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Please Explain The Desire For Level Cap
Gidorick
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This is a general question regarding level caps. I don't understand the desire for wanting progression to stop.
I understand that level caps help with power creep and create manageable progression for new players. I get THAT perspective.
I don't understand why a player who is at level cap wouldn't want the level cap increased. Doesn't a raised level cap just offer more of the game that you've played up to this point?
Any clarification would be appreciated.
I understand that level caps help with power creep and create manageable progression for new players. I get THAT perspective.
I don't understand why a player who is at level cap wouldn't want the level cap increased. Doesn't a raised level cap just offer more of the game that you've played up to this point?
Any clarification would be appreciated.
What ESO really needs is an Auction Horse.
That's right... Horse.
Click HERE to discuss.
Want more crazy ideas? Check out my Concept Repository!
That's right... Horse.
Click HERE to discuss.
Want more crazy ideas? Check out my Concept Repository!
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Kendaric✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Personally, I prefer a horizontal progression system to a cap increase. I simply dislike cap increases because they feel artificial.3 -
Aett_Thorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭It really depends.
Increasing the level cap with no simultaneous release of content for everyone just means that you waste people's time with meaningless grind, since they've likely completed all of the content already. It also means that people need to make/buy/find new high-level gear to replace their current stuff.
If there is new content, then problem number 1 is resolved for the most part, but problem number 2 remains.
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Gidorick✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Aett_Thorn wrote: »It really depends.
Increasing the level cap with no simultaneous release of content for everyone just means that you waste people's time with meaningless grind, since they've likely completed all of the content already. It also means that people need to make/buy/find new high-level gear to replace their current stuff.
If there is new content, then problem number 1 is resolved for the most part, but problem number 2 remains.
Ok. So let's say level stays and there's no more content. What are people doing in game? Dailies? Trials? What are players working towards?What ESO really needs is an Auction Horse.
That's right... Horse.
Click HERE to discuss.
Want more crazy ideas? Check out my Concept Repository!1 -
Gidorick✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Personally, I prefer a horizontal progression system to a cap increase. I simply dislike cap increases because they feel artificial.
Can you be more specific? What would that look like in ESO? More skill lines perhaps. With more skillpoints being awarded. Would that create a horizontal progression?What ESO really needs is an Auction Horse.
That's right... Horse.
Click HERE to discuss.
Want more crazy ideas? Check out my Concept Repository!0 -
Aett_Thorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Aett_Thorn wrote: »It really depends.
Increasing the level cap with no simultaneous release of content for everyone just means that you waste people's time with meaningless grind, since they've likely completed all of the content already. It also means that people need to make/buy/find new high-level gear to replace their current stuff.
If there is new content, then problem number 1 is resolved for the most part, but problem number 2 remains.
Ok. So let's say level stays and there's no more content. What are people doing in game? Dailies? Trials? What are players working towards?
This is why people have been clamoring for more content for the past year. There's very little to work towards right now. But just increasing the cap two levels means that people will grind the levels out in a day or two, and then have the exact same gear goals that they had before, just two levels higher.
And unless the Devs change things with existing sets, it might also mean that sets that stop dropping at level VR12 just get further behind, and build diversity gets narrower and narrower.2 -
MissBizz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Personally, I prefer a horizontal progression system to a cap increase. I simply dislike cap increases because they feel artificial.
Can you be more specific? What would that look like in ESO? More skill lines perhaps. With more skillpoints being awarded. Would that create a horizontal progression?
I'm also interested to see an answer. I keep seeing "horizontal progression" thrown around, but I can't imagine it for the life of me.
I actually enjoy the level raising. I enjoy having that next thing to strive for. Whether it be better gear, a new level, or whatever. I realize that 2 VR levels realistically does not add much to my stats, nor will the gear (from seeing current increases from vr to vr), but something dings psychologically when I light up and DING there's a new level. Champion points don't fulfill this the same way, as I don't feel I need to work hard/long enough to earn them (I actually enjoy how long each vet rank takes - the longer/hard something is the more I feel accomplished when I get it). They (CP) are quick to get and come quite often - so it just doesn't give me the same feeling. Now, I could say opening up the passives of the CP system give me that "ding" feeling, but I just enjoy levels I guess
Lone Wolf HelpFor the solo players who know, sometimes you just need a hand.PC | NA | AD-DC-EP | Discord5 -
Akavir_Sentinel✭✭✭✭✭
✭"Horizontal Progression" is just an empty buzzword that lazy players like to throw around because they don't like having to take the time to level up and earn things like everyone else. I've yet to see anyone describe what horizontal progression is and what it would entail.5 -
VictoriaRachel✭✭✭Ok. So let's say level stays and there's no more content. What are people doing in game? Dailies? Trials? What are players working towards?
