manny254 wrote: »

markgd88nrb18_ESO wrote: »

There's already an incentive not to have larger groups: diminishing returns.

The stones are shared amongst the group, the more players the smaller your slice of the pie. You may very well be safe in a 10, 15, 20, 9001+ group, but you'll have jack shite to show for it.

No need to limit group sizes, the devs have done the work already.

Except bad players will get there sh*t kicked in when and loose all there stones. So they will blob up because something is better then nothing.

This.

You can spend an hour solo and lets say make 100 stones and lose it all shortly after ..

Or you can spend that hour killing those players with 100 stones and come out close to that with your 24 man group.

You and your mates are ready to make the Elite Gank Squad with high CP and IC gears I see. New and casuals needs big raid I think.

Ahzek wrote: »

Sure leading a huge group of players is definetly a challenge @Jules, but what challenging is there for the standard player in that huge group ? Spam purge when some1 shouts PURGE! (or simply all the time), spam steeltornado/impluse everywhere you go ? or healing springs for that matter ? Press the ARRRR button when you are asked to do so ? or maybe
*read in desperate, mocking voice* manage your resources ?, that hasnt been an issue since months now and it wont get harder ... (thank you CS for all your gifts ).

I cant see the challenge and requirement for any skill at the game whatsoever in that, and that assumption holds true 95% of the time I fight a player i usually only see in a zerg. Maybe he knows how to hold the block button or is very ambitious with his healing maybe he even uses crushing shock instead of impulse, but unless he has brought some friends such a playersnever pose a threat and it doesnt matter that his alliance rank is over 9000.
(note: this is purely my anedoctal experience and holds no actual value on its own whatsoever, i know it can very well be that every other "large group player" is an incredibly skilled bada$$ that i simply havent fought solo before, but i highly doubt it)

I understand your point of view, but I do not agree with it. I don't hold it against you, as you expressed that you have not run in large groups at all.

Despite popular opinion, playing in group pvp also requires a skill set. You cannot simply hope to stack the largest numbers, faceroll around and win if your group is full of unskilled players. Any group that does this, likely gets farmed by smaller and more skilled guilds. So I think the distinction you made is necessary between a zerg and a raid. Imo, a zerg is 24+ players with little skill and direction running in vaguely the same direction, potatoing into whatever is in front of them. A raid is guild based, players that coordinate through TS and follow a lead with a specific objective, generally 16-24 players and no more.

If you break down individual skill, you break it down into a few different aspects which I've listed below. Each player in a coordinated and successful group exhibits similar skills to those who play solo.


1) Knowing Your Class: Understanding all of the tools that are available to you. IE: Which morphs are preferable, which ST /AOE/ shield abilities can create the desired effect, which passives make you strong and how to use your CP to make up for your class' weaknesses.
2) Comfort With Your Class: This means knowing how class and weapon abilities synergize and being comfortable with a rotation that optimizes these synergies. IE: igneous shield and coagulating blood. I wouldn't pop coag blood first, I because my igneous will give me increase % to heals done. So that will always be used first.
3) Reaction Time: Being able to quickly and accurately assess situations in which you are in danger. Being able to throw up wings before that frag or meteor hits you. Being able to cc break that fear or negate before you're slaughtered. Being able dodge, block, reflect incoming damage in an appropriate amount of time.
4) Maneuverability: The ability to be mobile, actively keeping yourself un-cc'd and in an adventitious position over your opponent. Though running in a large group, there are often times you are following lead but environment/players/ect stand in between you and your objective location. Knowing when to dodge/streak/speed/charge/sneak are all based on the knowledge base of that individual player.
5) Resource Management: As you stated, it is much easier with the use of CP but there is still a method to preserving your resource pools when in combat. Being aware as a magicka DK that you cannot dodge out of every attack for instance. It is more resource-effective to reflect or block as you have block cost reductions on s&s and your magicka pool should be fine with the use of wings.
6) Optimized Gear: Everyone has different methods to how they do this, but all skilled players are aware of their stats and how to min/max them. Preferences vary, but generally you want the highest possible damage with the best sustain. Awareness of cp allocations and different gear sets allow you to accomplish this in a variety of ways. Running in a large group does not mean running the strength in numbers spec in just soul shrivel gear. Now I can only speak for my own guild, but I presume most good guilds theorycraft all of their players builds to be completely optimized for group play.
7) Survivability: Again, the ability to assess situations. Knowing the right moment to attack and when to retreat. Though crown is groups rally point, there are often many players, often enemies that stand between you and them. You will be attacked, prox bombed from side, ganked from behind, ect ect. You HAVE be survivable as an individual even when running in group. Just because you have a healer does not mean you are instantly infallible. Each members' individual survivability is what distinguishes groups that are successful from groups that get rolled.
8) Willingness to Adapt: The meta is constantly changing. People who are skilled are able to see 3 steps ahead, theorycraft new builds, try out alternative play styles and be willing to change. Whether that be changing the way they play or simply the gear they wear, skilled players are always eager for improvement.

