PVP Update, June 2015

Zyle · June 2015

Crown wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

It makes being the Emperor more valuable. You only get the benefit while you are Emperor and keeping the throne lets you keep the perks. I think this will make getting Emperor more than a notch on the belt, if even by a little, and makes it more attractive to maintain and re-attain the position.

@Soul_Demon I agree with Comment #534. Here's more on that topic:

Emperor is not more valuable. It's the same people from Yellow and Red who will cycle Emperors (I don't know the Blue groups well enough to comment on them). The AP farming individuals and groups will still maintain the top 50 ish people on the leader boards, and you'll still have the top person drop for the next once they've had a turn on a 30 day campaign. On a 7 day campaign, you'll have one person (whoever the group wants as Emperor) being given a tick (commonly called Moon Die tick) at the start of the campaign whereby everyone else in the group runs out of tick range to increase the tick for said person - thus assuring their top slot on the board.

What this does is limit who is going to be Emperor and reduce the likelihood that more people will get it. If being Emperor does not unlock passives or *something* lasting, there's no incentive for the top people to allow others to get it. I envision the top person(s) saying, "you only get a colour and a title, I'm not stopping to play or dropping to let you have it". In this case, the person with the most powerful build and most damage should remain Emperor as much as possible in order to ensure that his/her group makes as much AP as possible.

When someone gets Emperor, it's almost always someone who is part of two or three guilds on each side. These are the guilds whose groups make the most AP (farming). You can tell by the Alliance Rank of many of the people in said groups. The Emperor group then farms all the other factions until he/she is dethroned. The Emperor group is sometimes wiped, though statistically they win more than 70% of the time (I keep track of most fights and enjoy statistics) if the odds against them are not more than 2 to 1.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler please consider this - if there is no value in passives (however small), you will not get new Emperors. The people in the top slots need incentive to allow others to pass them on the leader board (other than boredom or having something in real life take more time). Yesterday on Azuras, had Yellow been able to crown an Emperor (I was/am top of the board), I would have dropped at the last second for Thukia. I've run with him for months, he's a good player, a very nice person, and has never been Emperor. As it stands, I believe that he deserves a chance for it and to unlock the passives. If there were no passives, then for the 7th? 8th? (I don't remember any more) time I would have become the insanely powerful tornado of death and only been dethroned when red came with 80+ people and lagged out flags (same way they crowned their own Emperor yesterday evening).

I'm insanely confused on your stance. You guys are rotating leaderboards on Azuras on purpose to crown emp...emp farming. In fact, AT THIS MOMENT, an ad guild is about to pvdoor crown YOU emp. You guys are part of the problem by doing that nonsense. DC on Azuras are desperately trying to get emp, in fact 9/10 people on the leaderboard, have never had emp, where almost EVERY person on the AD/EP leaderboards have had emp, if not multiple times.

I'm not gonna sit here and take your comments seriously when you are part of the direct problem.

Publius_Scipio · June 2015

Maybe AP farming needs to be looked at also. That would change things around in PvP I would think. Like it's been mentioned in earlier posts, the chosen one and his/her group attack or defend and then the group runs away and that one person sucks up all the AP (the guilds were slick when they figured that out). Maybe there can be a way that even if players "run away" AP is still earned for having been there and one person doesn't suck it all up?

Something done with how AP works I would think would change player habits in Cyrodiil.

Publius_Scipio · June 2015

Ryuho wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Being emperor was designed to be special and a great achievement. Having former emperor buffs was a terrible idea from the outset. Why would you have residual powers from emperorship? You aren't emperor anymore. Removing these ridiculous buffs restores the true meaning of the title of emperor. All the players that no longer have an incentive to become emperor because there aren't any buffs to chase, good, don't invest time in chasing emperor title if you don't feel like it..

Well Prophet wasn't emperor anymore, but he still had his "emperor powers".. So why players should not have this powers as former emperors?

He has former emperor powers? Or he had powers from reading the Elder Scrolls?

