There are 2 ways to defeat blobs.

1. Create a giant blob of your own. (Problem with this is it is not fun.)

2. For every 1 keep the blob captures, capture 2 of their keeps. The blob can only be at one place at a time because they are a blob. However it's possible to send 7 man groups with 3 trebs each to ninja every undefended keep they have. They can only respond to one keep because they can't defeat 7 people without their whole faction because they are zergbads. (Problem with this is PvDoor is not fun and you earn no AP. You are not rewarded for your efforts. In fact you spend a lot of AP doing it.)


So basically neither option is enjoyable or fun. Which is why pvp is dieing because people aren't having fun.

I would suggest getting 3-4 people to jump in and CC bomb + aoe while the oils are falling on them.

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

bchulettub17_ESO wrote: »

I would suggest getting 3-4 people to jump in and CC bomb + aoe while the oils are falling on them.

that is a Organized tactic... and thats the problem... we need options to give the unorganized a valid defense

True, but at the same time, pugs (me included) need to grow a pair. I've seen so many people sit on top of a wall against blobs like these, and try the same thing over and over again and fail. I jump out and try to nuke healers and burn siege. Even if I die, it's way more worth than sitting up on the wall waiting for them to blob me to death once they get in.

I think the OP is referring to tight 24+ groups with several barriers, purges and healers. Not just any large group.

well... ok so its not pointless...

that wipe was purely thanks to organization skills using seige tho... 10+ nearly at once.... nothing in PvP would have survived that.

I remember commenting in chat one time that siege dmg should not be purgeable and that you'd have to either not get hit by it or have lots of heal support and shields like the anti-siege shield or personal shields, and i promptly got a swarm of tells saying "OMG that's dumb that would break the game!" and yet we have this. We can have 20/20 defensive siege of varying types focused on the breach and the entire enemy faction zerg will chug on thru with half their number spamming purges. I remember someone had posted a video of 4 people doing a scroll farm and staving off dozens upon dozens of people thanks to ground oils. But of course because the stupids bawled and squalled about it, thats a thing of the past, and all these 'zerg busters' ZOS keeps trying to foist on everyone aren't cutting the mustard.

Yes please, bring back ground oils. Heck bring back the funny purge/wall of elements glitch. THAT did a better job of busting zergs than anything. I've tried to make proxy det work and I just can't. It's a round peg in a triangle hole.

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

we need a fix that lets the unorganized a way to wipe the zerg that the zerg cannot use offensively.

actually, I'm fine with "unorganized groups" being unable to wipe "blobs".
What I'm missing is a way for organized non-blob groups to deal with blobs.

As long as the blob is small enough that it does not cause too much lag, it is actually possible to preasure it with a combination of siege and ranged AoE. But once the lagging starts - all our current "anti blob" tools become useless:

Siege won't work, cast time skills (like magicka detonation) won't ever go off. ground targeted skills only activate after the blob has long left that position, etc....

isnt that the same thing?

a organized but non-blob is basically a unorganized group.

Organized groups are noticeable more laggy than unorganized.

to a degree yes, a group of relative size should be able to handle a less organized group of relative size with the use of timing and tactics when on even ground.

the problem is if the non organized or ungrouped have no chance, they start leaving or joining those groups because they die otherwise... so there does need to be limits of what organization alone can get you.

as you said, enough blob and siege doesn't work so there need to be core changes to make those situations much less likely.

making blobbing more dangerous than spreading out in some situations would be a good step. you shouldnt be able to live if you stack up when several ton boulders or burning oil are hitting you any more than if you were alone.

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

literally 20 people stacked under 5-6+ oils taking no damage due to purge going off every half second... they take no damage when that happens.... The group is able to front door everything because nothing can hurt their blob.

get stacked with 2 dedicated purge members and nothing can touch you save another equally stacked group... Blob warfare is literally unbeatable in the current state of PvP.

this is why these zerg blobs exist and why they are so easily able to run a campaign with just one or 2 bars of population against poplocked factions... and why when the blob is part of the poplocked faction it becomes a pointless endeavor to try and defend against it.

people want smaller pvp, but as long as this behavior is so prevalent, it will only stay the same. As long as current mechanics Enable stacking through literally everything the indiviudal players will suffer untill only blobs and the lag they bring remains...

Back to bashing my head against a wall.

If all five oils were timed to hit at the same moment then they would kill a raid, they each do a base dmg of what 6k or so? It's just the dot that is purged, but ultimately what did you expect? 2 people running 5 oils should not just get to wipe a full raid who is paying attention and using appropriate skills and heals to stay alive. You can actually do something about this, like yesterday I was dumping oils on a large group and not getting much of anywhere, so a tanky dk on my side leaps into their back and drops and ulti and starts getting into it. Healers start to move away, the battle ensues, my oils keep dropping and then 6 enemies are dead and they all run away from the ram. They're not impervious to dying... just impervious to using oils as an "I WIN" button.

The constant stream of people asking for a skill to allow 'unorganized' groups to wipe organized groups with more players is mind-baffling to me.

If you're less organized with inferior numbers, you should expect to lose. It isn't rocket science, it's open world PvP, stop asking for an 'I win' button.

