so now that conceal/Lava whip WONT go thru dodge.

Agrippa_Invisus · June 2015

Varicite wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Magicka sorcs can't fight against everyone? Permablockers can't fight against everyone? How about Templars?

At the moment, stamina nightblade is the only class which has opponents it cannot fight against, because there is no chance of winning even if you are a significantly better player.

Choice of class & build should provide easy & tough match ups, but no automatic victories ensured by holding right mouse button, breaking CCs & spamming ability X.

I'm fine with some builds having very strong counters to certain playstyles (top 4th on my death recap, Radiant Destruction is a good example), as long as I know I could've won if I had played better, done something differently. This is not the case with Whip/Concealed Weapon/Teleport Strike.
There is nothing to learn from those fights, except that the game is utterly broken (which makes me question why I still even play it), and you accomplish nothing with this kind of mechanics, except frustrating the player base that plays stamina builds.

If you want counters, ones should be provided that despite being strong give atleast a fighting chance for your opponent and chance for him to succeed if he's skilled enough.

But hey, even if you disagree and think the game shouldn't ultimately be about your skill as a player... where are the free kills for stamina builds?

Magicka Builds - nope, just spam shields & survive. Good chance for fight to go either way.
Permablockers - nope, explained fairly well I hope.
Other Stamina Builds - 50/50

If there must be a mechanic making stamina builds' survival mechanic useless, then where are the skills that ignore block or dmg shield?

You should have those as well in that case, for it to truly be rock, paper & scissors as you claim.

You clearly do not play a magicka sorc, Templar, or what you like to call a "perma-blocker"...

Every build has its weaknesses. : /

I understand that the grass may seem greener on the other side, but you may want to slip your feet into the other guys' shoes before making silly statements like these.

PS) I'd appreciate it if you stop trying to pretend that I said anything even remotely close to not wanting the game to be skill-based. In every game, there are those skilled players who can defeat their counters by outplaying or out-predicting them, and ESO is absolutely no exception.

Varicite,

I think it's time to move on. He's not changing his mind and I doubt anyone else is at this point.

That way this stuff just drops off the front page for, hopefully, better discussions.

OdinForge · June 2015

They could just increase the speed at which some single target melee abilities fire off. For example on my stamina NB none of my inherent single target abilities can hit through dodge (Gap Closer, Surprise Attack, Killer's Blade, weapon attacks). But an ability like puncture that doesn't brokenly hit through dodge, is much easier to time in the vulnerability frame from dodge roll. It's much easier to time puncture against dodge than surprise attack, although puncture does wayyy less damage.

So while you won't be able to hit through dodge, the timing will be more accessible to everyone. It's a counter that you can learn and practice, but not openly abuse. And it's something that people using dodge can also learn to get around.

If more people had access to easier timed abilities like this, they could leave dodge roll alone. For the people who don't have enough regen to use it the way some do, and need it to not cost more stamina or be less effective in general. Just a thought.

Soulac · June 2015

Varicite wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

If you want concealed weapon/teleport strike/whip to avoid roll dodge, then there should be a way to counter these abilities as well (no, "escape" isn't a counter).

What are Nirnhoned, Harness Magicka, Eclipse, and dodge abilities, then?

Counters already do exist for these abilities. Just because most stamina builds are not going to be running Eclipse or Harness doesn't mean they don't exist, and dodge abilities are still a 20% counter to all single-target attacks even after Nirnhoned gets rightfully nerfed.

You can't dodge Whip / Concealed, neither with dodge nor with any dodge abilities.
Well you can let them miss one attack using cloak, but it's not like everyone got infinity Magicka for every single attack, also cloak isn't reliable.
Harness is useless as Stamina Build in terms of Shield strength and cost.
Eclipse is only available for one class.
Nirnhoned gets nerfed.

I'm not saying that dodge shouldn't have a viable counter, everything should've, but completely ignoring the only defense ability of a whole spec without any reliable counters, too much.
If I'd stop using nirn right now I get >8k incoming hits and can't do anything against it. It's not like mark already negates nirnhoned completely..