I think you do need things to aim for and things to work towards. I simply think a new level cap without new is not something to aim for. It feels insulting to me as a player that they would do that. It feels cheap and desperate and like they just do not care.
The reason I feel like that is without new content to accompany a level raise as a player you either level up to the new cap by doing things you were enjoying anyway or things you really don't. If I am enjoying content I can make my own aims and goals, achievements to work towards, gear for a new build, an improvement on a timed run, making my own goals nothing that a raised level cap will add to. If I have already run out of things to do that I enjoy then what? I have to grind through content I am bored of in order to stay competitive if and when I do feel like getting involved in the game?
An increased level cap, unless accompanied by content (and even then is unnecessary), is not progression it is an insult.0 -
Sithisvoid✭✭✭✭✭I think what everyone protesting fails to realize is the level cap is coming with Imperial City. So yeah more content.3 -
Aett_Thorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sithisvoid wrote: »I think what everyone protesting fails to realize is the level cap is coming with Imperial City. So yeah more content.
Will Imperial City contain both PvE and PvP content? If not, then it won't be enough.3 -
Akavir_Sentinel✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sithisvoid wrote: »I think what everyone protesting fails to realize is the level cap is coming with Imperial City. So yeah more content.
^ This. Stop with the whining about content. The increase to VR16 will come with new content, new armor sets, and no telling what else that we don't know about yet. We will find out more on the 13th.0 -
Sithisvoid✭✭✭✭✭Aett_Thorn wrote: »Sithisvoid wrote: »I think what everyone protesting fails to realize is the level cap is coming with Imperial City. So yeah more content.
Will Imperial City contain both PvE and PvP content? If not, then it won't be enough.
I'm sure it will have both. Cyrodil has delves and pve.0 -
Azalin76✭✭✭I will be happy as long as it is solo pve content, I think they messed up with crag being group content because most people only grind there and never actually do any of the quests so it's kinda pointless. I just hope imperial city doesn't end up that way.2 -
Bromburak✭✭✭✭✭Hard to sell a game with open level like system, player habits and adequate rewards are the core success of MMOs.Otherwise gamers would ask them self every single day, "why the heck i play that game if nothing lasts."
There is simply no market for this.Edited by Bromburak on July 7, 2015 5:25PM0 -
Kendaric✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Personally, I prefer a horizontal progression system to a cap increase. I simply dislike cap increases because they feel artificial.
Can you be more specific? What would that look like in ESO? More skill lines perhaps. With more skillpoints being awarded. Would that create a horizontal progression?
Sure, by horizontal progression I´m speaking of stuff like the champion system (or rather the idea behind it). Basically the ability to further specialize your character without the need for an increased cap.
More skill lines would work as well.
Ok. So let's say level stays and there's no more content. What are people doing in game? Dailies? Trials? What are players working towards?
Well, we do need new content obviously. I just happen to dislike the cap inrease that comes with it. For me getting champion points, new quests and new areas is rewarding enough.
Edited by Kendaric on July 7, 2015 5:44PM0 -
Cherryblossom✭✭✭✭✭
✭I still don't understand Horizonal Progression, anything that makes you more powerful is verticle progression surely
CS is Verticle, it in no way helps you to specialise, surely specialisation would come from more morphs to existing skills create more fun and interesting ways to use them, even synergies from using skills together.Edited by Cherryblossom on July 7, 2015 5:40PM0 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I have never seen anyone applaud a level cap increase itself.
People want more stuff to do, new rewards, new options, new possibilities, new looks. But none of that is necessarily tied to a level increase.
So, no, a level cap increase does not offer "more of the game". More of the game offers more of the game.Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.4 -
Gidorick✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Personally, I prefer a horizontal progression system to a cap increase. I simply dislike cap increases because they feel artificial.
Can you be more specific? What would that look like in ESO? More skill lines perhaps. With more skillpoints being awarded. Would that create a horizontal progression?
