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Why I feel the proposed roll dodge change is ill considered
Tavore1138
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I do understand the frustration with stamina builds that stack regen and can basically roll dodge a couple of dozen times or more in a combat situation and I even agree that it is not unreasonable to do something about that. But the proposed idea of treating it like bolt escape seem ill considered to say the least.
To compare those two skills it to compare apples and radioactive superfruit.
One bolt escape, just a single one, takes you beyond the range of any AOE effect in the game as well as well as either absorbing projectiles or stunning/damaging opponents into the bargain.
Two bolt escapes take you beyond the range of any gap closers.
In contrast you need two roll dodges to get out of any decent area AOE and considerably more to get out of range of any of the many gap closers available.
Thus to start applying penalties immediately seems like a blunt tool at best.
If roll dodge is to be treated like bolt escape then it needs to have the benefits as well as the penalties - i.e. roll dodge should take you further per dodge so you only need to use it once to escape an AOE or leave enemies who miss a single target attack off balance or some other balancing benefit.
Equally if you fall into a group of talons using DKs then you have no choice but to roll dodge or die, removing/reducing the ability to use a basic CC break is crazy. What is next? Increasing the cost of break free by 50% if it is used more than once? Stopping stamina regen for tanks??! (errr... yeah... ok...)
As a last point roll dodge is not a matter of game balance - it is there for every player regardless of class, everyone uses it or should be using it to get out of sticky situations.
I fear ZOS have listened to a small subset of very vocal and repetitive complaints by people unwilling to come up with basic techniques to catch the roll dodgers (personally I run after them spamming steel tornado if I really care enough... same with misted vamps)... or simply live with the fact they can't catch and kill everyone.
To compare those two skills it to compare apples and radioactive superfruit.
One bolt escape, just a single one, takes you beyond the range of any AOE effect in the game as well as well as either absorbing projectiles or stunning/damaging opponents into the bargain.
Two bolt escapes take you beyond the range of any gap closers.
In contrast you need two roll dodges to get out of any decent area AOE and considerably more to get out of range of any of the many gap closers available.
Thus to start applying penalties immediately seems like a blunt tool at best.
If roll dodge is to be treated like bolt escape then it needs to have the benefits as well as the penalties - i.e. roll dodge should take you further per dodge so you only need to use it once to escape an AOE or leave enemies who miss a single target attack off balance or some other balancing benefit.
Equally if you fall into a group of talons using DKs then you have no choice but to roll dodge or die, removing/reducing the ability to use a basic CC break is crazy. What is next? Increasing the cost of break free by 50% if it is used more than once? Stopping stamina regen for tanks??! (errr... yeah... ok...)
As a last point roll dodge is not a matter of game balance - it is there for every player regardless of class, everyone uses it or should be using it to get out of sticky situations.
I fear ZOS have listened to a small subset of very vocal and repetitive complaints by people unwilling to come up with basic techniques to catch the roll dodgers (personally I run after them spamming steel tornado if I really care enough... same with misted vamps)... or simply live with the fact they can't catch and kill everyone.
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dRudE✭✭✭Your missing one very very vital piece of information, roll dodge does not take up a skill slot on your bar. Yes bolt gets you further away and yes it can be morphed to do some damage, but it takes up a slot that could be used for more dps. Roll dodge does not take up a slot but gives more defensive capability to a stam stacked class than bolt does to a mag stacked sorc.~Necrow0 -
Skiserony✭✭✭I don't think roll dodge is fair to compare with bolt escape for now. But I do get your point.0 -
mtwiggz✭✭✭✭✭Your missing one very very vital piece of information, roll dodge does not take up a skill slot on your bar. Yes bolt gets you further away and yes it can be morphed to do some damage, but it takes up a slot that could be used for more dps. Roll dodge does not take up a slot but gives more defensive capability to a stam stacked class than bolt does to a mag stacked sorc.
This. This right here.
I have a stamina NB and a magicka sorc. My escapability is much better on my stamina NB due to the fact that I can spam dodge roll for literally the entire distance from Sej to BRK - as I've done it before. My sorc can only bolt perhaps halfway before running out of magicka. Both characters are built for regen, both have similar regen number as well as resource pools. Not to mention the NB class in particular can pop a cloak here and there to keep escaping but regain some stamina in the process.
