Imperial City: What about the XP gap?

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

I'm excited to have seen the official Imperial City announcement. In it, there is mention of quite a few things coming in that should be fun. But, even though PVE areas were specifically called out as having increased XP gain, what about the XP gain from killing enemy players in PVP (Cyrodiil, Imperial City, etc.)? The imperial city sounds great, but I sincerely hope the only good way to level in there isn't killing mobs and avoiding pvp

Also will the 100% gain to experience in public dungeons include the imperial city sewers for mob and player kills since it is designated as a "pvp public dungeon"?

The divide in XP earnings for vet ranks and champ ranks is so big right now, that I feel we need no less than triple the XP per kill of an enemy player to even come close to bringing it up to par. This is a big deal as doing PVP or trials at this time is essentially none. With so many PVE elements included in the PVP Imperial City zone, I'm concerned having not heard anything about player kill XP being raised in tandem. The last thing anyone here wants to see is for the City to open up and everyone runs off to grind sewers mobs because killing other players in there is an obstacle, not a goal

.

Finally, it was talked about that v15/16 gear will require materials from the City to craft, and come off of NPC enemies. Are these obtainable from rewards for the worthy mail bags from PVP'ing, after deconstructing items within them?

Any clarification or information as to the plans on this, @ZOS_BrianWheeler ?

Zheg · July 2015

Unfortunately, if they had plans on raising pvp xp they would have discussed them in the info drop, or would have addressed the multiple threads and posts on it. Like you, I hoped the xp news they shared on ESO live was only part of the story, but it looks like it's too late now. We'll have to wait a few more months and try again. I'll settle for reduced lag over increased xp though!

Morvul · July 2015

yeah, it's kind of strange...
not so long ago, ZoS increased PvP XP gains, so PvP would be more on par with PvE XP gains.
Those PvP XP increases actually did not put PvP on equal footing with PvE, but obviously it did help.

Now they are increasing PvE XP gains, with no mention of PvP - essentially undoing the previous balance attempt...

Francescolg · July 2015

The problem is not beeing perceived as a problem by the devs and that's the problem

Quantine · July 2015

Thank you for bringing this up. I was shocked when I saw 100% XP increase for public dungeons (that would include CWC, right?) and NO increase in PvP XP gains. Now, what they should have done was increase PvP XP gains which are ridiculously low and lower public dungeons XP gains... really angry about that one.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

please respond to this!

Ahzek · July 2015

While CWC is no public dungeon and thus shouldnt be affected by the XP increase there, I agree that we need a serious buff to PvP XP in order to allow for similar champion progression (wich i still loathe btw.).

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

Quantine wrote: »

Thank you for bringing this up. I was shocked when I saw 100% XP increase for public dungeons (that would include CWC, right?) and NO increase in PvP XP gains. Now, what they should have done was increase PvP XP gains which are ridiculously low and lower public dungeons XP gains... really angry about that one.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

please respond to this!

Morvul wrote: »

yeah, it's kind of strange...
not so long ago, ZoS increased PvP XP gains, so PvP would be more on par with PvE XP gains.
Those PvP XP increases actually did not put PvP on equal footing with PvE, but obviously it did help.

Now they are increasing PvE XP gains, with no mention of PvP - essentially undoing the previous balance attempt...

This is a very big concern to a lot of people I have spoken with in-game, as well. The previous XP increase for PVP did little to even it out and there is an incredibly large disparity still between PVP-earned XP per hour and PVE, by a factor of 5-10 times the amount in favor of PVE, per hour. There now has been the slate of XP increases for PVE announced, which would worsen this an immense amount further, with no mention of increasing PVP-earned XP, let alone towards parity. This really needs to be addressed, and it needs to be before the PTS goes up or very shortly thereafter.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler, a response to this would be very much appreciated... I've seen you tackle a lot of other issues that were brought up yesterday before and after, but this one wasn't, so I wanted to raise it once again.

cazlonb16_ESO · July 2015

Francescolg wrote: »

The problem is not beeing perceived as a problem by the devs and that's the problem

Yea. We told them before the last increase that 50% aren't anywhere enough. Personally I voted for a 200% increase, that should have put a decent player in a decent group roughly on par with the quest xp easily attainable for pretty much anyone but really poor players. That really shouldn't be too much to ask.

ZOS disagreed obviously. Since then, silence on that front...PvE rates are higher now and will increase even more in 1.7.