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

There are 2 ways to defeat blobs.

1. Create a giant blob of your own. (Problem with this is it is not fun.)

2. For every 1 keep the blob captures, capture 2 of their keeps. The blob can only be at one place at a time because they are a blob. However it's possible to send 7 man groups with 3 trebs each to ninja every undefended keep they have. They can only respond to one keep because they can't defeat 7 people without their whole faction because they are zergbads. (Problem with this is PvDoor is not fun and you earn no AP. You are not rewarded for your efforts. In fact you spend a lot of AP doing it.)


So basically neither option is enjoyable or fun. Which is why pvp is dieing because people aren't having fun.

this is why i am pointing out that seige is pointless.. there is a topic saying that Ground oils would fix this, but if 4 oils on a front door cant wipe a zerg like this then what would make 4 oils on a flag any differant?

we need a fix that lets the unorganized a way to wipe the zerg that the zerg cannot use offensively.

Seems like you never played with ground oils. what ground oils affords you is that you are laying down siege on them as well as your own aoes and ultimates, which you cannot due from oils that are above. With the old way of ultimate generation you were able to spam your ultimates almost immediately after pouring oil. Also your group should have been pretty successful pouring four oils on a raid. Which tells me your group wasn't coordinating their pours. If all 4 of you were doing timed pours
,meaning you have one guy spotting for you and calling the pour out.. you should have been able to do some damage. But this coordination needs you to be grouped and be able to communicate quickly

Darklord_Tiberius wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

literally 20 people stacked under 5-6+ oils taking no damage due to purge going off every half second... they take no damage when that happens.... The group is able to front door everything because nothing can hurt their blob.

get stacked with 2 dedicated purge members and nothing can touch you save another equally stacked group... Blob warfare is literally unbeatable in the current state of PvP.

this is why these zerg blobs exist and why they are so easily able to run a campaign with just one or 2 bars of population against poplocked factions... and why when the blob is part of the poplocked faction it becomes a pointless endeavor to try and defend against it.

people want smaller pvp, but as long as this behavior is so prevalent, it will only stay the same. As long as current mechanics Enable stacking through literally everything the indiviudal players will suffer untill only blobs and the lag they bring remains...

Back to bashing my head against a wall.

Last time an enemy group tried to front door a keep we were defending they got rolled. Hard. You can set 8 oils on the front balcony easy, add the factor of healers on the door and send out a few heavy tank/damage dealers = you win. It really is not hard to do.

That requires organization, and OP is looking for a skill to allow 'unorganized' small groups to beat larger, more organized ones.

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

The constant stream of people asking for a skill to allow 'unorganized' groups wipe organized groups with more players is mind-baffling to me.

If you're less organized with inferior numbers, you should expect to lose. It isn't rocket science, it's open world PvP, stop asking for an 'I win' button.

Some of it really is just whining.

It wouldn't have the volume it did if the lag on the ZOS servers wasn't so awful that organized group and guild play was thoroughly vilified by anyone outside of those groups.

As I've said before, the lag has become such an overarching, persistent, and pervasive issue that the playerbase has turned on itself -- viciously so.

That leads to ridiculous requests such as insta win buttons vs organized teams. Because they're "bad" and anything that punishes them is "good" because "lag".

I agree. The game was advertised as large-scale PvP, so no one should be surprised at the fact that it is. The lag, on the other hand, is a major problem and a black mark on what would otherwise be a great PvP experience.

But still, I'm not sure that, lag aside, large groups and guilds wouldn't still be vilified by these players. They want the game to only be played the way they want it to be played, and anyone who runs in a raid is automatically 'bad' for playing in a group that does anything other than camp transit lines.

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

The constant stream of people asking for a skill to allow 'unorganized' groups wipe organized groups with more players is mind-baffling to me.

If you're less organized with inferior numbers, you should expect to lose. It isn't rocket science, it's open world PvP, stop asking for an 'I win' button.

Some of it really is just whining.

It wouldn't have the volume it did if the lag on the ZOS servers wasn't so awful that organized group and guild play was thoroughly vilified by anyone outside of those groups.

As I've said before, the lag has become such an overarching, persistent, and pervasive issue that the playerbase has turned on itself -- viciously so.

That leads to ridiculous requests such as insta win buttons vs organized teams. Because they're "bad" and anything that punishes them is "good" because "lag".

I agree. The game was advertised as large-scale PvP, so no one should be surprised at the fact that it is. The lag, on the other hand, is a major problem and a black mark on what would otherwise be a great PvP experience.

But still, I'm not sure that, lag aside, large groups and guilds wouldn't still be vilified by these players. They want the game to only be played the way they want it to be played, and anyone who runs in a raid is automatically 'bad' for playing in a group that does anything other than camp transit lines.

Yup.

The small group vs large group cliques on the forums really do butt heads pretty heavily.

Ultimately neither faction is wrong to play the way they do, but they have to understand that there will and can be moments they are out of their element (that's what happens in open world PVP -- it's part of the difficulty level) and have their expectations set accordingly.

Trying to enforce alternative playstyles on a player when they don't want them or ridiculing them when they decline to conform is foolish.