Regardless of this, that or the other - I completely disagree with the new penalties to both roll dodging and bolt escape. Yet if one is getting hit with the nerf bat I believe the other should as well. To keep them both balanced with one another.0 -
NotSo✭✭✭✭Bolt escape and streak morph still eats all projectiles on their way to target, dodgeroll sheds all. Completely separate mechanics, I'd say. But I still support a way to nerf perma dodgers so at least let the rest of us have a free dodgeroll every 5 seconds.Gar'Sol the Wanderer VR14 Khajiit Sorcerer Spellblade0 -
Chaos0720✭✭✭Your missing one very very vital piece of information, roll dodge does not take up a skill slot on your bar. Yes bolt gets you further away and yes it can be morphed to do some damage, but it takes up a slot that could be used for more dps. Roll dodge does not take up a slot but gives more defensive capability to a stam stacked class than bolt does to a mag stacked sorc.
But everyone has the same access to it. And it doesn't take much to have enough stamina to roll twice. Don't want to put points in stamina? Don't. Have fun getting everywhere at a snails pace, but you can put stamina buffs on armor. I'm not a competitive player, so I could be completely wrong, but can you honestly tell me that a few extra skill points in exchange to be able to role away, or giving up an armor enchantment is really going to make that much of a difference?
And like @SuraklinPrime stated. What's so wrong with living with the fact that you can't catch everyone? I put no effort into stamina in real life and couldn't catch a thief to save my life. But I have other things about me that counter that out. Ya know? People want immersion in their MMOs, but then they complain when everyone isn't the same or "equal". Real life isn't equal. An immersive MMO shouldn't be either.
I should get rewarded for focusing on stamina and giving up health or magicka. What makes any other person (not you specifically) any more special that you shouldn't have to dump points into stamina to be able to roll dodge? You (again not you personally) can't do it as effective because you didn't allocate points appropriately, so we should take it away from the people that did? How does that seem fair?0 -
dRudE✭✭✭Your missing one very very vital piece of information, roll dodge does not take up a skill slot on your bar. Yes bolt gets you further away and yes it can be morphed to do some damage, but it takes up a slot that could be used for more dps. Roll dodge does not take up a slot but gives more defensive capability to a stam stacked class than bolt does to a mag stacked sorc.
But everyone has the same access to it. And it doesn't take much to have enough stamina to roll twice. Don't want to put points in stamina? Don't. Have fun getting everywhere at a snails pace, but you can put stamina buffs on armor. I'm not a competitive player, so I could be completely wrong, but can you honestly tell me that a few extra skill points in exchange to be able to role away, or giving up an armor enchantment is really going to make that much of a difference?
And like @SuraklinPrime stated. What's so wrong with living with the fact that you can't catch everyone? I put no effort into stamina in real life and couldn't catch a thief to save my life. But I have other things about me that counter that out. Ya know? People want immersion in their MMOs, but then they complain when everyone isn't the same or "equal". Real life isn't equal. An immersive MMO shouldn't be either.
I should get rewarded for focusing on stamina and giving up health or magicka. What makes any other person (not you specifically) any more special that you shouldn't have to dump points into stamina to be able to roll dodge? You (again not you personally) can't do it as effective because you didn't allocate points appropriately, so we should take it away from the people that did? How does that seem fair?
Sure just as everyone can pick up a resto staff and heal people, but would a stam stacked nb do that? No they wouldn't have the magicka pool/regen/spell damage to make it viable. Juts like a mag stacked sorc would not use roll dodge as a prime escape mechanic.
This is the problem. People complain about sorcs giving up 4 skill slots for defense when stam classes give up 0 and still maintain the same defense, and on top of that they want detection pots nerfed!
The line has been crossed, time to pull it back a little.~Necrow0 -
Tavore1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Your missing one very very vital piece of information, roll dodge does not take up a skill slot on your bar. Yes bolt gets you further away and yes it can be morphed to do some damage, but it takes up a slot that could be used for more dps. Roll dodge does not take up a slot but gives more defensive capability to a stam stacked class than bolt does to a mag stacked sorc.
You are right it does not use a slot but it does burn stamina that a stamina player would probably rather use stabbing you, just as bolt escape uses magicka a sorc might prefer to use on another spell.
