Why can't I play the way I want to?

GrimMauKin · January 2015

I've had issues before with the way Zenimax seems to try to force everyone into a toe-to-toe slugfest with powerful creatures (absurdly exaggerated range over which they can hit you, immunity to CC, resetting etc.) but I'm having serious issues with a Dread Daedroth.

I took Zenimax's statement about playing the way you wanted to at face value and built a medium armoured Nightblade that was meant to rely on tactics, agility and CC skills to be successful; it didn't quite work out that way.

I managed to clear a Dolmen is Cyrodill except for the final Dread Daedroth; agility and positioning is a non-starter as he can hit me from about 7 times further away than his arms will reach and of course the usual CC tactics I generally rely on (stuns, snares, knock-backs) don't work either. I can roll/dodge to avoid an attack, but because of the exaggerate range issues when I stand up again I'm still in range (it generally takes 2 or 3 rolls to actually get out of striking distance which soon depletes the stamina).

However, I thought that I found a *** in its armour when I realised that he couldn't see through stealth; I've got a reasonably high health regen value and I thought that I could use Shadow Cloak for a few seconds (my Magicka and Magicka regen. means I can re-activate Shadow Cloak whilst stealthed several times) I could take a breather and regain some health. Well it turns out that if the Daedroth can't see me for more that about 5 seconds it simply regains all its health and resets (even if I'm right next to it, so not outside of its reset range).

I tried rolling around the Dolmen to put its raised centre between myself and the Daedroth to avoid being hit and to regain some health; the same thing happens, if I'm out of sight for more than a few seconds (but just a few feet away) the Daedroth resets.

The only option I have is to stand out in the open, where I can always be hit, and slug it out without stealth or CC abilities (I can dodge for a bit but rapidly run out of stamina).

Far from being able to play the way I want to Zenimax seem to have put a huge amount of effort into forcing me to play like a tank, even when I'm not built, and can't win, like one.

AlexDougherty · January 2015

Um, have you tried heavy armour, because my Nightblade has defeated Dread Daedroths fiarly easily, I just keep circling him and whittling away at his health.

Refreshing path and siphon health help too.

nerevarine1138 · January 2015

I use the exact same build/playstyle as you with no issues. If you're soloing something like that you can't ignore block and dodge mechanics just because you have a cloaking ability.

GrimMauKin · January 2015

No, I haven't tried heavy armour as that wasn't the build I wanted; I have tried Swallow Soul and that does prolong things a little, but what ever approach I've tried I seem to be continually getting hit and I don't have the health or the armour to take that for long; if I successfully avoid getting hit it resets.

It's not really about whether a Nightblade can beat a particular MOB; a Nightblade can don heavy armour, grab a doublehanded sword and tank it out with the best of them, it's about why I should need to play that way to win.

nerevarine1138 · January 2015

GrimMauKin wrote: »

No, I haven't tried heavy armour as that wasn't the build I wanted; I have tried Swallow Soul and that does prolong things a little, but what ever approach I've tried I seem to be continually getting hit and I don't have the health or the armour to take that for long; if I successfully avoid getting hit it resets.

It's not really about whether a Nightblade can beat a particular MOB; a Nightblade can don heavy armour, grab a doublehanded sword and tank it out with the best of them, it's about why I should need to play that way to win.

1. You don't need to play that build to beat that enemy.
2. Playing the way you want doesn't mean every build will be equally effective in all situations.

GrimMauKin · January 2015

I don't ignore the block/dodge mechanics just because I have a cloaking ability but I don't have the stamina to block and dodge successfully for long enough to win; I'd like to be able to cloak too.

If I avoid getting hit for more than 5 seconds by dodging that's fine, if I avoid getting hit for 5 seconds by cloaking the MOB resets; since my attribute point as split between Magicka and Stamina, I'd like to be able to do both.

I'd be the first to admit though that I'm not the most skilful player so maybe I need to try a few other options.

AlexDougherty · January 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

GrimMauKin wrote: »

No, I haven't tried heavy armour as that wasn't the build I wanted; I have tried Swallow Soul and that does prolong things a little, but what ever approach I've tried I seem to be continually getting hit and I don't have the health or the armour to take that for long; if I successfully avoid getting hit it resets.

It's not really about whether a Nightblade can beat a particular MOB; a Nightblade can don heavy armour, grab a doublehanded sword and tank it out with the best of them, it's about why I should need to play that way to win.

1. You don't need to play that build to beat that enemy.
2. Playing the way you want doesn't mean every build will be equally effective in all situations.

No, you don't, I only suggested it because I had tried it, and it works for me.

I'm sure it can be done in medium armour, but you will need to kite and dodge a lot more (which I can do) and you need to select the right skills to support this.

The OP should perhaps try out the Nightblade guides on these forums (player guides and Combat & skill forum)

GrimMauKin · January 2015

Perhaps the correct answer to the "why can't I play the way I want to?" question is simply that I'm not actually that good

I've struggled with in a few areas and a bit of extra practice and trying out some new skills usually helps.

I still think that it's odd to make a MOB susceptible to cloaking but then to reset when it's used; why not just do the usual and allow it to see through stealth?

Padhraigh · January 2015

It can most definitely be done in medium armor, with that same strategy, but there are some things that you need:

1) A skill that lets you cause damage from range
2) A crap load of patience

Specifically for doing dark anchors, you could try and put that big center piece where the anchor "locks down" in between you and the daedroth. After that, it's just a matter of kiting from left to right and getting some damage in when that big baddie is in sight and then moving to the opposite side. So:

a) Move to right
b) Wait for boss to try circle to your side
c) Damage
d) Move to left
e) Wait for boss to try and circle to your side
f) Eepeat

It can be time consuming, but usually works.

(of course, timing is important due to the reset issue)

GrimMauKin · January 2015

That was my point really, when I put the centre of the Dolmen between myself and the Daedroth for more than about 5 seconds (or cloaked for a similar period of time) the Deadroth just reset; otherwise I think I might have managed it.

Cody · January 2015

DO NOT step into PvP when 1.6 goes live, you will DESPISE it.

riverdragon72 · January 2015

GrimMauKin wrote: »

I managed to clear a Dolmen is Cyrodill except for the final Dread Daedroth; agility and positioning is a non-starter as he can hit me from about 7 times further away than his arms will reach

That reminds me.........

newtinmpls · January 2015

You are asking the wrong question. You can (and obviously do) play any way that you want.

You just can't "win" any way that you want to.

UrQuan · January 2015

Here's the thing: you totally can play the way you want to, and you obviously are doing so. ZOS never said that you can play the way you want to and always be as effective in every situation as every other way of playing.

So here's part of where you're going wrong: you're trying to solo a dolmen and complaining that because you can't manage to do it with your build, obviously you aren't able to play the way you want. Dolmens were never meant to be content that can be completed solo. Some content in ESO was designed to be done solo, and some was designed to be done by groups of players.

The fact that you were able to clear everything before the final boss solo while playing how you want says that you're already more effective than ZOS expected you to be. The fact that some people have the skill and the build that allows them to entirely clear a dolmen solo (without being vastly over-leveled) says that they are significantly more effective than ZOS expected them to be.

Dave2836 · January 2015

UrQuan wrote: »

Here's the thing: you totally can play the way you want to, and you obviously are doing so. ZOS never said that you can play the way you want to and always be as effective in every situation as every other way of playing.

So here's part of where you're going wrong: you're trying to solo a dolmen and complaining that because you can't manage to do it with your build, obviously you aren't able to play the way you want. Dolmens were never meant to be content that can be completed solo. Some content in ESO was designed to be done solo, and some was designed to be done by groups of players.

The fact that you were able to clear everything before the final boss solo while playing how you want says that you're already more effective than ZOS expected you to be. The fact that some people have the skill and the build that allows them to entirely clear a dolmen solo (without being vastly over-leveled) says that they are significantly more effective than ZOS expected them to be.

Totally agree. This game wasn't meant to be completely solo content, even in the open world if taking on mobs of comparable level SHOULD provide a challenge for a solo player. My templar plays this game in the same spirit as Dark Souls, if I don't play tactfully I'm getting a free teleport to a wayshrine.

firstdecan · January 2015

GrimMauKin wrote: »

I've had issues before with the way Zenimax seems to try to force everyone into a toe-to-toe slugfest with powerful creatures (absurdly exaggerated range over which they can hit you, immunity to CC, resetting etc.) but I'm having serious issues with a Dread Daedroth.

I took Zenimax's statement about playing the way you wanted to at face value and built a medium armoured Nightblade that was meant to rely on tactics, agility and CC skills to be successful; it didn't quite work out that way.

I managed to clear a Dolmen is Cyrodill except for the final Dread Daedroth; agility and positioning is a non-starter as he can hit me from about 7 times further away than his arms will reach and of course the usual CC tactics I generally rely on (stuns, snares, knock-backs) don't work either. I can roll/dodge to avoid an attack, but because of the exaggerate range issues when I stand up again I'm still in range (it generally takes 2 or 3 rolls to actually get out of striking distance which soon depletes the stamina).

However, I thought that I found a *** in its armour when I realised that he couldn't see through stealth; I've got a reasonably high health regen value and I thought that I could use Shadow Cloak for a few seconds (my Magicka and Magicka regen. means I can re-activate Shadow Cloak whilst stealthed several times) I could take a breather and regain some health. Well it turns out that if the Daedroth can't see me for more that about 5 seconds it simply regains all its health and resets (even if I'm right next to it, so not outside of its reset range).

I tried rolling around the Dolmen to put its raised centre between myself and the Daedroth to avoid being hit and to regain some health; the same thing happens, if I'm out of sight for more than a few seconds (but just a few feet away) the Daedroth resets.

The only option I have is to stand out in the open, where I can always be hit, and slug it out without stealth or CC abilities (I can dodge for a bit but rapidly run out of stamina).

Far from being able to play the way I want to Zenimax seem to have put a huge amount of effort into forcing me to play like a tank, even when I'm not built, and can't win, like one.

This is probably one of the best posts I've seen on the "play the way you want to" mantra. I bolded the parts that, IMO, should be the focus of your comment.

All of the bigger fights do really feel like a slug fest. There isn't a way to regain stamina for tactical movement the same way there is for magicka, and in 1.6 it feels like there's even less stamina for tactical movement unless you wear medium armor. The big bosses are immune to CC and Stuns, so almost every big boss fight boils down to DPS and healing. The tank \ healer mechanic makes it easier to know where to focus the healing (the tank soaking up all the damage), but there doesn't seem to be opportunities to beat the big bosses outside of the tank \ healer \ dps trifecta. Even on the bosses you're meant to solo, some are immune to CC and stun so you have to have a DPS \ Heals rotation in your repertoire.

I know someone is about to post that heavy attacks now restore stamina, but it's a paltry amount compared to the 30% magicka restore you get from a resto heavy attack at range. The stam recovery is just not comparable with the magicka recovery.

GrimMauKin · February 2015

I take the point of everyone's posts; cheers.

Perhaps it was a bit of on frustrated reaction also I find the MOB continually resetting if I kept out of sight for a few seconds odd (I think it's a valid tactic on my part).

I do feel that TESO does favour the tank; in a magical world it should be possible to design the occasional boss that put tanks at a disadvantage and where more susceptible to other attacks rather than just use the 'more health, more DPS, immunity to CC approach'.

LtCrunch · February 2015

firstdecan wrote: »

GrimMauKin wrote: »

I've had issues before with the way Zenimax seems to try to force everyone into a toe-to-toe slugfest with powerful creatures (absurdly exaggerated range over which they can hit you, immunity to CC, resetting etc.) but I'm having serious issues with a Dread Daedroth.

I took Zenimax's statement about playing the way you wanted to at face value and built a medium armoured Nightblade that was meant to rely on tactics, agility and CC skills to be successful; it didn't quite work out that way.

I managed to clear a Dolmen is Cyrodill except for the final Dread Daedroth; agility and positioning is a non-starter as he can hit me from about 7 times further away than his arms will reach and of course the usual CC tactics I generally rely on (stuns, snares, knock-backs) don't work either. I can roll/dodge to avoid an attack, but because of the exaggerate range issues when I stand up again I'm still in range (it generally takes 2 or 3 rolls to actually get out of striking distance which soon depletes the stamina).

However, I thought that I found a *** in its armour when I realised that he couldn't see through stealth; I've got a reasonably high health regen value and I thought that I could use Shadow Cloak for a few seconds (my Magicka and Magicka regen. means I can re-activate Shadow Cloak whilst stealthed several times) I could take a breather and regain some health. Well it turns out that if the Daedroth can't see me for more that about 5 seconds it simply regains all its health and resets (even if I'm right next to it, so not outside of its reset range).

I tried rolling around the Dolmen to put its raised centre between myself and the Daedroth to avoid being hit and to regain some health; the same thing happens, if I'm out of sight for more than a few seconds (but just a few feet away) the Daedroth resets.

The only option I have is to stand out in the open, where I can always be hit, and slug it out without stealth or CC abilities (I can dodge for a bit but rapidly run out of stamina).

Far from being able to play the way I want to Zenimax seem to have put a huge amount of effort into forcing me to play like a tank, even when I'm not built, and can't win, like one.

This is probably one of the best posts I've seen on the "play the way you want to" mantra. I bolded the parts that, IMO, should be the focus of your comment.

All of the bigger fights do really feel like a slug fest. There isn't a way to regain stamina for tactical movement the same way there is for magicka, and in 1.6 it feels like there's even less stamina for tactical movement unless you wear medium armor. The big bosses are immune to CC and Stuns, so almost every big boss fight boils down to DPS and healing. The tank \ healer mechanic makes it easier to know where to focus the healing (the tank soaking up all the damage), but there doesn't seem to be opportunities to beat the big bosses outside of the tank \ healer \ dps trifecta. Even on the bosses you're meant to solo, some are immune to CC and stun so you have to have a DPS \ Heals rotation in your repertoire.

I know someone is about to post that heavy attacks now restore stamina, but it's a paltry amount compared to the 30% magicka restore you get from a resto heavy attack at range. The stam recovery is just not comparable with the magicka recovery.

It's not 30%. The base magicka restoration from a staff heavy attack is 10%, with the restoration staff passive it's an additional 30% of that 10%, which is 13%. The stamina restoration on heavy melee/bow varies based in weapon type. Some are comparable to a staff heavy attack, others are not.

Lylith · July 2015

it's still a nasty fight with a vampire templar, too.

as you mentioned, he can hit like a truck from very far away, even if you're not directly in front of him.

Leandor · July 2015

@GrimMauKin
It's funny, for me it is the same thing, the Dread Daedroth is also the absolutely only thing that makes a Cyrodiil dolmen even remotely interesting. His "special attack" (which is an invisible flame breath) does not consider LOS or range at all, thus making evasion quite difficult.

The easiest way to solo him is to use dodge rolls continuously and only use one attack between rolls. Easier with bow and partially charged heavy/poison arrow clipping, you can get off two. Melee means I surprise attack - dodge roll through him - turn around - surprise attack - roll through him, etc.

Takes a while longer but kills him off without ever hitting me.

BTW: stam nightblade full medium as well.

MangoSsk · July 2015

BNannerz · July 2015

ITT: I can't solo everything in this game as a mid-armor dps, so I'm going to complain until so make everything so easy I don't need any mechanics or teamwork to get what I want.

Either get better gear/skills or get some friends to help you. You can play this game any way you want, its just some people want their game to give them a challenge and require more than faceroll 2 minute fights. I for one am happy that there are challenges that everyone can't beat alone or if they can it will be very hard.

Athas24 · July 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

I use the exact same build/playstyle as you with no issues. If you're soloing something like that you can't ignore block and dodge mechanics just because you have a cloaking ability.

^100% this. Roll Dodge completely negates their attacks. If you want to be tactical this is your #1 move. As in real life, if you dodge the hit...it doesn't hurt you. If you block it, it hurts less than a full on hit but it still hurts. Time his hits, roll dodge, attack rinse repeat. You can even add stealth in there. Also be sure you have the right potions equipped and food eaten.

Merlin13KAGL · July 2015

Volcanic. Rune. -> overgrown scaly sack of potatoes.

On a side note, there should be an achievement for rez's, speficially those involving threads.

ahampelb14_ESO · July 2015

I agree with OP that mobs reset way too easily. Just running around behind a rock or something can ruin a good fight and force you to start over. There's exploiting and there's realism. This game tries too hard to stop what they consider exploiting.

Egg_Death · July 2015

The only point I agree with is the reset mechanics. If you run away from the Dolmen then sure, you should reset the fight, but if you use a character ability as it is intended? Just give the boss some AoE attacks that he will then spam away, or some type of health regen that he will use when not being engaged.

Granted, you really shouldn't be able to solo Dolmens on your own. They should add pins where you need another player to get out of, so if you try to solo it he pins you and then sends you to the nearest wayshrine via curb-stomp. Or keep sending higher-level adds so that a lone wolf will meet his match before victory.

Kloud · July 2015

You can lol no one's stopping you