Stacking Magicka is OPAF

Sokre93

I'm curious as to the formula by which damage is calculated. I have a sorcerer friend with around 46k magicka, and maybe 1200 spell damage, yet he hits insanely hard and pulls amazing sustained/burst dps, and to top it off - his damage shields (combined) equal ore than my entire health pool (as a Nord DK).

He says the formula for damage and the shields he uses value magicka more than spell damage, which makes me wonder why magicka gets to double dip like that (adding to both the amount of spells one can cast cast, as well as the damage the spells do). I also wonder if stamina works the same way, being valued more than weapon power.

If that's the case, why even bother having spell/weapon damage as a separate stat? Increasing magicka and stamina don't increase the damage stat, just the damage on the tooltip. Wouldn't it make more sense to just have magicka and stamina translate into some percentage of the spell/weapon damage stat, and then have the damage stat equate into actual damage instead of whatever equation is being used now?

leepalmer95

it's a lot easier to stack weapon damage than it is to stack spell damage.

It's also a lot easier to stack magicka than it is to stack spell damage, as spells scale off both magicka + spell power it makes sense to stack magicka being that it's the main resource.

Samadhi

Sokre93 wrote: »

I'm curious as to the formula by which damage is calculated. I have a sorcerer friend with around 46k magicka, and maybe 1200 spell damage, yet he hits insanely hard and pulls amazing sustained/burst dps, and to top it off - his damage shields (combined) equal ore than my entire health pool (as a Nord DK).

He says the formula for damage and the shields he uses value magicka more than spell damage, which makes me wonder why magicka gets to double dip like that (adding to both the amount of spells one can cast cast, as well as the damage the spells do). I also wonder if stamina works the same way, being valued more than weapon power.

If that's the case, why even bother having spell/weapon damage as a separate stat? Increasing magicka and stamina don't increase the damage stat, just the damage on the tooltip. Wouldn't it make more sense to just have magicka and stamina translate into some percentage of the spell/weapon damage stat, and then have the damage stat equate into actual damage instead of whatever equation is being used now?

Damage shields are not consistent here.

Some base off of HP, some base off of Magicka, Some base off Magicka and Spell Damage, Think Two-Handed scales off of both Stamina and Weapon Damage, but may be just Stamina.

Not sure why they were not made standardized when all other buffs were.

For Sorcerer's Hardened Ward, think the case may be that it only increases based off of Magicka.
Healing Ward in Restoration Staff might be both Magicka and Spell Damage.
My memory is a little spotty at the moment. Went over all of these at one point.

Nestor

Samadhi wrote: »

For Sorcerer's Hardened Ward, think the case may be that it only increases based off of Magicka.

Correct

Jakhajay

I'd like to know how your friend has 46k magicka. Best I can do on my v14 is about 25k (with food, enchants, various gear sets)

Bfish22090

You can get 40k as a high elf sorc with a necropotence build and food but 46 haven't heard yet

PBpsy

Sokre93 wrote: »

I'm curious as to the formula by which damage is calculated. I have a sorcerer friend with around 46k magicka, and maybe 1200 spell damage, yet he hits insanely hard and pulls amazing sustained/burst dps, and to top it off - his damage shields (combined) equal ore than my entire health pool (as a Nord DK).

He says the formula for damage and the shields he uses value magicka more than spell damage, which makes me wonder why magicka gets to double dip like that (adding to both the amount of spells one can cast cast, as well as the damage the spells do). I also wonder if stamina works the same way, being valued more than weapon power.

If that's the case, why even bother having spell/weapon damage as a separate stat? Increasing magicka and stamina don't increase the damage stat, just the damage on the tooltip. Wouldn't it make more sense to just have magicka and stamina translate into some percentage of the spell/weapon damage stat, and then have the damage stat equate into actual damage instead of whatever equation is being used now?

Stamina also does the same more stam = more damage. It's only that weapon damage is more easy to stack than stam. Magicka is a lot more easy to stack than spell power though due to numerous percent based stat increases especially on sorcs.

idk

1 spell damage is about 10.5 magika for most damage and healing abilities. Same with weapon damage and stam.

Many of the shields scale off magika only. The ward from Rstaff gets its biggest boost from missing hp of the target.

Draxys

you get 46k with race, green food, gear sets, toggle abilities that add magicka. I get 38k on my Sorc barely even trying with ok sets and one toggle.

Athas24

Sokre93 wrote: »

I'm curious as to the formula by which damage is calculated. I have a sorcerer friend with around 46k magicka, and maybe 1200 spell damage, yet he hits insanely hard and pulls amazing sustained/burst dps, and to top it off - his damage shields (combined) equal ore than my entire health pool (as a Nord DK).

