Arbitrator wrote: »

Channeled Focus morph doesn't restore enough Magicka for squat.

Channeled Focus is a free 500 magicka regeneration / 2 seconds that works with any build. I would hope they never et rid of it.

Templar tanks really need some kind of root. Every other class has at least one (even NB's have a single target one).

@Threadstarter, you're by far "too intellectual" for an average console player, why don't you get a PC?

/edit ok ok , I got the answer: "less bugs and crashes"

Ffastyl wrote: »

The problem you are running into is a mechanic called Taunt Immunity. The intent of Taunt Immunity is to prevent two tanks from taunting a boss at opposite ends of a room, ping-ponging the boss and preventing it from attacking anything because it is constantly trying to move to target. Taunt Immunity kicks in once 3 taunts have been executed on the enemy within a 10 second time frame. Taunts last 15 seconds, so using them when needed will not invoke Taunt Immunity. ZOS has admitted the flaws of this system and is changing it in Update 7 so Taunt Immunity only occurs if 1 or more of the 3 taunts is from another person. In other words, if you are the only person taunting an enemy Taunt Immunity will never activate, no matter how often you taunt the enemy.

In regards to general agro generation: Enemy AI typically targets the closest threat source, not the highest. However enemies do keep track of a threat table and will defy this logic when a player's threat is too high. The event is colloquially referred to as over-DPSing and over-healing. AoE abilities generate the most threat by hitting the most targets simultaneously, thus your Dragonknight friend is over-DPSing.

A tip for preventing Taunt Immunity from activating: the Major Fracture debuff on Puncture appears on the enemy's health bar as a series of fractures. This debuff lasts 12 seconds. When it wears off, you have 3 seconds until the taunt wears off as well.

Arbitrator wrote:

Rune Focus is garbage. It requires you to stand still, which is impossible for a tank because we have to spend our time trying to protect everyone and move out of bad stuff. Its morphs are even worse. Channeled Focus morph doesn't restore enough Magicka for squat. Restoring Focus morphs increased Healing Received doesn't mean much since you don't have time to stand in the focus to begin with. The Heavy Armor Skill Line's Immovable is vastly superior to Rune Focus.

The buff from Rune Focus and its morphs lasts for 8 seconds outside of the rune. This is stated in the tooltip. Restoring Focus I have not seen much, but Channeled Focus is a fantastic morph that provides in effect +480 Magicka Regeneration. It refunds itself with the return and grants all Templar builds enough Magicka Regeneration to go Magicka heavy when the time calls for it.

Templars did have an AoE CC ability called Blinding Light, long ago. It gave enemies a 50% miss chance and missed attacks set the attacker Off-Balance. Due to the sheer power of it, many enemies were made immune to its effects. Outcry at a lack of an in-class execute for Templars caused the ability to be replaced by Radiant Destruction. A few do miss Blinding Light, but far fewer than those happy to have an in-class execute.

I have seen taunt immunity in other games before, but normally that's just because certain fights are designed so that DPS and Healers have pressure put on them while the tanks are running some kind of mechanic. The way Taunt Immunity works in this game is unhealthy for creative mechanics that encourage boss-swapping or die. Most mmos have certain fights where you have multiple bosses and after so many seconds you have to swap due to taking too many stacks of (INSERT X BAD STUFF HERE) or something similar to that and if you don't swap then you die. This helps to encourage skillful play and keeps things interesting. Ping-Ponging the boss wouldn't even be an issue if fights were designed with the knowledge that people may try to do that beforehand.

Concerning general aggro generation, I am under the assumption that the only way to increase damage for weapons is through increasing stamina and to increase damage for spells you increase magicka, correct? As a Tank I should be investing into Health for survivability, therefore my damage would be lower than a DPS. There is no way for a Tank to maintain aggro by "Out-DPSing" which is why most games give a threat multiplier to Tanks to make up the difference. This game has no threat multiplier and requires all tanks to take up an ability slot(or 2) with a Taunt(s) that is(are) generic and is only used every so often.