Wait for the next major patch

I meant Dodge abilities as in Evasion morphs or Blur morphs... which do work against those skills.

Not actual roll dodge.

My reply was to a statement that said that counters need to exist, and I merely pointed out the fact that counters DO exist. It's just that it's not really practical for every build to include them, which is fine, imo.

Again, not every build should be designed to be able to counter everything. That's boring.

As I said, these skills doesn´t work against concealed and whip.
You can´t dodge these skills, not with a buff and not with a roll.

Erondil · June 2015

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Magicka sorcs can't fight against everyone? Permablockers can't fight against everyone? How about Templars?

At the moment, stamina nightblade is the only class which has opponents it cannot fight against, because there is no chance of winning even if you are a significantly better player.

Choice of class & build should provide easy & tough match ups, but no automatic victories ensured by holding right mouse button, breaking CCs & spamming ability X.

I'm fine with some builds having very strong counters to certain playstyles (top 4th on my death recap, Radiant Destruction is a good example), as long as I know I could've won if I had played better, done something differently. This is not the case with Whip/Concealed Weapon/Teleport Strike.
There is nothing to learn from those fights, except that the game is utterly broken (which makes me question why I still even play it), and you accomplish nothing with this kind of mechanics, except frustrating the player base that plays stamina builds.

If you want counters, ones should be provided that despite being strong give atleast a fighting chance for your opponent and chance for him to succeed if he's skilled enough.

But hey, even if you disagree and think the game shouldn't ultimately be about your skill as a player... where are the free kills for stamina builds?

Magicka Builds - nope, just spam shields & survive. Good chance for fight to go either way.
Permablockers - nope, explained fairly well I hope.
Other Stamina Builds - 50/50

If there must be a mechanic making stamina builds' survival mechanic useless, then where are the skills that ignore block or dmg shield?

You should have those as well in that case, for it to truly be rock, paper & scissors as you claim.

You clearly do not play a magicka sorc, Templar, or what you like to call a "perma-blocker"...

Every build has its weaknesses. : /

I understand that the grass may seem greener on the other side, but you may want to slip your feet into the other guys' shoes before making silly statements like these.

PS) I'd appreciate it if you stop trying to pretend that I said anything even remotely close to not wanting the game to be skill-based. In every game, there are those skilled players who can defeat their counters by outplaying or out-predicting them, and ESO is absolutely no exception.

Varicite,

I think it's time to move on. He's not changing his mind and I doubt anyone else is at this point.

That way this stuff just drops off the front page for, hopefully, better discussions.

I told you never try to argument with this guy. He will skip all arguments he cant deny and say bs while all he ever played is stamina stealth nb with dw/bow or dw/dw.

DDuke · June 2015

Erondil wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Magicka sorcs can't fight against everyone? Permablockers can't fight against everyone? How about Templars?

At the moment, stamina nightblade is the only class which has opponents it cannot fight against, because there is no chance of winning even if you are a significantly better player.

Choice of class & build should provide easy & tough match ups, but no automatic victories ensured by holding right mouse button, breaking CCs & spamming ability X.

I'm fine with some builds having very strong counters to certain playstyles (top 4th on my death recap, Radiant Destruction is a good example), as long as I know I could've won if I had played better, done something differently. This is not the case with Whip/Concealed Weapon/Teleport Strike.
There is nothing to learn from those fights, except that the game is utterly broken (which makes me question why I still even play it), and you accomplish nothing with this kind of mechanics, except frustrating the player base that plays stamina builds.

If you want counters, ones should be provided that despite being strong give atleast a fighting chance for your opponent and chance for him to succeed if he's skilled enough.

But hey, even if you disagree and think the game shouldn't ultimately be about your skill as a player... where are the free kills for stamina builds?

Magicka Builds - nope, just spam shields & survive. Good chance for fight to go either way.
Permablockers - nope, explained fairly well I hope.
Other Stamina Builds - 50/50

If there must be a mechanic making stamina builds' survival mechanic useless, then where are the skills that ignore block or dmg shield?

