want Blantant Proof that seige is pointless against blobs? Check out Azuras right now.

RinaldoGandolphi · June 2015

I will say this though, at this point i stopped stressing about this stuff.

i made my statements known about how i felt, and left it at that. I won't stoop to trying to be derogatory to someone elses playstyle.

At the end of the day, we are all here to have fun, and intend to do just that. Nothing is perfect, but right now im still having fun

Bouvin · June 2015

They need to stop looking into ways for small groups to kill blobs.

Because the fact is, anything that enables a small group to kill blobs, just enables the blob to use the same thing, but at a larger scale.

And.. start looking into the reason BLOBS FORM IN THE FIRST PLACE and make changes there. Stop incentivizing players to blob up, and start incentivizing them to run smaller groups.

apostate9 · June 2015

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

The constant stream of people asking for a skill to allow 'unorganized' groups to wipe organized groups with more players is mind-baffling to me.

If you're less organized with inferior numbers, you should expect to lose. It isn't rocket science, it's open world PvP, stop asking for an 'I win' button.

This. How does disorganization get to profit over organization? Answer: it doesn't.

apostate9 · June 2015

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

The constant stream of people asking for a skill to allow 'unorganized' groups wipe organized groups with more players is mind-baffling to me.

If you're less organized with inferior numbers, you should expect to lose. It isn't rocket science, it's open world PvP, stop asking for an 'I win' button.

Some of it really is just whining.

It wouldn't have the volume it did if the lag on the ZOS servers wasn't so awful that organized group and guild play was thoroughly vilified by anyone outside of those groups.

As I've said before, the lag has become such an overarching, persistent, and pervasive issue that the playerbase has turned on itself -- viciously so.

That leads to ridiculous requests such as insta win buttons vs organized teams. Because they're "bad" and anything that punishes them is "good" because "lag".

I couldn't agree more. I'll remember you said that. In fact I might screencap this.

Bouvin · June 2015

apostate9 wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

The constant stream of people asking for a skill to allow 'unorganized' groups to wipe organized groups with more players is mind-baffling to me.

If you're less organized with inferior numbers, you should expect to lose. It isn't rocket science, it's open world PvP, stop asking for an 'I win' button.

This. How does disorganization get to profit over organization? Answer: it doesn't.

Smaller Groups =/= disorganization.

Actually, running multiple smaller groups taking multiple objectives at different places on the map, strategically, at once to effectively cripple the enemy takes MORE organization.

But right now, no one bothers with that, because the zerg blob train can roll keeps quickly and move to the next.

Also.. the zerg blob isn't just about map control. It's about AP farming. I'd argue it's actually about 90% AP farming 10% map control. And right now the incentive is to zerg because you gain AP at a much faster rate by zerging, than running in 8-man or less groups... which actually takes more skill to win fights than "Follow crown, spam Steel Tornado and Proximity Detonation".

Edit, addition:

To add to that. Yes, a group of 24 should be able to wipe a group of 8.

But what does the group of 24 have to sacrifice? NOTHING.

They don't sacrifice AP
They don't sacrifice Mobility
They don't sacrifice Map Control

So there are ONLY incentive to zerg, and no incentives to run in small groups. Hence every one runs in large zergs BECAUSE THERE IS NO TRADE OFF.

What I've proposed again and again is simply, MAKE IT A TRADE OFF. Don't eliminate 24-man groups, but make them actually sacrifice something to run in the blob. The quickest way to break up the blobs is make them sacrifice AP.

bosmern_ESO · June 2015

You really expect to be able to drop a few siege on a group of 24 players and for them to wipe? Healers aren't going to sit there and let you kill their group mates to make it 'fair'.

If you play in small groups/solo, avoid the organized group. I'm sorry to break it to you, but you and a small number of players wont be wiping a organised group of 16+ anytime soon and you should expect that, the most you can do is try and avoid them and let the organised groups of your faction fight them.

It currently sucks because right now to play the map you need a large group to take/defend keeps and there is nothing that small groups/solo players can do to help contribute to their alliance (other then ganking or flagging keeps). Hopefully one day there will be outposts/attractions out in the world that you dont need a large group to take part in, and you can find other small groups to fight.

RadioheadSh0t · June 2015

Bouvin wrote: »

apostate9 wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

The constant stream of people asking for a skill to allow 'unorganized' groups to wipe organized groups with more players is mind-baffling to me.

If you're less organized with inferior numbers, you should expect to lose. It isn't rocket science, it's open world PvP, stop asking for an 'I win' button.

This. How does disorganization get to profit over organization? Answer: it doesn't.

Smaller Groups =/= disorganization.

Actually, running multiple smaller groups taking multiple objectives at different places on the map, strategically, at once to effectively cripple the enemy takes MORE organization.

But right now, no one bothers with that, because the zerg blob train can roll keeps quickly and move to the next.

Also.. the zerg blob isn't just about map control. It's about AP farming. I'd argue it's actually about 90% AP farming 10% map control. And right now the incentive is to zerg because you gain AP at a much faster rate by zerging, than running in 8-man or less groups... which actually takes more skill to win fights than "Follow crown, spam Steel Tornado and Proximity Detonation".

Edit, addition:

To add to that. Yes, a group of 24 should be able to wipe a group of 8.

But what does the group of 24 have to sacrifice? NOTHING.
They don't sacrifice AP

They don't sacrifice Mobility

They don't sacrifice Map Control

So there are ONLY incentive to zerg, and no incentives to run in small groups. Hence every one runs in large zergs BECAUSE THERE IS NO TRADE OFF.

What I've proposed again and again is simply, MAKE IT A TRADE OFF. Don't eliminate 24-man groups, but make them actually sacrifice something to run in the blob. The quickest way to break up the blobs is make them sacrifice AP.

While you are right that 'Small groups =/= disorganization' in general that is exactly what OP was suggesting. A skill or mechanic for disorganized groups and players to have an advantage over groups with larger numbers and more organization. An asinine proposition.

No one is telling you that you have to run in a raid, but you constantly diminish players that do to an annoying degree. If you think running in a raid doesn't sacrifice mobility, I would suggest trying to lead a raid and then tell me that's true. Getting that many people to move together well takes more skill than you give credit for, and players that choose to run in those groups aren't automatically bad players because they actually want to get things done and win fights.

Your solution is 'if you don't play the game the way I do, you shouldn't get AP,' which is absurd. There are enough solo/small group players who get plenty of AP (remember there are diminishing returns to AP) to disprove the idea that the only way to gain AP is to run in a group. Those juicy 1k AP hits for solo kills are a ticks worth of AP for a group. If that were true, players like Sypher could never get Emperor, but we've seen numerous examples on leaderboards of solo/small group players earning very good AP. In general, good groups get good AP because they don't lose often. If you kill more people, get more ticks, you should get more AP because you've done more than the 4-man group that spent the same amount of time sitting between nickel and roe.

And you're completely wrong that trains aren't about map control. An 8man group who tries to take a keep will almost always lose if a full group comes to defend, whereas a large organized raid has a chance. Spreading out players does take organization, it also puts any one of those groups at risk of wiping to a larger group. I know because I've seen it happen numerous times; split your group in half and all it means is that half of you will get killed first, and half of you second if a good group comes along.

Bouvin · June 2015

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

While you are right that 'Small groups =/= disorganization' in general that is exactly what OP was suggesting. A skill or mechanic for disorganized groups and players to have an advantage over groups with larger numbers and more organization. An asinine proposition.

But that's what I'm trying to communicate. ZoS needs to stop adding "Zerg Buster" skills and tactics. And people need to stop asking for them.

What we need to do is make it so that there is some trade-off for zerging, otherwise everyone will zerg (and I don't blame them). But adding skills or whatnot to "break zergs up" is just a band-aid fix and not a solution.

Right now there is no trade-off. I have played in larger groups, and the AP is 10x what it is in smaller groups, despite less AP per kill.

Also, right now small groups stand no chance vs. a zerg. So of course everyone zergs, but does that really take more skill? IMO no. It takes less tactics and skill because it gets simplified to "Stack on Crown, AoE". Smaller skirmishes IMO take a lot more skill.

I'm also not saying the players in the zerg are bad either. Please don't take it that way...
..

TheBull · June 2015

#NerfPurge

RadioheadSh0t · June 2015

Bouvin wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

While you are right that 'Small groups =/= disorganization' in general that is exactly what OP was suggesting. A skill or mechanic for disorganized groups and players to have an advantage over groups with larger numbers and more organization. An asinine proposition.

But that's what I'm trying to communicate. ZoS needs to stop adding "Zerg Buster" skills and tactics. And people need to stop asking for them.

What we need to do is make it so that there is some trade-off for zerging, otherwise everyone will zerg (and I don't blame them). But adding skills or whatnot to "break zergs up" is just a band-aid fix and not a solution.

Right now there is no trade-off. I have played in larger groups, and the AP is 10x what it is in smaller groups, despite less AP per kill.

Also, right now small groups stand no chance vs. a zerg. So of course everyone zergs, but does that really take more skill? IMO no. It takes less tactics and skill because it gets simplified to "Stack on Crown, AoE". Smaller skirmishes IMO take a lot more skill.

I'm also not saying the players in the zerg are bad either. Please don't take it that way...
..

And I used to lead small group raids andmultiple group raids, and I can say that one is not harder than the other. And it's not 10x more AP, that's ridiculous hyperbole. I can still make over 20k AP/hr solo or small group, and if I were making 10x that in a raid... I'd be a much higher rank. Being in a large group that actually does *** on the map can actually slow down your AP gain. I've had hours in group where my AP/hr was lower than my average solo AP/hr because playing objectives is not always profitable AP.

Running in a large group gives you many advantages, but it also means you're a bigger target. The time to react when a large group is hitting you can be much lower than in solo/small group. Yeah, you have more people healing, purging, etc., but you're also a prime target for groups of similar size. A 4v4 fight takes no more or less skill than a 16v16, and if you've run in GOOD raids you'd know its a hell of a lot more than 'stack on crown, spam aoes.' While those are part of the equation, it's clearly not the whole truth (I use all my skills in a long enough fight). I find running in a large group to be far more challenging (and stressful) than when we're down to low numbers just playing small group, it's non-stop action at times and requires much more constant concentration.

xaraan · June 2015

ZoS could work on hurting zerging if they really wanted to, but they don't care. All those zergy guys are happy players running over everything, so either way they end up with some mad and some happy players.

But, make seige do more player damage the more players it hits - see how useful blobbing becomes and how useless it is for the blob to use them against a couple guys. Make prox det that you put on yourself do no damage when overlapping and see how many blobs prosper using no skills except stack, arm prox, run through pugs. Have AP be zero or almost zero for fighting any small force, taking a keep with no resistance, etc. and see how many blobs want to go 50v5 a keep for no AP. (Sure, none of these ideas are polished, but they would do more against zerging than anything in the game now).

Domander · June 2015

There's other siege that could be used, if there was no counter for oil.... then everyone would just melt. I wouldn't mind if purge had a max total number of effects removed.

RadioheadSh0t · June 2015

Domander wrote: »

There's other siege that could be used, if there was no counter for oil.... then everyone would just melt. I wouldn't mind if purge had a max total number of effects removed.

Purge already removes only 2 negative effects per player, unless you meant max total numbers for all players. Wasn't clear from your post.

Domander · June 2015

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

There's other siege that could be used, if there was no counter for oil.... then everyone would just melt. I wouldn't mind if purge had a max total number of effects removed.

Purge already removes only 2 negative effects per player, unless you meant max total numbers for all players. Wasn't clear from your post.