Sure, by horizontal progression I´m speaking of stuff like the champion system (or rather the idea behind it). Basically the ability to further specialize your character without the need for an increased cap.
By gaining what? Some have said the champion system is really vertical progression because you become more powerful. If horizontal progression doesn't increase stats or make you character stronger (like 1-50 progression), what would you specialize with horizontal progression?
What stats would a horizontal progression in ESO increase if not things like damage, Armor, and healing? How exactly would we specialize or character further?
Is it just because it's not DIRECTLY associated with gaining levels? Then we're back asking what's wrong with a raised level cap? Especially if horizontal progression would/does increase those same stats anyway? Is it the more grandular progression that's desired? Instead of one level raising all these stats at once, you get to raise a little at a time in exactly what you want to specialize in?Edited by Gidorick on July 7, 2015 5:47PMWhat ESO really needs is an Auction Horse.
That's right... Horse.
Click HERE to discuss.
Want more crazy ideas? Check out my Concept Repository!0 -
JamilaRaj✭✭✭✭✭
✭Personally, I prefer a horizontal progression system to a cap increase. I simply dislike cap increases because they feel artificial.
Can you be more specific? What would that look like in ESO? More skill lines perhaps. With more skillpoints being awarded. Would that create a horizontal progression?
Though adding skill lines just for the sake of progression would quickly backfire, last but not least because unlike with active skills, one can utilize any number of passives.
Or simply exploring/completing what there is. Ironically, VR/CP systems undermine this, because there is little point in exploring some zone that is couple of VR beneath; there is neither challenge, nor reward, and as a bonus you would get punished, because such exploring woulld likely not be particularly good CP grind either.Akavir_Sentinel wrote: »Sithisvoid wrote: »I think what everyone protesting fails to realize is the level cap is coming with Imperial City. So yeah more content.
^ This. Stop with the whining about content. The increase to VR16 will come with new content, new armor sets, and no telling what else that we don't know about yet. We will find out more on the 13th.
It will also be the only conent available, as all current will be rendered obsolete, unless they scale it up to VR16 too.Edited by JamilaRaj on July 7, 2015 6:14PM2 -
Gidorick✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VictoriaRachel wrote: »Ok. So let's say level stays and there's no more content. What are people doing in game? Dailies? Trials? What are players working towards?
I think you do need things to aim for and things to work towards. I simply think a new level cap without new is not something to aim for. It feels insulting to me as a player that they would do that. It feels cheap and desperate and like they just do not care.
The reason I feel like that is without new content to accompany a level raise as a player you either level up to the new cap by doing things you were enjoying anyway or things you really don't. If I am enjoying content I can make my own aims and goals, achievements to work towards, gear for a new build, an improvement on a timed run, making my own goals nothing that a raised level cap will add to. If I have already run out of things to do that I enjoy then what? I have to grind through content I am bored of in order to stay competitive if and when I do feel like getting involved in the game?
An increased level cap, unless accompanied by content (and even then is unnecessary), is not progression it is an insult.
Hypothetically, what if the level cap raised and you just continued what you were doing before the cap was raised. Wouldn't you get those levels anyway? Or are you feeling like you're being interrupted because what you're doing doesn't give you XP. If that's the case, why are you concerned with level cap? If your "own aims and goals" don't include activities that yield XP, you don't need the levels. Or is it that you don't want to HAVE to get to the next level to play new content?What ESO really needs is an Auction Horse.
That's right... Horse.
Click HERE to discuss.
Want more crazy ideas? Check out my Concept Repository!0 -
Gandrhulf_Harbard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Personally, I prefer a horizontal progression system to a cap increase. I simply dislike cap increases because they feel artificial.
Can you be more specific? What would that look like in ESO? More skill lines perhaps. With more skillpoints being awarded. Would that create a horizontal progression?
I'm also interested to see an answer. I keep seeing "horizontal progression" thrown around, but I can't imagine it for the life of me.
Ok, so lets say they release a new zone.
Accessible to all factions.
Within that zone are numerous "generic" quests of the kind seen in every zone in the game so far.
But there's also some quest-chains that unlock access to a new skill path, a new weapon, etc.
Progressing the new skill line is horizontal progression - it broadens your abilities.
If they are really clever what they would do in have a complex, multi-strand, interwoven quest-chain - and depending on who you assist you get a different skill line.