I hope this list clarifies for you that those playing in raids or large groups are not always plebs with no concept of game mechanics or skill. It is indeed a challenging and exciting gameplay. It may not be for everyone, but it is important to value and respect players with alternative styles of play. That is what makes Cyrodiil and the open-world theme so great. Players of varying skill and size can coexist, and there is a place for all styles.

Satiar wrote: »

People say those running in zergs or organized guild groups are bad, but if I had to recruit for a 4v4 I know exactly where I go. Best players I've ever played with or seen in game are in those groups of "X spamming baddies" as they get called here.

FENGRUSH isnt in those groups so your statement is a falsehood.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

People say those running in zergs or organized guild groups are bad, but if I had to recruit for a 4v4 I know exactly where I go. Best players I've ever played with or seen in game are in those groups of "X spamming baddies" as they get called here.

FENGRUSH isnt in those groups so your statement is a falsehood.

You are correct in that I would not choose you for an ideal 4v4 team

If I need a stam sorc id have to roll with Koni.

Satiar wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

People say those running in zergs or organized guild groups are bad, but if I had to recruit for a 4v4 I know exactly where I go. Best players I've ever played with or seen in game are in those groups of "X spamming baddies" as they get called here.

FENGRUSH isnt in those groups so your statement is a falsehood.

You are correct in that I would not choose you for an ideal 4v4 team

If I need a stam sorc id have to roll with Koni.

Trying to insult The Lord by considering FENGRUSH less than one of His most respected and friendly adversaries ever discovered in His journey through Tamriel. Koni and FENGRUSH are cut from the same cloth. FENGRUSH doesnt measure Himself against those worthy of a Lords title. You are likely unaware of the bond these two great warriors have shared.

But please continue to attempt insulting The Lord FENGRUSH. It is a natural state for those struck down by FENGRUSH to attempt slandering Him through words. The more formidable warriors of Cyrodiil show respect where it is due, but there may still be time for you to repent.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

People say those running in zergs or organized guild groups are bad, but if I had to recruit for a 4v4 I know exactly where I go. Best players I've ever played with or seen in game are in those groups of "X spamming baddies" as they get called here.

FENGRUSH isnt in those groups so your statement is a falsehood.

You are correct in that I would not choose you for an ideal 4v4 team

If I need a stam sorc id have to roll with Koni.

Trying to insult The Lord by considering FENGRUSH less than one of His most respected and friendly adversaries ever discovered in His journey through Tamriel. Koni and FENGRUSH are cut from the same cloth. FENGRUSH doesnt measure Himself against those worthy of a Lords title. You are likely unaware of the bond these two great warriors have shared.

But please continue to attempt insulting The Lord FENGRUSH. It is a natural state for those struck down by FENGRUSH to attempt slandering Him through words. The more formidable warriors of Cyrodiil show respect where it is due, but there may still be time for you to repent.