AhPook_Is_Here · July 2015

Well the public dungeon in IC is going to be a pvp dungeon too, so it should be a good place to farm exp I'd think.

I don't know if more exp is what we should be asking for. Exp is essentially proportional to AP. If a solo player earns 50k AP a night, and lets say that translates into 5 champion points, after a 200% boost in PVP experience, what does a solid group make in the same night? 300k AP, 30 champion points with a 200% increase? Do you really want to have that kind of disproportional acceleration in the champion system?

I get that we want to kill PVE as a progression mechanic in this game so that anyone who plays that side game can never compete with those of us that PVP but do you think this will also partition PVP players into larger groups in hopes of being able to even nip at the heels of the best?

MrGhosty · July 2015

It seems like providing greater increases to XP earned for player kills isn't getting a huge boost as such a mechanic could be easily (and would in a heartbeat) be exploited. It sucks mind you, as I would love to be able to level my characters in PvP as opposed to repeating content for the umpteenth time in PvE but when you get actual people involved there is far too great a chance that it will be exploited and abused. Essentially, people are the reason we can't have nice things.

Morvul · July 2015

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

If a solo player earns 50k AP a night, and lets say that translates into 5 champion points, after a 200% boost in PVP experience, what does a solid group make in the same night? 300k AP, 30 champion points with a 200% increase?

uh, I frequently make 50k - 80k AP an evening, and it's just 2-3 CP,

addendum: this is with enlightenment for the first one, mind you

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

MrGhosty wrote: »

It seems like providing greater increases to XP earned for player kills isn't getting a huge boost as such a mechanic could be easily (and would in a heartbeat) be exploited. It sucks mind you, as I would love to be able to level my characters in PvP as opposed to repeating content for the umpteenth time in PvE but when you get actual people involved there is far too great a chance that it will be exploited and abused. Essentially, people are the reason we can't have nice things.

Exploiting grind spots with a bot while you sleep would be a lot simpler if you were going to go down the "but it could be used to cheat" route

.

After earning ~98,400 alliance points in a group over a couple of hours last night I had gained a "whopping" ~300,000 XP, or about 3/4ths (75%) of just one champion rank. Contrast that to PVE grinding where I can go 24 hours a day, 7 days a week as I please, have no risk of performing more poorly or losing a fight or the mobs deciding not to come out and play (PVP isn't always a roaring warzone every minute of every day) and get 2.5-3 champion ranks per hour (~5-6+ in the same couple of hours) with ease while solo.

And most nights aren't always going to be that good, let alone if you decide to login at noon on a weekday. You could die. You could just not find people to fight. You could be severely outnumbered and find your group able to do little that afternoon. In PVE, the mobs are always sitting there, waiting to be farmed like XP pinata's, every hour of every day of the week. They don't pose a risk of dying and not getting the XP. They don't decide to quit because they're losing. Mobs sit there, die, respawn, and die again, ad nauseum as long as you want them to, whenever you want them to, all while providing 8-10 times the rate of champion point gain.

When killing packs of pve mobs in a game centered around not only its PVE storyline but its robust warfare system in the Alliance War of cyrodiil is a full order of magnitude better for you to progress... it's hardly difficult to see the problem. I imagine you could go to almost any gamer you could find, and even if they never had played an MMORPG they'd understand the concept of "Boring, repetitive task most people don't enjoy is the best way to win in a game that sold itself on competitive fighting and story/lore" inside of a minute

.

Your argument of "don't do X because someone might cheat it!" could be extended to anything and everything in the game. "Don't have harvesting because someone could just set a macro to mine it every time it spawns!" "Don't have dungeons because someone might find a glitch and abuse it!". The solution to cheating is to make it as well as you can, and then ban anyone who violates the Terms of Service.

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

Francescolg wrote: »

The problem is not beeing perceived as a problem by the devs and that's the problem

Yea. We told them before the last increase that 50% aren't anywhere enough. Personally I voted for a 200% increase, that should have put a decent player in a decent group roughly on par with the quest xp easily attainable for pretty much anyone but really poor players. That really shouldn't be too much to ask.

ZOS disagreed obviously. Since then, silence on that front...PvE rates are higher now and will increase even more in 1.7.