He says the formula for damage and the shields he uses value magicka more than spell damage, which makes me wonder why magicka gets to double dip like that (adding to both the amount of spells one can cast cast, as well as the damage the spells do). I also wonder if stamina works the same way, being valued more than weapon power.

If that's the case, why even bother having spell/weapon damage as a separate stat? Increasing magicka and stamina don't increase the damage stat, just the damage on the tooltip. Wouldn't it make more sense to just have magicka and stamina translate into some percentage of the spell/weapon damage stat, and then have the damage stat equate into actual damage instead of whatever equation is being used now?

Stamina and Magicka pools work the same, respectively with weapon damage and spell damage, although weapon damage gets higher easier than spell damage.

bertenburnyb16_ESO

Jakhajay wrote: »

I'd like to know how your friend has 46k magicka. Best I can do on my v14 is about 25k (with food, enchants, various gear sets)

your doing something wrong, on my DK I've got 25K mag and close to 30k health so could easilly stack more if I wanted

Haquor

Jakhajay wrote: »

I'd like to know how your friend has 46k magicka. Best I can do on my v14 is about 25k (with food, enchants, various gear sets)

high elf sorc with blue stam/mag food, 290 cp and gold enchants seducer/magnus/healer and i have 40k exactly. more with green food.

i dont stack shields. hardened ward alone is 17.3k as a result of magicka pool scaling.

Jakhajay

V14 Khajiit Sorc and Templar

Sucks that race makes such a difference. And as for proper gear sets, I'll probably be waaaaay better of once get a transmog tool becomes available.

Lionxoft

Sokre93 wrote: »

I'm curious as to the formula by which damage is calculated. I have a sorcerer friend with around 46k magicka, and maybe 1200 spell damage, yet he hits insanely hard and pulls amazing sustained/burst dps, and to top it off - his damage shields (combined) equal ore than my entire health pool (as a Nord DK).

He says the formula for damage and the shields he uses value magicka more than spell damage, which makes me wonder why magicka gets to double dip like that (adding to both the amount of spells one can cast cast, as well as the damage the spells do). I also wonder if stamina works the same way, being valued more than weapon power.

If that's the case, why even bother having spell/weapon damage as a separate stat? Increasing magicka and stamina don't increase the damage stat, just the damage on the tooltip. Wouldn't it make more sense to just have magicka and stamina translate into some percentage of the spell/weapon damage stat, and then have the damage stat equate into actual damage instead of whatever equation is being used now?

If I remember correctly Sorc's hardened ward doesn't scale off of spell power at all. Only max magicka. Granted, the last time I checked that was months ago.

Sokre93

Am I the only one who thinks it's weird that by increasing your rescource, you can not only cast more spells but also bypass the damage stat, to straight increase abilities damage.

Setting that aside, am I the only one who thinks it's weird that a character who increases stats to specifically increase damage to incredibly high numbers (critting 19k with regular spells, not even an execution ability) doesn't have to sacrifice survivability because their shield spells are also increased?

Balance used to mean that by increasing one aspect, you decrease damage output, and vice versa (ie a tank doesn't get to out damage a dps, a dps doesn't get to out heal a healer, etc.).

Don't take this for complaining, his insanity makes my life easier - things and people pay more attention to attacking him, and I'm free to do as I please - But still... I feel bad for his opponents. It really jist seems off balanced to an excessive degree, especially since very few shields scale off health, and fewer still off of stamina.

Grimnaur

What does OPAF mean?

Orthotic and Prosthetic Activities Foundation?
http://www.opafonline.org/

Dracane

To reach such a Magicka pool, you have to sacrifise alot. You need at least 1 pet (or a Daedroth, Engine Guardian sphere or such things) , would need bound armor and mage light on your bar. So 3 toggles, so you only have 4 slots for actual abilities

Believe me, this build is not efficient. And the damage output is even a bit lower than with a max spell damage build. I think a max Magicka build is perfectly valid, as it requires you to sacrifise a lot.

BuggeX

And Weapon DMG? i know NBs with 5,4k Weap dmg. (proced revanger)
Dont tell me Magicka Stack is op

mistermutiny89

@Grimnaur looks like fun! Haha

Grimnaur

mistermutiny89 wrote: »

@Grimnaur looks like fun! Haha

With the exception of losing a body part, yeah.

Caesar Tantalia

As previously stated, going for max Magica also means giving in on other ends. Hardened ward needs to be casted so if you miss a second, having low base HP, you're dead (unless you have a great healer in your group).

Getting this amount of Magica means working with toggles and thus losing slots.

So overall, it's definitely logical and not OP.

As to the number itself - have to try it to believe it. I have 36k with still 10 points in HP and running without the daedric armor but plus food. I'll see how high those two can bring me. I was thinking to respec into full mag anyway.

trimsic_ESO

Sokre93 wrote: »

I'm curious as to the formula by which damage is calculated. I have a sorcerer friend with around 46k magicka, and maybe 1200 spell damage, yet he hits insanely hard and pulls amazing sustained/burst dps, and to top it off - his damage shields (combined) equal ore than my entire health pool (as a Nord DK).

