A PVPer's Perspective on Console Release

wraith808 · June 2015

Zheg wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

at this point excuse me while a take anything said with a grain of salt.

too many disappointments.

Lionxoft wrote: »

More than a year later and work still continues on the Imperial City. That must be a hell of a chunk of content or it will be a completely disaster leaving the community scratching their heads. Let's do the first one.

Everybody knows (or should know) that the reason we haven't had anything was to stabilize console release. Give the man a chance after the release before unleashing the salt.

Uhhh, in your spare time go through the older pages of the pvp forums back until, say, launch, and you'll see that this isn't some new disaster that sprang up and couldn't be worked on because they had to prioritize console for a few months. PVP has been allowed to degrade for a VERY long while, and the man in charge of it just went months without a single post. We're past being salty, we're ready to fling poo at him.

I've been here since start, so don't go start the you weren't here stuff. I'm just saying this is counter productive, and it degenerates into that every time, and just makes ZOS abandon thread. If you do the same thing over and over and expect different results, then you'll be sadly disappointed.

I just want it fixed. I don't care about assigning blame or getting in some nifty dig. I just want them to stay around and engage. And with the way that this toxic forum treats them? I see why they don't.

Zheg · June 2015

wraith808 wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

at this point excuse me while a take anything said with a grain of salt.

too many disappointments.

Lionxoft wrote: »

More than a year later and work still continues on the Imperial City. That must be a hell of a chunk of content or it will be a completely disaster leaving the community scratching their heads. Let's do the first one.

Everybody knows (or should know) that the reason we haven't had anything was to stabilize console release. Give the man a chance after the release before unleashing the salt.

Uhhh, in your spare time go through the older pages of the pvp forums back until, say, launch, and you'll see that this isn't some new disaster that sprang up and couldn't be worked on because they had to prioritize console for a few months. PVP has been allowed to degrade for a VERY long while, and the man in charge of it just went months without a single post. We're past being salty, we're ready to fling poo at him.

I've been here since start, so don't go start the you weren't here stuff. I'm just saying this is counter productive, and it degenerates into that every time, and just makes ZOS abandon thread. If you do the same thing over and over and expect different results, then you'll be sadly disappointed.

I just want it fixed. I don't care about assigning blame or getting in some nifty dig. I just want them to stay around and engage. And with the way that this toxic forum treats them? I see why they don't.

MMO forums are usually pretty negative, but there's a very valid reason for why ESO's have reached epic levels of negativity, and it's because ZOS abandoned communication long before the forums reached the current toxic state. They have zero excuses here; if they were so burned by the forums and couldn't handle it, they could use their official website to release previews and address concerns, among many other venues.

Where you and I agree is that we both just want it fixed, where we disagree is that I don't think the current crew in charge of pvp is capable of doing it given what they've demonstrated for the last 14 months. So, all I'm left with is to pass along my criticism and the criticism of those that used to be on my now empty guilds and friends lists and hope they either get a change of personnel or Brian Wheeler suddenly gets an epiphany.

bosmern_ESO · June 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We have been working with the Combat\Classes team for improving Cyrodiil performance while they are also constantly adjusting\analyzing items, abilities and builds. The PVP crew is hard at work on Imperial City while brewing other ideas for Campaigns to give them a different feel and addressing long standing issues like population concerns with the meta-campaign issues of alliance dominance. Obviously there's still more to do for Cyrodiil and PVP as a whole, and both the PVP and Combat\Classes teams are reading the forums and relaying these posts to each other while discussing options. Some of these options are getting more solid and will be up for discussion soon!

I honestly can't wait for the future, I really hope a lot of the issues that are currently in Cyrodiil get ironed out and we can really experience what PvP has to offer. I hope the pvp team knows whats wrong with classes, and I really hope there are more ability changes in the future at least for Templars.

wraith808 · June 2015

Zheg wrote: »

Where you and I agree is that we both just want it fixed, where we disagree is that I don't think the current crew in charge of pvp is capable of doing it given what they've demonstrated for the last 14 months. So, all I'm left with is to pass along my criticism and the criticism of those that used to be on my now empty guilds and friends lists and hope they either get a change of personnel or Brian Wheeler suddenly gets an epiphany.

They are what we have. So if you don't think that they can fix it, then I suppose it won't get fixed. And no amount of hand wringing nor teeth gnashing will make it happen.

I choose to support them positively, until I can't. And when I can't, I'll just leave. Seems a much healthier approach for everyone. And let the money (or lack thereof) speak for itself.