Zyle · June 2015

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Ryuho wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Being emperor was designed to be special and a great achievement. Having former emperor buffs was a terrible idea from the outset. Why would you have residual powers from emperorship? You aren't emperor anymore. Removing these ridiculous buffs restores the true meaning of the title of emperor. All the players that no longer have an incentive to become emperor because there aren't any buffs to chase, good, don't invest time in chasing emperor title if you don't feel like it..

Well Prophet wasn't emperor anymore, but he still had his "emperor powers".. So why players should not have this powers as former emperors?

He has former emperor powers? Or he had powers from reading the Elder Scrolls?

Neither! Biceps!

Draxys · June 2015

bchulettub17_ESO wrote: »

Notice how it's former emp's whinging about the buff removal. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

I've never been emp and I disagree with taking them out.

I think a great middle ground is having the former emp bonus work as a part of the battle spirit buff that works only in Cyrodiil, or maybe find another way to make it work only in Cyrodiil but exclude the delves.

Zyle · June 2015

Draxys wrote: »

bchulettub17_ESO wrote: »

Notice how it's former emp's whinging about the buff removal. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

I've never been emp and I disagree with taking them out.

I think a great middle ground is having the former emp bonus work as a part of the battle spirit buff that works only in Cyrodiil, or maybe find another way to make it work only in Cyrodiil but exclude the delves.

Sorry I'll correct myself then.

Notice how it's mostly former emp's whinging about the buff removal. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

Publius_Scipio · June 2015

bchulettub17_ESO wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Ryuho wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Being emperor was designed to be special and a great achievement. Having former emperor buffs was a terrible idea from the outset. Why would you have residual powers from emperorship? You aren't emperor anymore. Removing these ridiculous buffs restores the true meaning of the title of emperor. All the players that no longer have an incentive to become emperor because there aren't any buffs to chase, good, don't invest time in chasing emperor title if you don't feel like it..

Well Prophet wasn't emperor anymore, but he still had his "emperor powers".. So why players should not have this powers as former emperors?

He has former emperor powers? Or he had powers from reading the Elder Scrolls?

Neither! Biceps!

Yes! True!!!

Snit · June 2015

Ffastyl wrote: »

Travel to Player is how those 50+ zergs get around to lag out your campaigns.

Guest servers also play a role. There are only a few veteran campaigns, and the total is more likely to shrink than to grow.

Campaign-hopping zergs will persist.

Davenaro · June 2015

WHEELER! make Alliance rank account wide plzz

Takllin · June 2015

Crown wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We know that Emperor Farming, or more accurately Former Emp Farming, is a behavior that was\is detrimental to the health of PVP. We are doing this change to get back to the original intent of Emperorship where that PVP player is a powerful ally for their Alliance while fighting in Cyrodiil, not because they have a Former Emperor 2% buff to help with grinding.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler I've still not heard justification how removing the Former Emperor buff will change peoples' attitudes and activities in PvP. A number of my peers have doctorates in psychology or sociology (my PH.D. is in a related field) and player attitude is something we often discuss. The only thing you'll be doing is placating the people who have not had and never will have the Former Emperor title such that they won't feel inferior. 2% to stats will not significantly affect a person's likelihood to win or lose in a fight. You've already stated how you're removing PvP buffs outside Cyrodill (which I agree with), so let the Former Emperors have a character effect/buff only within Cyrodiil.

If grinding with 2% extra resource regeneration is a big concern to you, then change delves such that they are outside of PvP - problem solved. Emperors who are bored tend to head into Cracked Wood cave to grind champion points already.

If you have a study on MMO player behaviour (two of my colleagues are working on their theses {plural of thesis - I had to look that up} in this particular field) that supports your intended activity, then we would love to read it. If not, we strongly believe that you will not accomplish anything other than to upset the top tier of players who worked very hard for their Former Emperor status.