He says the formula for damage and the shields he uses value magicka more than spell damage, which makes me wonder why magicka gets to double dip like that (adding to both the amount of spells one can cast cast, as well as the damage the spells do). I also wonder if stamina works the same way, being valued more than weapon power.

If that's the case, why even bother having spell/weapon damage as a separate stat? Increasing magicka and stamina don't increase the damage stat, just the damage on the tooltip. Wouldn't it make more sense to just have magicka and stamina translate into some percentage of the spell/weapon damage stat, and then have the damage stat equate into actual damage instead of whatever equation is being used now?

With such a magicka pool your friend does a lot of damage and can have extremely powerful damage shields thus granting both a great offensive and a great defensive capability. This is a stupid game mechanic.

Sokre93

Grimnaur wrote: »

What does OPAF mean?

Orthotic and Prosthetic Activities Foundation?
http://www.opafonline.org/

Hahahahahahaha

His build is entirely viable, and yes it is quite good actually, without sacrificing much. Like I said, his health shields provide over 20k, spell damage is around 1.2k, his health is a respectable 14k, his pet hits for over 5k, his crit is around 50%. Granted with these stats (which he goes for in PvP) are with a measly 40k magicka, plus spell pen from sorc and nirnhoned staff.

I've heard of plenty one hit wonder nightblades, but if they fail... They fail. They lack survivability. This particular sorcery build does not. It's certainly not a tank build, but with an effective 34k hit points...

I've heard tell that ZoS wants to reduce damage, something about PvP battles not last long enough... Anyways, would an effective method of this not be to reduce the 1:10.5 ratio to 1:105.0? With such a change:

-people who stack resource would still receive some damage benefit, but be more sustainable that provide high damage.
-people who stack damage would provide intense burst, but lack sustainability.
people who attempt both would have moderate sustainability, and moderate damage output, but neither would be as high as focusing.

Also... Does health translate into anything?

Sokre93

I don't know how to edit on my phone... But edit: 10.5:1, and 105.0:1

Paulington

I'm skeptical about 46,000 magicka. As a Sorc I usually run 38k magicka but can break 41k using Mage Mundus + Master Staff. To put another 5k on top of that when I'm already legendary geared with legendary enchants running the best Sorc DPS setup in the game.

The only way your friend is hitting 46k magicka is if he is running Necropotence with pets out and even then he may just break 46k but at what cost? If this really was that good at DPS more people would run it. The current meta game doesn't really reward stacking that much magicka at the expense of spell damage and other stats, especially with the amount of toggles he would require.

I'd like to see a screenshot of his character sheet, buffs included, and a Bloodspawn DPS meter. I doubt a build like that breaks 16k whereas a "normally" geared Sorc (Valkyn/MK/Torug's/Adroitness) can easily break 20-22k.

Merlin13KAGL

Sokre93 wrote: »

Am I the only one who thinks it's weird that by increasing your rescource, you can not only cast more spells but also bypass the damage stat, to straight increase abilities damage.

@Sokre93 , right? Like how you can stack more stamina to activate more stamina based skills and also increase the damage of stamina based attacks?

Huh. It's almost like they're mirror images of each other (well, except for the part where WD can usually be 33% - 50% higher than spell damage with relative ease.)

Sokre93

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Huh. It's almost like they're mirror images of each other (well, except for the part where WD can usually be 33% - 50% higher than spell damage with relative ease.)

You seem to have missed the point entirely, it's not spell damage vs weapon damage, or stamina vs magicka. The post is about stacking towards a rescource, which already provides you with the ability to cast *more* spells, also granting too much (in my opinion) damage, when there is already a damage stat... And it doesn't appear to have a negative impact in terms of sustainability, survivability, or damage.

Think of it like this, and bear with me:

Each character has 9 points to spread between sustainability (the ability to do more attacks), survivability (the ability to take damage), and damage (the ability to deal damage).

A 0/3/6 will one shot a 6/1/1, and trade with a 0/6/3, A 7/1/1 can kill 6 0/0/9's before the 7th kills it, etc. What stacking any resource (but really more specifically magicka, because almost all heals and damage shields and damage spells scale off magicka) says, is that by putting 9 points into survivability, you also get to put 3 points into both the other two as well, becoming a 9/3/3. Sure, he can still die, and sure he doesn't deal optimal damage... But it's still more points.

That's obviously not an exact science, and there's more to it than that, but boiled down, I think it's pretty accurate.