Yep... and to top it all off, even questing is only a fraction of what grinding provides. Yet PVP is a fraction of what questing gives, itself. It's not just unacceptably different and slow in comparison, but completely backwards to the design of Elder Scrolls Online and fun in general, that solo mob grinding or storyline quests provide multiple to several times the XP gain that Trials/raid content and extremely high amounts of winning in PVP (aka the top one percent of success you can have) does, all of which are far, far more difficult, and engaging/fun acitvities.

I was hoping to hear some comment or even an "it's under development/discussion" after two full business days' worth of time passed from the big PVP announcement yesterday morning to the end of the evening, tonight. @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom replied to quite a number of items of concern both big and extremely small in the announcement threads, and I still hope to see it addressed.

EDIT: My main concern is not only the growing champion rank gap between primarily PVE and primarily PVP players, but this:

Rewards that are unmatched in power await those who are brave enough to enter the Imperial City and claim them. Fight Molag Bal's personal guard, the elite Xivkyn, and other invaders from Coldharbour to win Tel Var Stones, the currency used to trade for mighty Veteran Rank 16 armor sets. But be on your guard—enemy Alliance members lurk around every corner throughout the Imperial Districts and Sewers. Should you fall to an enemy player, they can claim your hard-earned Tel Var Stones in their own quest for glory.

Plays out like this:

"Rewards that are unmatched in power await those who are brave enough to enter the Imperial City and claim them. Fight Molag Bal's personal guard, the elite Xivkyn, and other invaders from Coldharbour to win Tel Var Stones, the currency used to trade for mighty Veteran Rank 16 armor sets. But be on your guard—enemy Alliance members lurk around every corner to attempt to avoid you throughout the Imperial Districts and Sewers. Do as they do and evade them at all costs as you defeat the Daedric Lord's minions. Should you unwittingly fight with and fall to an enemy player, they can claim your hard-earned Tel Var Stones in their own quest for Champion Rank XP when fighting the daedra."

It's purposefully hyperbolic to the point of humor, to illustrate what could result if this isn't remedied before it the Imperial City goes live to what otherwise appears to be an absolutely fantastic expansion of the game.

Forztr · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

show previous quotes

MrGhosty wrote: »

It seems like providing greater increases to XP earned for player kills isn't getting a huge boost as such a mechanic could be easily (and would in a heartbeat) be exploited. It sucks mind you, as I would love to be able to level my characters in PvP as opposed to repeating content for the umpteenth time in PvE but when you get actual people involved there is far too great a chance that it will be exploited and abused. Essentially, people are the reason we can't have nice things.

Exploiting grind spots with a bot while you sleep would be a lot simpler if you were going to go down the "but it could be used to cheat" route .

After earning ~98,400 alliance points in a group over a couple of hours last night I had gained a "whopping" ~300,000 XP, or about 3/4ths (75%) of just one champion rank. Contrast that to PVE grinding where I can go 24 hours a day, 7 days a week as I please, have no risk of performing more poorly or losing a fight or the mobs deciding not to come out and play (PVP isn't always a roaring warzone every minute of every day) and get 2.5-3 champion ranks per hour (~5-6+ in the same couple of hours) with ease while solo.

And most nights aren't always going to be that good, let alone if you decide to login at noon on a weekday. You could die. You could just not find people to fight. You could be severely outnumbered and find your group able to do little that afternoon. In PVE, the mobs are always sitting there, waiting to be farmed like XP pinata's, every hour of every day of the week. They don't pose a risk of dying and not getting the XP. They don't decide to quit because they're losing. Mobs sit there, die, respawn, and die again, ad nauseum as long as you want them to, whenever you want them to, all while providing 8-10 times the rate of champion point gain.

When killing packs of pve mobs in a game centered around not only its PVE storyline but its robust warfare system in the Alliance War of cyrodiil is a full order of magnitude better for you to progress... it's hardly difficult to see the problem. I imagine you could go to almost any gamer you could find, and even if they never had played an MMORPG they'd understand the concept of "Boring, repetitive task most people don't enjoy is the best way to win in a game that sold itself on competitive fighting and story/lore" inside of a minute .

Your argument of "don't do X because someone might cheat it!" could be extended to anything and everything in the game. "Don't have harvesting because someone could just set a macro to mine it every time it spawns!" "Don't have dungeons because someone might find a glitch and abuse it!". The solution to cheating is to make it as well as you can, and then ban anyone who violates the Terms of Service.

