Add the option to scale characters DOWN to older zones, please. :D

Psychobunni · June 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

Why not @FancyTuna8... elaborate!

And that is why I suggested this feature be attached to the Battle Level toggle @Zazaaji.
Battle level OFF, zones work exactly like they work now.

Battle level ON, character scales to zone per the above parameters.

Wouldn't that make a mess? Player A lvl 45, is attacking X with battle level on in level 20 land.....Player B level 20 with battle level off also attacks X and it kills him? Or something of that nature.

I'm not even sure how its going to work in the new content (if) they follow through with that. Just seems like it would screw one side or the other somehow

FancyTuna8 · June 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

Why not @FancyTuna8... elaborate!

And that is why I suggested this feature be attached to the Battle Level toggle @Zazaaji.
Battle level OFF, zones work exactly like they work now.

Battle level ON, character scales to zone per the above parameters.

When I get ideas for what I'd like in a game, I hate when someone just shoots it down, so sorry for the quick reply.
If people had an option to toggle the game to scale, I suppose that would be a good idea.
But as an rpg, I get invested in my character. I want to feel like he's the bad dude that kobolds cower in the shadows when spotting, and nothing messes with him (or is nothing more than a nuisance) when my character's journey has led to amazing abilities and items. Conversely, I actually WANT that "oh, crap, crap, crap" moment when I stir up a hornet's nest of creatures I have no business being within their sense of smell.
As long as they let me keep my version of the game the way I want, if they have the resources you should get to have the version of the game you want.

Faulgor · June 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Frankly, I'd rather see them redesign the zones in the fashion of the upcoming DLCs, so every zone is max level and our characters are scaled up.

Might as well do away with levels alltogether at that point, but it would feel more organic.

Pretty much @Faulgor... which is kind of weird for an Elder Scrolls game.

I don't think I've ever given much thought about my character level in TES games. What mattered were my attributes, my skill levels and gear, and a scaling like mentioned above would refocus ESO on these factors.
People are scared of scaling because they think it will remove any sense of progression, as did I once, but there is so much more to progress in ESO besides character level, it's really not an issue.

Gidorick · June 2015

FancyTuna8 wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Why not @FancyTuna8... elaborate!

And that is why I suggested this feature be attached to the Battle Level toggle @Zazaaji.
Battle level OFF, zones work exactly like they work now.

Battle level ON, character scales to zone per the above parameters.

When I get ideas for what I'd like in a game, I hate when someone just shoots it down, so sorry for the quick reply.
If people had an option to toggle the game to scale, I suppose that would be a good idea.
But as an rpg, I get invested in my character. I want to feel like he's the bad dude that kobolds cower in the shadows when spotting, and nothing messes with him (or is nothing more than a nuisance) when my character's journey has led to amazing abilities and items. Conversely, I actually WANT that "oh, crap, crap, crap" moment when I stir up a hornet's nest of creatures I have no business being within their sense of smell.
As long as they let me keep my version of the game the way I want, if they have the resources you should get to have the version of the game you want.

Hey! Thanks for actually elaborating!

I would HATE it if the scaling were forced. The key to this concept is it being toggleable. I really like @Psychobunni's idea of mobs 10 levels below you just completely ignoring you. Imagine going to a lower zone that you have WAY out-leveled and be allowed to just explore without any sort of mob attacking you.

Would make finishing up those achievements more enjoyable, IMHO.

RazzPitazz · June 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

rajaniemiorama_ESO wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

lsneakl wrote: »

No just no.....

The point is you out leveled the area already, otherwise you could just farm level 1 and be vet 15 in like 3 days with your model of percentage xp increase

ahh.. ok. so that's the issue is they don't want players to just grind to get levels.

Just out of curiosity. Why not? What's the big deal if I want to go from level 1-50 killing werewolves in Glenumbra. That should be a viable way to play. If that's how I want to play.

Because then cadwells would become the alternative rather than the main way to grind lower vet levels.

And that's a bad thing?

Not exactl

Gidorick wrote: »

I removed the scaling up @mdhammond & @lsneakl . You are right, allowing players to just go to any zone form the get to would be a bad idea. Some semblance of progression must be maintained. Thanks for your input!

I tweaked the concept @eric22santiago_ESO, @rajaniemiorama_ESO.

I really appreciate the feedback on the concept guys!

Always a pleasure. The new concept looks more solid ands agreeable as an option for leveling.

Gidorick · June 2015

Psychobunni wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Why not @FancyTuna8... elaborate!

And that is why I suggested this feature be attached to the Battle Level toggle @Zazaaji.
Battle level OFF, zones work exactly like they work now.

Battle level ON, character scales to zone per the above parameters.

Wouldn't that make a mess? Player A lvl 45, is attacking X with battle level on in level 20 land.....Player B level 20 with battle level off also attacks X and it kills him? Or something of that nature.

I'm not even sure how its going to work in the new content (if) they follow through with that. Just seems like it would screw one side or the other somehow

well, the scaling would only happen if the player has outleveled the zone. so the level 20 character would just be... level 20. the Level 45 character would be level 21... so it would function just as if a level 20 and a level 21 character killed the mob.

FancyTuna8 · June 2015

Faulgor wrote: »

I don't think I've ever given much thought about my character level in TES games. What mattered were my attributes, my skill levels and gear, and a scaling like mentioned above would refocus ESO on these factors.
People are scared of scaling because they think it will remove any sense of progression, as did I once, but there is so much more to progress in ESO besides character level, it's really not an issue.

Maybe I'm not understanding you, but I think what you are talking about simply becomes a math equations game. Then it is all about how your numbers combined to improve against a baseline. When I played Oblivion, I made a character I loved -- a dark elf maiden that liked to dual wield blades; I put a lot of work into her appearance, and I played almost entirely as a character playing in a story, i.e. experiencing a little bit of everything. Around level 30, I realized I couldn't even kill 2 orcs in a combat when I walked into the most generic of mines. I read up, saw all the things you were supposed to do to maximize hit points and stat progression, and reluctantly abandoned the character I couldn't see how to fix and made a meathead warrior that was the most efficient choice of race and abilities. Combat was pretty easy, but I was bored and didn't like my character. He was simply the most efficient method of creating separation in the progression of my characters' combat abilities versus the monsters that were scaling up as I levelled up.
I know we don't have a situation that could develop in the same way here, and re-spec is always an option. I just really like for my characters to not become a set of stats.

Gidorick · June 2015

I can understand your concerns @FancyTuna8. Pretty much, I'm suggesting that a player's character be scaled back to a level that is both more powerful than any mob in a zone but is still viable in that zone for XP and progression.

The mob's levels wouldn't change, the character level would.

Lets say a character has 60 attribute points, and they have 20 Magica, 20 Health, 20 stamina. Then they visit a zone that has max level mobs of 29. That player is then scaled to level 30. The result would be their character would have the same effectiveness as a player who has 10 Magica, 10 Health, 10 Stamina. The player would still have access to all the skills they have earned, they would just perform similar to a level 30 character with those skills. This scaling should be toggleable.

This accomplishes 2 things.

1: It allows players the option to grind mobs in any zone they please while keeping the integrity of the zone intact.
2: It keeps the zone viable for play. Right now if you clear out a zone, there is absolutely NO reason to revisit that zone ever again. That's just a shame.

Faulgor · June 2015

FancyTuna8 wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

I don't think I've ever given much thought about my character level in TES games. What mattered were my attributes, my skill levels and gear, and a scaling like mentioned above would refocus ESO on these factors.
People are scared of scaling because they think it will remove any sense of progression, as did I once, but there is so much more to progress in ESO besides character level, it's really not an issue.

Maybe I'm not understanding you, but I think what you are talking about simply becomes a math equations game. Then it is all about how your numbers combined to improve against a baseline. When I played Oblivion, I made a character I loved -- a dark elf maiden that liked to dual wield blades; I put a lot of work into her appearance, and I played almost entirely as a character playing in a story, i.e. experiencing a little bit of everything. Around level 30, I realized I couldn't even kill 2 orcs in a combat when I walked into the most generic of mines. I read up, saw all the things you were supposed to do to maximize hit points and stat progression, and reluctantly abandoned the character I couldn't see how to fix and made a meathead warrior that was the most efficient choice of race and abilities. Combat was pretty easy, but I was bored and didn't like my character. He was simply the most efficient method of creating separation in the progression of my characters' combat abilities versus the monsters that were scaling up as I levelled up.
I know we don't have a situation that could develop in the same way here, and re-spec is always an option. I just really like for my characters to not become a set of stats.

Oblivion's problem was entirely unique to that game though, resulting from the freedom to build your character in non-optimized ways (such as focusing on non-combat skills) and the environment constantly scaling to your character level.
Which is one of the reasons I actually prefer our characters to scale and not the environment, because when the environment scales it constantly shifts the baseline and you have no sense of improvement.
When the character scales to the environment, you just progress in the natural way in your abilities, attributes and gear like normal, but the challenge to overcome stays the same. This way, something like you experienced in Oblivion cannot happen.

That said, I see absolutely no point in scaling down. Why would you want to gimp your character? If it's about having meaningful content in low level zones, the exp and item penalties based on level difference should just be removed for the same effect. :shrug:

Gidorick · June 2015

I pretty much suggested that very thing back on April 4th @Faulgor

Gidorick wrote: »

Would it completely break things if ZOS were to give us some XP for Mobs and Quests that we have outleveled? I'm at the point where I skipped Stormhaven in it's entirety and will be going back later to do the quests but if I get NO XP for killing mobs and completing quests it seems like a waste of time. Allowing us to do this would also help with the post 50 XP grind by allowing us to earn SOMETHING for our efforts.

Or am I just not "getting it"?

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/162960/how-about-a-little-something-for-outleveld-effort

The whole scaling back is pretty much to not break the zone. If VR characters were able to just tear through the zone at their current power level it would probably make it less fun for those that are currently leveling through that zone. This way, everyone in the zone is on roughly the same footing. We've ALL had a high level character come through and just DESTORY an anchor while we are fighting it... Not very much fun. He got no XP for it, I got no XP because I didn't get in any damage... no one wins.

Revenant_Spartan · June 2015

I love the way Rift implemented scaling. You can type in the level you want to be (any level below your current) and you will get appropriate exp from mobs and quests in that level range. Your stats will also scale accordingly. The quest exp is based on the max level you were while doing the quest - not the level you are when handing in. This nicely voids the ability to abuse the system of spam completing quests at higher level and then jumping down to a lower level for more exp on hand-in.

This also allows you to grind lower level areas and completing left-over quests for a full challenge and full exp reward. Also makes it fun when a friend levels a new character - you can still play together and stay on your main without being forced to reroll. And you can choose where you want to grind for that VR14 :P

Another bonus is that you can also scale yourself down for an extra challenge. Say you are doing a level 32 quest and you happen to be 32-35. Meh, scale yourself down yo 25 (or lower depending on what you consider a challenge) and do the quest for more of a challenge and the little extra exp for completing a red/orange quest. And this is not "abusing" the system as you actively choose to make it more challenging thus gaining extra reward.

Turelus · June 2015

If it's a toggle option... PLEASE YES TAKE MY MONEY!

I have been after lower level items sets for ages, or collectables which are exclusive to monsters to Morrowind area but play a VR14 EP character. I would love to option to scale down and go back to farm the items I am looking for.

Faulgor · June 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

I pretty much suggested that very thing back on April 4th @Faulgor

Gidorick wrote: »

Would it completely break things if ZOS were to give us some XP for Mobs and Quests that we have outleveled? I'm at the point where I skipped Stormhaven in it's entirety and will be going back later to do the quests but if I get NO XP for killing mobs and completing quests it seems like a waste of time. Allowing us to do this would also help with the post 50 XP grind by allowing us to earn SOMETHING for our efforts.

Or am I just not "getting it"?

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/162960/how-about-a-little-something-for-outleveld-effort

The whole scaling back is pretty much to not break the zone. If VR characters were able to just tear through the zone at their current power level it would probably make it less fun for those that are currently leveling through that zone. This way, everyone in the zone is on roughly the same footing. We've ALL had a high level character come through and just DESTORY an anchor while we are fighting it... Not very much fun. He got no XP for it, I got no XP because I didn't get in any damage... no one wins.

I can see why that would be upsetting sometimes. However, I think it would be great if they changed XP (and loot) share so everyone gets the full rewards regardless of damage contribution - you know, like they advertised before release. I think that would alleviate some concerns with high level players in low level zones, and make grouping overall much more enjoyable.

If that were the case, I might actually be happy seeing a higher level player coming in to help me ...

bertenburnyb16_ESO · June 2015

ive suggested it multiple times yet, no reaction

Enodoc · June 2015

Another great suggestion, Gidorick!

Gidorick wrote: »

Zazaaji wrote: »

Still no. You loose all sense of progression leveling up if you're level 50 and struggling to kill 5 enemies in a level 4 area. It ruined Guild Wars 2, I do not want it to ruin this game either.
No level scaling in any direction for PvE things, please.

It IS going to happen with DLC, isn't it? I'm pretty sure ZOS has already announced this.

Yeah they have. I can't remember where they said it, but they definitely said players will scale to the level of the content, like in Cyrodiil.

Gidorick · June 2015

Enodoc wrote: »

Another great suggestion, Gidorick!

Gidorick wrote: »

Zazaaji wrote: »

Still no. You loose all sense of progression leveling up if you're level 50 and struggling to kill 5 enemies in a level 4 area. It ruined Guild Wars 2, I do not want it to ruin this game either.
No level scaling in any direction for PvE things, please.

It IS going to happen with DLC, isn't it? I'm pretty sure ZOS has already announced this.

Yeah they have. I can't remember where they said it, but they definitely said players will scale to the level of the content, like in Cyrodiil.

Hmm... I can see perhaps Scaling UP for Silver/Gold and beyond. Maybe not for whatever the 1-50 zones a player has.

Mashille · June 2015

I love this Idea.

|I hate the fact that in this game when you outlevel Monsters you gain no XP. This is especially annoying whne you want to experience all the content but when you gain no reards from it, it is not as appealing.

An example of this was my Alt DK. I got to VR 1 BEFORE I had even finished Malabal Tor due to PvP and doing everything in all the other zones. (I'm a completionist ) So it would be great to scale characters down to zones and still get XP.

I think they should do it in a similar way to how GW2 did it and it would work out really well.

Gidorick · June 2015

I had actually had a slightly different concept at first @keybaud. I suggested players be leveled to zone max level +4. Someone mentioned Guild Wars 2 leveling. I looked it up and realized the +1 to zone max level is a better approach.

I too feel frustration when I gain 0 XP for killing a mob. ANY XP is better than NO XP.

Ajaxduo · June 2015

Scaling down seems like waste of resources and goes against character development, in my opinion that is. If this were a good mechanic I'm sure ZoS would of included it from the beginning. This is the one thing I didn't like in Guild Wars 2. Don't worry we'll get new content eventually, Orsinium (soon tm).

Gidorick · June 2015

I wouldn't judge the value of a mechanic based on weather or not ZOS has implemented it @Ajaxduo. I suggest this as an optional mechanic that is toggleable. Just like battle leveling and attached to the battle leveling toggle.

This isn't about more content, it's about making the old zones playable again.

Ajaxduo · June 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

I wouldn't judge the value of a mechanic based on weather or not ZOS has implemented it @Ajaxduo. I suggest this as an optional mechanic that is toggleable. Just like battle leveling and attached to the battle leveling toggle.

This isn't about more content, it's about making the old zones playable again.

Sure if it's optional I guess I wouldn't mind it, I've been through all zones a few times so the only reason for me to return to them is exploration. But yes optional toggle opposed to forced, thumbs up!

Gidorick · June 2015

Ajaxduo wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

I wouldn't judge the value of a mechanic based on weather or not ZOS has implemented it @Ajaxduo. I suggest this as an optional mechanic that is toggleable. Just like battle leveling and attached to the battle leveling toggle.

This isn't about more content, it's about making the old zones playable again.

Sure if it's optional I guess I wouldn't mind it, I've been through all zones a few times so the only reason for me to return to them is exploration. But yes optional toggle opposed to forced, thumbs up!

I would dislike it if the leveling were added and was forced! Players need to have a feeling of progression. Going into an old zone to lay waste to those that are far beneath their level is a treat all its own! Returning to your first anchor to close it all by yourself. hehe... so satisfactory.

Majic · June 2015

On The Level

Dynamic level adjustment works great and avoids confining players in an "end-game ghetto". Being able to revisit lower level areas and enjoy them contributes massively to replayability and extends the amount of time players remain active before becoming bored and leaving.

It is, in fact, why I've been taking an extended break from ESO (aside from checking in now and then to keep my crafters researching): even though I love the basic game and really enjoy questing through the various zones, the end game doesn't appeal to me at all, and I don't want my characters to level into it before ZOS improves it. If the game had level scaling and made quests replayable in all zones, that wouldn't be so much of an issue.

But it is, and as long as it is, ESO will continue to lack the long-term appeal of games that don't suffer from this problem.

Gidorick · June 2015

Pretty much @Majic! I do, however, think this should be a toggle-able feature.

Majic · June 2015

Balancing The Scales

Gidorick wrote: »

Pretty much @Majic! I do, however, think this should be a toggle-able feature.

Options are always good. No arguments here.

I can understand why some players might not want something like this. After all, there's some content that can be a real beast at-level, so going back and being able to tackle it later with a few extra levels of advantage is a nice option to have. There are various other reasons people might not like level scaling as well, and though I like it, that doesn't mean I'm knocking anyone who doesn't.

In practice, however, level scaling has been very well received in games that have it, and going from such games to those that don't does tend to feel like a step backward. It's both liberating and addictive once you get used to it.