I'm afraid I have no love left to give. Argonian Sorcs and Khajit NBs have taken all that I could offer.

Jules wrote: »

Ahzek wrote: »

Sure leading a huge group of players is definetly a challenge @Jules, but what challenging is there for the standard player in that huge group ? Spam purge when some1 shouts PURGE! (or simply all the time), spam steeltornado/impluse everywhere you go ? or healing springs for that matter ? Press the ARRRR button when you are asked to do so ? or maybe
*read in desperate, mocking voice* manage your resources ?, that hasnt been an issue since months now and it wont get harder ... (thank you CS for all your gifts ).

I cant see the challenge and requirement for any skill at the game whatsoever in that, and that assumption holds true 95% of the time I fight a player i usually only see in a zerg. Maybe he knows how to hold the block button or is very ambitious with his healing maybe he even uses crushing shock instead of impulse, but unless he has brought some friends such a playersnever pose a threat and it doesnt matter that his alliance rank is over 9000.
(note: this is purely my anedoctal experience and holds no actual value on its own whatsoever, i know it can very well be that every other "large group player" is an incredibly skilled bada$$ that i simply havent fought solo before, but i highly doubt it)

I understand your point of view, but I do not agree with it. I don't hold it against you, as you expressed that you have not run in large groups at all.

Despite popular opinion, playing in group pvp also requires a skill set. You cannot simply hope to stack the largest numbers, faceroll around and win if your group is full of unskilled players. Any group that does this, likely gets farmed by smaller and more skilled guilds. So I think the distinction you made is necessary between a zerg and a raid. Imo, a zerg is 24+ players with little skill and direction running in vaguely the same direction, potatoing into whatever is in front of them. A raid is guild based, players that coordinate through TS and follow a lead with a specific objective, generally 16-24 players and no more.

If you break down individual skill, you break it down into a few different aspects which I've listed below. Each player in a coordinated and successful group exhibits similar skills to those who play solo.


1) Knowing Your Class: Understanding all of the tools that are available to you. IE: Which morphs are preferable, which ST /AOE/ shield abilities can create the desired effect, which passives make you strong and how to use your CP to make up for your class' weaknesses.
2) Comfort With Your Class: This means knowing how class and weapon abilities synergize and being comfortable with a rotation that optimizes these synergies. IE: igneous shield and coagulating blood. I wouldn't pop coag blood first, I because my igneous will give me increase % to heals done. So that will always be used first.
3) Reaction Time: Being able to quickly and accurately assess situations in which you are in danger. Being able to throw up wings before that frag or meteor hits you. Being able to cc break that fear or negate before you're slaughtered. Being able dodge, block, reflect incoming damage in an appropriate amount of time.
4) Maneuverability: The ability to be mobile, actively keeping yourself un-cc'd and in an adventitious position over your opponent. Though running in a large group, there are often times you are following lead but environment/players/ect stand in between you and your objective location. Knowing when to dodge/streak/speed/charge/sneak are all based on the knowledge base of that individual player.
5) Resource Management: As you stated, it is much easier with the use of CP but there is still a method to preserving your resource pools when in combat. Being aware as a magicka DK that you cannot dodge out of every attack for instance. It is more resource-effective to reflect or block as you have block cost reductions on s&s and your magicka pool should be fine with the use of wings.
6) Optimized Gear: Everyone has different methods to how they do this, but all skilled players are aware of their stats and how to min/max them. Preferences vary, but generally you want the highest possible damage with the best sustain. Awareness of cp allocations and different gear sets allow you to accomplish this in a variety of ways. Running in a large group does not mean running the strength in numbers spec in just soul shrivel gear. Now I can only speak for my own guild, but I presume most good guilds theorycraft all of their players builds to be completely optimized for group play.
7) Survivability: Again, the ability to assess situations. Knowing the right moment to attack and when to retreat. Though crown is groups rally point, there are often many players, often enemies that stand between you and them. You will be attacked, prox bombed from side, ganked from behind, ect ect. You HAVE be survivable as an individual even when running in group. Just because you have a healer does not mean you are instantly infallible. Each members' individual survivability is what distinguishes groups that are successful from groups that get rolled.
8) Willingness to Adapt: The meta is constantly changing. People who are skilled are able to see 3 steps ahead, theorycraft new builds, try out alternative play styles and be willing to change. Whether that be changing the way they play or simply the gear they wear, skilled players are always eager for improvement.

