Honestly this needs to be said for all players

ttschreiner · June 2015

People thinks it's so easy to add or delete things in the game like it's a simple option to check in a box and drop in a trash bin and it's over. It's not. I've done game art and design in my past and I also did a lot of game scripting as well. It's not easy. Scripting is probably one of the most important things in gaming to be honest. What if they delete the script for Veteran Ranks then all of a sudden everyone logs on the game and every character is all of a sudden at level 1 out of nowhere. Oh and no armor, no skills, and you don't even start in the wailing prison. Or you do and the first weapon you start with a frying pan that does little damage and doesn't block. You wouldn't be too happy now would you? I mean I know I wouldn't. Things have to be precise. They probably have made there own private server and are tweaking the script seeing how things work and deleting things and adding things to see if the game still works and that there are no glitches that would ruin the whole gaming experience. People need to chill. These things take time. They understand. I have no idea what they're doing and how they're handling things and taking upon what people are suggesting in forums but still... Chill...

Jasstenn · June 2015

Preach brother!

BuggeX · June 2015

You are right, but wich Gamedesigner would roll out a Update like this without a tested working backup?

Anyway, i still hope they dont remove V-Ranks

TheShadowScout · June 2015

Lots of lines of code to a game, lots of interconnected scripts, lots of things to go wrong when they add something or change something... 's why I never complain about any bugs coming with any new update - that's just part of the thing, and let's be honest, the PTB usually squash the worst of those bugs quickly enough from what I have seen. And understand that some things take time. Still wish they'd take less time, but... just the way things are.

Never liked those people who complain about this or that without realizing all the complexity behind it, or worse, not caring and wanting everything perfect, free, and now because of an overblown sense of entitlement...

I'd rather save complaining for when something -really- is f..... up.

sadownik · June 2015

This is all well and good but... bugs are in every game i played the difference is the speed at which those bugs are dealt with. ZOS is very bad at it. Just yesterday there was a huge patch in GW2 not only changing ruins of lions arch into very spectacular new town but also changing trait system - the core system of leveling. after patching up and playing for an hour i saw a system announcement - new version of client available in 10 min. After 10 minuts message - "you can log out to downolad the pathc" and bum 60 mb of hotfix 2.5 h after patching with the long list of things fixed.

I think GW2 spoiled me really.

Johngo0036 · June 2015

The part that gets to me regarding the development is this,

Surely Zenni should have coded this product in such a way that to add content would be easily done and NOT break existing content,

Then the whole LAG issue,
They went through iterations of fixing this on 1.5 and got it pretty much right,
then 1.6 comes and its back.

You should learn from mistakes......

byrom101b16_ESO · June 2015

My partner used to teach programming at university.

She is currently lead build manager for a mobile phone company. She used to work at the Samsung Electronic Research Institute. She has also programed games software, but didn't stay in that line of work for long due to reasons that will become clear below.

In short, she knows her programming skills, and I have talked to her at length on the issue of game bugs in MMOs etc. as she has commented on them many times, being a PC gamer herself.

Whilst everything the OP says about code changing is true, there are two observations she has made about the approach to MMOs companies seem to take.

I am not sure these will be popular or well understood observations, but they are true nevertheless;

1. Game developers are some of the lower paid professionals developing code. A dev. or build/integration manager working in another sector wouldn't usually consider moving to a games company due to the significant drop in salary involved.

Now, whether that means they do it 'for the love' regardless of the lower end pay, or there is another reason - well, that's not nailed down... at least I don't know of a survey asking such a question. I am however reminded that commercial companies usually pay what a service is worth, and this makes sense to me when I consider the relative reliability of commercial banking systems or smartphone software compared to your typical MMO.

Devs. etc. in those sectors get paid almost twice what game devs. get.

2. The unforeseen difficulties of changing code in a complex build like an MMO are to one extent unavoidable. It's like pulling on one thread starts to unravel other things you didn't know they were connected to.