While I'm blabbering, it's worth noting that ESO already incorporates level scaling technology (Cyrodiil and dungeons), so extending its use wouldn't be a start-from-scratch proposition -- though it would still involve a lot of work, so I can understand why ZOS doesn't drop everything and work on this.

On the plus side, a key advantage of implementing level scaling across the zones would be getting more mileage out of existing maps and content, which could potentially yield greater benefits than the cost of implementation.

It could also, ironically enough, help make the Cadwell's Silver and Gold quest lines less onerous, by giving players more flexibility in how they complete them, since one of the advantages of level scaling is that you never actually outlevel content, so you could go do other things and come back to Cadwell's whenever you like without losing anything.

That whole business might well be obviated by the removal of veteran ranks, though, so I guess we'll see.

Sorry for the ramble. Just thinking out loud, and hoping for the best for ESO and its fans (us).

Danikat · June 2015

I really like this idea.

Firstly because I find some of the lower and mid-level areas really beautiful and enjoyable, but they quickly become pointless to play in, and because it makes me feel like I'm under pressure to make sure I complete everything as I'm going through. When I think I've finished an area I end up combing through the achievements and 3rd party websites to try to make sure I've not missed anything so I don't lose the XP and rewards I might have gotten.

I'd much rather be able to simply explore and double back as and when I realise I've missed something and actually feel like doing it.

And although, within ESO, I'm completely in favour of this being down-scaling only, so you still have to level up before you can access higher level zones, so there's still an incentive for levelling up. (I have been having several conversations recently with friends, some of them professional RPG developers, on how a game with no levels could work and how it could actually be fun, but I think it'd have to be built right from the start to work that way.)

Gidorick · June 2015

My original concept had a scale up aspect but through conversation on the thread, I realized that wouldn't be a good idea. Players still need to feel that "progression".

Pman85 · June 2015

lsneakl wrote: »

No just no.....

The point is you out leveled the area already, otherwise you could just farm level 1 and be vet 15 in like 3 days with your model of percentage xp increase

ADarklore · June 2015

I have an idea... how about players actually take their time to level through an area the first time, that way they won't have to worry about being over-leveled for it later. If you choose to skip content and rush to the top, then you SHOULD suffer the penalty for your impatience. Why should the game devote resources to cater to those who make a choice to skip content for their level and then expect to return later to finish things up? I'd rather they devote their resources to adding new content and fixing residual bugs than doing something like this.

Sentinel · June 2015

I really don't enjoy this 'progression' of zones. At v14 it doesn't feel like I'm a part of the world anymore in the under leveled zones. I don't feel like my character has progressed by being able to kill every single zombie in glenumbra in a single hit, even though zombies elsewhere are tougher. To me this is a very cheap form of progression, it gives me no incentive to revisit or care about previous zones. Why should I? I can go in and faceroll everything without a thought. The novelty of having progressed and being able to kill every mob easier than when I was a nub leaves quickly and I'm left with nothing but boredom. Leveling to me isn't just a stat game, its a progression of abilities, how much my character can do with himself. But all of that's just my own opinion.

Going off of my opinion from the above, I will always enjoy anything added to the game that reduces themepark aspects and increases sandbox aspects. If we are given an option to scale our characters down to each zone after we've completed them that would definitely give me a reason to visit the older zones. What draws me in isn't an XP gain or gear gain, it's being able to play the zone like it's a world and still have to think about what's around me rather than becoming a god among mobs that many feel entitles progression. To me that's only half the spectrum though, it is a game that starts as a themepark and moves to a sandbox later on. When I start a character (as many people from previous ES games have tried to do as well), I will instantly move off to explore all that I can. I'm limited entirely by the zone progression, I cannot visit stormhaven and expect to live when I just got to Glenumbra. To me, that's more immersion breaking than anything else. Why should the same things in one place be more difficult compared to their counterparts elsewhere? It doesn't make any sense when I move along a coast that the skeletal mobs suddenly increase in difficulty. To feel like my character is only worthwhile somewhere and not elsewhere gives me the feeling I can't progress how I want, that I must follow the progression everyone takes. So, yes, I would also enjoy scaling lower players up to new zones. They will still feel the progression of leveling up by obtaining new skills, and being able to do more in combat (Skills cost being reduced after each level).

But, this is all because of my own opinion and experience. I simply enjoy sandbox elements, and where they seem like they could improve the game to attract more previous ES games. Themepark games don't feel like progression, they feel like you're only allowed to play a certain ride at a time, and after you're done with that ride you can't experience the same thrill you felt before, and after so many rides, the thrill is gone from every single one.