I hope this list clarifies for you that those playing in raids or large groups are not always plebs with no concept of game mechanics or skill. It is indeed a challenging and exciting gameplay. It may not be for everyone, but it is important to value and respect players with alternative styles of play. That is what makes Cyrodiil and the open-world theme so great. Players of varying skill and size can coexist, and there is a place for all styles.

Do you even PvP, sir?

FENGRUSH is more along the lines of ZOS doesnt give a single damn if a poll was made and 5000 votes came in for 95% to limit group size <12 players that they would simply push it in and 'see how it goes'.

Theres no communication or consideration from ZOS especially in the PVP environment. Unfortunately, there isnt much experience or foresight there either.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

FENGRUSH is more along the lines of ZOS doesnt give a single damn if a poll was made and 5000 votes came in for 95% to limit group size <12 players that they would simply push it in and 'see how it goes'.

Theres no communication or consideration from ZOS especially in the PVP environment. Unfortunately, there isnt much experience or foresight there either.

QTF

infracanisub17_ESO wrote: »

Aunatar wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Ahzek wrote: »

Sure leading a huge group of players is definetly a challenge @Jules, but what challenging is there for the standard player in that huge group ? Spam purge when some1 shouts PURGE! (or simply all the time), spam steeltornado/impluse everywhere you go ? or healing springs for that matter ? Press the ARRRR button when you are asked to do so ? or maybe
*read in desperate, mocking voice* manage your resources ?, that hasnt been an issue since months now and it wont get harder ... (thank you CS for all your gifts ).

I cant see the challenge and requirement for any skill at the game whatsoever in that, and that assumption holds true 95% of the time I fight a player i usually only see in a zerg. Maybe he knows how to hold the block button or is very ambitious with his healing maybe he even uses crushing shock instead of impulse, but unless he has brought some friends such a playersnever pose a threat and it doesnt matter that his alliance rank is over 9000.
(note: this is purely my anedoctal experience and holds no actual value on its own whatsoever, i know it can very well be that every other "large group player" is an incredibly skilled bada$$ that i simply havent fought solo before, but i highly doubt it)

I understand your point of view, but I do not agree with it. I don't hold it against you, as you expressed that you have not run in large groups at all.

Despite popular opinion, playing in group pvp also requires a skill set. You cannot simply hope to stack the largest numbers, faceroll around and win if your group is full of unskilled players. Any group that does this, likely gets farmed by smaller and more skilled guilds. So I think the distinction you made is necessary between a zerg and a raid. Imo, a zerg is 24+ players with little skill and direction running in vaguely the same direction, potatoing into whatever is in front of them. A raid is guild based, players that coordinate through TS and follow a lead with a specific objective, generally 16-24 players and no more.

If you break down individual skill, you break it down into a few different aspects which I've listed below. Each player in a coordinated and successful group exhibits similar skills to those who play solo.


