Stop treating symptoms

Raizin · June 2015

Fruitdog wrote: »

I agree, get rid of purge. I just want to sit on my siege and one shot people. It's too hard for me to set up another siege and fire it or, god forbid, go down off the wall and snipe them with my bow. Also, can we please get a rapid fire ballista? I need to be able to just hold down the mouse button and nuke everyone.

this dude is correct. i want to be able to nuke all enemiiis!

WRX · June 2015

Farnbula · June 2015

It shouldn't matter how many people are in the area....it should be 100% for everyone. It's an Area of Effect.

Zorgon_The_Revenged · June 2015

Proximity detonation is currently a tool used BY zergs.

You are unable to "bust" the zergs with inevitable detonation because all the lag means you just stand there, mid animation, for 10+ seconds looking like your doing tai chi. If lag isn't present and the spell goes off smoothly, the healer in the zerg just heals them up again.

I have used inevitable detonation to great effect on a group (not a zerg) of low health targets and its almost as funny to watch as soul shatter.

Cathexis · June 2015

I don't know why aoe damage attacks are even a thing, the game would be way, way more fun in PvP if single target damage dominated.

WRX · June 2015

Cathexis wrote: »

I don't know why aoe damage attacks are even a thing, the game would be way, way more fun in PvP if single target damage dominated.

Why do single target when I can siege you?

Pecivilis · June 2015

RedTalon wrote: »

The zerging problem has yet to happen on conlses wait for more people to get the everyday skills we take for granted on pc and start suffering lag problems, and it may get addressed

k2blader wrote: »

Perphection wrote: »

Prabooo wrote: »

real PvP is arenas and dueling... praying for it to happen

I absolutely agree, they need to add these types of features.

Players want to fight other players.

I'd rather see world PvP, such as the Justice System expanding to include PvP (outlaw vs. regulator) in towns. Right now I don't envision the Imperial City Pvp concept going that well unless there's a relatively easy and close respawn point to enter the fray again.

Much like the old school UO days with PKs and PKKs. The problem with this is they would have to reprogram the game to allow all 3 factions in everyzone at once, instead of having 3 different instances of the same zone, unlike now where we only see each other on screen in Cryodiil.

SC0TY999 · June 2015

Perphection wrote: »

The problem is that the Zerg is unchecked.

There are no repercussions, consequences, or deterrents to storming the map in groups of 60+.

This style of play is what's been ruining Open World/RvR/AvA/WvW whatever you choose to call it, PvP in every game as of late.

Sure a majority of the problem is the player-base itself, and the mentality that if beaten by a smaller, skillful, and coordinated group that the solution is to bring a larger group next time opposed to improving on an individual level. But one of the more troubling problems is that game mechanics allow this to happen, and have failed to implement any deterrent to this style of play, in most cases you're rewarded for indulging.

ZOS Failed when they removed AOE caps, because they did it wrong, and they failed with the implementation of the "Zerg Busting" ability Proximity Detonation, because again they did it wrong.

AoE abilities can now hit up to 60 targets; the first 6 will take 100% damage, the next 24 targets will take 50% damage, and the last 30 targets will take 25% damage.

In order for the removal of an AoE cap to be impactful, or in anyway significant, the damage cannot be mitigated based upon the number of players hit. If anything the damage needs to be Directly Proportional to the number of targets hit, not Inversely Proportional. Meaning that as one amount increases another increases at the same rate

Based on the current Aoe Rational - "Zerg Busting" Abilities should have been developed like this:

E.g. Proximity Detonation :
- First 6 will take 100% damage,
- Next 24 targets will take 150% damage,
- Last 30 targets will take 175% damage

*If anything Prox damage should be reduced on single targets, no skill designed to be an AoE should be capable of damage this high.

(The %dmg numbers are arbitrary obviously, and taken from their current model. Point is the damage should scale with the players when using abilities designed to combat zergs.)

That is IF YOUR GOAL IS TO FORCE PLAYERS TO SPREAD OUT.

All other AoE skills, not designed to "Zerg Bust", have done nothing but negatively impact the server since the AoE Cap Removal. The damage mitigation past the first 6 targets is too great warrant the server side calculations which inevitably lead to the infamous slideshow gameplay where greater numbers still prevail. Having 100% of AoE damage would not add additional server stress, but would alleviate it due to players dying/retreating.

If you're going to be testing new Campaign PvP mechanics, please make changes that could actually help treat the root cause and not just tend to the symptoms.