My problem stems from the fact that even though I take the big baddies, when I see an ally in trouble and I want to get some weaker baddies off him... I am unable to do so. I've had moments where I can see the dark red glow above their head after I taunt them, but the enemy still wouldn't come to me. Since they wont come to me I have to try to control them someway, but I cant do that because Templars have no AoE control. It looks as if going DragonKnight DPS is actually a more effective tank, than trying to spec for full tank as any class! If my buddy is able to survive that well as a DPS without going for a health build, and still maintain aggro through "Out-DPSing", all the while having an arsenal of CC at his disposal, wouldn't it be best to just spec for a DPS build and swap in a taunt? Granted we haven't run any trials yet, this is strictly Vet Dungeon experiences I'm coming from.

(I know not to taunt them more than 3 times back to back because I had already read that somewhere. I'm not being a noob lol its just sometimes even when they are taunted they just wont come to me.)

Regarding Channeled Focus, it just doesn't seem to be all that great to me. It doesn't feel like it restores enough to be worthwhile. Heavy Armor's Skill Line ability Immovable grants immunity to knockbacks and disabling effects, and I can run all over the place while maintaining the Armor+Spell Resistance buff. Granted, it does cost a hefty bit more. Look at Spiked Armor from DragonKnight's for instance though. They can run all over the place with their Armor+Spell Resistance buff always on, all the while returning damage to attackers, AND if its morphed they can get a Damage Shield on activation and it doesn't cost that much magicka. I just don't understand why Rune Focus and its morphs are so sub-par to other similar skills.

Francescolg wrote: »

@Threadstarter, you're by far "too intellectual" for an average console player, why don't you get a PC?

/edit ok ok , I got the answer: "less bugs and crashes"

Lol nah I've got a nice gaming PC its just we had so many buddies getting it for Xbox One that we all decided to just play it on there instead. Certain games we like on console, certain ones on PC.

uniq_faznrb18_ESO wrote: »

Tanking in this game is far different from your previous mmo I presume. Its more of target prioritisation, then just grabbing all targets and expect all targets to stick like glue. What you and your friends did was right, in terms of you taking the heat from the big baddies while your group handles the rest.

While I agree that templars néed more cc options in terms of tanking but templars have really good offheals capabillities that other classes dont have. Nightblades comes close but not to the extend of templar's bol or even remembrance.

Taunt immunity is needed, it gives the tank more things to do ( in theory) by debuffing the target, oftheal if possible and basically control the biggies.

Even though some of these don't necessarily "heal" allies, they provide enough of a survivability buff that they can sometimes be better than a solid heal just due to the buffer time that they give your allies to react accordingly. Just being able to buy some time by throwing a damage shield on someone, or reducing damage, etc... can be a big enough help to allow an ally to use their own defensives and self-heals. Utility can come in all shapes and sizes, not just heals.. For example: DragonKnights can put a 100% shield on allies with Magma Armor and then spam another shield on them with Obsidian Shield. Sorcerers have Negate Magic and its morphs to protect and buff allies. NightBlades have Funnel Health, Consuming Darkness, Refreshing Path, Soul Siphon, and Sap Essence all to restore health to allies. The only really good off-heals from Restoring Light are Breath of Life, Purifying Ritual, and Remembrance in my experience. And if Breath Of Life didn't exist, then I highly doubt Templar's would be considered the #1 healer. The one common thing all the classes listed above have that Templars don't, is AoE control. So Templars are pretty much giving up AoE CC just for the only true spammable burst heal in the game, Breath of Life, which costs a hefty chunk of magicka anyways.

I'd go so far to say that if Templars didn't have Breath of Life, then DragonKnights could be considered the best healing class in the game (also best tanks from what I have seen). Simply because Remembrance heals a set amount, where as Magma Armor puts 100% of their health as a damage shield. If you've got a 30k or 40k hp tank and you throw 100% damage shield on him, that's far better than remembrance and the damage shield buys you time to really heal him and also buys time for the tank to use his stuff as well. Since damage shields essentially increase your effective health pool, when you get attacked all the damage is pretty much "disappearing" as if it never hit you since its not actually reducing your real health pool.

I just think Templars need a few things worked on that bring them up to par with everyone else. I'd personally vote for getting rid of breath of life if we could get some of the utility/CC that the other classes have.

Templars definately need a change as they are only optimized for being healers as things are currently, their DPS is not as good as other classes, and their tanking is also not as good as other classes, same can be said for their general usefulness and utility.

Caltrops from PvP is all the CC you will need. But without that, while the Templar is lacking, it is not all that bad, can grab 3 mobs on the way into combat and then more as you get there if you want. Even without CC you can keep almost an antire pack of mobs on you as long as you have what it takes to survive.
The taunt immunity mechanic is being altered where the 3 time limit is only for if other tanks also taunt I think, so that will be good.
I would love to see blazing spear changed from single stun to an aoe snare.