However - the complexity of the build version you are working with, which is a product of the skill of the devs, the build integration work and the time allocated to testing as version were built up play significant part in determining how easy or difficult it is to change things later. It is also true that is you have a better idea of where you are going with something earlier on, the devs. can code it better, and the people integrating the code can make a cleaner job of it.

Last minute changes to functionality make it harder to patch and change later. Rushed changes mean less testing of each build...

So...

Whilst the OP is correct to point out coding and building a program as complex as an MMO is difficult, and changing it later even more so in some ways, this is only half the story.

Commercial pressure, changes in strategic decisions taken on what the code was supposed to achieve (with big changes mid-development process) and not paying the general market rate for your devs. etc. are likely all contributing factors.

As is the fact that the game playing community are far too forgiving of persistent bugs and lack of response in a way that users of other software systems with a million+ users would never be.

Yes - of course other systems have bugs - but they have customer bases who tend to abandon the product and go elsewhere if they are not resolved in good time.

We could collectively learn something from that. If we walked away from companies that got it wrong, quality would improve, and games would be in much better shape at release. Sure there would be fewer releases, but the smaller games companies, if they wanted to get into the MMO market would collaborate more, or amalgamate, and we'd get more 'Blizzard' level quality control and far fewer three-month MMO failures for forums to rant on about.

We should also be prepared to pay for quality instead of complaining about cash shops et al. MMO players are contradictory - showing high degrees of patience (albeit with plenty of complaining along the way) with issues like bugs and game changes which negatively impact them, but screaming from the rooftops far, far louder whenever a company tries to make money...

It is as much our fault as anyone else's...

Kaitona · June 2015

I don't think it's as hard as you make it out to be. Granted, I'm not a developer and I don't know anything about writing scripts but it can't be that hard.

UltimaJoe777 · June 2015

Kaitona wrote: »

I don't think it's as hard as you make it out to be. Granted, I'm not a developer and I don't know anything about writing scripts but it can't be that hard.

Wrong. There is WAY more to it than you think.

PBpsy · June 2015

snip

PBpsy · June 2015

They should have never considered removing vet levels. Anything they do now can't be anything but wrong.

Enaijo · June 2015

I'm, a programer by myself, think, that the bigger problem is the lack of proper communication. If ZOS really would be honest with the players, would treat them like adults, the forums wouldn't be such a pool of negativity.

But what we get, most of the time, is PR jabber and half-truths.

sadownik · June 2015

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Kaitona wrote: »

I don't think it's as hard as you make it out to be. Granted, I'm not a developer and I don't know anything about writing scripts but it can't be that hard.

Wrong. There is WAY more to it than you think.

So its more complicated that brain surgery? I play MMOs for almost 20 years now and very rarely ive seen such struggle to fixing and changing code.

Olivierko · June 2015

A5ko · June 2015

Just because it's no small task doesn't make it an impossible one.

ZoS is a rather large team consisting of many people being paid to code/design etc etc.

Stop making out like it's two guys in a shed with no coding knowledge.

lathbury · June 2015

This is my pet peeve console players coming here telling ppl to chill. PC players have a right to be annoyed with the content/communication that we have not received. I mean you do realise right it was November the last time there was anything new to do for us. This when many of is were promised something new every 4-6 weeks when we initially purchased the game. Then we were shown nothing but videos of what look to be finished zones for the next year.

That is not what has really annoyed a lot of the ppl you see on the forums though. what has really annoyed and caused many PC players I know to leave is the terrible communication and treatment of their fan base.They constantly say one thing and do another some people are going to point out that they may have never outright lied about things. This maybe true but it s eems to many of us that they are and have been consistently and deliberately misleading.
1
Even recently players asking not for new content per se but for any news on it were misled.
They were told soon after console .Then they were told on eso live this '' We have a an announcement planned at E3 and don't want to steal our own thunder.'' so I watched E3 guess what they could have shown last years video. Now they are telling People July while all of these are technically after console launch its one of many examples of them misleading the player base. makes me wonder if its even gonna be this July.