You should have those as well in that case, for it to truly be rock, paper & scissors as you claim.

You clearly do not play a magicka sorc, Templar, or what you like to call a "perma-blocker"...

Every build has its weaknesses. : /

I understand that the grass may seem greener on the other side, but you may want to slip your feet into the other guys' shoes before making silly statements like these.

PS) I'd appreciate it if you stop trying to pretend that I said anything even remotely close to not wanting the game to be skill-based. In every game, there are those skilled players who can defeat their counters by outplaying or out-predicting them, and ESO is absolutely no exception.

Varicite,

I think it's time to move on. He's not changing his mind and I doubt anyone else is at this point.

That way this stuff just drops off the front page for, hopefully, better discussions.

I told you never try to argument with this guy. He will skip all arguments he cant deny and say bs while all he ever played is stamina stealth nb with dw/bow or dw/dw.

Thanks for the yet another ad hominem, I'm sure that adds to the conversation in a constructive way.

No argument has been ignored, if it makes you feel better. I take great care to address points from every imaginable point of view, and even so I'm still of the opinion that no uncounterable, spammable skill that has been confirmed bugged by the developer should work as a "counter" to stamina builds. A real counter always leaves room for a response, and doesn't guarantee the outcome of an encounter by simply existing on your bar.

This is not to say that more counters to roll dodge shouldn't exist.

An average player shouldn't beat (or be unkillable to) a good player, because he knows how to CC break & hold right mouse button while spamming unavoidable damage. It's really as simple as that.

Also, calling out that I haven't played other classes is not only useless (especially considering you have never played a stamina NB, let alone played one since beta), but also false. I have every other class on veteran ranks (VR1, VR4 & VR5) and deep knowledge of every class in PvP (knowing the FOTMs & meta is important when you are a competitive player).

Juraigr · June 2015

QQ?

vortexman11 · June 2015

Juraigr wrote: »

QQ?

You'r alive

Juraigr · June 2015

vortexman11 wrote: »

Juraigr wrote: »

QQ?

You'r alive

Yep still here

playing other games tho eso has failed unfortunately

Soulac · June 2015

Juraigr wrote: »

vortexman11 wrote: »

Juraigr wrote: »

QQ?

You'r alive

Yep still here playing other games tho eso has failed unfortunately

Varicite · June 2015

Soulac wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

If you want concealed weapon/teleport strike/whip to avoid roll dodge, then there should be a way to counter these abilities as well (no, "escape" isn't a counter).

What are Nirnhoned, Harness Magicka, Eclipse, and dodge abilities, then?

Counters already do exist for these abilities. Just because most stamina builds are not going to be running Eclipse or Harness doesn't mean they don't exist, and dodge abilities are still a 20% counter to all single-target attacks even after Nirnhoned gets rightfully nerfed.

You can't dodge Whip / Concealed, neither with dodge nor with any dodge abilities.
Well you can let them miss one attack using cloak, but it's not like everyone got infinity Magicka for every single attack, also cloak isn't reliable.
Harness is useless as Stamina Build in terms of Shield strength and cost.
Eclipse is only available for one class.
Nirnhoned gets nerfed.

I'm not saying that dodge shouldn't have a viable counter, everything should've, but completely ignoring the only defense ability of a whole spec without any reliable counters, too much.
If I'd stop using nirn right now I get >8k incoming hits and can't do anything against it. It's not like mark already negates nirnhoned completely..

Wait for the next major patch

I meant Dodge abilities as in Evasion morphs or Blur morphs... which do work against those skills.

Not actual roll dodge.

My reply was to a statement that said that counters need to exist, and I merely pointed out the fact that counters DO exist. It's just that it's not really practical for every build to include them, which is fine, imo.

Again, not every build should be designed to be able to counter everything. That's boring.

As I said, these skills doesn´t work against concealed and whip.
You can´t dodge these skills, not with a buff and not with a roll.