Attorneyatlawl · June 2015

wraith808 wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Where you and I agree is that we both just want it fixed, where we disagree is that I don't think the current crew in charge of pvp is capable of doing it given what they've demonstrated for the last 14 months. So, all I'm left with is to pass along my criticism and the criticism of those that used to be on my now empty guilds and friends lists and hope they either get a change of personnel or Brian Wheeler suddenly gets an epiphany.

They are what we have. So if you don't think that they can fix it, then I suppose it won't get fixed. And no amount of hand wringing nor teeth gnashing will make it happen.

I choose to support them positively, until I can't. And when I can't, I'll just leave. Seems a much healthier approach for everyone. And let the money (or lack thereof) speak for itself.

That's my standpoint, and how I follow through, for the most part. I have and continue to voice my concerns on some specific topics that I feel really need to be feedbacked on, but ultimately they're going to do what they will, it's their ship, not ours, to run as a company. At the moment there is no other game I would enjoy more, including another brief stint in another major buy to play game with AvA type combat, than ESO. So I will play until that is no longer the case, and if at that time I do not think that ESO is improving or poised to improve, that is when I would quit.

There is only one other game I think may show a strong case to change to (and isn't even due out until mid-2016 or later), but it is focused nearly solely on PVP and while I love PVP, I also love PVE and having things to do when it isn't primetime in my MMORPG play. I've done the whole "Anticipate X upcoming game day and night, while being annoyed the current game I'm playing feels like it's moving too slowly." thing before in the past. With ESO, while a handful of key deficiencies like the addon API, user interface (quality and features), and longstanding bugs (then again, most games do have ones that just don't seem to be able to be stamped out despite many attempts by the devs, so I can't really count that one against them here). Interestingly, while in most games in the past I have been frustrated by balance decisions, I have found myself thinking along those lines extremely little with ESO, probably in part due to how open the build system is overall, and the innate abilities you are provided regardless of your class or build type.

I've seen the same complaints since early beta that ESO only gives you "five or six abilities", but the truth of the matter is we have far, far more than that in gameplay. Everyone is given 5 slots for abilities per bar plus one ultimate skill slot, so it's 12 on that alone, but also the potion slot, dodge roll (or in other words for old World of Wombats players, "blink" from that game), sprint/movement buff, stealth (sneak), block, bash-interrupt, medium/heavy attack charging on weapons for resource restoration & a stun with bonus damage on off-balance/debuffed targets, and weapon swap (stance change), those last ones all being "abilities" in most games. In past titles, you had to have an ability on your bar to move more quickly, or to lower the damage of an incoming attack. Heck, you usually needed one to stealth or had to even be a specific class to instantly move/avoid attacks. ESO's system is actually quite novel on this, and I honestly think it is one of the best system designs I have seen in an MMORPG in the last decade, having been around the block from competitive PVP, world top raiding, and many other areas of gameplay.

In fact, I'm even going to tag @ZOS_BrianWheeler and @ZOS_PaulSage with that last paragraph, because the quality of that system, while I have my faults with some other aspects of the game, truly is just that well done.

iseko · June 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We have been working with the Combat\Classes team for improving Cyrodiil performance while they are also constantly adjusting\analyzing items, abilities and builds. The PVP crew is hard at work on Imperial City while brewing other ideas for Campaigns to give them a different feel and addressing long standing issues like population concerns with the meta-campaign issues of alliance dominance. Obviously there's still more to do for Cyrodiil and PVP as a whole, and both the PVP and Combat\Classes teams are reading the forums and relaying these posts to each other while discussing options. Some of these options are getting more solid and will be up for discussion soon!

@ZOS_BrianWheeler quick question. Why is the pvp crew working on the imperial city when it is just another pve update. The only connection that the imperial city seems to have with pvp is that it is located in cyrodiil. Beyond that it seems to be yet another pve update.

After that little disappointment (would have been fun to pvp in the city) it seems rather unfair to lose our dev team for more pve content which we (the pvp community) do not care about.

Ps: I know you are not responsibile for the glaring problems that are infesting pvp but Im getting well beyond fed up with it. Im gonna keep logging in from time to time untill the next major patch. If there is not a significant step in the right direction: im out. And I know a lot of players who still subscribe who will leave as well. Not a threat. Just a plea to do SOMETHING to make this game more fun again.

Sausage · June 2015

I think Im still on PC-Campaigns, how many Campaign do you guys have on consoles?