Sorry I'm confused, are you trying to attribute the former Emp passives to all players attitudes and activities in PvP, or just the Emperor Farming/Trading? If you are referring to the latter than I think it's rather obvious. Why did people Emperor trade and why do people continue to Emperor Farm? For the passives so that they can min/max their build. The title and dye color are secondary rewards for the majority of people. So if you take out the main reason that people Emperor farm/trade, it will greatly reduce the amount of people whom do this and is a lot less likely to happen on the console.

It's not about people feeling inferior, it is about those who have, continue to, and could in the future abuse the Emperor system to get the passives. The point of Emperor is for the person to help their faction with the map and dominate, not to help their buddies AP farm and pass it around like a hookah so everyone gets a chance. Obviously opinions differ and you can't make the emperor help the map/their faction, but they will soon find that they will not have much if any support behind them if they betray the wishes of the rest of their faction.

Personally I'd much rather have a good Emperor who will help the faction and map control than to pass it around for the passives.

Takllin · June 2015

Snit wrote: »

Ffastyl wrote: »

Travel to Player is how those 50+ zergs get around to lag out your campaigns.

Guest servers also play a role. There are only a few veteran campaigns, and the total is more likely to shrink than to grow.

Campaign-hopping zergs will persist.

Yeah but it becomes harder to do now.

Davenaro wrote: »

WHEELER! make Alliance rank account wide plzz

I haven't seen this requested much, but please. For those of us that rerolled to new factions and like to play multiple characters, it really blows having to completely start over each time with your Alliance Rank.

pmn100b16_ESO · June 2015

This sounds great.

Question, why wasn't this figured out and done 10 months ago before 90% of your pvpers left?

FENGRUSH · June 2015

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

This sounds great.

Question, why wasn't this figured out and done 10 months ago before 90% of your pvpers left?

They were busy implementing AOE caps then in order to drastically decrease the amount of players on server.

Crown · June 2015

Rune_Relic wrote: »

If 2% is not a big deal you wont miss it.
But I guess if it wasn't a big deal none of you would be complaining.
So you have admitted it is a big deal from the ferocity of the feedback.
Thou doth protesteth too much!
If 2% is a big deal it needs to go as it creates an uneven playing field.
Only emperors were supposed to receive such buffs.
So either way it needs to go.

I don't care about the 2%. It doesn't make a difference.
What I care about is them taking something away from me that I've worked hard to get.
In my previous comments I've mentioned the 5% ult cost reduction - which to me makes a difference, and the extra 2% siege damage which makes no difference at all other than a feel-good reminder of how good I felt the first time I achieved Emperor.

Here's my first ever crowing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhWJNOYASLA

Every time I hit a wall for that extra 40 damage (walls have 200k + so 40 damage is nothing in the big picture) it reminds me of the feeling I had in the last few seconds of the video.

Swarog · June 2015

I become emperor in fair play. Why I should loose my bufs?

Juraigr · June 2015

hmmm well thats disappointing Zenimax, kinda held a torch for eso. Epic fail is Epic

Valnas · June 2015

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Even if the Former Emperor bonuses would amount to 0,0000000001% cheaper Ultimates, it would still force tryhards to farm for it. It's not the values of the buffs that matter, it's the fact that they exist in the first place. The only option is to remove them.

so we should remove champ points and vet levels correct ? How many people used "overpowered" craglorn/cave/skyreach/spider/snake grinds to gain outrageous character bonus's. Can we just restart at lvl 1 as well.

the only option is removal for balance.

51sDVR36c7L._SX355_.jpg

FENGRUSH · June 2015

Valnas wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Even if the Former Emperor bonuses would amount to 0,0000000001% cheaper Ultimates, it would still force tryhards to farm for it. It's not the values of the buffs that matter, it's the fact that they exist in the first place. The only option is to remove them.

so we should remove champ points and vet levels correct ? How many people used "overpowered" craglorn/cave/skyreach grinds to gain outrageous character bonus's. Can we just restart at lvl 1 as well.

the only option is removal for balance.

Looks good, put it in!