However a magicka player with no points in stamina has enough stamina to roll dodge or break free and still have an untouched magicka pool, but a stamina player has no way to use their magicka pool in the same way so as to maintain their primary resource while escaping CC or dodging other attacks.
The exception is the cloak skills for NBs when they work but they still leave the player in aoe range and are quite pricey for a stamina build to employ, and no use at all for stamina dks, temps or sorcs.0 -
Chaos0720✭✭✭I think everyone needs to stop whining about little things. Play the game and have fun. Is it really necessary to try and get a raging *** by min/maxing the "perfect" build.
And before you respond with:
But what your not understanding is that that is part of how mmos work.
My counter arguement to you... Things change. Catch up with the times. Murder used to be allowed. Women used to not be allowed to do anything. Just because that's how it was or has been doesn't mean it needs to continue to be that way.
Lemme help you out a bit.
F is for friends who do stuff together,
U is for you and me
N in for Nyone and Nytime at all down here in the deep blue see.
Edited by Chaos0720 on July 5, 2015 10:49PM0 -
BigMac_Smiley✭✭✭My idea would be to make rol dodge a special skill that does not cost stam, but has a cool down so it could not be spammed. It would still be good to make a roll out off fire or a talons, but you would have to wait X amount of time until the next roll.0 -
Tavore1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Your missing one very very vital piece of information, roll dodge does not take up a skill slot on your bar. Yes bolt gets you further away and yes it can be morphed to do some damage, but it takes up a slot that could be used for more dps. Roll dodge does not take up a slot but gives more defensive capability to a stam stacked class than bolt does to a mag stacked sorc.
But everyone has the same access to it. And it doesn't take much to have enough stamina to roll twice. Don't want to put points in stamina? Don't. Have fun getting everywhere at a snails pace, but you can put stamina buffs on armor. I'm not a competitive player, so I could be completely wrong, but can you honestly tell me that a few extra skill points in exchange to be able to role away, or giving up an armor enchantment is really going to make that much of a difference?
And like @SuraklinPrime stated. What's so wrong with living with the fact that you can't catch everyone? I put no effort into stamina in real life and couldn't catch a thief to save my life. But I have other things about me that counter that out. Ya know? People want immersion in their MMOs, but then they complain when everyone isn't the same or "equal". Real life isn't equal. An immersive MMO shouldn't be either.
I should get rewarded for focusing on stamina and giving up health or magicka. What makes any other person (not you specifically) any more special that you shouldn't have to dump points into stamina to be able to roll dodge? You (again not you personally) can't do it as effective because you didn't allocate points appropriately, so we should take it away from the people that did? How does that seem fair?
Sure just as everyone can pick up a resto staff and heal people, but would a stam stacked nb do that? No they wouldn't have the magicka pool/regen/spell damage to make it viable. Juts like a mag stacked sorc would not use roll dodge as a prime escape mechanic.
This is the problem. People complain about sorcs giving up 4 skill slots for defense when stam classes give up 0 and still maintain the same defense, and on top of that they want detection pots nerfed!
The line has been crossed, time to pull it back a little.
Actually I have seen stam builds do that as a ranged option, heavy hits keeping the magicka up so they can pump a few springs or mutagens before switching to their main bar as their stam regens, not a bad way to manage resources and add some off heal in a long combat.
But - I agree a line has been crossed, just not as far as some would have us believe. It does need a fix but what ZOS have proposed is a poor option with no subtlety. They don't seem to have even considered that they have CP passives and gear sets that feed of roll dodge that they would be nerfing at the same time.
As I say ill considered.0 -
Tavore1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭BigMac_Smiley wrote: »My idea would be to make rol dodge a special skill that does not cost stam, but has a cool down so it could not be spammed. It would still be good to make a roll out off fire or a talons, but you would have to wait X amount of time until the next roll.
I think you'd still need to do 2 before being stopped but maybe first one free, second one costs x ammount of your stamina or magicka, whichever is highest at max. Subsequent ones cost 10% more per succesive use meaning perma rolling is no longer viable. Counter resets sfter not dodging for maybe 4 secs.1 -
Forestd16b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The nerf to rolling is to cut back on perma roll players but not to much to ahrm every one. Unlike BE rolling is for every one you don't need to be a DK or NB to use it how ever you need to be a sorc to use BE heance why rolling is getting 33% cost more to BE 50% more.0