I agree all pve mobs should have the xp reduced to 1 for a kill and quest hand ins should be increased by a factor of 5-10 including the daily PVP ones

Also why are you so concerned about XP? Your table (posted many times) clearly shows that the CP system isn't a problem due to diminishing returns so does it matter if PVP doesn't reward XP as well as grinding mobs. TESOU is a game and games are all about having fun right? And PVP is way more fun than running in circles killing mobs for hours so what's the problem? Let grinders waste their time grinding and you should continue to have fun playing the actual game.

/end sarcasm (just in case you thought I was serious)

Earendal · July 2015

Just for a little bit of context, the people in Havoc who have the most champion points are the ones who got in on the viable grind spots before they were nerfed, people who have leveled multiple alts, and people who primarily PvE. Most of us are sitting right around, or just below, 300 CP. To give you an idea of how much PvP'ing we do, I would say that, without too much doubt, we are the highest PvP ranked guild in NA. There is, maybe, one other guild that comes close to having the PvP ranks that we do. This isn't meant to talk down to anyone or make any comparisons to performance, just to shed light on the PvP to PvE XP gap.

To give you an idea of the discrepancy, there are people in my PvE guild who have over a 1k CP, that earned them legitimately, albeit while mindlessly grinding.

manny254 · July 2015

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

I don't know if more exp is what we should be asking for. Exp is essentially proportional to AP. If a solo player earns 50k AP a night, and lets say that translates into 5 champion points, after a 200% boost in PVP experience, what does a solid group make in the same night? 300k AP, 30 champion points with a 200% increase? Do you really want to have that kind of disproportional acceleration in the champion system?

AP gain and XP gain do not have a linear correlation. Gaining 10 XP for 1 AP would not mean that gaining 10 AP would equal 100 XP. Gaining AP does not always yield consistent amounts of XP and vice versa.

AhPook_Is_Here · July 2015

manny254 wrote: »

show previous quotes

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

I don't know if more exp is what we should be asking for. Exp is essentially proportional to AP. If a solo player earns 50k AP a night, and lets say that translates into 5 champion points, after a 200% boost in PVP experience, what does a solid group make in the same night? 300k AP, 30 champion points with a 200% increase? Do you really want to have that kind of disproportional acceleration in the champion system?

AP gain and XP gain do not have a linear correlation. Gaining 10 XP for 1 AP would not mean that gaining 10 AP would equal 100 XP. Gaining AP does not always yield consistent amounts of XP and vice versa.

That is true because of defense ticks and exp bonuses for quest turn-ins. Diminishing returns on AP for multiple kills also improves the ratio. Anyway, in terms of player kills there is a direct correlation.

What I think would be the best idea is have 2 identical champion systems, one that works in PVE based on PVE experience and when in cyrodiil and the portions of IC that are PVP eligible to have a 2nd champion system who's points are either earned based on AP or alliance rank (depending if you want to scale it from 0 or grandfather in earlier work). The PVP one could cap at say 1800 PTS or something so you could never fill it out 100% and be forced to specialize a bit.

Remember, in my first post the "~approximations" are considering a 200% exp gain for PVP player kills. I'm saying maybe we need separate systems. If PVErs want to get good at PVP they will need to spend time in PVP with separate champ systems.

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

Earendal wrote: »

Just for a little bit of context, the people in Havoc who have the most champion points are the ones who got in on the viable grind spots before they were nerfed, people who have leveled multiple alts, and people who primarily PvE. Most of us are sitting right around, or just below, 300 CP. To give you an idea of how much PvP'ing we do, I would say that, without too much doubt, we are the highest PvP ranked guild in NA. There is, maybe, one other guild that comes close to having the PvP ranks that we do. This isn't meant to talk down to anyone or make any comparisons to performance, just to shed light on the PvP to PvE XP gap.

To give you an idea of the discrepancy, there are people in my PvE guild who have over a 1k CP, that earned them legitimately, albeit while mindlessly grinding.

That basically matches up with what I have seen on the DC side of the fence, for what it's worth. People who primarily PVP or do other activities tend to be between 180-300 CP, while those who slam into mob grinding and looping runs of veteran Dragonstar Arena usually have hit the 600-700+ mark and occasionally more. As I can see (and appreciate) the purpose and tone of your post, I won't drag random names out to compare, but like I said at the start, it's very much in line with what I know of and have seen on the Realm of the Smurfs (aka Daggerfall).

Morvul · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

show previous quotes

Earendal wrote: »

Just for a little bit of context, the people in Havoc who have the most champion points are the ones who got in on the viable grind spots before they were nerfed, people who have leveled multiple alts, and people who primarily PvE. Most of us are sitting right around, or just below, 300 CP. To give you an idea of how much PvP'ing we do, I would say that, without too much doubt, we are the highest PvP ranked guild in NA. There is, maybe, one other guild that comes close to having the PvP ranks that we do. This isn't meant to talk down to anyone or make any comparisons to performance, just to shed light on the PvP to PvE XP gap.

To give you an idea of the discrepancy, there are people in my PvE guild who have over a 1k CP, that earned them legitimately, albeit while mindlessly grinding.

That basically matches up with what I have seen on the DC side of the fence, for what it's worth. People who primarily PVP or do other activities tend to be between 180-300 CP, while those who slam into mob grinding and looping runs of veteran Dragonstar Arena usually have hit the 600-700+ mark and occasionally more. As I can see (and appreciate) the purpose and tone of your post, I won't drag random names out to compare, but like I said at the start, it's very much in line with what I know of and have seen on the Realm of the Smurfs (aka Daggerfall).

I'll add another voice to this observations:

My primary guild is a PvP guild, and we spend most evenings in Cyrodiil playing in ~12 man groups, reasonably successfully (50-80k AP on most evenings).
Most of our members now are somewhere in the 200-300 CP bracket.
Two of our members decided just two weeks ago that they are falling behind on CP (they had slightly over 200) and basically stopped interacting with the guild. Instead. they now spend all their playtime in some cave grinding NPCs. After only two weeks of doing so, their CP count has overtaken that of the rest of the guild and hit 400.

AhPook_Is_Here · July 2015

Morvul wrote: »

show previous quotes

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Earendal wrote: »

Just for a little bit of context, the people in Havoc who have the most champion points are the ones who got in on the viable grind spots before they were nerfed, people who have leveled multiple alts, and people who primarily PvE. Most of us are sitting right around, or just below, 300 CP. To give you an idea of how much PvP'ing we do, I would say that, without too much doubt, we are the highest PvP ranked guild in NA. There is, maybe, one other guild that comes close to having the PvP ranks that we do. This isn't meant to talk down to anyone or make any comparisons to performance, just to shed light on the PvP to PvE XP gap.

To give you an idea of the discrepancy, there are people in my PvE guild who have over a 1k CP, that earned them legitimately, albeit while mindlessly grinding.

That basically matches up with what I have seen on the DC side of the fence, for what it's worth. People who primarily PVP or do other activities tend to be between 180-300 CP, while those who slam into mob grinding and looping runs of veteran Dragonstar Arena usually have hit the 600-700+ mark and occasionally more. As I can see (and appreciate) the purpose and tone of your post, I won't drag random names out to compare, but like I said at the start, it's very much in line with what I know of and have seen on the Realm of the Smurfs (aka Daggerfall).

I'll add another voice to this observations:

My primary guild is a PvP guild, and we spend most evenings in Cyrodiil playing in ~12 man groups, reasonably successfully (50-80k AP on most evenings).
Most of our members now are somewhere in the 200-300 CP bracket.
Two of our members decided just two weeks ago that they are falling behind on CP (they had slightly over 200) and basically stopped interacting with the guild. Instead. they now spend all their playtime in some cave grinding NPCs. After only two weeks of doing so, their CP count has overtaken that of the rest of the guild and hit 400.

This is why there should be 2 champion systems, one for pve and one for PVP.

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

show previous quotes

Morvul wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Earendal wrote: »

Just for a little bit of context, the people in Havoc who have the most champion points are the ones who got in on the viable grind spots before they were nerfed, people who have leveled multiple alts, and people who primarily PvE. Most of us are sitting right around, or just below, 300 CP. To give you an idea of how much PvP'ing we do, I would say that, without too much doubt, we are the highest PvP ranked guild in NA. There is, maybe, one other guild that comes close to having the PvP ranks that we do. This isn't meant to talk down to anyone or make any comparisons to performance, just to shed light on the PvP to PvE XP gap.

To give you an idea of the discrepancy, there are people in my PvE guild who have over a 1k CP, that earned them legitimately, albeit while mindlessly grinding.

