of an exploit than B (even though B has imbalance effect) because it costs gold, or is less elaborate to perform.

You missed pretty much all of my points.

For a stamina user what is the cause of 90% of the damage I take? How many physical abilities hit me through dodge roll? It isn't Armor. On Paper for Nirnhoned would be the best Survivability trait for a Stamina NB, that's pretty simple. Now if Nirnhoned worked the way it *should* I'd be putting it on my Boots and Chest but that doesn't matter currently. For the record I run reinforced on my heavy boots/chest/ and shield on my Sorc. Do the math, that's what I do. And I test it too.

And yeah I'm aware of cloak, it's buggy as hell and far too situational to deserve a slot on a Stamina NBs bar unless you're trying to play a stealth ganker which I do not. (I don't even use stealth 99% of the time). My point was that even with 25,000 spell resist I was effectively 1-shot by a single player with a magic ability. Nirnhoned *is* too powerful but putting on a couple pieces of it doesn't make as big of an effect as you would think....even with Medium Armor. You really only start to get noticeable benefits when you can boost your SR to the 32K+ range....and most good players aren't doing that unless they're building tank /block builds.

When I tested damage with swords versus Maces, maces won out. When you compare Precise staves versus Sharpened/Nirnhoned it is no contest which is why no one uses precise staves in PvP if they have a choice. When they *Fix* the mace bug I'll still be using them (unless they fix them by breaking them) because as I said, on paper they are BiS. Do the math. Armor and Spell penetration have *always* trumped all in PvP versus anything else. Good players have defensive builds so you need to maximize your effectiveness versus those players. I'm not going to gimp myself because something that I calculated as best for me to use happens to be bugged or too strong and I'm not going to fault anyone else for that either. That's where I draw my line (and everyone is welcome to draw that line wherever they please).

My point with cost is not material cost to make an item as that is immaterial to me. The cost is the *opportunity* cost of using Nirnhoned. Someone stacking 7/8 pieces of Nirnhoned is using a full crafted set and there isn't a single good crafted set worth using more than a few pieces on. Point is, you have to sacrifice one choic e to get a benefit of that particular trait, just like you *should* be sacrificing a choice to receive a particular mundus or you should sacrifice skill slots to benefit from inner light.

It seems to me you're just trying to justify these exploits so you can use them yourself (if you aren't already).

AhPook_Is_Here · July 2015

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Taking advantage of a bug isn't really exploiting.

That would be like saying magicka based melee attacks ignoring dodge being used and abused is exploiting.

Wearing all nirnhorned certainly isn't, oddly enough the reason to do it is due to so many sorcs and templars abusing the hell out of spell pen (double mundus, nirnweapons etc) that they hit you like a mack truck if you don't. There is a difference between getting one shot by some of these stat stacking double mundus abusers ultimates and not, and nirnhorned is it.

Now abusing certain systems to force buffs to remain when they ought not, that's exploiting... but it's relatively minor imo.

I really think you got this one backwards. The reason why so many ppl are onto overload and mundus exploits is because how popular nirn on armor has become. Nirn has been a thing ingame and on this forums way before things like overload exploits and double mundus even came up.
Nobody is abusing the hell out of spell penetration. Nirn on weapons and the mundus have been working normal for "ages" now.

So ultimately this way of arguing leads to: There is a difference between not scratching someone decked out in gold nirn whitestrake and not, and double mundus + overload magelight it is.

Personally, I think people would abuse overload and mundus even if nirn wasn't a thing. It's just how it is. Same as people using nirn even before mundus and overload exploits became even known. One is not the result of the other, they are not related in any way.

The widely accepted definition of exploit, as in wikipedia, is:

In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers

As @dduke said yesterday in the Arena chat (one of the rare times we agree), an exploited bug that isn't fixed in a reasonable timeline, simply becomes a feature. Because in time everyone learns about them (like sharpened bug early on, or Wall of Elements later, or Maces now etc) and they become so popular that using it no longer gives you an advantage, it simply brings you to the same level as most players.

I /bug reported the overload exploit 2 months ago when I first found out about it. It has come to the point where I feel like an idiot everyday for not using it. That's how popular it now is. It's a shame the devs can't react in reasonable time to these exploits, but the blame is squarely with them at this point.

I don't think I can accept that. If you truly believe that at some point when enough people cheat it isn't cheating anymore then you should do what you can to increase the knowledge of those things so that they are no longer considered as cheats. You should post method and process on public forms outside of ZoS control at any point you discover a cheat to share it with the community and make the game-play more balanced between players. That's what someone who cared about fair play would do, not use these exploits without providing the knowledge to others how to do the same while doing what they could to hide their behavior.

There are a lot of things people might be using that you won't even know, I'm not going to mention it here but hypothetically, there might be a few top tier champion point talents that if you spec into and then spec out of without zoning don't go away. How would everyone feel about how fair game-play is if everyone knew about that hypothetical situation?

I really hope ZoS fixes most of these bugs at 1.7, I haven't bothered with PVP in a few weeks now because it is such shi*, they know what is broken and they need to stop making excuses about testing cycles and rolling out changes via their process and just fix it.