Yes, for all players. Keep it 2 per player with a max of... whatever would be balanced. I'd say 8 or 10

Hypertionb14_ESO · June 2015

Domander wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

There's other siege that could be used, if there was no counter for oil.... then everyone would just melt. I wouldn't mind if purge had a max total number of effects removed.

Purge already removes only 2 negative effects per player, unless you meant max total numbers for all players. Wasn't clear from your post.

Yes, for all players. Keep it 2 per player with a max of... whatever would be balanced. I'd say 8 or 10

6 should be already implemented, simply because thats the current intended cap for healing effects

it will not stop some pushes tho, as you can just have everyone off bar the spell and still be immune at least during pushes into keeps.

Domander · June 2015

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

There's other siege that could be used, if there was no counter for oil.... then everyone would just melt. I wouldn't mind if purge had a max total number of effects removed.

Purge already removes only 2 negative effects per player, unless you meant max total numbers for all players. Wasn't clear from your post.

Yes, for all players. Keep it 2 per player with a max of... whatever would be balanced. I'd say 8 or 10

6 should be already implemented, simply because thats the current intended cap for healing effects

it will not stop some pushes tho, as you can just have everyone off bar the spell and still be immune at least during pushes into keeps.

Yeah.. but if everyone is spamming purge they're not doing something else, also you can't purge a stone treb.

Siege damage is at a pretty good balance I think. I wouldn't mind the lightning ballista/ ice treb, and oil catapult being made a little more useful. The snare siege should probably go back to being unpurgeable, and not ignored or cured by rapid maneuver. It would make these things more strategic than ball up and spam purge/rapid/barrier.

God_flakes · June 2015

Lightening ballistas are good at taking down other siege weapons.

Tankqull · June 2015

Domander wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

There's other siege that could be used, if there was no counter for oil.... then everyone would just melt. I wouldn't mind if purge had a max total number of effects removed.

Purge already removes only 2 negative effects per player, unless you meant max total numbers for all players. Wasn't clear from your post.

Yes, for all players. Keep it 2 per player with a max of... whatever would be balanced. I'd say 8 or 10

6 should be already implemented, simply because thats the current intended cap for healing effects

it will not stop some pushes tho, as you can just have everyone off bar the spell and still be immune at least during pushes into keeps.

Yeah.. but if everyone is spamming purge they're not doing something else, also you can't purge a stone treb.

Siege damage is at a pretty good balance I think. I wouldn't mind the lightning ballista/ ice treb, and oil catapult being made a little more useful. The snare siege should probably go back to being unpurgeable, and not ignored or cured by rapid maneuver. It would make these things more strategic than ball up and spam purge/rapid/barrier.

you can purge everything that has a delay inbetween activation and effect impact(you can even purge arrows or thrown dagger s ^^). and that is sth that definatly needs to be addressed.

EIGHTS · June 2015

This is why my sieges have no damange!!
I learn and should use it as well!

eliisra · June 2015

Bouvin wrote: »

They need to stop looking into ways for small groups to kill blobs.

Because the fact is, anything that enables a small group to kill blobs, just enables the blob to use the same thing, but at a larger scale.

And.. start looking into the reason BLOBS FORM IN THE FIRST PLACE and make changes there. Stop incentivizing players to blob up, and start incentivizing them to run smaller groups.

This so much. All new toys to "break blobs" have a massive downside. They will immediately be used by organized raids to hardcore farm AP. Public groups aren't as effective when it comes to abusing the latest form of cheese. We all know this.

There is no easy solution or quick fix when it comes to large stacking raids. Re-design of both combat and reward mechanisms, are needed. Incentives for smaller groups are needed.

It's not hard to wipe a blob, when the game works. Reason you cant is bad performance(or your group sucks). Lag caused by stacked raids and hordes of random heroes all using Meteor on stacked raid, turns the game into a slide show. But when siege and skills actually work, you can coordinate and burn down any 24-man group. They stay alive thanks to lag and delayed dmg, not because we lack in-game tools to wipe them.

Should we add ridiculous insta-win buttons, that may ruin PvP even more, because of developers inability to fix performance?