Honestly this needs to be said for all players

Enaijo · June 2015

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

You're not the only one that knows how coding works. Sure programmers tend to miss a thing or 2 here and there when they develop code and then they go in and fix it but it's a bit different for games when anything that can go wrong will regardless of how precise a programmer coded it. You can't keep an MMORPG completely bug-free 100% of the time when making updates and patches because as I stated before they are adverse effects of trying to fix things.

Again, that's simply not true. Yes, you can't keep ANYTHING a human does 100% free of "bugs". Programing is nothing special there and MMORPGs are nothing special either in the world of programing. If a programer does something wrong, it doesn't matter if it's an MMORPG, the firmware of a dish-washer or the software that calculates how much taxes you have to pay, it's the fault of the programer. Everyone know that a human always does something wrong, we are not machines.

But it's a bit lame to go out and tell "oh yeah, MMORPGs are the most complicated projects out there and they are magic, they produce bugs out of thin air", because it's just not true.

Another poster already wrote about one of the problems: the salary. In comaprison, the gaming-industry is realy low paid as a programer, especially when it comes to MMOs and good programers are really hard to come by. That's one of the reasons why MMORPGs are a magnet for bugs and why new content in MMOs often lacks new systems. A new zone, new quests and so on you can do almost completely without a programer. But for something like spell-crafting or housing, you need programers so that kind of content usualy takes way longer or is never done.

Gandrhulf_Harbard · June 2015

PBpsy wrote: »

They should have never considered removing vet levels.

Coming from more traditional MMOs I think they should never have added them in to start with.

Vet Levels are a cheap and lazy substitute to genuine end-game content.

Can you see WoW turning end-game in to a super-grind-fest play through the opposite factions zones? No. Wouldn't happen. And it shouldn't have happened here either.

I had originally intended to play one main toon in each faction. But as I have to play through the other factions to get my "main main" to end-game I have no real desire to see those stories through again.

Because while the game-world is brilliantly envisioned and beautiful to run through the "questing" really is of a standard that many MMORPGs gave up on 3 years ago.

SWTOR has announced a return to "Bioware Storytelling" with Fallen Empire. I watched that FE teaser trailer once, and went and resubbed to SWTOR for 3 months. Why? Because the class-quest story telling in SWTOR is miles, and miles ahead of any other MMO out there. And levelling an Alt to end-game is 80% a new experience because it has a unique class-quest storyline.

ESO has generic storylines that offer little to no replayability.

Wildstar learned that lesson with its Path quests that add a little bit of uniqueness to levelling an Alt.

Imagine that individuality of levelling experience added to ESO, so that within each faction there were 4 intersecting but unique storylines. 12 totally different ways to level to end-game. Now THAT is replayability, not VR.

All The Best

sadownik · June 2015

Kaitona wrote: »

I'm not saying it's easy but it's far from hard. There are a lot harder things to work out in life than some game code. As for the PC gamers claiming they have a right to complain, they don't really. The game gives you plenty of value for money in it's vanilla state, anything added to that is just icing on the cake.

Right. Over 1.5 milion copies sold on pc in first month (ofc its just estiamte since we dont have any official data). 750 subscribers 2 moths later supposibly. Seems that many disagree with you.

Gidorick · June 2015

No its not easy. But it's their JOB. Look at what the Addon makers have accomplished for free and quite quickly

FelixTheCatt · June 2015

I'm not going to even pretend to know how difficult and thankless it is to make games in this day and age. Let's not act like you're in danger of throwing your back out or pulling muscles. You take on a franchise like ESO , you know expectations are going to be through the roof.

ZoS took this on and I followed this a long time before it was released. They promised quite a bit and built up expectations in gamers themselves. I'm sorry , you make a GTA game , you know what you're expecting. Right? Fallout? Well , TeS has that same kinda weight behind it. When you take on something like that , you know what you're getting your company into well in advance. You best deliver the goods and they knew that. Players didn't make the promises. ZoS did. So sorry , that "my job is hard" defense doesn't cut it with me at all.

Personally , I love the game. Obviously , theres room for improvement but I get that. Still , you make the bed you lie in. While I don't complain much , I see why others do , especially the gamers that play this on pc.