For example, a zone-wide quest-chain linked to a major infestation of Undead could lead to a Necromancer skill-line for those players who assist the "infestation" and an Arkay skill-line for those who combat the infestation.
They could do a similar thing with a Dark Brotherhood / Stendar focus, a Thieve's Guild / Zenithar focus etc.
Heck, I'm not much of an ES-Lore Junky but those two came to me almost straight away.
The potential for running with this type of thing is immense.
Replayability then comes in to it if someone wishes to develop the Skill-Lines their quest choices barred to them.
With existing skill trees the ability to combine BOTH Morphs of a skill when you hit level 50 in that skill line could also work.
All The BestEdited by Gandrhulf_Harbard on July 7, 2015 6:03PMThose memories come back to haunt me, they haunt me like a curse.
Is a dream a lie if it don't come true, or is it something worse.2 -
Morimizo✭✭✭✭✭
✭I detest level caps of any kind, whether in skills or levels. Every time a character successfully completes any game activity, they should improve. Always. Not just for a bit, and then a wall; ALWAYS.
Instead of more Veteran Ranks, I would've preferred switching to something akin to the Oblivion-style of naming proficiency; Novice, Apprentice, Journeyman, Expert, and Master. Levels 1-50 (for both Chr level AND skills) can be Novice through Journeyman, the current Vet ranks 1-14 could be Expert, and when the new content is released, Master levels which take a VERY long time to attain, but would be VERY worth it in terms of gear and power.
Make all Expert/Master dungeons/delves/trials scalable by number of players who enter and to the group leader.
Separate Pvp only by those who prefer to fight Expert and above, Journeyman or below, or 'everybody welcome to try' servers.
Why folks don't want to acquire new gear with a level increase is beyond me; it's one of the joys to craft and find new gear, I think. On what else are you going to spend your gold? No new crafting materials above Void/Nightwood is very disappointing, though.
**More content is obviously universally appealing, but without continued progression for skills (why not a second morph for instance?) or chr levels, or whatever semantic like 'horizontal progression' folks want to call improving your character as you play; well, I consider that stagnant and unimmersive.
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Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It will also be the only conent available, as all current will be rendered obsolete, unless they scale it up to VR16 too.
Yup, this deserves more attention.
There is no point in running content that rewards VR10/12/14 items when you could do VR16 content instead. In this case, increased level caps actually narrow the viable content of the game.Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.1 -
Gandrhulf_Harbard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Why folks don't want to acquire new gear with a level increase is beyond me; it's one of the joys to craft and find new gear, I think.
It usually is in most MMORPGs.
But the way Tempers and Traits work in ESO makes high-end crafting extremely cumbersome, costly and time-consuming.
A cleverer crafting system would go a long way to fixing this thought.
But that won't happen because Zeni want to "be different", for which see my sig.
All The BestThose memories come back to haunt me, they haunt me like a curse.
Is a dream a lie if it don't come true, or is it something worse.0 -
IcyDeadPeople✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It will also be the only conent available, as all current will be rendered obsolete, unless they scale it up to VR16 too.
Yup, this deserves more attention.
There is no point in running content that rewards VR10/12/14 items when you could do VR16 content instead. In this case, increased level caps actually narrow the viable content of the game.
In my case I wouldn't actually mind if there was never any new content added to the game. I play mainly in Cyrodiil and don't particularly enjoy doing quests or PVE dungeons.
However, I look forward to experimenting with new builds made possible by new gear sets and skill lines, etc.
Edited by IcyDeadPeople on July 7, 2015 6:13PM1 -
Rosveen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I'm indifferent to level cap increases. Levels are a fine measure of progress, but not a goal in and of themselves. The goal is doing fun activities, learning new skills and mastering skills I already learned. When I buy a DLC, I'm primarily interested in new adventures: quests, dungeons, social side activities. I want to do something new. Gaining levels while doing so is nice, but not a priority. To raise the level cap without new content is just forcing people to grind.