Nyteshade · June 2015

The lag is fixed at least, hardly anyone in pvp since console release.

kkravaritieb17_ESO · June 2015

Nyteshade wrote: »

The lag is fixed at least, hardly anyone in pvp since console release.

How can you say there is no lag when theres no players in PvP, wait and you ll find out. If theres no players in PC it doesnt lag either.

Sharee · June 2015

iseko wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We have been working with the Combat\Classes team for improving Cyrodiil performance while they are also constantly adjusting\analyzing items, abilities and builds. The PVP crew is hard at work on Imperial City while brewing other ideas for Campaigns to give them a different feel and addressing long standing issues like population concerns with the meta-campaign issues of alliance dominance. Obviously there's still more to do for Cyrodiil and PVP as a whole, and both the PVP and Combat\Classes teams are reading the forums and relaying these posts to each other while discussing options. Some of these options are getting more solid and will be up for discussion soon!

@ZOS_BrianWheeler quick question. Why is the pvp crew working on the imperial city when it is just another pve update. The only connection that the imperial city seems to have with pvp is that it is located in cyrodiil. Beyond that it seems to be yet another pve update.

PvP team is the team in charge of cyrodiil(buildings/keeps/guards/scrolls/IC etc.).
Abilities/class balance etc. belongs to the combat team, not PvP team (yea a bit counter-intuitive).

Agrippa_Invisus · June 2015

Well, the console release is official. Let's see how the administration of the PC client continues going forward.

CN_Daniel · June 2015

Start paying attention to our player reports. This is something that could easily be done and improve our experience. I've reported our own people for exploiting, and nothing ever happens to them. I've reported the enemy, after messaging them and them admitting they exploited....and nothing happens to them.

This one simple step would at least show us you really do care.

Agrippa_Invisus · June 2015

NPK Daniel wrote: »

Start paying attention to our player reports. This is something that could easily be done and improve our experience. I've reported our own people for exploiting, and nothing ever happens to them. I've reported the enemy, after messaging them and them admitting they exploited....and nothing happens to them.

This one simple step would at least show us you really do care.

Agreed.

We had to clear an outpost of players who had exploited through the doors to the guards and were oiling the transitus yesterday. Garbage players using an exploit to farm.

This game has some of the worst exploiting I've seen since Shadowbane, where it was actually facilitated by the GMs on a few occasions. From macro attack chains to outpost exploits to certain unkillable sorcs, the ZOS response to everything has been tepid at best. The only thing I've seen them actively police and correct were the old bot trains from launch -- and there's debate that the software that fixes that is part of what's causing the massive Cyrodiil lag.

Everyone wants a fair and balanced in game experience.

cozmon3c_ESO · June 2015

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

NPK Daniel wrote: »

Start paying attention to our player reports. This is something that could easily be done and improve our experience. I've reported our own people for exploiting, and nothing ever happens to them. I've reported the enemy, after messaging them and them admitting they exploited....and nothing happens to them.

This one simple step would at least show us you really do care.

Agreed.

We had to clear an outpost of players who had exploited through the doors to the guards and were oiling the transitus yesterday. Garbage players using an exploit to farm.

This game has some of the worst exploiting I've seen since Shadowbane, where it was actually facilitated by the GMs on a few occasions. From macro attack chains to outpost exploits to certain unkillable sorcs, the ZOS response to everything has been tepid at best. The only thing I've seen them actively police and correct were the old bot trains from launch -- and there's debate that the software that fixes that is part of what's causing the massive Cyrodiil lag.

Everyone wants a fair and balanced in game experience.

well i did hear this story where they banned someone for messing with an RP event lol.

BUT YOU CANNOT POLICE CYRODIIl WTF.

david.haypreub18_ESO · June 2015

Manoekin wrote: »

What's up Brian. For population imbalance if you guys aren't willing to go all the way with faction changes right now could we at least get a mercenary option? Make it like the home/guest function where it locks for a certain period of time and we can fight for another faction during that time. It won't have any impact on PvE, and will allow the community to sort out some of the mess itself. As AD our only options are lag fights in Chillrend, or hope that one of the other factions invades one of the other 3 servers and stay long enough to present a challenge there.

I love that mercenary idea!