That basically matches up with what I have seen on the DC side of the fence, for what it's worth. People who primarily PVP or do other activities tend to be between 180-300 CP, while those who slam into mob grinding and looping runs of veteran Dragonstar Arena usually have hit the 600-700+ mark and occasionally more. As I can see (and appreciate) the purpose and tone of your post, I won't drag random names out to compare, but like I said at the start, it's very much in line with what I know of and have seen on the Realm of the Smurfs (aka Daggerfall).

I'll add another voice to this observations:

My primary guild is a PvP guild, and we spend most evenings in Cyrodiil playing in ~12 man groups, reasonably successfully (50-80k AP on most evenings).
Most of our members now are somewhere in the 200-300 CP bracket.
Two of our members decided just two weeks ago that they are falling behind on CP (they had slightly over 200) and basically stopped interacting with the guild. Instead. they now spend all their playtime in some cave grinding NPCs. After only two weeks of doing so, their CP count has overtaken that of the rest of the guild and hit 400.

This is why there should be 2 champion systems, one for pve and one for PVP.

Or, as suggested, simply scale champion XP/veteran XP earnings with your Alliance Point earnings, and assume a reasonable baseline of being in the top 10% in a campaign to balance it with PVE mob grinding. Above that, you're coming out ahead (and should, given your statistically far above-average performance)... below that, you'd be behind but still earning a good bit. Right now, EXP earned from PVP is just so low it's insignificant

.

Valnas · July 2015

ZoS, this issue is drowning and strangling every reasonable player out of your game. Please reward pvp and endgame content on par with caves

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

Valnas wrote: »

ZoS, this issue is drowning and strangling every reasonable player out of your game. Please reward pvp and endgame content on par with caves

Quoted for emphasis.

Kerioko · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

And most nights aren't always going to be that good, let alone if you decide to login at noon on a weekday. You could die. You could just not find people to fight. You could be severely outnumbered and find your group able to do little that afternoon. In PVE, the mobs are always sitting there, waiting to be farmed like XP pinata's, every hour of every day of the week. They don't pose a risk of dying and not getting the XP. They don't decide to quit because they're losing. Mobs sit there, die, respawn, and die again, ad nauseum as long as you want them to, whenever you want them to, all while providing 8-10 times the rate of champion point gain.

+1 to Awesome for use of XP pinata's....They need to raise the XP for PVP and also really ramp up the difficulty of PVE!

AhPook_Is_Here · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

show previous quotes

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Morvul wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Earendal wrote: »

Just for a little bit of context, the people in Havoc who have the most champion points are the ones who got in on the viable grind spots before they were nerfed, people who have leveled multiple alts, and people who primarily PvE. Most of us are sitting right around, or just below, 300 CP. To give you an idea of how much PvP'ing we do, I would say that, without too much doubt, we are the highest PvP ranked guild in NA. There is, maybe, one other guild that comes close to having the PvP ranks that we do. This isn't meant to talk down to anyone or make any comparisons to performance, just to shed light on the PvP to PvE XP gap.

To give you an idea of the discrepancy, there are people in my PvE guild who have over a 1k CP, that earned them legitimately, albeit while mindlessly grinding.

That basically matches up with what I have seen on the DC side of the fence, for what it's worth. People who primarily PVP or do other activities tend to be between 180-300 CP, while those who slam into mob grinding and looping runs of veteran Dragonstar Arena usually have hit the 600-700+ mark and occasionally more. As I can see (and appreciate) the purpose and tone of your post, I won't drag random names out to compare, but like I said at the start, it's very much in line with what I know of and have seen on the Realm of the Smurfs (aka Daggerfall).

I'll add another voice to this observations:

My primary guild is a PvP guild, and we spend most evenings in Cyrodiil playing in ~12 man groups, reasonably successfully (50-80k AP on most evenings).
Most of our members now are somewhere in the 200-300 CP bracket.
Two of our members decided just two weeks ago that they are falling behind on CP (they had slightly over 200) and basically stopped interacting with the guild. Instead. they now spend all their playtime in some cave grinding NPCs. After only two weeks of doing so, their CP count has overtaken that of the rest of the guild and hit 400.

This is why there should be 2 champion systems, one for pve and one for PVP.

Or, as suggested, simply scale champion XP/veteran XP earnings with your Alliance Point earnings, and assume a reasonable baseline of being in the top 10% in a campaign to balance it with PVE mob grinding. Above that, you're coming out ahead (and should, given your statistically far above-average performance)... below that, you'd be behind but still earning a good bit. Right now, EXP earned from PVP is just so low it's insignificant .