This is precisely the reason why I dislike the veteran ranks. I'm fine with long progression, this never bothered me, but I have a problem with the way I have to progress. I chose my faction, I want to stay loyal, I have alts to experience enemy factions. Playing through enemy factions with my first character isn't interesting new content - it's a cheap rehash. In my mind it's a forced quest grind. I'm mentioning this because I hoped new DLC would offer alternative leveling paths for new veteran characters. Now I see it will be balanced for v14 characters, so while I'll probably be able to tackle it in a group at a lower level, it won't be easy. Of course I expected this to happen, but it's still a little disappointing.Edited by Rosveen on July 7, 2015 6:25PM1 -
michaelb14a_ESO2✭✭✭✭Cherryblossom wrote: »I still don't understand Horizonal Progression, anything that makes you more powerful is verticle progression surely
CS is Verticle, it in no way helps you to specialise, surely specialisation would come from more morphs to existing skills create more fun and interesting ways to use them, even synergies from using skills together.
So Vertical progression is a hallmark of RPG and cRPG games, of which MMOs have their roots. Horizontal progression is pretty antithetical to RPG gameplay. Horizontal progression, is most definitely a thing. It's is a hallmark of sports games and FPS gameplay.
Think of horizontal progression this way: A golf player like Tiger Woods is always going to be good at golf, no matter the quality of the equipment (clubs, shoes, caddy, gloves etc) and regardless of how well he knows a course. That said, it’s IS in his interest to use the best equipment money can buy. On the other end (hence the name horizontal progression), a really terrible golfer, such as myself; may indeed be a golf "expert", know the game inside out, the physics, the rules, the stats; know the course front to back AND could use the best equipment available; even identicle, and still I will always suck at golf. I'm simply just not coordinated enough to land the ball where it needs to be. The equipment/knowledge in and of itself does not make someone better at golf; it’s really someones physical golf "skill", combined with the quality of the equipment and knowledge that enables a player to excel.
When translating to video games, type of progression has to do entirely in how a game rewards players. RPG's have vastly different player reward/gameplay goals than sports and FPS games. Sports/FPS games reward player physical dexterity, reaction, aim with "wins". RPG's reward players based on time invested, equipment and knowledge of the game's meta, numbers, mechanics and enviroment with "advancement" and skill.
The important thing is: neither is "better" or "worse" than the other. Good games have a soul and know what they want to be and do, rather than try to be everything to everyone.
tldr:
Horizontal progression: Rewards skill, by awarding wins.
Vertical progression: Rewards wins, by awarding skill.1 -
Dionysusjones✭✭✭Akavir_Sentinel wrote: »"Horizontal Progression" is just an empty buzzword that lazy players like to throw around because they don't like having to take the time to level up and earn things like everyone else. I've yet to see anyone describe what horizontal progression is and what it would entail.
Horizontal progression as i see it is a small progression that indeed makes a character more powerful without raising the overall lvl cap. This can be done through for instance going on a series of quest to collect the pieces needed to build an epic staff of destruction or dagger of stabby stab. The weapon can have many different levels that would grant more damage and effects. Look at for example the Warlock set. Say for instance there was a staff at lvl 2 that did what 2 pieces of warlock do... etc etc.
The progression doesn't have to be as drastic as mentioned above as one piece granting all warlock bonus would be quite OP but thats the general idea of "horizontal progression" as I see it. It keeps "old" content viable and challenging instead of faceroll territory once more levels are obtained. Also going back to our epic staff of destruction idea the shards could effectively be placed in said "old" content to make it viable to run said content with new players and seasoned vets alike instead of eventually having barren wastelands of zones and content that used to be endgame 2 years ago.
FFXI used horizontal progression for quite some time keeping the level cap at 75 for 7+ years and updating content via new zones with SLIGHTLY better gear and some best in slot pieces still coming from old content. This would be my ideal progression path. A path that makes old content still viable instead of just a place to get gear to do the dungeon that gives you gear so that you can get the "good gear". << we all know this kind of progression and its silly0 -
VictoriaRachel✭✭✭Hypothetically, what if the level cap raised and you just continued what you were doing before the cap was raised. Wouldn't you get those levels anyway? Or are you feeling like you're being interrupted because what you're doing doesn't give you XP. If that's the case, why are you concerned with level cap? If your "own aims and goals" don't include activities that yield XP, you don't need the levels. Or is it that you don't want to HAVE to get to the next level to play new content?
I would get those levels, yes. But what has that actually added to the game? Nothing. If I am just doing what I was doing anyway why would there need to be a higher level cap? That to me is not progression. Sure a few numbers get bigger but that is a very artificial and very unrewarding. I do like progression, I do want progression. It is just in my opinion level caps alone do not provide anything of any meaning.
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