Sanct16 · June 2015

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Even if the Former Emperor bonuses would amount to 0,0000000001% cheaper Ultimates, it would still force tryhards to farm for it. It's not the values of the buffs that matter, it's the fact that they exist in the first place. The only option is to remove them.

Then remove Undaunted passives + Champion Points aswell.

Lava_Croft · June 2015

Sanct16 wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Even if the Former Emperor bonuses would amount to 0,0000000001% cheaper Ultimates, it would still force tryhards to farm for it. It's not the values of the buffs that matter, it's the fact that they exist in the first place. The only option is to remove them.

Then remove Undaunted passives + Champion Points aswell.

Neither of those are related to Emperor farming/trading, but thanks for letting the thread know that you just don't get it.

bugmom · June 2015

Mostly this sounds good but I do have an ask regarding AoE's and synergies. Some guilds work hard on running their raid groups in very structured ways and enjoy the "high performing team" aspect of playing that style. AoE's and synergies are used because those skills encourage the team to work together. I'm not talking about a 60 man zerg but a full raid group where the team wants to work on having specific roles, assigned skills and tasks - that sort of thing versus running a raid group that is no more than a herd of cats. For those of us that prefer that play style, please keep skills/synergies that encourage organized, structured, teaming - not exploits, not lagsploits, but structured teaming.

Snit · June 2015

Sanct16 wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Even if the Former Emperor bonuses would amount to 0,0000000001% cheaper Ultimates, it would still force tryhards to farm for it. It's not the values of the buffs that matter, it's the fact that they exist in the first place. The only option is to remove them.

Then remove Undaunted passives + Champion Points aswell.

The undaunted passives incent people to go do undaunted dungeons. CP's incent people to play a lot. Those are both in the category of "stuff ZOS wants us to do."

They don't want us to call forth a map-distorting multizerg, including folks guesting (or currently traveling-to-player) whenever somebody popular has a new alt that needs permanent buffs, or a PvP guild gains a new member. All the more so, as some portion (not all, but some) of those end up engaged in less-than-savory practices to speed the process.

If you want to keep the former emp buffs, I think you have to establish the following: The behaviors associated with people farming that buff are, on balance, likely to make PvP more fun for all the players involved. ZOS has concluded they don't. "I put in a lot of work" won't win the day for you, when they're evidently looking at the health of PvP as a whole. That's what you need to argue.

That's my opinion, anyway. WTHeck do I know?

MrGhosty · June 2015

It's a shame that those who truly earned their buffs will lose them, but getting rid of them altogether seems to be the only way to handle the problem. I've come to realize that in a Multiplayer game, anytime that I see something that is quite nice or grants any sort of advantage to not bother trying for it as it happens, without fail, people will take advantage of the system.

These changes could possibly change things for the better and I look forward to seeing what happens because of them.

themdogesbite · June 2015

Snit wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Even if the Former Emperor bonuses would amount to 0,0000000001% cheaper Ultimates, it would still force tryhards to farm for it. It's not the values of the buffs that matter, it's the fact that they exist in the first place. The only option is to remove them.

Then remove Undaunted passives + Champion Points aswell.

The undaunted passives incent people to go do undaunted dungeons. CP's incent people to play a lot. Those are both in the category of "stuff ZOS wants us to do."

They don't want us to call forth a map-distorting multizerg, including folks guesting (or currently traveling-to-player) whenever somebody popular has a new alt that needs permanent buffs, or a PvP guild gains a new member. All the more so, as some portion (not all, but some) of those end up engaged in less-than-savory practices to speed the process.

If you want to keep the former emp buffs, I think you have to establish the following: The behaviors associated with people farming that buff are, on balance, likely to make PvP more fun for all the players involved. ZOS has concluded they don't. "I put in a lot of work" won't win the day for you, when they're evidently looking at the health of PvP as a whole. That's what you need to argue.

That's my opinion, anyway. WTHeck do I know?

[snip]

I fought hard for my emperorship, but i dont care if my buffs get removed, never though they made much sense in the first place.