Overbowed

Paulington wrote: »

I'm skeptical about 46,000 magicka. As a Sorc I usually run 38k magicka but can break 41k using Mage Mundus + Master Staff. To put another 5k on top of that when I'm already legendary geared with legendary enchants running the best Sorc DPS setup in the game.

The only way your friend is hitting 46k magicka is if he is running Necropotence with pets out and even then he may just break 46k but at what cost? If this really was that good at DPS more people would run it. The current meta game doesn't really reward stacking that much magicka at the expense of spell damage and other stats, especially with the amount of toggles he would require.

I'd like to see a screenshot of his character sheet, buffs included, and a Bloodspawn DPS meter. I doubt a build like that breaks 16k whereas a "normally" geared Sorc (Valkyn/MK/Torug's/Adroitness) can easily break 20-22k.

I'll just leave this here. Necropotence can be quite potent in PvE. 46k magicka with apprentice IS possible. 50k is possible but becomes inpractical at that point.Your idea of the meta of the game is outdated. I won't post a bloodspawn post because I don't do it anymore, but know that necropotence is viable if not the best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PA3YXlvluy8

remilafo

I can answer the OP's question..

The formula at the moment is [ 1 spell damage = 10.64 magicka ] ... spell damage wins.

Ofcourse we are about to get a major patch soon, so all this might change.

A v14 magicka set bonus is 900 magicka = 85 spell damage
A v14 Spell damage bonus is 177 spell dmg = 1883.28 magicka

to get a sense of the total power input into your spells you can convert all your spell damage or magicka to just a numerica value..

EXAMPLE: 2.7K spell damage and 27K magicka
2.7k sd --> 28728 + 27000 magicka = 55728 spell power.

The catch to Magicka stacking is that you MUST break about 38K magicka before your magicka start to get a lead over Spell damage.

For the record 49K magicka is possible i've done it on my chracter. Doing this takes a massive commitment and it work's because magicka multipliers, multiply each other they do not sum.

Currently there is only ONE way to boost spell damage and thats "major sorcery" buff i think, the one that increases your spell damage by 20%, entropy does this along with other skills.

However there are multiple ways to increase your magicka.

High elf +10%
Inner light +8%
Necropotence +12%
Bound aegis +8%
Undaunted mettle +6%

And when these are all stacked together they work like this 1.1 x 1.08 x 1.12 x 1.08 x 1.06 = 1.52 = 52% more magicka.

Futhuremore to make this happen you need to shove ALL your attribute points into Magicka.

When i tried this yes i did have 49K magicka and hit like a monster with unlimited fuel for my spells but I also only had 11K health (buffed).. and was a glorified one trick pony..

As a sorc your action bar will be

pet
inner light
bound aegis
power surge or entropy
Attack spell

WIth this combonation you will most likely use dual dagger for extra spell damage on both your bars. And only have two attack spell in total, which will be crystal blast and Lightning. Plus ultimate ofcourse, Power overload with 29k light attacks was AMAzing though.

I personally went back to the spell damage route because i don't like the one trick pony route.

EDIT* oh the stamina formula works exactly the same way, except it's WAY easier to get weapon damage than it is Spell damage.

PivotalDan

Grimnaur wrote: »

What does OPAF mean?

Orthotic and Prosthetic Activities Foundation?
http://www.opafonline.org/

Not sure if you were being sarcastic here, but in case not, I read it as

Over powered as 'bleep'

Sokre93

remilafo wrote: »

When i tried this yes i did have 49K magicka and hit like a monster with unlimited fuel for my spells but I also only had 11K health (buffed).. and was a glorified one trick pony..

pet
inner light
bound aegis
power surge or entropy
Attack spell

WIth this combonation you will most likely use dual dagger for extra spell damage on both your bars. And only have two attack spell in total, which will be crystal blast and Lightning. Plus ultimate ofcourse, Power overload with 29k light attacks was AMAzing though.

I personally went back to the spell damage route because i don't like the one trick pony route.

EDIT* oh the stamina formula works exactly the same way, except it's WAY easier to get weapon damage than it is Spell damage.

The biggest issue with that is that, as I have stated, he isn't a one trick pony, or a one shot wonder. I watch him survive being banked by the heaviest hitting nightblade gankers, mirror matches last longer than I care about, taking on 4 or 5 opponents without breaking a sweat... All just because his other weapon is a restoration staff. He putts shields on rather quickly due to animation cancellation (something I take particular issue with), and switches back to deal exorbitant amounts of damage. Sure it might be 2 or 3 abilities that damage, but when each one crits half the time it hits for 12-19k... Who needs more? And when you have 14k buffed health and 20k in shields (maybe more, I don't have exact numbers), why bother with anything else?

Since stamina is also a resource, and has to be compared, stamina has very few heals and shields which scale off of magicka, so the damage might be easier to attain, but at a real loss to survivability... Somethimg that with this sorcer build... Isn't.