The other side of this coin is that 90% of the time they completely ignore the concerns of the community. I mean you do realise right that if they had listened to the BETA community PC launch would have gone better and the same is true for PC concerns about the console launch. you would have had a txt window and decent ui at least. We also told them that launching on console with the insane cadwells silver and gold idea was a bad one. guess what they didn't listen so now we are seeing console complaints about it to.

Right now there are legitimate concerns that the game is stale for many PC users and we get there trade mark SOON response. It is very telling that SOON tm is now a running joke even among their staff.
also I see many threads about lag in PVP the fact that the difficulty is to easy and many other issues with gameplay and balance.

Guess what they choose to answer on the forums and in eso Live? Either basic things that anyone who has played this for a month or two could answer or a whole segment on there live show about troll poop. In the past day the have repeated the fact that consoles will get leopard and panther mounts which was bloody obvious and already mentioned. If you don't believe me check the forum page called developer discussion have a look there for the last time they actually informed us anything.
Its that bad that last June's road ahead has been necro'd.

Now if you OP and others do not want ZOS to do the same with your console fan base. I say instead of defending them with no real idea of why ppl are annoyed. Take the time to find out and then stand with us when we say we as loyal customers feel that our legitimate concerns are being ignored and we are being treated as cash cows.
If not when ZOS does the same again which they will you will only have yourselves to thank and also a load of PC players with popcorn gifs saying I told you so and welcome to ZOS.
Alternatively we could work together to get a better game, better communication and a better community.

Also a lot of PC players with nothing to do have come to the forums so if your gonna white knight after a week don't be surprised if ppl throw this thread in your face if you ever come here with a problem or concern.

UltimaJoe777 · June 2015

sadownik wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Kaitona wrote: »

I don't think it's as hard as you make it out to be. Granted, I'm not a developer and I don't know anything about writing scripts but it can't be that hard.

Wrong. There is WAY more to it than you think.

So its more complicated that brain surgery? I play MMOs for almost 20 years now and very rarely ive seen such struggle to fixing and changing code.

It's more like programming a robot to act like an actual human being. It's gonna have flaws no matter what you do and every change can have an adverse effect. This is why no update or patch to any game goes perfectly and truthfully they have the players to help them seek out any negative impacts they might have missed so they can fix them. What they apparently usually get instead though are complaints...

What makes you think they are struggling though? It's only been a couple weeks or so since launch so they are still sorting out all the kinks but compared to launch date there have been drastic improvements in playability. It's not the programmers' fault new bugs show up out of nowhere or whenever they do maintenance that's just how things are with any MMORPG. Like you I also have been playing them for many years and I do know how it is but this is the first one I have played on a console so there are likely to be differences compared to PC. If it was the same on PC as it was on console then oh well but at least we have an elder scrolls game we can play interactively with others right? To me that's all that matters.

lathbury · June 2015

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Kaitona wrote: »

I don't think it's as hard as you make it out to be. Granted, I'm not a developer and I don't know anything about writing scripts but it can't be that hard.

Wrong. There is WAY more to it than you think.

So its more complicated that brain surgery? I play MMOs for almost 20 years now and very rarely ive seen such struggle to fixing and changing code.

It's more like programming a robot to act like an actual human being. It's gonna have flaws no matter what you do and every change can have an adverse effect. This is why no update or patch to any game goes perfectly and truthfully they have the players to help them seek out any negative impacts they might have missed so they can fix them. What they apparently usually get instead though are complaints...

What makes you think they are struggling though? It's only been a couple weeks or so since launch so they are still sorting out all the kinks but compared to launch date there have been drastic improvements in playability. It's not the programmers' fault new bugs show up out of nowhere or whenever they do maintenance that's just how things are with any MMORPG. Like you I also have been playing them for many years and I do know how it is but this is the first one I have played on a console so there are likely to be differences compared to PC. If it was the same on PC as it was on console then oh well but at least we have an elder scrolls game we can play interactively with others right? To me that's all that matters.

wipe your mouth

Rylana · June 2015

OP. deleting the function script wouldnt lose the veteran rank data, that would be stored in a database (probably SQL) called by the function

I would also find it highly irregular that backups of any iterations/changes made to a script would not exist that would prevent restoration of the missing lines of code.

Just gotta call you out on this discrepancy.

Kuroinu · June 2015

They should have just named them levels 51-64 or w/e, lol. What will be interesting is if veteran ranks are still around when a level cap increase is implemented. Maybe they'd work on converting veteran rank exp into champion points or something along those lines.

sadownik · June 2015

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Kaitona wrote: »

I don't think it's as hard as you make it out to be. Granted, I'm not a developer and I don't know anything about writing scripts but it can't be that hard.

Wrong. There is WAY more to it than you think.

So its more complicated that brain surgery? I play MMOs for almost 20 years now and very rarely ive seen such struggle to fixing and changing code.

It's more like programming a robot to act like an actual human being. It's gonna have flaws no matter what you do and every change can have an adverse effect. This is why no update or patch to any game goes perfectly and truthfully they have the players to help them seek out any negative impacts they might have missed so they can fix them. What they apparently usually get instead though are complaints...

What makes you think they are struggling though? It's only been a couple weeks or so since launch so they are still sorting out all the kinks but compared to launch date there have been drastic improvements in playability. It's not the programmers' fault new bugs show up out of nowhere or whenever they do maintenance that's just how things are with any MMORPG. Like you I also have been playing them for many years and I do know how it is but this is the first one I have played on a console so there are likely to be differences compared to PC. If it was the same on PC as it was on console then oh well but at least we have an elder scrolls game we can play interactively with others right? To me that's all that matters.

I bought the game in april mate - april 2014

Aeradon · June 2015

lathbury wrote: »

This is my pet peeve console players coming here telling ppl to chill. PC players have a right to be annoyed with the content/communication that we have not received. I mean you do realise right it was November the last time there was anything new to do for us. This when many of is were promised something new every 4-6 weeks when we initially purchased the game. Then we were shown nothing but videos of what look to be finished zones for the next year.

I remember the last time I posted about this back in July 2014, white knights showed up and said those were just player expectations. Look where the game content's at now.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/121852/2-more-days-to-keep-their-schedule-update-3#latest

smokes · June 2015

Enaijo wrote: »

I'm, a programer by myself, think, that the bigger problem is the lack of proper communication. If ZOS really would be honest with the players, would treat them like adults, the forums wouldn't be such a pool of negativity.

But what we get, most of the time, is PR jabber and half-truths.

absolutely.

they're busy making changes and implementing stuff without getting any feedback on those systems that they're implementing until they are in the game.

it would be more sensible to come out with the suggested changes and see what feedback that gets before spending the time doing the coding work.

i fully appreciate the amount of time and effort required to not only make a game, but patch the damn thing too. which is why communication is key. if you make changes without really investigating the potential impact, you'll just end up spending more time fixing things than making new things.

i would love some detail on their plans for phase 4 of the vet rank removal and how it's going to rebalance the game. because if they've not covered all their bases it could turn from bad to worse.

Enaijo · June 2015

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

What makes you think they are struggling though? It's only been a couple weeks or so since launch so they are still sorting out all ...

It's over a year now.

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

t's not the programmers' fault new bugs show up out of nowhere or whenever they do maintenance that's just how things are with any MMORPG.

Sorry, but lol. I'm a programer myself and of course it's the programers fault. Bugs don't come out of nowhere. Maybe they are hard to find/avoid, but every single bug goes back to a programer that made something wrong. If I would go to my boss and say "yeah, you know, it's a bug ... but that's just the way it is, it wasn't my fault", he would send me home and tell me to never come back. As a programer, there is not much that's more important than to learn from your faults and that only works if you admit them.

BuggeX · June 2015

sadownik wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Kaitona wrote: »

I don't think it's as hard as you make it out to be. Granted, I'm not a developer and I don't know anything about writing scripts but it can't be that hard.

Wrong. There is WAY more to it than you think.

So its more complicated that brain surgery? I play MMOs for almost 20 years now and very rarely ive seen such struggle to fixing and changing code.

Depens how the game was coded.

If all Devs, comment there snippet of the Code right there would be no Problem figuring out to wich part this snippet belongs to wich part of the game.