1) Knowing Your Class: Understanding all of the tools that are available to you. IE: Which morphs are preferable, which ST /AOE/ shield abilities can create the desired effect, which passives make you strong and how to use your CP to make up for your class' weaknesses.
2) Comfort With Your Class: This means knowing how class and weapon abilities synergize and being comfortable with a rotation that optimizes these synergies. IE: igneous shield and coagulating blood. I wouldn't pop coag blood first, I because my igneous will give me increase % to heals done. So that will always be used first.
3) Reaction Time: Being able to quickly and accurately assess situations in which you are in danger. Being able to throw up wings before that frag or meteor hits you. Being able to cc break that fear or negate before you're slaughtered. Being able dodge, block, reflect incoming damage in an appropriate amount of time.
4) Maneuverability: The ability to be mobile, actively keeping yourself un-cc'd and in an adventitious position over your opponent. Though running in a large group, there are often times you are following lead but environment/players/ect stand in between you and your objective location. Knowing when to dodge/streak/speed/charge/sneak are all based on the knowledge base of that individual player.
5) Resource Management: As you stated, it is much easier with the use of CP but there is still a method to preserving your resource pools when in combat. Being aware as a magicka DK that you cannot dodge out of every attack for instance. It is more resource-effective to reflect or block as you have block cost reductions on s&s and your magicka pool should be fine with the use of wings.
6) Optimized Gear: Everyone has different methods to how they do this, but all skilled players are aware of their stats and how to min/max them. Preferences vary, but generally you want the highest possible damage with the best sustain. Awareness of cp allocations and different gear sets allow you to accomplish this in a variety of ways. Running in a large group does not mean running the strength in numbers spec in just soul shrivel gear. Now I can only speak for my own guild, but I presume most good guilds theorycraft all of their players builds to be completely optimized for group play.
7) Survivability: Again, the ability to assess situations. Knowing the right moment to attack and when to retreat. Though crown is groups rally point, there are often many players, often enemies that stand between you and them. You will be attacked, prox bombed from side, ganked from behind, ect ect. You HAVE be survivable as an individual even when running in group. Just because you have a healer does not mean you are instantly infallible. Each members' individual survivability is what distinguishes groups that are successful from groups that get rolled.
8) Willingness to Adapt: The meta is constantly changing. People who are skilled are able to see 3 steps ahead, theorycraft new builds, try out alternative play styles and be willing to change. Whether that be changing the way they play or simply the gear they wear, skilled players are always eager for improvement.

I hope this list clarifies for you that those playing in raids or large groups are not always plebs with no concept of game mechanics or skill. It is indeed a challenging and exciting gameplay. It may not be for everyone, but it is important to value and respect players with alternative styles of play. That is what makes Cyrodiil and the open-world theme so great. Players of varying skill and size can coexist, and there is a place for all styles.

Do you even PvP, sir?

Do you even AvA?

Do you even AvAvA ?

In a real life scenario

Large group running around tightly packed would get rolled by a ambush group with explosives.

In ESO

Large group running around gets bonus because AOE scales down by the number of targets hit and not scaled down by the area in which you are standing.

Change AOE to range ring scale down and this fixes the zerg issue.
Blast rad, then next ring , then next ring. so on and so on.

This would allow a small group of players to affect a large group of players that are carelessly running around in a group and not spreading out to lessen AOE. Seems like the easiest way to fix this. I do not believe this would stop people from zerging but this would at least allow for ambushing and guerrilla warfare tactics. These 2 tactics are the best way to deal with a larger force.

I'm on the fence about Zerg vs. small scale. Again I won't criticize until I see the content. It will mostly depend on the scale of IC. If the place isn't relatively big enough to make two 24 man Zerg teams go at it in a functioning environment, then I see it will be an issue. If this is not the case, open the doors and let the fight begin. I do enjoy seeing the player ideas an won't presume my play style is the same as anybody's. lets try and be constructive about it and avoid arguing for the sake of just arguing. Don't just bash a player for being informative about their ideas. If you disagree, state that without attacking someone for thier opinion.

I say we should just wait for the IC on PTS. People are already complaining about all sorts of things while we haven't even seen and felt what the changes and the new content are really like in game. I myself am not a huge fan of zergs/large groups (I just don't see the fun of it, but that's just me). Although, if there is enough space for large groups to fight, and we have enough other places to go if the lagfest becomes too much, I think it's fine