The only problem I have with that is how far ahead a group like mine will pull ahead of others. I suppose I shouldn't protest since it will give me a huge statistical advantage over players closer to the mean. Separating the systems would be the most fair.

I know you get this, our group earns around 600% of what an average group earns in the same time in terms of AP from player kills. If they scale an average groups performance to match a cave grinders champ pt generation that will put us at 6 times that grinders point generation making what we do the very best way to get champ points in the game, by a long shot.

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

show previous quotes

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Morvul wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Earendal wrote: »

Just for a little bit of context, the people in Havoc who have the most champion points are the ones who got in on the viable grind spots before they were nerfed, people who have leveled multiple alts, and people who primarily PvE. Most of us are sitting right around, or just below, 300 CP. To give you an idea of how much PvP'ing we do, I would say that, without too much doubt, we are the highest PvP ranked guild in NA. There is, maybe, one other guild that comes close to having the PvP ranks that we do. This isn't meant to talk down to anyone or make any comparisons to performance, just to shed light on the PvP to PvE XP gap.

To give you an idea of the discrepancy, there are people in my PvE guild who have over a 1k CP, that earned them legitimately, albeit while mindlessly grinding.

That basically matches up with what I have seen on the DC side of the fence, for what it's worth. People who primarily PVP or do other activities tend to be between 180-300 CP, while those who slam into mob grinding and looping runs of veteran Dragonstar Arena usually have hit the 600-700+ mark and occasionally more. As I can see (and appreciate) the purpose and tone of your post, I won't drag random names out to compare, but like I said at the start, it's very much in line with what I know of and have seen on the Realm of the Smurfs (aka Daggerfall).

I'll add another voice to this observations:

My primary guild is a PvP guild, and we spend most evenings in Cyrodiil playing in ~12 man groups, reasonably successfully (50-80k AP on most evenings).
Most of our members now are somewhere in the 200-300 CP bracket.
Two of our members decided just two weeks ago that they are falling behind on CP (they had slightly over 200) and basically stopped interacting with the guild. Instead. they now spend all their playtime in some cave grinding NPCs. After only two weeks of doing so, their CP count has overtaken that of the rest of the guild and hit 400.

This is why there should be 2 champion systems, one for pve and one for PVP.

Or, as suggested, simply scale champion XP/veteran XP earnings with your Alliance Point earnings, and assume a reasonable baseline of being in the top 10% in a campaign to balance it with PVE mob grinding. Above that, you're coming out ahead (and should, given your statistically far above-average performance)... below that, you'd be behind but still earning a good bit. Right now, EXP earned from PVP is just so low it's insignificant .

The only problem I have with that is how far ahead a group like mine will pull ahead of others. I suppose I shouldn't protest since it will give me a huge statistical advantage over players closer to the mean. Separating the systems would be the most fair.

I know you get this, our group earns around 600% of what an average group earns in the same time in terms of AP from player kills. If they scale an average groups performance to match a cave grinders champ pt generation that will put us at 6 times that grinders point generation making what we do the very best way to get champ points in the game, by a long shot.

I indeed do get it, but that's why I was proposing not balancing it around the "average" group, but the top 5-10%. Basing it around the strict average (which is skewed heavily as the points earned by leaderboard spot evidence) would be completely unreasonable, as you said given the vast majority earns only a fraction of the AP

, though. Top-notch groups, well... like you said

. I feel that PVP'ing at high AP gains (top 2-4%) should be a moderately-high amount (~50%) better XP than spending the same amount of time in a cave grinding mobs. The top 1% or 0.5% can end up doubling that when they're killing it.

The difference would be that the best players wouldn't be penalized for not having grinded their hearts out by still having a lot less gain, regardless of how low the champion system's power gains went. By the time grinding would reach 3000 CP hypothetically, kickass pvp'ers would only sit, likely, around 800 if nothing's changed. Leveling speed should be much more equalized. It's tough to balance anything when players running approximately the same amount of time can have multiple times the difference in champion points accrued... because then you're not only balancing whether the system gives too much as a whole but the XP sources to boot across game types. That introduces a huge variable to the calculation needlessly.

When a group like yours, @AhPook_Is_Here, pulls above what the majority of that top tier does? Call me nuts, but it's damn well deserved. If the power gap from the champion system itself proves too large eventually, then it can be globally scaled downwards. But top PVP'ers wouldn't be left behind either way.

Emma_Overload · July 2015

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Well the public dungeon in IC is going to be a pvp dungeon too, so it should be a good place to farm exp I'd think.

I don't know if more exp is what we should be asking for. Exp is essentially proportional to AP. If a solo player earns 50k AP a night, and lets say that translates into 5 champion points, after a 200% boost in PVP experience, what does a solid group make in the same night? 300k AP, 30 champion points with a 200% increase? Do you really want to have that kind of disproportional acceleration in the champion system?

I get that we want to kill PVE as a progression mechanic in this game so that anyone who plays that side game can never compete with those of us that PVP but do you think this will also partition PVP players into larger groups in hopes of being able to even nip at the heels of the best?

Yes, and I'm sure ZoS has done the math, too, and that's why they won't increase PvP XP to a reasonable amount, even though everyone is asking for it. If they did, you would have a small number of elite PvPers reach 3600 CP in a few weeks, and the whining that would ensue would dwarf everything we've heard so far.

However, there IS a solution, and it's a very simple one: grant XP for both killing AND DYING in PvP. If you got, say, half the XP for a noble death in battle that the player who killed you got, there wouldn't be nearly so large an XP (or CP!) gap between the haves and have-nots. If ZoS was really smart, they would throw in some AP for dying, too, as this would also have the beneficial side effect of incentivizing bad PvPers and PvEers to spend more time in Cyrodiil.

k2blader · July 2015

As someone who is (still) leveling primarily through PvP (because I kinda hate PvE), it's a fact PvP XP needs to be buffed.

Since IC will be in a PvP zone, I also really hope there will be some way for people who don't want to PvE to gain the same rewards via actual PvP. If it's the only option, I'd "AP grind" for an equal reward. But there should be some separate PvP reward system for the "best mats and gear" and I don't mean random reward emails where the "rewards" aren't worth anything...

[edit]
Just read on the General forum about how stones will "work".. lol..

ToRelax · July 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

show previous quotes

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Well the public dungeon in IC is going to be a pvp dungeon too, so it should be a good place to farm exp I'd think.

I don't know if more exp is what we should be asking for. Exp is essentially proportional to AP. If a solo player earns 50k AP a night, and lets say that translates into 5 champion points, after a 200% boost in PVP experience, what does a solid group make in the same night? 300k AP, 30 champion points with a 200% increase? Do you really want to have that kind of disproportional acceleration in the champion system?

I get that we want to kill PVE as a progression mechanic in this game so that anyone who plays that side game can never compete with those of us that PVP but do you think this will also partition PVP players into larger groups in hopes of being able to even nip at the heels of the best?

Yes, and I'm sure ZoS has done the math, too, and that's why they won't increase PvP XP to a reasonable amount, even though everyone is asking for it. If they did, you would have a small number of elite PvPers reach 3600 CP in a few weeks, and the whining that would ensue would dwarf everything we've heard so far.

However, there IS a solution, and it's a very simple one: grant XP for both killing AND DYING in PvP. If you got, say, half the XP for a noble death in battle that the player who killed you got, there wouldn't be nearly so large an XP (or CP!) gap between the haves and have-nots. If ZoS was really smart, they would throw in some AP for dying, too, as this would also have the beneficial side effect of incentivizing bad PvPers and PvEers to spend more time in Cyrodiil.

You want an incentive for bad players to die instead of get better?

Docmandu · July 2015

On one hand I want XP in PVP to increase 10 fold, because VR1->VR14-16 su.cks BIG BIG time... but on the other hand, BWB PvP is so much more fun, that increases in PVP XP would mean I'd level out of BWB rather quickly.. already have 8 slots used up on my account as-is (with only 1 VR14 and 1 at VR3.. rest sub 50 for BWB which get played 95% of the time).

Although if they fix the VR PVP lag and the Call of Duty 1-shot no skills PVP in VR, then an increase in XP gain would actually make VR PVP doable.. but as it stands now, don't fancy the PvE grind involved to get to VR10, nay VR12, nay VR14, nay VR16... and at this rate VR18 / VR20 in a few months... no thanks.. this PvE treadmill isn't for me.

ZOS_BrianWheeler · July 2015

We are discussing various XP gains via PVP but not ready to post about them yet.