But if just 1 guy, Code like a retarted Person, you can code his snippet on your own aigan and *** arround and tryhard to make it fit aigan without a bug.

UltimaJoe777 · June 2015

sadownik wrote: »

I bought the game in april mate - april 2014

Enaijo wrote: »

It's over a year now.

Not the console version.

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

t's not the programmers' fault new bugs show up out of nowhere or whenever they do maintenance that's just how things are with any MMORPG.

Enaijo wrote: »

Sorry, but lol. I'm a programer myself and of course it's the programers fault. Bugs don't come out of nowhere. Maybe they are hard to find/avoid, but every single bug goes back to a programer that made something wrong. If I would go to my boss and say "yeah, you know, it's a bug ... but that's just the way it is, it wasn't my fault", he would send me home and tell me to never come back. As a programer, there is not much that's more important than to learn from your faults and that only works if you admit them.

You're not the only one that knows how coding works. Sure programmers tend to miss a thing or 2 here and there when they develop code and then they go in and fix it but it's a bit different for games when anything that can go wrong will regardless of how precise a programmer coded it. You can't keep an MMORPG completely bug-free 100% of the time when making updates and patches because as I stated before they are adverse effects of trying to fix things. Also you people spend so much time bashing Zenimax how am I supposed to take what ya'll complain about seriously? As I also said it has only been 2 weeks since CONSOLE release yet you people treat it like it's been out since PC version. A lot was changed for console version before it was even released so give 'em a break already.

Tors · June 2015

Kaitona wrote: »

I don't think it's as hard as you make it out to be. Granted, I'm not a developer and I don't know anything about writing scripts but it can't be that hard.

Really?

Maybe if it was a one man band like the old days of Manic Miner or Jetset Willy.

The moment you have anything that you are working on that affects the work of someone else, you are in a world of pain.

Google ITIL and read about the various process flows that you need to think about.

Dont forget all this complexity is before you code a single character

Cherryblossom · June 2015

OP don't get me wrong, but thats why the company has professionals doing the job and do testing!

Why should we chill, if these professionals seem incapable of making these changes.

sadownik · June 2015

Tors wrote: »

Kaitona wrote: »

I don't think it's as hard as you make it out to be. Granted, I'm not a developer and I don't know anything about writing scripts but it can't be that hard.

Really?

Maybe if it was a one man band like the old days of Manic Miner or Jetset Willy.

The moment you have anything that you are working on that affects the work of someone else, you are in a world of pain.

Google ITIL and read about the various process flows that you need to think about.

Dont forget all this complexity is before you code a single character

So you are saying that ZOS is doing a great job at what they are paid for? Proper coding, proper bug fixing? I can tell you i have no idea how coding works, but i do have idea about company management, problems that occur when that maangaement is incompetent. Im also a vivid player for 26 yeras now (oh boy time flies huh) and i dare to say i am capable of judging the quality of product.

Yorubuke · June 2015

Enaijo wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

What makes you think they are struggling though? It's only been a couple weeks or so since launch so they are still sorting out all ...

It's over a year now.

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

t's not the programmers' fault new bugs show up out of nowhere or whenever they do maintenance that's just how things are with any MMORPG.

Sorry, but lol. I'm a programer myself and of course it's the programers fault. Bugs don't come out of nowhere. Maybe they are hard to find/avoid, but every single bug goes back to a programer that made something wrong. If I would go to my boss and say "yeah, you know, it's a bug ... but that's just the way it is, it wasn't my fault", he would send me home and tell me to never come back. As a programer, there is not much that's more important than to learn from your faults and that only works if you admit them.

good man right here. takes balls to own up for ur mistakes and bigger balls to go fix them. Now if ESO guys would just go do the same stuff and fix the mistakes they made we would all be good to go.

Kaitona · June 2015

I'm not saying it's easy but it's far from hard. There are a lot harder things to work out in life than some game code. As for the PC gamers claiming they have a right to complain, they don't really. The game gives you plenty of value for money in it's vanilla state, anything added to that is just icing on the cake.