Yorubuke · June 2015

sadownik wrote: »

Kaitona wrote: »

I'm not saying it's easy but it's far from hard. There are a lot harder things to work out in life than some game code. As for the PC gamers claiming they have a right to complain, they don't really. The game gives you plenty of value for money in it's vanilla state, anything added to that is just icing on the cake.

Right. Over 1.5 milion copies sold on pc in first month (ofc its just estiamte since we dont have any official data). 750 subscribers 2 moths later supposibly. Seems that many disagree with you.

Both console and pc have some right to complain. i played the pc when it came out and i was 1 of the pepl who quit. and honestly console is heading the same way if ESO doesnt get fix quickly. No body wants to play a game that has loads of glitches and bugs and multiple maintences every week that dont seem to fix anything.

coryevans_3b14_ESO · June 2015

ttschreiner wrote: »

People thinks it's so easy to add or delete things in the game like it's a simple option to check in a box and drop in a trash bin and it's over. It's not. I've done game art and design in my past and I also did a lot of game scripting as well. It's not easy. Scripting is probably one of the most important things in gaming to be honest. What if they delete the script for Veteran Ranks then all of a sudden everyone logs on the game and every character is all of a sudden at level 1 out of nowhere. Oh and no armor, no skills, and you don't even start in the wailing prison. Or you do and the first weapon you start with a frying pan that does little damage and doesn't block. You wouldn't be too happy now would you? I mean I know I wouldn't. Things have to be precise. They probably have made there own private server and are tweaking the script seeing how things work and deleting things and adding things to see if the game still works and that there are no glitches that would ruin the whole gaming experience. People need to chill. These things take time. They understand. I have no idea what they're doing and how they're handling things and taking upon what people are suggesting in forums but still... Chill...

That didn't need to be said. You're making excuses for a company that has a year long history of telling false hoods and leading on it's PC customers with false hope. I used to be able to keep track of all the times they've done this. Now there are too many to count.

Also, there are a good number of us that understand programming/networking.

Gandrhulf_Harbard · June 2015

@FelixTheCatt pretty much in total agreement with you.

The deal with taking on a franchise like ESO is that you get a huge positive: players will cut you some slack on some issues because hey, they get to play ESO. Turbine has ran with this "slack" for far too long in LOTRO IMO, and I am as guilty as anyone of letting them get away with it, because hey I was playing Lord Of The Rings.

But you also get a huge negative: there are significant expectations that HAVE TO BE MET, there's no wriggle-room on some of these, anything less than 100% will be classed as a fail.

Zenimax must have know this is what they were getting themselves into.

Now the balancing act is this: how long can we ride that "slack" before we have to deliver 100% on some of those expectations.

Turbine got away with it for a good few years, in some respects they are still getting away with - the release of Beornings for example, no class appropriate gear for Beorning for something like two updates after they were released, but no one minded too much because hey, we're playing a dude that can turn in to a bear.

It seems to me that Zeni have lost control of this "good will vs expectation" balancing act sooner than I had expected, and probably far, far sooner than they had planned for.

Which means that the bottom line is that is is now time to start delivering on those expectations and lapsed promises - no excuses, no slack, no wriggle-room.

Can they step up to that plate and start delivering?

Honestly, i think if they could they would already have done so.

All The Best

Merlin13KAGL · June 2015

Good coders test their code, be it hardcoded, scripted, or database objects.

You provide background tracebacks to be able to follow flow and produce (at least internally) errors with more useful information than <<1>>, which roughly translated for non-programmers out there means "*uck if I know what happened? Something's broke."

You leave these things in place through testing (PTS server!?) and once content that they are working appropriately, you remove the extra to optimize the code.

It's why the concept of stable build was introduced.

Bugs are going to happen, but in a well designed system, it's also not as hard to not have or fix bugs than you are making it out to be.

Analogy: You generally don't change the tire on your car and cause your neighbor's engine to no longer start.

Funkopotamus · June 2015

Well I do not know how to build a car nor fly a plane so that is why I PAY MONEY for someone else that does to do so.

And I remind you I pay them to do so. Is it then okay for them not to do it correctly?

Gidorick · June 2015

Funkopotamus wrote: »

Well I do not know how to build a car nor fly a plane so that is why I PAY MONEY for someone else that does to do so.

And I remind you I pay them to do so. Is it then okay for them not to do it correctly?

Yep. This.

Heromofo · June 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

Funkopotamus wrote: »

Well I do not know how to build a car nor fly a plane so that is why I PAY MONEY for someone else that does to do so.

And I remind you I pay them to do so. Is it then okay for them not to do it correctly?

Yep. This.

Double to this

lathbury · June 2015

Kaitona wrote: »

I'm not saying it's easy but it's far from hard. There are a lot harder things to work out in life than some game code. As for the PC gamers claiming they have a right to complain, they don't really. The game gives you plenty of value for money in it's vanilla state, anything added to that is just icing on the cake.

why don't pc players have the right to complain as long as is its done without bashing or trolling and offers suggestions to improve. I'm pretty sure we can do what we like. PC players generally paid more than for just the vanilla state unless they only played till their free time ran out. Also it is vanilla state a lot are complaining about LAG, LFG still doesn't work, quality of life features absent, poor ui, cadwells silver gold, to low difficulty, poor itemisation, class unbalances, launcher that doesn't work properly..... I could continue but these are things in its vanilla state that people were lead to believe paying for a sub for 12 months would help to get fixed. So not only do they have a right to (fascist much) but they should otherwise no improvements would ever get introduced.

sadownik · June 2015

@FelixTheCatt and @Gandrhulf_Harbard good posts. Picking up ES lore is not an easy task but it doesnt mean we should be grateful for whatever effect (or lack of it) we see in ESO. Its a product after all and we are the customers.

Pallmor · June 2015

ttschreiner wrote: »

People thinks it's so easy to add or delete things in the game like it's a simple option to check in a box and drop in a trash bin and it's over. It's not. I've done game art and design in my past and I also did a lot of game scripting as well. It's not easy. Scripting is probably one of the most important things in gaming to be honest. What if they delete the script for Veteran Ranks then all of a sudden everyone logs on the game and every character is all of a sudden at level 1 out of nowhere. Oh and no armor, no skills, and you don't even start in the wailing prison. Or you do and the first weapon you start with a frying pan that does little damage and doesn't block. You wouldn't be too happy now would you? I mean I know I wouldn't. Things have to be precise. They probably have made there own private server and are tweaking the script seeing how things work and deleting things and adding things to see if the game still works and that there are no glitches that would ruin the whole gaming experience. People need to chill. These things take time. They understand. I have no idea what they're doing and how they're handling things and taking upon what people are suggesting in forums but still... Chill...

I like the way you think, Caldwell!

netch_a_sketch · June 2015

I agree with OP. It's easy for people to say 'Add this, add that, hurry up, why haven't you added player homes yet?'
I don't think they realise just how much work it takes to do.

lathbury · June 2015

Jazzius wrote: »

I agree with OP. It's easy for people to say 'Add this, add that, hurry up, why haven't you added player homes yet?'
I don't think they realise just how much work it takes to do.

read thread then post ppl realise that stuff takes time but there is stuff in the game broken from pc beta LFG tool anyone

Furor · June 2015

sadownik wrote: »

So its more complicated that brain surgery? I play MMOs for almost 20 years now and very rarely ive seen such struggle to fixing and changing code.

I didn't realize playing MMOs gets you a degree in computer science...

On a serious note, people complain about content that hasn't been released. But I'd much rather wait for good content than have content released early that is just bad.

sadownik · June 2015

Furor wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

So its more complicated that brain surgery? I play MMOs for almost 20 years now and very rarely ive seen such struggle to fixing and changing code.

I didn't realize playing MMOs gets you a degree in computer science...

It doesnt. It also doesnt take away my common sense and ability to compare products from the same genre and of similar magintude.

BigM · June 2015

I never understood why all the stories are the same for all alliances, you would think they would be different for each one. So once you go thru one story you have actually seen all three!

Furor · June 2015

sadownik wrote: »

It doesnt. It also doesnt take away my common sense and ability to compare products from the same genre and of similar magintude.

Please tell me how you're able to compare detailed Game Engine functionality with common sense.....

People need to stop overestimating the simplicity of even "simple" fixes.

sadownik · June 2015

Furor wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

It doesnt. It also doesnt take away my common sense and ability to compare products from the same genre and of similar magintude.

Please tell me how you're able to compare detailed Game Engine functionality with common sense.....

People need to stop overestimating the simplicity of even "simple" fixes.

Are you a profesional troll? How can i compare 1 MMO to another? How can i compare 1 game with other released in the same preiod of time? If you dont know the answer to that questions then i guess i must just stop here.

Rune_Relic · June 2015

If you have made code so difficult to manage it repeatedly breaks the system...
...then the management need to rethink their coding priorities and practices.

If fixing code creates devastating knock on effects, you need to rewrite it in a way that doesn't.
Otherwise you might as well cut some holes in your wallet and let the notes fly away as you waste it fixing stuff instead of creating content.
Thorough testing before implementation helps.

If they actually took the time to make sure updates were bug free and working as intended, we probably would have had twice as much new content by now...AND PEOPLE WOULDNT SCREAM AND SHOUT

PBpsy · June 2015

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

They should have never considered removing vet levels.

Coming from more traditional MMOs I think they should never have added them in to start with.

Vet Levels are a cheap and lazy substitute to genuine end-game content.

Can you see WoW turning end-game in to a super-grind-fest play through the opposite factions zones? No. Wouldn't happen. And it shouldn't have happened here either.

I had originally intended to play one main toon in each faction. But as I have to play through the other factions to get my "main main" to end-game I have no real desire to see those stories through again.

Because while the game-world is brilliantly envisioned and beautiful to run through the "questing" really is of a standard that many MMORPGs gave up on 3 years ago.

SWTOR has announced a return to "Bioware Storytelling" with Fallen Empire. I watched that FE teaser trailer once, and went and resubbed to SWTOR for 3 months. Why? Because the class-quest story telling in SWTOR is miles, and miles ahead of any other MMO out there. And levelling an Alt to end-game is 80% a new experience because it has a unique class-quest storyline.

ESO has generic storylines that offer little to no replayability.

Wildstar learned that lesson with its Path quests that add a little bit of uniqueness to levelling an Alt.

Imagine that individuality of levelling experience added to ESO, so that within each faction there were 4 intersecting but unique storylines. 12 totally different ways to level to end-game. Now THAT is replayability, not VR.

All The Best

I agree the VR system should have not been in the game. However since it was put in the game ZOS shouldn't have tried to remove or replace after the initial reaction after the PC launch. What they should have done was to rapidly take measures to minimize the effects of the system on the end game.This would have been a much simpler endeavor.

What ZOS chose is the complete apposite. They chose to add another bloated complex system on top of the old one and then remove the old one from underneath by some method ,in who knows how many stages and who knows how. The new system of course even more annoying to the players and people already started complaining for its removal. The hole they dug themselves into is growing deeper and deeper.

The end result is that what we got is B2P, delayed content and crappy grindy "progressions systems".

I agree SWTOR story system was much much better but that game also failed due to some of the same reasons ESO failed.

smtdbplus · June 2015

sadownik wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Kaitona wrote: »

I don't think it's as hard as you make it out to be. Granted, I'm not a developer and I don't know anything about writing scripts but it can't be that hard.

Wrong. There is WAY more to it than you think.

So its more complicated that brain surgery? I play MMOs for almost 20 years now and very rarely ive seen such struggle to fixing and changing code.

Answering your question, yes it is a million times more complicated than a brain surgery. Think about 100 people working on your brain together for 3 years, that's a closer comparison.

People think they know how to dig up a road and therefore they know how to build a whole city from scratch. That is naive. Coding is digging the road, development project is buidling the whole thing.

However, having that said, trying to fix something resulting in breaking other parts is an indication of one of the following.
1. Bad design of the framework.
2. People are leaving / removed , and knowledge is not retained.
3. Outsourcing or change to offshore development mode.

I got the feeling that ESO is #1, which is un-recoverable in most cases. Good luck.

Regards,
Someone probably has (# of projects done > # of MMO played)

Furor · June 2015

smtdbplus wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Kaitona wrote: »

I don't think it's as hard as you make it out to be. Granted, I'm not a developer and I don't know anything about writing scripts but it can't be that hard.

Wrong. There is WAY more to it than you think.

So its more complicated that brain surgery? I play MMOs for almost 20 years now and very rarely ive seen such struggle to fixing and changing code.

Answering your question, yes it is a million times more complicated than a brain surgery. Think about 100 people working on your brain together for 3 years, that's a closer comparison.

People think they know how to dig up a road and therefore they know how to build a whole city from scratch. That is naive. Coding is digging the road, development project is buidling the whole thing.

However, having that said, trying to fix something resulting in breaking other parts is an indication of one of the following.
1. Bad design of the framework.
2. People are leaving / removed , and knowledge is not retained.
3. Outsourcing or change to offshore development mode.

I got the feeling that ESO is #1, which is un-recoverable in most cases. Good luck.

Regards,
Someone probably has (# of projects done > # of MMO played)

Someone else who gets it...

While you might be right about #1 being the issue, I hope for our sake you're wrong

Sallington · June 2015

smtdbplus wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Kaitona wrote: »

I don't think it's as hard as you make it out to be. Granted, I'm not a developer and I don't know anything about writing scripts but it can't be that hard.

Wrong. There is WAY more to it than you think.

So its more complicated that brain surgery? I play MMOs for almost 20 years now and very rarely ive seen such struggle to fixing and changing code.

Answering your question, yes it is a million times more complicated than a brain surgery. Think about 100 people working on your brain together for 3 years, that's a closer comparison.

People think they know how to dig up a road and therefore they know how to build a whole city from scratch. That is naive. Coding is digging the road, development project is buidling the whole thing.

However, having that said, trying to fix something resulting in breaking other parts is an indication of one of the following.
1. Bad design of the framework.
2. People are leaving / removed , and knowledge is not retained.
3. Outsourcing or change to offshore development mode.

I got the feeling that ESO is #1, which is un-recoverable in most cases. Good luck.

Regards,
Someone probably has (# of projects done > # of MMO played)

#1 for sure. The performance in Cyrodil and their inability to improve it, at all, is an indication of this.

sadownik · June 2015

Those are the rules of the White Knights of Zenimax:

1. You shall not speek evil about Zenimax
2. Zenimax cannot be wrong
3. If Zenimax is wrong go to rule no 2
4. If eveything fails - remember its MMO all MMOs have problems and ESO has least problems from all MMOs

Seriously though @Furor and @smtdbplus reading your posts seems like Zeni is building a first in history colony spaceship and not making an MMO which was done hundreds times before.

Aqualina · June 2015

I fully agree with the OP. Simply because people THINK something is easy, doesn't mean it is. My friends and I founded a indie game company of our own called Snow Dust Studios. We've been up and running since last year, but we're still working hard on the game and have nothing to show anyone yet but development. Why? Because bugs and big bugs and even more bugs and technical issues. The code is a nightmare at times even when we have it all organized and set up to where we know exactly what we're looking at. But when it comes to finding a bug and getting rid of it? Totally freaking nightmare. You have to test this thing and then that thing and then another thing, and then try this and try that. If what you did breaks something else over here then you have to put said code back in and go through the process all over again until you nail it down.

TL;DR: game design isn't super duper easy peasy as people make it out to be. Either help us (the devs in any company) or just be patient with us to work out what's wrong with the game you love. People need to remember we're human too, with feelings, emotions and a personality.

smtdbplus · June 2015

Furor wrote: »

smtdbplus wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Kaitona wrote: »

I don't think it's as hard as you make it out to be. Granted, I'm not a developer and I don't know anything about writing scripts but it can't be that hard.

Wrong. There is WAY more to it than you think.

So its more complicated that brain surgery? I play MMOs for almost 20 years now and very rarely ive seen such struggle to fixing and changing code.

Answering your question, yes it is a million times more complicated than a brain surgery. Think about 100 people working on your brain together for 3 years, that's a closer comparison.

People think they know how to dig up a road and therefore they know how to build a whole city from scratch. That is naive. Coding is digging the road, development project is buidling the whole thing.

However, having that said, trying to fix something resulting in breaking other parts is an indication of one of the following.
1. Bad design of the framework.
2. People are leaving / removed , and knowledge is not retained.
3. Outsourcing or change to offshore development mode.

I got the feeling that ESO is #1, which is un-recoverable in most cases. Good luck.

Regards,
Someone probably has (# of projects done > # of MMO played)

Someone else who gets it...

While you might be right about #1 being the issue, I hope for our sake you're wrong

I hope I am wrong too, but unfortunately I am a PM/PMO consultant, got paid by identifying issues and salvaging IT/SI projects.