[edited for bashing]

Valnas · June 2015

when servers had the populations to defend them we didn't need to socially architect pvp. maybe find a way to get people into cyrodiil, and have it run at <200 pings first.

Do you think that these changes will prevent ambitious guilds from holding emp on azuras, and a 7 day of their choice permanently? Cause that's what they seem to spell out. No more emps for anyone but the largest, 'farmiest' guilds. since there is no incentive to let new people get it now ? is this the intent?

Zhoyzu · June 2015

WHEN!!!!

i want to play this game but for the reasons being addressed i cannot!

Im worried about those queue times now. If all the campaigns are the same there is no issue as you can move to one without a 2 hour queue. But if the scoring is all different from one to the next i forsee some issues in regards to queue times.

Pecivilis · June 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

[*] Battle Leveling: The Battle Leveling system has been updated to include Veteran Ranks. Players that opt into Battle Leveling will be roughly equivalent in power to a VR14 player in moderate-quality gear.
[*] Elder Scrolls & Gates: A fix is in the works that will prevent enemy player characters from getting through the Elder Scroll Gates while the gates are closed. (Gate jumpers beware. Your days are numbered.) Also, a new protective barrier will now surround the Elder Scrolls while in their temples, if the Elder Scroll Gates are closed. This barrier will drop if the gate opens.
[/list]

I am for all of it except these two things, and let me explain why.

First I will start with the Scrolls and Gates, I concede that Gate jumpers (those with the ability [ DKs and NBS] to target and selectively jump to Guards standing on top of the gates thus allowing them access behind) are a problem and exploiting certain game mechanics and need to be stopped.

However, the barrier around the scrolls while the games are closed give me pause for concern because it nixes a well oiled strategy that has proven effective for under-populated factions to still grab scrolls...what I am talking about is this : Somehow your Faction manages to open a gate and try to storm the temple, however you quickly get out numbered and beaten back and or wiped...however a few intrepid players sneak off behind enemy lines and wait, patiently for the opportune moment to strike again, usually after things have calmed and the gate is closed. In my eyes this isn't an exploit, this is a valid time honored tactic.. this is strategy and espionage at it's finest....the same as hiding in a keep after a wipe to be an annoying *** and play the flute in a taunting manner whilst the enemy looks for you.

That's just my opinion on the matter.

But I have a very salty gripe with this newest Buff to battle leveling...this is babying and catering to newbies and casuals at it's finest...and quite honestly a hunk of bollocks....[snip]

However, to me this is same same time of "everyone gets a trophy, everyone should be equal" *** mentality that the world has now. Not everyone gets a trophy, not everyone is equal and giving these players a crutch like this is a smack to the real VR14s....PvP by nature is a competitive thing, and the only way to get good at it is working at it, not being coddled and handed major buffs like that automatically put you on even footing with most of the vr14s out there.

/rant

[edited for baiting]

Manoekin · June 2015

Snit wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Even if the Former Emperor bonuses would amount to 0,0000000001% cheaper Ultimates, it would still force tryhards to farm for it. It's not the values of the buffs that matter, it's the fact that they exist in the first place. The only option is to remove them.

Then remove Undaunted passives + Champion Points aswell.

The undaunted passives incent people to go do undaunted dungeons. CP's incent people to play a lot. Those are both in the category of "stuff ZOS wants us to do."

They don't want us to call forth a map-distorting multizerg, including folks guesting (or currently traveling-to-player) whenever somebody popular has a new alt that needs permanent buffs, or a PvP guild gains a new member. All the more so, as some portion (not all, but some) of those end up engaged in less-than-savory practices to speed the process.

If you want to keep the former emp buffs, I think you have to establish the following: The behaviors associated with people farming that buff are, on balance, likely to make PvP more fun for all the players involved. ZOS has concluded they don't. "I put in a lot of work" won't win the day for you, when they're evidently looking at the health of PvP as a whole. That's what you need to argue.

That's my opinion, anyway. WTHeck do I know?