Are you sure about this? I'm pretty positive that I've dodged some Concealed spam in the last week on my stamblades..

But hey, I could be wrong, I don't have screens to prove either way at the moment, so I'll just concede the point for now. : )

Erondil · June 2015

DDuke wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Magicka sorcs can't fight against everyone? Permablockers can't fight against everyone? How about Templars?

At the moment, stamina nightblade is the only class which has opponents it cannot fight against, because there is no chance of winning even if you are a significantly better player.

Choice of class & build should provide easy & tough match ups, but no automatic victories ensured by holding right mouse button, breaking CCs & spamming ability X.

I'm fine with some builds having very strong counters to certain playstyles (top 4th on my death recap, Radiant Destruction is a good example), as long as I know I could've won if I had played better, done something differently. This is not the case with Whip/Concealed Weapon/Teleport Strike.
There is nothing to learn from those fights, except that the game is utterly broken (which makes me question why I still even play it), and you accomplish nothing with this kind of mechanics, except frustrating the player base that plays stamina builds.

If you want counters, ones should be provided that despite being strong give atleast a fighting chance for your opponent and chance for him to succeed if he's skilled enough.

But hey, even if you disagree and think the game shouldn't ultimately be about your skill as a player... where are the free kills for stamina builds?

Magicka Builds - nope, just spam shields & survive. Good chance for fight to go either way.
Permablockers - nope, explained fairly well I hope.
Other Stamina Builds - 50/50

If there must be a mechanic making stamina builds' survival mechanic useless, then where are the skills that ignore block or dmg shield?

You should have those as well in that case, for it to truly be rock, paper & scissors as you claim.

You clearly do not play a magicka sorc, Templar, or what you like to call a "perma-blocker"...

Every build has its weaknesses. : /

I understand that the grass may seem greener on the other side, but you may want to slip your feet into the other guys' shoes before making silly statements like these.

PS) I'd appreciate it if you stop trying to pretend that I said anything even remotely close to not wanting the game to be skill-based. In every game, there are those skilled players who can defeat their counters by outplaying or out-predicting them, and ESO is absolutely no exception.

Varicite,

I think it's time to move on. He's not changing his mind and I doubt anyone else is at this point.

That way this stuff just drops off the front page for, hopefully, better discussions.

I told you never try to argument with this guy. He will skip all arguments he cant deny and say bs while all he ever played is stamina stealth nb with dw/bow or dw/dw.

Thanks for the yet another ad hominem, I'm sure that adds to the conversation in a constructive way.

No argument has been ignored, if it makes you feel better. I take great care to address points from every imaginable point of view, and even so I'm still of the opinion that no uncounterable, spammable skill that has been confirmed bugged by the developer should work as a "counter" to stamina builds. A real counter always leaves room for a response, and doesn't guarantee the outcome of an encounter by simply existing on your bar.

This is not to say that more counters to roll dodge shouldn't exist.

An average player shouldn't beat (or be unkillable to) a good player, because he knows how to CC break & hold right mouse button while spamming unavoidable damage. It's really as simple as that.

Also, calling out that I haven't played other classes is not only useless (especially considering you have never played a stamina NB, let alone played one since beta), but also false. I have every other class on veteran ranks (VR1, VR4 & VR5) and deep knowledge of every class in PvP (knowing the FOTMs & meta is important when you are a competitive player).

LOL you didnt read or ignored half of my arguments. I'm not going to list them because Id lose my time anyway, but at least people understood they couldnt reason you.

Juraigr · June 2015

Soulac wrote: »

Juraigr wrote: »

vortexman11 wrote: »

Juraigr wrote: »

QQ?

You'r alive

Yep still here playing other games tho eso has failed unfortunately

Lool don't be sad cat

Artheiron · June 2015

I couldn't find the original confirmation post about this upcoming change from developers, can someone link the page please?

Soris · June 2015

@DDuke Have you maxed your templar?
I'm rly excited to see this in action

DDuke wrote: »

Templar with 70CPs spent: