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How to fix PVP
Volrion
✭✭✭✭
Hey guys,
I know many have already chimed in here with the Champion Point disparity issue, and come up with some great ideas, so I figured I'd give my own (I'll keep it brief).
I am the type of player who loves competitive PvP. As a former athlete, the teamwork and competitive emotions I feel when in Cyrodil are everything I wanted from this game. I want it to be competitive, and I want to win by outplaying my enemies with skill and team strategy. I don't want to one shot people (or be one shot) and I certainly don't want to spend hours AOE grinding mobs just so I can prepare myself for PvP.
I should be able to play competitive PvP whenever I want, and not feel underpowered or overpowered because of whether I did or did not kill zombie mobs.
That said, I don't think the problem is Champion Points or their distribution, the problem is the PVP SERVERS.
To fix the balancing issues, why don't we simply create servers that are segmented? (Just like NCAA sporting divisions, or English football/soccer)
Server One: 0 Champion Point Cap
Server Two: 100 Champion Point Cap
Server Three: 200 Champion Point Cap
Server Four: 300 Champion Point Cap
...And so on.
Instead of just calling them "Server One" etc. They could give them cool names to add some prestige to the title.
- Anybody can play on any server, but you are limited to equipping only the max number of CPs allowed on that server.
- If you have 153 CP and you want to play on Server Two (100 CP Cap) with your friends, you can. You will simply be limited to equipping only 100 of your points while in that campaign.
- If you have 153 CP and you want to play on Server Four with your friends, you can. You will just be at a disadvantage of only having 153 points compared to the rest of the server with 300 point Cap.
-While you are playing in a lower campaign YOU DO NOT EARN XP. You only earn XP when playing in the league which fits your cp ranking (or higher).
- If you play on servers more than 100 CP higher than your actual level, perhaps you could get an XP buff? A player with 153 CP playing on Server Four (300 CP Cap) gets a 20% XP buff until he reaches 200 CPs and becomes a normal ranked player for that server.
Not earning XP in lower servers gives players an incentive to try and progress through the 'leagues' or 'divisions', but it also gives them the freedom to get off the grind horse and play in a lower level as long as they like with their friends and ALWAYS FIND A COMPETITIVE SERVER.
I think the more competitive guys and gals will always want to press forward and see how good they can get, so I don't see it being a problem of keeping access to lower tiered servers. I know that if I wasn't earning XP, I'd want to move on pretty quickly to something more challenging.
Ultimately this idea doesn't stop anybody from playing how they want, or achieving levels of power that they want. But it does give ALL PLAYERS a chance to find a competitive PvP game that they can enjoy.
Some players will always be casual, some players will always be more hardcore. Let both types of PvPer play with a group of peers that fits their skill and investment into the game.
If the grinders wanna grind, let them. If the casuals wanna casual, let them.
****This idea is based on the premise that Veteran Ranks will be gone and we will only be using CPs
****Server caps are just examples, the numbers could vary in the real world application
Thanks reading, I'd love to hear your thoughts on whether you think this is a viable solution to the problem.
Feel free to re-write this and edit if you think you can make it sound better or more concise than I just did!
Cheers,
Whale
I know many have already chimed in here with the Champion Point disparity issue, and come up with some great ideas, so I figured I'd give my own (I'll keep it brief).
I am the type of player who loves competitive PvP. As a former athlete, the teamwork and competitive emotions I feel when in Cyrodil are everything I wanted from this game. I want it to be competitive, and I want to win by outplaying my enemies with skill and team strategy. I don't want to one shot people (or be one shot) and I certainly don't want to spend hours AOE grinding mobs just so I can prepare myself for PvP.
I should be able to play competitive PvP whenever I want, and not feel underpowered or overpowered because of whether I did or did not kill zombie mobs.
That said, I don't think the problem is Champion Points or their distribution, the problem is the PVP SERVERS.
To fix the balancing issues, why don't we simply create servers that are segmented? (Just like NCAA sporting divisions, or English football/soccer)
Server One: 0 Champion Point Cap
Server Two: 100 Champion Point Cap
Server Three: 200 Champion Point Cap
Server Four: 300 Champion Point Cap
...And so on.
Instead of just calling them "Server One" etc. They could give them cool names to add some prestige to the title.
- Anybody can play on any server, but you are limited to equipping only the max number of CPs allowed on that server.
- If you have 153 CP and you want to play on Server Two (100 CP Cap) with your friends, you can. You will simply be limited to equipping only 100 of your points while in that campaign.
- If you have 153 CP and you want to play on Server Four with your friends, you can. You will just be at a disadvantage of only having 153 points compared to the rest of the server with 300 point Cap.
-While you are playing in a lower campaign YOU DO NOT EARN XP. You only earn XP when playing in the league which fits your cp ranking (or higher).
- If you play on servers more than 100 CP higher than your actual level, perhaps you could get an XP buff? A player with 153 CP playing on Server Four (300 CP Cap) gets a 20% XP buff until he reaches 200 CPs and becomes a normal ranked player for that server.
Not earning XP in lower servers gives players an incentive to try and progress through the 'leagues' or 'divisions', but it also gives them the freedom to get off the grind horse and play in a lower level as long as they like with their friends and ALWAYS FIND A COMPETITIVE SERVER.
I think the more competitive guys and gals will always want to press forward and see how good they can get, so I don't see it being a problem of keeping access to lower tiered servers. I know that if I wasn't earning XP, I'd want to move on pretty quickly to something more challenging.
Ultimately this idea doesn't stop anybody from playing how they want, or achieving levels of power that they want. But it does give ALL PLAYERS a chance to find a competitive PvP game that they can enjoy.
Some players will always be casual, some players will always be more hardcore. Let both types of PvPer play with a group of peers that fits their skill and investment into the game.
If the grinders wanna grind, let them. If the casuals wanna casual, let them.
****This idea is based on the premise that Veteran Ranks will be gone and we will only be using CPs
****Server caps are just examples, the numbers could vary in the real world application
Thanks reading, I'd love to hear your thoughts on whether you think this is a viable solution to the problem.
Feel free to re-write this and edit if you think you can make it sound better or more concise than I just did!
Cheers,
Whale
2
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Akavir_Sentinel✭✭✭✭✭
✭Instead of having 30+ campaigns based on the number of Champion Points that you have, simply make a couple of veteran and non-veteran campaigns that have Champion Points disabled. They are currently looking into doing just that.5 -
OzJohnD✭✭✭✭is PvP broken ?Everyone knows the phenomenon of trying to hold your breath underwater - how at first it's alright and you can handle it, and then as it gets closer and closer to the time when you must breathe, how urgent the need becomes, the lust and the hunger to breathe. And then the panic sets in when you begin to think that you won't be able to breathe - and finally, when you take in air and the anxiety subsides...that's what it's like to be a vampire and need blood.
Francis Ford Coppola - BS Dracula: The Film and the Legend3 -
Volrion✭✭✭✭Akavir_Sentinel wrote: »Instead of having 30+ campaigns based on the number of Champion Points that you have, simply make a couple of veteran and non-veteran campaigns that have Champion Points disabled. They are currently looking into doing just that.
I thought they were getting rid of VR?is PvP broken ?
Only in regards to the difference in power... One shotting etc.
0 -
Volrion✭✭✭✭swanvalkyrie wrote: »
If PvP was your main reason for playing the game I think you'd have a different opinion. Right now you have two options;
Play non-vet
OR
XP grind for hours just so you can be competitive in veteran pvp.
The game itself is fine. Its just the power disparity that needs a slight tune up.
1 -
Akavir_Sentinel✭✭✭✭✭
✭SourishWhale wrote: »Akavir_Sentinel wrote: »Instead of having 30+ campaigns based on the number of Champion Points that you have, simply make a couple of veteran and non-veteran campaigns that have Champion Points disabled. They are currently looking into doing just that.
I thought they were getting rid of VR?is PvP broken ?
Only in regards to the difference in power... One shotting etc.
They are increasing the level cap from VR14 to VR16 with the next update. Veteran ranks aren't being removed anytime soon, if ever.Edited by Akavir_Sentinel on July 21, 2015 2:37AM0 -
Lynx7386✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭How to fix PvP: Get rid of the players that whine every time they get killed.PS4 / NA
M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank5 -
Sausage✭✭✭✭✭
✭There isnt even nearly enough population for that. Thats the thing what most of you dont understand, they cant just put new 10 different servers. PS4 EU, theres only one vet Campaign whats active and PC had 2 vet Campaign when I last played it, what isnt great either.
Btw, if you are really competitive player why arent you playing Dota for example. Are you afraid of real competition. I see no reason for competitive players to come to MMORPG genre. MMORPGs competitive players are just plain losers, they want the advantage, then they want to show their amazing skills and live in denial. Shortly said, competitiviness and MMORPGs does not mix.Edited by Sausage on July 21, 2015 4:12AM1 -
Volrion✭✭✭✭There isnt even nearly enough population for that. Thats the thing what most of you dont understand, they cant just put new 10 different servers. PS4 EU, theres only one vet Campaign whats active and PC had 2 vet Campaign when I last played it, what isnt great either.
Btw, if you are really competitive player why arent you playing Dota for example. Are you afraid of real competition. I see no reason for competitive players to come to MMORPG genre. MMORPGs competitive players are just plain losers, they want the advantage, then they want to show their amazing skills and live in denial. Shortly said, competitiviness and MMORPGs does not mix.
I agree with you mate. However currently there's just too much of a gap to keep it competitive. Btw I like Tamriel and I'm playing this game on console with about 15 of my work mates so I'm hanging around. But as PVPers, we will get bored of having to PVE grind and stop playing if it remains this way...
With the current system in place I just don't see the point of the AOE grind or PVE grind for people who enjoy PVP. They say play how you want to play, but the only option for a PVPer to become powerful enough to compete in Non-Vet is to grind through PVE.
I enjoy PVE, but not nearly as much as I do PVPing.
I understand population is an issue. If you expanded the CP server range you could make it work. Instead of one hundred point segments make it 0/1-200/201-400/600+ for example. (Maybe that would fail too, but i'm just trying to bounce ideas to create a solution that doesn't involve nerfs and diminishing returns for those players who have worked hard to grind their CPs)
Only need 4 servers for that, and could be easily achieved.
NA on PS4 is always full, but it will die eventually if they don't make it more competitive.
With a system like I suggested, you could bridge the gap and progress in PVP without such a large jump and imbalance issues.
Let's say you're a PVEer and you reach VR1. IF from that point on you are expected to clear VR14 content etc to progress, you wouldn't consider that to be a very fair system would you?
Of course not, the content scales with you.
Unfortunately, that's whats expected in PVP at the moment. A VR1 player is expected to either compete against VR14s, or go and grind PVE until he reaches a level high enough to do so... You need to be able to level effectively in PVP without getting stomped lol
Hypothetically speaking; Player A and Player B might both be very good PVPers.
If at the same level, Player A thinks she could beat Player B.
Conversely, Player B thinks he could beat Player A!
Both are right!
HOWEVER, if Player A is VR14 with 300CPs and Player B are VR1 with 0CPs, we both know that Player A is going to win (and vice versa).
Yet if they want to play PVP, they have play in the same game.
That is were the competitive aspect of the game is failing.
You wouldn't put a feather weight in with a heavy weight, unfortunately that's what is happening in Cyrodil at the moment.
My idea is probably flawed, but in order to balance PVP out, there needs to be some tweaking.0 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Hmm why is it ok to make PVE people PVP but not ok to make PVP people PVE? Want to be good at PVP spend some of your time grinding out champ points.2 -
Volrion✭✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Hmm why is it ok to make PVE people PVP but not ok to make PVP people PVE? Want to be good at PVP spend some of your time grinding out champ points.
I don't think it's ok to make anyone do anything.
Grinding doesn't make me 'good at pvp', it just makes my toon more powerful.
See the problem with that?0 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭SourishWhale wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Hmm why is it ok to make PVE people PVP but not ok to make PVP people PVE? Want to be good at PVP spend some of your time grinding out champ points.
I don't think it's ok to make anyone do anything.
Grinding doesn't make me 'good at pvp', it just makes my toon more powerful.
See the problem with that?
But isnt the whole point of playing the game character progression?0 -
Volrion✭✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »SourishWhale wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Hmm why is it ok to make PVE people PVP but not ok to make PVP people PVE? Want to be good at PVP spend some of your time grinding out champ points.
I don't think it's ok to make anyone do anything.
Grinding doesn't make me 'good at pvp', it just makes my toon more powerful.
See the problem with that?
But isnt the whole point of playing the game character progression?
I thought it was to have fun.0 -
Volrion✭✭✭✭Akavir_Sentinel wrote: »Instead of having 30+ campaigns based on the number of Champion Points that you have, simply make a couple of veteran and non-veteran campaigns that have Champion Points disabled. They are currently looking into doing just that.
Either way works for me. As long as success is based on skill and teamwork etc. and not base stats, I'm happy.
Cheers mate.0 -
Volrion✭✭✭✭minmshrsht wrote: »360 Servers Bahahahahaha
Can you even count? Even if it was 100 point caps thats only 36 servers you *** lol
Besides, you could simply open it up after 500 or 600 points anyway.
As mentioned above (If you managed to read anything but the bold font) you would only need 5 divisions based on the current user base.
0 | 1-200 | 201-400 | 401-600 | 600+
Go back to school before you try to be patronising.0 -
Less QQ more pewpew. Maybe you'd earn more cp if you spent less time crying on forums bc your weak and more time in game.1 -
eliisra✭✭✭✭✭
✭crytantrevors wrote: »I wasnt aware it was broken.... Im vet rank 5 and pvp is fine as is
PvP isn't fine because you visited Cyrodill twice on console or something. PvP is broken as hell, but CP is not the main reason.
Lag, bugs, exploitable terrain, exploitable mechanics + skills, lack of class/build balance and the fact that 90% of the population either runs instagibb gank builds or with a 30-50+ man zergs spamming AoE lagging server to crap. Performance dips during primetime being so bad that you cant even place siege or use skills.
About CP imbalance: ZoS needs to add a catch up system for new and returning players. I believe they will. Making 36 different campaigns is probably not a good idea lol.
XP in PvP also needs a major boost. This is were the real CP imbalance exist. Fact that players killing normal PvE mobs like grind bots earns ten times more CP than PvP'ers.1 -
mtwiggz✭✭✭✭✭The Champion Point problem will stem into PvE content as well. The system as a whole needs to be looked at, not just specifically the PvP aspect. As a PvP player primarily I would like to see something done, but campaigns with no CP activated don't seem like the proper fix, more of a ZoS bandaid fix as per usual.
On the side of PvE content, you cannot balance content meant for players of the same level but varying CP.
Players 1-4 are all VR16 doing a VR16 dungeon. Each player only has 200 CP, they struggle to complete it.
Players 5-8 are all VR16 doing the same VR16 dungeon. Each player has 900 CP, they complain the content is too easy.
The Champion System as a whole was not thought out properly. The developer, forgot his/her name, claimed no one would reach near 3600 CP (cap) for several years. Yet we already have players closing in on 1000. This gap will become larger and larger and even more balance issues with come to be in both PvP and PvE.0 -
Volrion✭✭✭✭@eliisra @mtwiggz
Thanks for your contributions. I think there are ways we can optimise it, so that's what I was trying to achieve with this post.
As you said @mtwiggz , taking off CPs in PVP is just a band-aid, the entire system needs to be re-worked to create a better balanced game. Besides, why give people the opportunity to earn them, if they can't use them? Again, it just becomes the same as it is now, you play Non-Vet, Non-CP, or PVE until you reach enough CPs to compete on the real servers. It's as if the devs have no time in game before they come up with some of their ideas.
@eliisra 36 servers is far too much lol, and was never the intention. The jump doesn't have to be linear.
The idea was to have it grow with the player base. Currently the top players are closing in on 1000 CP you say?
Well why not begin with something like this for a server division for example...
0 | 1-200 | 201-400 | 401-600 | 600+
As sufficient numbers progress to the over 600+ servers, simply bump change that to 600-900, and add a 900+ or something.
Next jump after that can be even larger, say 500 or so.
I like the idea of having the people who commit the most time to the game have an advantage, I think they deserve it after all.
But they just need to scale it down a little so it doesn't become GOD MODE.0 -
Volrion✭✭✭✭IBentley92 wrote: »Less QQ more pewpew. Maybe you'd earn more cp if you spent less time crying on forums bc your weak and more time in game.
PvPer wants to play a more balanced, and exciting PVP game in Cyrodil, so EVERYONE can compete;
Option A) Spend 10 minutes posting an idea to potentially help optimise the game and fix the problems with the grindfest that exists for PVP.
Possible outcome; PVP becomes more balanced, competitive, and exciting.
Option
Just shut up and pour 300 hours+ into mind numbing mob grinds and play in a broken system...
Possible outcome; Pvp remains the same. Wastes 300+ hours of his life. Goes into Cyrodil. One Shots opponents. Gets bored. Leaves game.
Not too bright are you, mate?
If you kill me, kill because you outplayed me, kill me because you have a better knowledge of the games mechanics. But don't kill me because you spent half of your waking life the past three months grinding mobs. Thats no way to make a game.
I'm sorry, but I play for fun, and I play to be challenged. Running in circles spamming AOEs fulfils neither...
If I'm not getting either of those out of a game, I have better things to do with my time.0 -
TBois✭✭✭✭✭
✭crytantrevors wrote: »I wasnt aware it was broken.... Im vet rank 5 and pvp is fine as is
PvP isn't fine because you visited Cyrodill twice on console or something. PvP is broken as hell, but CP is not the main reason.
Lag, bugs, exploitable terrain, exploitable mechanics + skills, lack of class/build balance and the fact that 90% of the population either runs instagibb gank builds or with a 30-50+ man zergs spamming AoE lagging server to crap. Performance dips during primetime being so bad that you cant even place siege or use skills.
About CP imbalance: ZoS needs to add a catch up system for new and returning players. I believe they will. Making 36 different campaigns is probably not a good idea lol.
XP in PvP also needs a major boost. This is were the real CP imbalance exist. Fact that players killing normal PvE mobs like grind bots earns ten times more CP than PvP'ers.
This soo much and I only pvp really and often. I'm at 244 and feel fine about where I am. I never feel super underpowered. I die when I make mistakes and I kill people when they make mistakes.PC/NA
T-Bois (Stam Sorc since 1.4) - AD
An Unsettling Snowball (Templar) - AD
Bosquecito (Stam Sorc) - DC
Peti-T-Bois (Stamden) - AD0 -
delushin✭✭✭Fix stability before even wasting time on the CP system, you can hardly play a good "epic" battle without it shitting itself.Raven Guard - PS4 [PvE/PvP] NA Server - Daggerfall Convenant
#1 AUS/NZ Guild - http://ravenguardclan.com/
http://www.twitch.tv/delushin1 -
Vizier✭✭✭✭✭
✭It's not as big a problem as folks are making it out to be IMO. Folks are always gonna complain and find something to point at. Need to leave CP alone and encourage CP accumulation. CP is easy enough to acquire.0 -
Gamertaglemieux✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Hmm why is it ok to make PVE people PVP but not ok to make PVP people PVE? Want to be good at PVP spend some of your time grinding out champ points.
AMEN!!!Queen Ayrenn build that wall around Summerset.
Make Shimmerene great again!0