Another term that gets thrown around a lot in MMO's is "homogenization." For example: " well we don't want you to have this just because x class has that too! We want all playstyles to be different and unique so that when you play or encounter each class you have a different experience."

Ok. So give Templars AoE CC that is unique to them. You can give all classes survivability skills and still make it unique. You can give all classes damaging moves/executes and still make it unique. You can give all classes CC and still make it unique. The effects and animations may vary but they all should have the same options available to them. The way it is now its like they designed 4 cars but only put tires on three of them. Sure, the one without tires can run on wheels but the rides going to be rough, the wheels are going to be ruined and it just doesn't perform the same as if it had tires. Need I go on? Lol

uniq_faznrb18_ESO wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

Another term that gets thrown around a lot in MMO's is "homogenization." For example: " well we don't want you to have this just because x class has that too! We want all playstyles to be different and unique so that when you play or encounter each class you have a different experience."

Ok. So give Templars AoE CC that is unique to them. You can give all classes survivability skills and still make it unique. You can give all classes damaging moves/executes and still make it unique. You can give all classes CC and still make it unique. The effects and animations may vary but they all should have the same options available to them. The way it is now its like they designed 4 cars but only put tires on three of them. Sure, the one without tires can run on wheels but the rides going to be rough, the wheels are going to be ruined and it just doesn't perform the same as if it had tires. Need I go on? Lol

Thats the wrong analogy. All cars(classes) have access to wheels (weapons), steering wheel (guild), headlights (world skill lines). But each of these four cars have a different look, different style. You can't compare a Nissan with a Hummer for eg but its different in ways that are unique to itself. Yet they all have wheels, they all have steering and they all have headlights. A hummer is better than a Nissan in some ways, but a Nissan is better in some.

Homogenization is when you insist that the hummer has less fuel consumption and that the Nissan has better offroad capabilities. Its a different beast when you say right now they only have 3 tires which is not even the case. All of them can do pvp effectively. All of them can do pve effectively as well. But the classes are different. Which should be the case in point.

I play as a nightblade but I dont want templars healing capabilities. I want to maintain my status quo as the premier ganker or burst damage dealer. Its a different gameplay. Nor do I want to have that much tankiness of the dragonknight since that will surely affect my damage output or lessen my choices for a nightblade.

I believe you're missing my representation. I was referring to wheels as a function of the car itself. For instance, lets say each class has 4 pillars that must be covered before it can be considered completely viable for all roles. The pillars consist of Survivability, Utility, Sustainability, and Damage. Under each pillar you will find even more categories, in this case lets use Utility. Utility may have a category for Ally Synergies, Single Target Control, Multi-Target Control (AoE), Buffs, Debuffs, Mobility, etc... the list goes on and on. Three of the classes have every one of these categories taken care of, and Templars are left with their Multi-Target Control being completely forgot about. Since Multi-Target Control is not even take care of, this reduces the Templars effectiveness in situations where they are outnumbered, situations where they are trying to protect their allies, and situations where their utility and control could help to increase their survivability of others (because control also intertwines with survivability).

And to what extent do they give up this control? For "Templar's healing capabilities?" Every other class has the tools they need to provide just as much survivability (if not more) as the Templar does. The only thing unique to the Templar is they have the only spammable burst heal in the game (breath of life) that can be used on others, and it costs a chunk of magicka. As I already stated before, other classes have utility such as damage shields, etc... that are more often than not better than breath of life that they are able to use on others. Not to mention that every class has various ways to protect themselves as well, (dragons blood, shadow cloak, bolt escape, etc...)

Another thing you are forgetting is that NightBlades are not just a "premier ganker and burst damage dealer" like you are suggesting. NightBlades, and all classes, were designed with the intent that they could perform ANY role effectively. That means you can have a NightBlade Tank, a NightBlade Healer, and a NightBlade DPS. Class does not determine your role in this game like it does in others. The point Im trying to make though, is the fact that Templars can not perform the Tank role as effectively as any of the other classes because they have a lack of Multi-Target Control, otherwise known as AoE CC. The lack of AoE CC hinders tanking considerably simply due to the way tanking works in this game. Every other class' lack of "breath of life" however does not considerably hurt their ability to heal. Breath of Life is not required to heal effectively in this game, but AoE CC IS required to tank effectively.