You need to realize that is is.. Player Vs Player.. There are so few who truly care about winning the campaign that re-distributing point accumulation is hardly an incentive.

We want to fight each other, and we don't need a reason to do it. We just need a stable platform, and a PvP team who's willing to make adjustments to their "vision", of what the game should be and what it actually is.

[Moderator Note: Removed names from the title.]

+++++++++

SC0TY999 · June 2015

Cogo wrote: »

You can not be serious. In case you are. Nothing in this thread makes sense.

You need to realize that is is.. Player Vs Player..

You are wrong.
Cyrodiil is War. AvAvA.

I fight to win the campaign for the pact, every 30 days. The same one no matter how we do.

I take it you're one of the mindless zerg monkeys in Thornblade?

SC0TY999 · June 2015

Why not have siege damage increase the more people it hits very similar to the prox det suggestion.

However the amount of damage increase needs to be debated and tested.

SC0TY999 · June 2015

Fruitdog wrote: »

I agree, get rid of purge. I just want to sit on my siege and one shot people. It's too hard for me to set up another siege and fire it or, god forbid, go down off the wall and snipe them with my bow. Also, can we please get a rapid fire ballista? I need to be able to just hold down the mouse button and nuke everyone.

Sometimes I'll have 3 sieges firing on a group it doesn't matter with purge spam you just cannot do the needed damage.

RinaldoGandolphi · June 2015

Perphection wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

80% of the damage siege does comes from DOTS. A Fire Ballista does like 9k on the intial hit, but then DOT ticks for 8.3k per sec for 3 secs...thats nearly 25k worth of damage thats being negated by purge, its no wonder siege can't do what it was designed to do....80% of its damage potential is being negated by an ridiculously cheap spell.

I'll agree with you there 100%, Purge is far too powerful, and much too cheap for the utility it provides.

Yup, but again we come to the crux...either you nerf Purge or you adjust certain Siege DOTS/Effects...Im not sure nerfing purge will do what many think, but at this point, im open to suggestions, they need to do something.

RinaldoGandolphi · June 2015

I know one thing, the way things stand now with siege, i'll never defend another keep or outpost with siege in its current state. its absolutely pointless with the current Siege and Purge spam.

I watched an Oil Catapault, a Meatbag, a Cold Fire Ballista, and a Fire Treb all hit a 24 man group at the same time while having 6 oils poured on them from above and not a single person died as they marched right through and zerged everything.

Since its obvious pvp mechanics are purposely designed to help zergblobs and screw outnumbered forces, I don't think i should waste time and get frustrated over the futility of trying to defned a keep with useless tools.

Its absolute nonsense that poor decision making is rewarded in this game.(charging a breech with oil and heavy siege fire on it) Its nonsense that my 7 light armor wearing self can survive a direct hit from a Cold Fire Ballista, yet be 1 shotted with Wrecking Blow from stealth....its a poor state of affairs when Wrecking Blow does more damage then a piece of field artillery and is a better option in everyway to kill someone. Its nonsense a cheap spell like Purge renders field artillery useless.

I can't think of a single good reason to even bother with a keep defense anymore, not one...even superior tactical siege placement simply don't matter,. just zerg in spam Purge, Steel Tornado, be immune to everything else with Meteor spam...i'd rather watch paint dry.

its obvious pvp mechanics are purposely designed to help zergblobs and screw outnumbered forces, I simply won't waste my time with that garbage. i'll find fighting elsewhere. Continue to zerg, folks do so at their own deteriment...there is a reason people are leaving the game and its because of zerging...one of these days folks will figure it out, by then though, the game will probably be dead.

Ryuho · June 2015

Gonna quo myself, from similar topic where I proposed:

- 1.8s cast time to purge, like detonation
- purge cap - 6 players max, not entire raid
- move purge to rank 7 alliance war, to prevent ppls whos joined spam it, revealing flare to rank 4
- keep balistas/trebu dots purgable
- remove certain skills stacking - like caltrops/healing springs.. If som1 use new healing springs, overwrite alrdy placed springs by som1, same with caltrops.. seriously it makes a lot of lag
- bring back mercenaries - with 15-20k AP cost
- buff detonation, dmg increased on low HP targets by 300% - like finisher
- buff sieges wpn dmg on low HP targets by 300%

RinaldoGandolphi · June 2015

Ryuho wrote: »

Gonna quo myself, from similar topic where I proposed:

- 1.8s cast time to purge, like detonation
- purge cap - 6 players max, not entire raid
- move purge to rank 7 alliance war, to prevent ppls whos joined spam it, revealing flare to rank 4
- keep balistas/trebu dots purgable
- remove certain skills stacking - like caltrops/healing springs.. If som1 use new healing springs, overwrite alrdy placed springs by som1, same with caltrops.. seriously it makes a lot of lag
- bring back mercenaries - with 15-20k AP cost
- buff detonation, dmg increased on low HP targets by 300% - like finisher
- buff sieges wpn dmg on low HP targets by 300%

This is a good start as well.

Lorkhan · June 2015

Raizin wrote: »

Fruitdog wrote: »

I agree, get rid of purge. I just want to sit on my siege and one shot people. It's too hard for me to set up another siege and fire it or, god forbid, go down off the wall and snipe them with my bow. Also, can we please get a rapid fire ballista? I need to be able to just hold down the mouse button and nuke everyone.

this dude is correct. i want to be able to nuke all enemiiis!

nerf teamspeak!!!

***-dancing.gif

AhPook_Is_Here · June 2015

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Perphection wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

Something should scale better when used against large groups than when it is used by them.

The proposal to make Magicka Detonation scale upwards with the number of targets affected is a good candidate. Even then, it will be used by large groups against other large groups, but it would at least give small groups a chance against blobs.

It might be easier to change the rulesets, though, to encourage folks to spread out. At least one of the new campaigns will focus on holding resources. That's an interesting experiment. So are some of the others. Laboratories of Muderocracy

Collision. then a blob can't move together quickly or orderly. Also make friendly players between you and your target block your outgoing damage to hostile targets. I don't think this game has the resources for that kind of messaging but that's the way to actually fix blobs. These 2 things would make blobbing useless and formations useful, and you don't need to hand out a button so 2 v 40 can win half the time.

Yeah, I doubt this game could handle collision, Warhammer collision was fun and made for some absolutely crazy scenarios but again, probably not a solution for ESO.

Perhaps this is where you and I differ though, is in the appropriate size of a group.

I personally don't believe a group of 40 should EVER be standing together at one time and be susceptible to a gank-style bomb you're describing.

Groups are currently capped at 24. If you hit a full group with a Prox, it should do reasonable damage but not insane. That's where the damage would have to be reworked. Just an idea as to my thoughts so maybe you can understand. Let's say they reduce damage of Prox det to 50% of it's current value vs a 24 man group, but beyond 24 is where it begins to scale. Again, arbitrary numbers that would need testing, but I feel like you need an idea of where I'm coming from.

But I believe that if you hit a group of 60, 80, 120 you should absolutely crush them. Not because that gameplay is terrible, not because I don't believe in large scale combat, but because the game simply cannot handle that style of play.

I don't have any convictions as to how many people may stand together; there is no min/max number in my mind. The group I play with ranges from 8 to 24 when running, and sometimes I just derp around by myself. I don't think the solution is to provide a minority group with a control solution to a majority group.

The problem is there are no caveats for making the most complex Venn diagram you can out of your stack of humans that can stand inside each other and be as effective as if they were free to move their arms. The game itself has huge gaps in what we consider common sense, very silly if you take a moment to think about it. Think about counter-strike if players could set off grenades without friendly fire or self damage from it going off in their hands, and set grenades off in their own hands solely to harm only enemies next to them with smart shrapnel. As long as a infinite number of angels can stand on the head of a pin and and set off grenades in their hands to hurt only devils around them, that's what you are going to get, silly. Then when one argues about silly and tries to fix silly while embracing the core premises of silly; all you can get out of it is silly.

Without collision you can still adjust this problem by causing a damage reducing debuff if a friendly player is within x meters of another and have the debuff stack the more people are stacked to a point where they can't do anything but pogo. This addresses the problem without giving one player the ability to solo a full stack with a single button. It won't stop the game from being silly, but it might encourage stacks to spread out.

People are getting way too complex in how they want to make pain trains disperse.

Your solution to 'I want people to spread out to lower server calculations to reduce lag' is to add another server calculation (constantly checking positioning of players in a game that already has extreme troubles with that -- see the fall damage issues) which will cause yet more lag.

No, that's now what you want.

What you want is to remove a calculation entirely.

Change AE so there's no random dropoff of damage to players hit beyond the first 6. The non-removal of AOE caps is your culprit there, as well as that every AE checks LoS twice (as Wheeler said, this will be addressed). Removing this random check for every single AOE in an area where large groups are fighting would take weight off the servers AND encourage people to pull out of the stack.

Simple solutions are the best solutions.

I don't think my suggestion is a complex solution, in fact it could be done client side, and would work better that way, with minimal additional server communication (debuff value x). I'm addressing the OP's concern that there is nothing to check large groups, and the fact that small groups have a disproportionate disadvantage. The OP suggested giving small groups an "I win" button against larger groups and that's obviously not an idea that can work for many reasons starting with appreciating the value of team work.

Removing AOE caps doesn't address the OP's issue at all. While it is true a small group might not be able to hit every target in a large group for the same average damage due to the caps while the large group can, removing the caps has no net positive on the small group. Simple math explains this well. A group 40 people, average damage per person 4k/s @ axis, 25% healers healing 3k/s. B group 20 people, same averages. A group will do 160k dps and 120k hps, B group will do 80k dps and 60k hps at axis of their Venn diagram. You can carry the math out in duration of a fight, but the larger group will have the same statistical ratio of advantage in any fight that doesn't involve maneuvering the axis.

The OP is looking for a solution that doesn't revolve around groups fighting for a superior concentration of players at an axis, but a reason for more diffuse combat creating less predictable outcomes. If you have an idea to address that I wouldn't mind hearing it.

Torquebow · June 2015

Prabooo wrote: »

real PvP is arenas and dueling... praying for it to happen

1v1 is not real pvp, I agree that small scale is a greater show of coordination and actual player skill. But no game is balanced around 1v1, at least that I can think of.

And by small scale, I mean 3v3, 8v8, 10v10 etc. Dueling is for testing builds, and practicing against other classes.

TheBull · June 2015

#NerfPurge

Rune_Relic · June 2015

Increase damage = Increase damage mitigation = Increase group size = more lag.
20 healers heal a lot better than 10 healers...especially with smart heals to ensure the most critical player never dies.
All you are doing asking for more damage is being sucked into an arms race that no one wins.

Before we had 6 targets and the lag was bad.
Then we had 50 targets and the lag was orders of magnitude worse.
The logic (and reality of what happened) seems obvious to me.

Only way to destroy the zerg is to stun it en-masse.
Stunned players do 0 damage and 0 damage = 0 combat calcs and 0 lag.

We use flashbangs for a reason.
Think about it.

Now that take worst case scenario...STUN SPAM.
A stun bomb has limited radius where those that are spread out evade it and those that are blobbed get hit hard.
There is no damage escalation here.
There is only the ability to use your existing damage more effectively by disabling mitigation.

AhPook_Is_Here · June 2015

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

I know one thing, the way things stand now with siege, i'll never defend another keep or outpost with siege in its current state. its absolutely pointless with the current Siege and Purge spam.

I watched an Oil Catapault, a Meatbag, a Cold Fire Ballista, and a Fire Treb all hit a 24 man group at the same time while having 6 oils poured on them from above and not a single person died as they marched right through and zerged everything.

Since its obvious pvp mechanics are purposely designed to help zergblobs and screw outnumbered forces, I don't think i should waste time and get frustrated over the futility of trying to defned a keep with useless tools.

Its absolute nonsense that poor decision making is rewarded in this game.(charging a breech with oil and heavy siege fire on it) Its nonsense that my 7 light armor wearing self can survive a direct hit from a Cold Fire Ballista, yet be 1 shotted with Wrecking Blow from stealth....its a poor state of affairs when Wrecking Blow does more damage then a piece of field artillery and is a better option in everyway to kill someone. Its nonsense a cheap spell like Purge renders field artillery useless.

I can't think of a single good reason to even bother with a keep defense anymore, not one...even superior tactical siege placement simply don't matter,. just zerg in spam Purge, Steel Tornado, be immune to everything else with Meteor spam...i'd rather watch paint dry.

its obvious pvp mechanics are purposely designed to help zergblobs and screw outnumbered forces, I simply won't waste my time with that garbage. i'll find fighting elsewhere. Continue to zerg, folks do so at their own deteriment...there is a reason people are leaving the game and its because of zerging...one of these days folks will figure it out, by then though, the game will probably be dead.

The wrecking blow thing could be fixed easily by making the activation take you out of stealth rather than the impact. All you can assume is that ZoS wants 35k openers and if you aren't in stealth and doing them, well, you are doing it wrong.

Snit · June 2015

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

Something should scale better when used against large groups than when it is used by them.

The proposal to make Magicka Detonation scale upwards with the number of targets affected is a good candidate. Even then, it will be used by large groups against other large groups, but it would at least give small groups a chance against blobs.

It might be easier to change the rulesets, though, to encourage folks to spread out. At least one of the new campaigns will focus on holding resources. That's an interesting experiment. So are some of the others. Laboratories of Muderocracy

Collision...

Collision would be awesome. However, my layman's understanding of server technology tells me it might melt those servers into angry pools of magma. I think that's what killed Warhammer, right from launch.

Tankqull · June 2015

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

Something should scale better when used against large groups than when it is used by them.

The proposal to make Magicka Detonation scale upwards with the number of targets affected is a good candidate. Even then, it will be used by large groups against other large groups, but it would at least give small groups a chance against blobs.

It might be easier to change the rulesets, though, to encourage folks to spread out. At least one of the new campaigns will focus on holding resources. That's an interesting experiment. So are some of the others. Laboratories of Muderocracy

Collision. then a blob can't move together quickly or orderly. Also make friendly players between you and your target block your outgoing damage to hostile targets. I don't think this game has the resources for that kind of messaging but that's the way to actually fix blobs. These 2 things would make blobbing useless and formations useful, and you don't need to hand out a button so 2 v 40 can win half the time.

any kiind of collision detection (wich is the hihgest possible computation volume a game can create) doesent work in MMOs unless their server park contains severel times the tianhe-2 or other alike supercomputers

AhPook_Is_Here · June 2015

Snit wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

Something should scale better when used against large groups than when it is used by them.

The proposal to make Magicka Detonation scale upwards with the number of targets affected is a good candidate. Even then, it will be used by large groups against other large groups, but it would at least give small groups a chance against blobs.

It might be easier to change the rulesets, though, to encourage folks to spread out. At least one of the new campaigns will focus on holding resources. That's an interesting experiment. So are some of the others. Laboratories of Muderocracy

Collision...

Collision would be awesome. However, my layman's understanding of server technology tells me it might melt those servers into angry pools of magma. I think that's what killed Warhammer, right from launch.

I played Warhammer. At launch they didn't have collision as they couldn't deliver it. A few months in they did add it, and it did create a lot of lag though calculations and additional messaging. They did iron out those issues a month or two after that. I don't know if ZoS is competent enough to do that, their track-record says no, but one shouldn't expect less than a high quality product for one's money, in my opinion. Further, you see a lot of people writing it off as impossible, (not referring to you) and I think as a consumer it is a disservice to ourselves to not expect more from the whole industry on these sorts of things than what they are offering. Our write-offs provide them with the excuses they need to under-perform.

Khyras · June 2015

So,siege buff actually helped zergs ha? If only there were some smart players who said so immediately after that crap was implemented...

Valnas · June 2015

Khyras wrote: »

So,siege buff actually helped zergs ha? If only there were some smart players who said so immediately after that crap was implemented...

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/159158/why-the-siege-changes-are-a-nightmare-in-disguise

actually we tried to yell and shoultthis prior and during implementation. ZoS prefer's to guess and check rather than research then implement.

Morvul · June 2015

while the OPs tone seems unneccesarily agressive - I completly agree with their factual statements and conclusions

Perphection · June 2015

Morvul wrote: »

while the OPs tone seems unneccesarily agressive - I completly agree with their factual statements and conclusions

Sorry, I was trying to be intentionally aggressive.

I think it was more frustration than it was aggression. Having seen so many of my friends/guild mates/acquaintances quit due to the lack of attention PvP has gotten adds up.

SkylarkAU · June 2015

Zergs weren't such a big deal when campaign populations were balanced, heck it was downright exciting when one force of 60 players would collide with another of the same size. I'm worried if all the focus goes in to breaking down the sizes of groups then pvp will lose something that makes it so special.. but it doesn't seem like people want to think beyond the immediate issue and so the cycle of problem solution problem is destined to continue.

TLDR; As far as i'm concerned the zerg problem is itself a symptom.

Perphection · June 2015

SkylarkAU wrote: »

Zergs weren't such a big deal when campaign populations were balanced, heck it was downright exciting when one force of 60 players would collide with another of the same size. I'm worried if all the focus goes in to breaking down the sizes of groups then pvp will lose something that makes it so special.. but it doesn't seem like people want to think beyond the immediate issue and so the cycle of problem solution problem is destined to continue.

TLDR; As far as i'm concerned the zerg problem is itself a symptom.

A lot of the population imbalance revolves around the fact that players quit due to the lag, which was caused by the zergs.

**Also the lighting patch of 2014 RIP half the PvP population!