I think they fall more under the "I feel like I have to do this in order to be competitive" topic, which is where I'd put former emp at currently. That was the point the posters were trying to make. There is nothing about former emp bonuses right now that hurts the game. The only reason it came about was because ZOS had too many campaigns and didn't actively watch them, or didn't reduce the number of campaigns earlier on because they thought it made pvp look more alive somehow. This is not currently a problem. It will not be a problem on console as long as ZOS does their job.

Rune_Relic · June 2015

Crown wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

If 2% is not a big deal you wont miss it.
But I guess if it wasn't a big deal none of you would be complaining.
So you have admitted it is a big deal from the ferocity of the feedback.
Thou doth protesteth too much!
If 2% is a big deal it needs to go as it creates an uneven playing field.
Only emperors were supposed to receive such buffs.
So either way it needs to go.

I don't care about the 2%. It doesn't make a difference.
What I care about is them taking something away from me that I've worked hard to get.
In my previous comments I've mentioned the 5% ult cost reduction - which to me makes a difference, and the extra 2% siege damage which makes no difference at all other than a feel-good reminder of how good I felt the first time I achieved Emperor.

Here's my first ever crowing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhWJNOYASLA

Every time I hit a wall for that extra 40 damage (walls have 200k + so 40 damage is nothing in the big picture) it reminds me of the feeling I had in the last few seconds of the video.

So it does give you a distinct advantage you don't want to lose ...even though you are no longer emperor.
That's OK..you're sore ..I get it.
Still doesn't make ex emperor passives right as it encourages emp farming.
And there is only emp farming because of these passives.

All we need to do now is remove CP from cyrodiil too.

Garion · June 2015

Pecivilis wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

[*] Battle Leveling: The Battle Leveling system has been updated to include Veteran Ranks. Players that opt into Battle Leveling will be roughly equivalent in power to a VR14 player in moderate-quality gear.
[*] Elder Scrolls & Gates: A fix is in the works that will prevent enemy player characters from getting through the Elder Scroll Gates while the gates are closed. (Gate jumpers beware. Your days are numbered.) Also, a new protective barrier will now surround the Elder Scrolls while in their temples, if the Elder Scroll Gates are closed. This barrier will drop if the gate opens.
[/list]

I am for all of it except these two things, and let me explain why.

First I will start with the Scrolls and Gates, I concede that Gate jumpers (those with the ability [ DKs and NBS] to target and selectively jump to Guards standing on top of the gates thus allowing them access behind) are a problem and exploiting certain game mechanics and need to be stopped.

However, the barrier around the scrolls while the games are closed give me pause for concern because it nixes a well oiled strategy that has proven effective for under-populated factions to still grab scrolls...what I am talking about is this : Somehow your Faction manages to open a gate and try to storm the temple, however you quickly get out numbered and beaten back and or wiped...however a few intrepid players sneak off behind enemy lines and wait, patiently for the opportune moment to strike again, usually after things have calmed and the gate is closed. In my eyes this isn't an exploit, this is a valid time honored tactic.. this is strategy and espionage at it's finest....the same as hiding in a keep after a wipe to be an annoying *** and play the flute in a taunting manner whilst the enemy looks for you.

That's just my opinion on the matter.

But I have a very salty gripe with this newest Buff to battle leveling...this is babying and catering to newbies and casuals at it's finest...and quite honestly a hunk of bollocks....[snip]

However, to me this is same same time of "everyone gets a trophy, everyone should be equal" *** mentality that the world has now. Not everyone gets a trophy, not everyone is equal and giving these players a crutch like this is a smack to the real VR14s....PvP by nature is a competitive thing, and the only way to get good at it is working at it, not being coddled and handed major buffs like that automatically put you on even footing with most of the vr14s out there.

/rant

+1 to both points. The battle levelling one concerns me a lot. In my mind, the only people it will benefit are the tons of noobs who run in huge zergs (not trains, zergs). This will make them harder to kill... not a good thing when you're dealing with 50+ players. PvP should be challenging, and you should have to work at it. [snip]

[edited for bashing & to remove quote]