Stacking Magicka is OPAF

Sokre93 · July 2015

PivotalDan wrote: »

Grimnaur wrote: »

What does OPAF mean?

Orthotic and Prosthetic Activities Foundation?
http://www.opafonline.org/

Not sure if you were being sarcastic here, but in case not, I read it as

Over powered as 'bleep'

That's as correct as the forums will allow, though It's pronounced "Oh-Paf".

Merlin13KAGL · July 2015

Sokre93 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Huh. It's almost like they're mirror images of each other (well, except for the part where WD can usually be 33% - 50% higher than spell damage with relative ease.)

You seem to have missed the point entirely, it's not spell damage vs weapon damage, or stamina vs magicka. The post is about stacking towards a rescource, which already provides you with the ability to cast *more* spells, also granting too much (in my opinion) damage, when there is already a damage stat... And it doesn't appear to have a negative impact in terms of sustainability, survivability, or damage.

Think of it like this, and bear with me:

Each character has 9 points to spread between sustainability (the ability to do more attacks), survivability (the ability to take damage), and damage (the ability to deal damage).

A 0/3/6 will one shot a 6/1/1, and trade with a 0/6/3, A 7/1/1 can kill 6 0/0/9's before the 7th kills it, etc. What stacking any resource (but really more specifically magicka, because almost all heals and damage shields and damage spells scale off magicka) says, is that by putting 9 points into survivability, you also get to put 3 points into both the other two as well, becoming a 9/3/3. Sure, he can still die, and sure he doesn't deal optimal damage... But it's still more points.

That's obviously not an exact science, and there's more to it than that, but boiled down, I think it's pretty accurate.

@Sokre93, this is why they had more than three attributes in the standalone games.

ESO doesn't factor in Strength, speed, athletics, intelligence. They all got lumped into Magicka, Health, Stamina.

If you separate those out and make them for longevity/sustainability only then the damage values come strictly from gear, CP's, and passives.

Match two people with max level gear of the same variety and it absolutely becomes a war of attrition. Survivability directly counters damage, sustainability counters all.

In your depiction, once your sustain pool goes to zero, you die. Max damage won't trump endless shields and the sustain for a damage build will be lower automatically. Sustain build simply waits for damage build to run out and death is imminent, even with lower damage out.

Stacking magicka or stamina takes away from the opposing pool and definitely takes away from Health now. With the forumula (it's actually been reverse engineered for Spell Power), it's not 3:1 as your 9/3/3 example suggests, it's 10:1 on damage and certainly not 10:1 on survivability.

Magicka goes up, Stamina goes down - it's generally why stamina build focus CC to down a magicka build. Stamina builds get increased mobility by default (a magicka build won't roll dodge or sprint as long, and this can definitely translate to survivability for the stamina build.)

Everything is tied together, though internally. There is a counter for every build out there, but not in any single build.

Incidentally, the build shown in the video, while viable in PvE in a group scenario would likely be getting one-shot a lot with 15k health. It would be even less functional in PvP with reflectability of most attacks, including the Ult. Two of those bounce back, or one with a crit, and you've just effectively killed yourself. Those DPS numbers rely on Overload, which is not long term sustainable. I equally suspect there is more than a couple PvP buffs involved.

I don't necessarily agree with the way it ties together now (the way melee weapons increase spellpower, for instance, can be called nothing less than 'magical'), but at least you somewhat know what you're getting this way, and it's not 100% based on gear or lack thereof.

kaithuzar · July 2015

remilafo wrote: »

I can answer the OP's question..

The formula at the moment is [ 1 spell damage = 10.64 magicka ] ... spell damage wins.

Ofcourse we are about to get a major patch soon, so all this might change.

A v14 magicka set bonus is 900 magicka = 85 spell damage
A v14 Spell damage bonus is 177 spell dmg = 1883.28 magicka

to get a sense of the total power input into your spells you can convert all your spell damage or magicka to just a numerica value..

EXAMPLE: 2.7K spell damage and 27K magicka
2.7k sd --> 28728 + 27000 magicka = 55728 spell power.

The catch to Magicka stacking is that you MUST break about 38K magicka before your magicka start to get a lead over Spell damage.

For the record 49K magicka is possible i've done it on my chracter. Doing this takes a massive commitment and it work's because magicka multipliers, multiply each other they do not sum.

Currently there is only ONE way to boost spell damage and thats "major sorcery" buff i think, the one that increases your spell damage by 20%, entropy does this along with other skills.

However there are multiple ways to increase your magicka.

High elf +10%
Inner light +8%
Necropotence +12%
Bound aegis +8%
Undaunted mettle +6%

And when these are all stacked together they work like this 1.1 x 1.08 x 1.12 x 1.08 x 1.06 = 1.52 = 52% more magicka.

Futhuremore to make this happen you need to shove ALL your attribute points into Magicka.

When i tried this yes i did have 49K magicka and hit like a monster with unlimited fuel for my spells but I also only had 11K health (buffed).. and was a glorified one trick pony..

As a sorc your action bar will be

pet
inner light
bound aegis
power surge or entropy
Attack spell

WIth this combonation you will most likely use dual dagger for extra spell damage on both your bars. And only have two attack spell in total, which will be crystal blast and Lightning. Plus ultimate ofcourse, Power overload with 29k light attacks was AMAzing though.

I personally went back to the spell damage route because i don't like the one trick pony route.

EDIT* oh the stamina formula works exactly the same way, except it's WAY easier to get weapon damage than it is Spell damage.

You had one typo

EXAMPLE: 2.7K spell damage and 27K magicka
2.7k sd --> 28728 + 27000 magicka = 55728 spell power.

55728 Should actually be magic power instead of spell power, if you want to find spell power you have to divide that number by 10.64 as you stated; but order of operations may play into effect as well.

The number I came up with was 5,237 spell power but I think that's incorrect as well.
I took 27000 (magic) / 10.64 (magic) = 2,537 spell power
then
2,537 (spell power) + 2,700 (spell power) = 5,237 (spell power)
BUT....
This is incorrect data.

The problem is that if you have 2.7k spell damage, the amount of spell power that magic gives you has already been factored in. So you don't ADD spell damage on your character sheet + your magic.

So to calculate, you have to count by spell damage equation you provided above & then SUBTRACT your current spell damage (2.7k) from the number you got by adding up the spell damage from the gear you are using & any other spell damage buffs you have (sorc abilities et al..)

Sokre93 · July 2015

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

this is why they had more than three attributes in the standalone games...Stacking magicka or stamina takes away from the opposing pool and definitely takes away from Health now. With the forumula (it's actually been reverse engineered for Spell Power), it's not 3:1 as your 9/3/3 example suggests, it's 10:1 on damage and certainly not 10:1 on survivability.

Well of course, I didn't mean to say that mathematically my ratio example was proportionate to ESO currently, merely something simple with which to exemplify my point.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Magicka goes up, Stamina goes down - it's generally why stamina build focus CC to down a magicka build. Stamina builds get increased mobility by default (a magicka build won't roll dodge or sprint as long, and this can definitely translate to survivability for the stamina build.)

I really did'nt actually think of stamina builds like that, that's a REALLY good point. Stamina survivability does stem from block and roll... both of which are getting heavily nerfed though because some people enjoy breaking the game.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Everything is tied together, though internally. There is a counter for every build out there, but not in any single build.

As with all things which stem from "Rock, paper, scissors" haha.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

...with 15k health. It would be even less functional in PvP with reflectability of most attacks, including the Ult. Two of those bounce back, or one with a crit, and you've just effectively killed yourself. Those DPS numbers rely on Overload, which is not long term sustainable. I equally suspect there is more than a couple PvP buffs involved.

Yeah of course, there are a number of PvP buffs going on here, and that certainly adds to it, but the fact still remains: Magicka and stamina boost damage by what I believe to be too much (and I hope I've made that point), and Magicka also boosts most of the strength of shields... so 15k HP isn't relevant if you tack on more than twice than in *renewable* shields.

kaithuzar wrote: »

...the amount of spell power that magic gives you has already been factored in. So you don't ADD spell damage on your character sheet + your magic.

I don't believe that is accurate. With 40k magicka, he has only 1.2k Spell damage reading on the stat. The only place the damage from magicka is factored in, is on the ability tooltip itself. You would divide the magicka by 10.65, then add it to whatever the spell damage reads, and that is your effective spell damage which actually effects what the tooltip reads. So (27,000 / 10.65) + 2,700
2535 + 2700 = 5235
Which is an insane amount to recieve from the stat WHICH ALSO LETS YOU CAST MORE SPELLS. That is the major issue. A simple proposed fix would be to decrease the factor by 10, so instead of 10.65 (or 10.5 as earlier stated in the post, but we will use 10.65) it becomes 106.5.
(27,000 / 106.5) + 2700 = 2953. That is a much more reasonable fix. And again, ZoS has stated that they want to reduce damage - at least for pvp fights, which according to them don't last long enough - and what better way to do that than this?

If this happens, people will have to choose between magicka/stamina, and their respective damage stats. Those who choose damage will have less of a pool to work with - ie burst damage. Those who choose a large pool will deal less damage - ie sustainable damage. Those who choose to divide between both, will get a little of both - ie rounded character.

Side Note: you can tell I'm on my PC by how much better this is formatted.

Merlin13KAGL · July 2015

Sokre93 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

...with 15k health. It would be even less functional in PvP with reflectability of most attacks, including the Ult. Two of those bounce back, or one with a crit, and you've just effectively killed yourself. Those DPS numbers rely on Overload, which is not long term sustainable. I equally suspect there is more than a couple PvP buffs involved.

Yeah of course, there are a number of PvP buffs going on here, and that certainly adds to it, but the fact still remains: Magicka and stamina boost damage by what I believe to be too much (and I hope I've made that point), and Magicka also boosts most of the strength of shields... so 15k HP isn't relevant if you tack on more than twice than in *renewable* shields.

If you never ever make a timing mistake or get stunned, CC'd, knocked back, or silenced, you're right.

Mess it up one time, and down you go.

There's a reason they're called glass cannons. Like I say, one reflected crit overload light and you've just voided your own shield in one hit. Enemy will happily oblige taking care of the rest.

mfrd36nrb18_ESO · July 2015

BuggeX wrote: »

And Weapon DMG? i know NBs with 5,4k Weap dmg. (proced revanger)
Dont tell me Magicka Stack is op

Please, show a pic of that, 4k with ravager set proc is too damn high, how the hell you can get that amount you stated there? Thanks

Akinos · July 2015

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Sokre93 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

...with 15k health. It would be even less functional in PvP with reflectability of most attacks, including the Ult. Two of those bounce back, or one with a crit, and you've just effectively killed yourself. Those DPS numbers rely on Overload, which is not long term sustainable. I equally suspect there is more than a couple PvP buffs involved.

Yeah of course, there are a number of PvP buffs going on here, and that certainly adds to it, but the fact still remains: Magicka and stamina boost damage by what I believe to be too much (and I hope I've made that point), and Magicka also boosts most of the strength of shields... so 15k HP isn't relevant if you tack on more than twice than in *renewable* shields.

If you never ever make a timing mistake or get stunned, CC'd, knocked back, or silenced, you're right.

Mess it up one time, and down you go.

There's a reason they're called glass cannons. Like I say, one reflected crit overload light and you've just voided your own shield in one hit. Enemy will happily oblige taking care of the rest.

Glass cannon my foot! More like armor piercing bulletproof glass cannon with the ability to go from 0 to Mach 5 in an instant