In other words, let the uniqueness come from animations, effects,(look and style), etc... but do NOT let the uniqueness be a lack of a major component (i.e. the "tires"). What Im trying to say is that the "components" and the way they work (effects/animations) should be what makes each car (class) unique, but that every car (class) should have all said components (in this case, AoE CC). Templars are simply missing a component altogether.

uniq_faznrb18_ESO wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

uniq_faznrb18_ESO wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

Another term that gets thrown around a lot in MMO's is "homogenization." For example: " well we don't want you to have this just because x class has that too! We want all playstyles to be different and unique so that when you play or encounter each class you have a different experience."

Ok. So give Templars AoE CC that is unique to them. You can give all classes survivability skills and still make it unique. You can give all classes damaging moves/executes and still make it unique. You can give all classes CC and still make it unique. The effects and animations may vary but they all should have the same options available to them. The way it is now its like they designed 4 cars but only put tires on three of them. Sure, the one without tires can run on wheels but the rides going to be rough, the wheels are going to be ruined and it just doesn't perform the same as if it had tires. Need I go on? Lol

Thats the wrong analogy. All cars(classes) have access to wheels (weapons), steering wheel (guild), headlights (world skill lines). But each of these four cars have a different look, different style. You can't compare a Nissan with a Hummer for eg but its different in ways that are unique to itself. Yet they all have wheels, they all have steering and they all have headlights. A hummer is better than a Nissan in some ways, but a Nissan is better in some.

Homogenization is when you insist that the hummer has less fuel consumption and that the Nissan has better offroad capabilities. Its a different beast when you say right now they only have 3 tires which is not even the case. All of them can do pvp effectively. All of them can do pve effectively as well. But the classes are different. Which should be the case in point.

I play as a nightblade but I dont want templars healing capabilities. I want to maintain my status quo as the premier ganker or burst damage dealer. Its a different gameplay. Nor do I want to have that much tankiness of the dragonknight since that will surely affect my damage output or lessen my choices for a nightblade.

I believe you're missing my representation. I was referring to wheels as a function of the car itself. For instance, lets say each class has 4 pillars that must be covered before it can be considered completely viable for all roles. The pillars consist of Survivability, Utility, Sustainability, and Damage. Under each pillar you will find even more categories, in this case lets use Utility. Utility may have a category for Ally Synergies, Single Target Control, Multi-Target Control (AoE), Buffs, Debuffs, Mobility, etc... the list goes on and on. Three of the classes have every one of these categories taken care of, and Templars are left with their Multi-Target Control being completely forgot about. Since Multi-Target Control is not even take care of, this reduces the Templars effectiveness in situations where they are outnumbered, situations where they are trying to protect their allies, and situations where their utility and control could help to increase their survivability or others (because control also intertwines with survivability).

And to what extent do they give up this control? For "Templar's healing capabilities?" Every other class has the tools they need to provide just as much survivability (if not more) as the Templar does. The only thing unique to the Templar is they have the only spammable burst heal in the game (breath of life) that can be used on others, and it costs a chunk of magicka. As I already stated before, other classes have utility such as damage shields, etc... that are more often than not better than breath of life that they are able to use on others. Not to mention that every class has various ways to protect themselves as well, (dragons blood, shadow cloak, bolt escape, etc...)

Another thing you are forgetting is that NightBlades are not just a "premier ganker and burst damage dealer" like you are suggesting. NightBlades, and all classes, were designed with the intent that they could perform ANY role effectively. That means you can have a NightBlade Tank, a NightBlade Healer, and a NightBlade DPS. Class does not determine your role in this game like it does in others. The point Im trying to make though, is the fact that Templars can not perform the Tank role as effectively as any of the other classes because they have a lack of Multi-Target Control, otherwise known as AoE CC. The lack of AoE CC hinders tanking considerably simply due to the way tanking works in this game. Every other classes lack of "breath of life" however does not considerably hurt their ability to heal. Breath of Life is not required to heal effectively in this game, but AoE CC IS required to tank effectively.

In other words, let the uniqueness come from animations, effects,(look and style), etc... but do NOT let the uniqueness be a lack of a major component (i.e. the "tires"). What Im trying to say is that the "components" and the way they work (effects/animations) should be what makes each car (class) unique, but that every car (class) should have all said components (in this case, AoE CC). Templars are simply missing a component altogether.

I have to respectfully disagree. As you say, each class can do multiple roles, effectively. So the things that makes a role are the weapons, not the class. As such, that is an integral part of the game, which is open to all classes. That is the important part, because at the end of the day, why have classes if you are able to do what the other classes can do? Thats the trouble with homogenization.

And survivability is a huge umbrella of abilities. It ties in with crowd control, healing, damage mitigation, even ability rotation.. Templars has a tree full of healing capabilities that no other class has. That gives templars awesome survival.

Now im not saying that templars do not need an aoe cc, its more for "if I give this utility to a Templar, what would happen to balancing pvp or pve?" perhaps a cc that blinds, or disorients which will then give more meaning to dual wield passives.

And there are lot of uniqueness of templars, aside from the said "spammable heals". Only templars have the ability to gain resources for free with corpses, the ability to cast a channeled group heal as an ultimate (the ultimate oh *** button imo), so many group utilities ( shards, purifying ritual, etc..) which in itself is only bound to Templars.

Im all up for group Synergies, better group utilities that help the pve and pvp scene, then trying to homogenize the classes and reduce it to just animations and not actual gameplay class mechanics.

Weapons do not determine your role either in my opinion. You can tank with a bow, one hand and shield, two hander, etc... IF you have the right setup. Sure, a one hand and shield will provide the most mitigation but its a tradeoff between do I want more mitigation? Or do I want more damage, threat and spell effectiveness? Do I want range with a bow or D-Staff? Do I want the abilities offered to me by going R-Staff? You can block with any weapon, and every class can roll dodge. That's why I'd say that your role is determined by your choice of abilities, rather than your choice of weapon. Are some weapons better suited for a certain role? Absolutely. All Healer's are pretty much stuck with a R-Staff. Templars CAN heal without a R-Staff, but its not as effective as it would be with the options available if they had chosen a R-Staff. All Tank's are stuck with One-Hand and Shield if they want a melee taunt.

You have classes so that you get a different feel and gameplay experience than if you had played another class. Each class is made up of the same components (i.e. Survivability, Sustainability, Utility, Damage, and all the subcategories under each of these) except Templars which are missing the component of AoE CC. The difference in the components of each class is the overall "effects" ( how each ability performs) and the "animations" (how each ability looks/theme of class). Templars are missing a component altogether, which is unique AoE CC. The problem with this is that Templars don't just have a weak AoE CC or a AoE CC that works differently than other classes, they are missing unique AoE CC altogether.

Survivability, Sustainability, Damage and Utility all intertwine and sometimes abilities overlap. Crowd Control is still considered Utility, but it can still overlap and help your Survivability, Damage, and Sustainability. You say "Templar has a tree full of healing capabilities that contributes to their awesome survival." Healing is not the only form of survival. You have avoidance, mitigation, damage shields, etc... Every other class has the ability to survive just as much as the Templar does (through their components) but their components differ in their "effect" and "animation". A Bubble Shield is not a heal, but it still contributes to your survivability in the same manner a heal would correct? That's the point I'm trying to make here. A cloak(stealth out) is not a heal and it functions differently, but it still contributes to your survivability in the same manner a heal would. So what makes Templars heals so special? It's not the fact that they can be used to increase personal survivability, but the fact that their heals can also increase others survivability and they can heal others without the use of a restoration staff.

But... NightBlades have abilities to heal others without a restoration staff as well. Consuming Darkness, Funnel Health, Soul Siphon, Refreshing Path and Sap Essence all allow you to heal others. DragonKnights can effect others survivability in the same manner a heal would, except they do so by bubbles. Obsidian Shield and Magma Armor both allow you to shield allies. Sorcerers have Negate Magic to stun and silence enemies while buffing allies and reducing the damage they take. Granted, Sorcerers group utility is more about buffing damage than actually affecting survivability like the others classes do. What do all these classes but the Templar have in common though? They all have AoE CC. AoE CC also affects ally survivability by the manner of avoidance which functionally has the same effect on survivability as a heal does.

So what is so unique about the Templar having heals anymore? If every other class has the ability to provide just as much survivability to others through avoidance, damage shields, etc... then how is that any less effective than a heal? The end result is the same and most of the time avoidance, damage shields, etc... are much better than a heal simply because they provide a much longer buffer time for someone to react.

Lets breakdown what you said is unique to the Templar:

• Repentance consuming corpses to refill Health and Stamina. This falls under the pillar of Sustainability. Every other class has a way (component) to sustain themselves. What varies is the manner in which they do so, which is "effect" and "animation."
  
• Remembrance AoE "Oh ***" button. It provides survivability to allies and yourself through the manner of direct healing. Every other class has a way to provide survivability to themselves and allies as well. What varies? The "effects" and "animations." DragonKnights bubble shielding allies is functionally equivalent to Templars healing. NightBlades healing is functionally equivalent to Templars healing. Sorcerers avoidance granted through sustainable control that they provide is functionally equivalent to Templars healing, (although Sorcerers are more "offensively" oriented with their group utility.)
  
• Group Synergies such as (Shards, Purifying Ritual). Every class has group Synergies. The "effects" and "animations" are what varies between class to class, but they ALL share the same component which is the fact that they ALL have group synergies.

What I'm trying to show you is that every class has all of the components that me and you have both stated, except Templar. Templar's are completely missing an AoE CC component that is unique to their class. Every class has sustainability, every class has self-heals, every class has group synergies, every class has single target CC, every class has the ability to provide survivability to allies that is functionally equivalent to a heal, etc... BUT, Templars are missing AoE CC where as every other class is not.

Now what are some things that other classes are missing?

• DragonKnights don't have an in-class execute. Are executes absolutely necessary to perform a role though? No they are not. Executes are simply additional "flavor" added to the Damage pillar. AoE CC on the other hand is absolutely necessary if you want to perform the role of a tank in this game though. Do I believe DragonKnights should get an in-class execute at some point in the future? Yes I do.
  
• Sorcerers don't have many defensive group synergies because most of their synergies are offensive based. Should they add some defensive synergies in the future? That's up to the developers and community. Sorcerers arguably already have the best sustainability in the game, therefore they have infinite control. Does their ability to control enemies so well counteract the need for defensive group synergies? That's up to the developers and community. Do Sorcerers still have Group Synergies though? Yes they do.

I am in no way trying to say that classes should be homogenized to where the only difference is animations. I am saying that every class should consist of the same components if they intend for every class to be able to perform every role, and if they want a sense of balance. Every class should consist of the same components, but the "effects" and "animations" should vary. For instance lets look at a survivability tool for each class: DragonKnight's can have Hardened Armor, NightBlade's can have Dark Cloak, Sorcerer's can have Hardened Ward, and Templar's can have Blazing Shield. Each of these abilities can be used to provide survivability in some way, shape or form, correct? The "effects" and "animations" vary, but at the end of the day each class all still have a survivability tool. See what I'm getting at? Each class should have the same tools or components so that they can be effective at any role, but the "effects" and "animations" of their tools or components should be what makes them unique, not the lack of a tool or component altogether.

The effect of Hardened Armor is the increase to Physical and Spell Resistance, a damage shield, and a return of damage.
The effect of Dark Cloak is the avoidance of damage altogether and a cleanse of pre-existing effects.
The effect of Hardened Ward is the absorption of damage altogether.
The effect of Blazing Shield is the absorption of damage altogether further increased by each nearby enemy, and an expulsion of damage taken when it expires.

All of these ^ provide survivability, but the "effects" and "animations" vary. Cloaking out still feels different than popping a bubble shield when you play a NightBlade because you are avoiding the damage altogether. You play differently when using Blazing Shield because you have to be nearby enemies to get the most effect from it. Hardened Armor can be used proactively to mitigate a big hit, and then it provides you with better damage reduction for a while after being hit, and to be most effective you need to stay near melee attackers. Hardened Ward can be most effective from any position, near or far, because of the way its "effects" work.

TL;DR Templar's need AoE CC.

uniq_faznrb18_ESO wrote: »

There is no way you can tank with a bow. That's not how this game is set up. Most bosses are immune to snares and knockdowns, which you need to 'Kite'. Two handers is better, with Brawler but even then against a dungeon boss? No way in hell can you do that. Not even wearing full armor with all health enchants. The passives are what makes or breaks the build, not just the actives. This is why you tank with a sword and shield. the passives gives you extra block, lessen block cost (which incidentally is independent with lesser cost for stamina abilities).

You can however use bow as a secondary weapon, a means to control the adds, to finish off and add, or even kite an add from your healer. While there is a range taunt in the game, taunting alone is not tanking. there many other 'components' that results in tanking. You need to face the boss away from your group to make it so that when he does a front conal attack, it doesnt hit your group. You need to block his powered attack, reduce his damage output, while grabbing other big adds that might pop up.

Like i said, there are many ways for survivability of the group and yourself. Each class has their niche in the game. While Nightblades might make good tanks as you said, We dont have an aoe cc too. Fear is not a cc and Lotus fan is a gap closer which has no place among the much needed skills with a tank build.

This is why Taunts are only available in the weapon skill line and the undaunted skill line. Its a common ground. its not stuck to a class which means yes, weapons do make roles. There are gray areas, like dpsing with a sword and shield or oftank secondary weapon with two handers but it reduces your role output.

I know 2 NightBlade tanks that both use a Bow to tank and they do it very successfully imo. A bow can still be used in melee range so its all up to personal preference. You don't have to kite just because you have a bow or any ranged weapon for that matter. It does however give you the potential to kite if necessary and that is where tradeoffs come into play with weapon selection. I can tell you from personal experience that Veteran Dungeon bosses can be tanked with a bow, a 2 hand, duel wield, one hand and shield, and r-staff (I personally use a one-hand and shield/dual-wield swords). I have not seen any tanked first hand with a d-staff, but I am positive that it can be done. Note that this is strictly from Veteran Dungeon experiences because we have not yet begun to do Trials, so the need for a one-hand and shield may prove to be required once we begin to do those. Also, the one-hand and shield passives are not that big of detriment if you don't take them. It all comes down to how you build your character, ability setup, etc...

I can assure you that I understand all of the fundamentals to tanking in general, even if aggro in this game is quite different than other games I have played. So far I have only felt the need to have at least 1 taunt on my bar, and the taunt used should depend on your weapon selection. I personally use Pierce Armor as my taunt, but for someone who has a build not based around one hand and shield the option would be to use Inner Fire. As I stated before we have not gotten into trials yet so the need for both taunts has not been necessary so far, but that situation may change dependent on our experiences once we begin trials.

NightBlade's most certainly do have means of AoE CC and an even more impressive arsenal of Single Target CC. Fear is most definitely considered CC as well and a gap closer is essential (imo) to have as a tool for a tank. Being able to close distance is crucial to getting to a hotzone before allies are destroyed, or just enough time to interrupt a caster/healer. Lets take a look at NightBlade AoE CC (which I already included in my original post concerning CC Analysis), but to reiterate I'll post it again. This time we'll look specifically at AoE CC:

Manifestation of Terror = AoE Fear
Soul Shred and its morphs = AoE Stun
Consuming Darkness and its morphs = AoE Snare
Lotus Fan = AoE Snare

Taunts aren't stuck in classes because they didn't want class to determine your role. They wanted your selection of abilities to be what makes your role. Sure, some roles may fair better with certain weapons, but I believe it ultimately comes down to ability selection. If someone can make a build work for the purposes of the content they are doing then so be it. As long as it isn't a detriment to your allies then I say play however you want.

Yes you can tank with a bow but as a secondary bar. Bow has good cc options, good control on single target and yes, there is might be no need for kiting but bows has no tanking passives, no... Direct damage mitigation abilities. Magnum shot works on bosses as it pushes you back as well but it means you are losing your positioning as a tank.

You are working with an excellent crew because right now, pugging a group wth the Tank using a bow as a tanking weapon? Really? You lose your excellent blocking passives, your blocking Mobility, abilities that help you and your group better in terms of you doing a proper job at tanking.

My friend, I think its clear you have your own set views on tanking and I wish you well but we are definitely not on topic in which your main gripe was that templars dont have an aoe cc. You went from thinking homogenization is good, making abilities different from each other in terms of just visual effects and animations to tanking is viable with bows and resto staff.

There are not much tanking passives out of the weapon skills that are readily available to all classes. Shadow abilities give out shadow barrier but its not much help. Right now, dks have the best tanking passives that is really all part of their repertoire.

Sidenote, fear is a good aoe cc but its not useful for group dungeons where runners would need to be locked down rather than allowing them to aggro more mobs. It is however a beast in pvp and is one of the most important ability with nb pvp.

Haven't played in a while and I'm curious if Templar's have received any changes that help them to be good tanks. Stuff like AoE CC, is Focused Charge fixed?, etc...