Also, please take another look at Templars. Other than as pocket healers, they are clearly the worst class in PvP and have been from the beginning, as all polls indicate. I'm not saying Templars have no chance, but as a class they are burdened with clunky animations, skill delays, and global cool downs that are entirely unnecessary and are crushing the class.

cozmon3c_ESO · June 2015

Hey Brian, can i call you brian?

i saw the Imperial City in your demo over 6 months ago at the guild summit and it was near finished. This thing better be [snip] amazing now if its been that long, just saying. This lack of anything from your team is just agrivating, no news on future content, no news on Imperial City since that DAY!!!!!

sorry, on my last ropes here. i was sincerely hoping ZoS had something to say to PC players after Console launch but i was again dissapointed. I like the game a lot, I love the pvp when its working (almost never now), but communication from ZoS is [snip]. How can you abandon your players for months on end because of console release, lol. Worst idea ever

Please give me a reason to keep playing.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

Takllin · June 2015

I mean they just released consoles today and are dealing with all kinds of release day issues...give them about a week before you start going for their throats because they haven't released any update information yet...it's a tad unrealistic to expect them to do that with everything else going on today.

Agrippa_Invisus · June 2015

Takllin wrote: »

I mean they just released consoles today and are dealing with all kinds of release day issues...give them about a week before you start going for their throats because they haven't released any update information yet...it's a tad unrealistic to expect them to do that with everything else going on today.

Well, from a business perspective I understand perfectly why they focused on console release.

It's the same reason gear is random drop only (no tokens) from most end game content. It's to keep us running the same content repeatedly for that one last upgrade while they work on the console and don't need to keep pumping out new things. It saves them money and manpower. It makes sense.

From a customer service standpoint, it's infuriating as the customer. It's extremely transparent to me that the put getting that large infusion of cash over any sort of remedy or satisfaction of their pre-existing, paying customer base.

That's why you get the (not unwarranted) reactions of folks like Leper Si. If you take the anger and tone away and read what he's saying he has a point. How much longer should we, the already patient remaining customers, wait for the fixes? We waited until console and now we're saying 'the wait's about to end, please correct these concerns'.

Some louder and more angrily than me (though I'm equally upset, just much more diplomatic).

Bouvin · June 2015

Turelus wrote: »

Bouvin wrote: »

Step 1. Lower AP gains from full or nearly full groups, by about a factor of 10. This will help eliminate the incentive to run in such large groups and help to reduce lag.

There are already less gains for a large group over a smaller one, and do we really want to go down the route of creating incentives not to play with others in an MMO.
Additionally this won't break up the groups/lag because you can just run three groups of eight right along side each other and gain the same results. The only negative is not knowing where the main raid leader is.

Bouvin wrote: »

Essentially, PvP as it is now, only incentivizes zergs. There's no reason players shouldn't zerg with current mechanics because it's not only the best and fastest way to get AP but the most likelihood of capturing keeps. Remove those incentives and watch the zergs dissipate, along with the lag they are causing.

The incentives for "zergs" is not AP it's winning the fight. This has been true of any MMO without hard capped arena PVP, eventually no matter the level of skill players have larger numbers will result in victory. Players gather together in large groups and then ball up because it's the most effective way to get the most damage and best healing.

If we want to break groups up we need to be looking at ways to force them to split their forces. Mechanics like only being able to take keeps when you hold 2/3 of the resources or something, this means factions can't place all their forces in one locations because they have to hold onto two additional strategic locations.
The above idea isn't the perfect solution however and is far from balanced but it gives an idea on the kind of changes needed to break up groups, this is something CCP Games of EVE Online are looking into doing right now for their Sovereignty capture mechanics, hoping to break the 2000 player battles down into smaller ones across the constellation.

* Edit my horrible spelling.

1. It will break it up, because running 3 groups of 8 doesn't matter. If I follow a Zerg now, and tag people do I get 800 ap per kill or 30? I get 30 because that math is already done. So not only does reducing AP for full or near full groups break them up, but it will also spread them out.

2. I like the idea of forcing 2/3 resources. I think that would help break up the zerg for a moment.. but as soon as the zerg split 12/12 and took the resources, it would just converge and take the keep. It also doesn't help for zergs that just roll around certain areas to farm AP. That's why I suggested adding more (many more) objectives across the map that actually mean something. Instead of only having the Emp ring to defend/take.

Also.. being able to port is a huge part of the zerg problem because it allows the zerg, and anyone just getting into Cyrodil to almost instantly group up and travel to any keep. I've also suggested only adding travel to the 3 home keeps and then making travel unlocked by additional objectives/resources across the map rather than keep control + 1 resource.

Takllin · June 2015

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

I mean they just released consoles today and are dealing with all kinds of release day issues...give them about a week before you start going for their throats because they haven't released any update information yet...it's a tad unrealistic to expect them to do that with everything else going on today.

Well, from a business perspective I understand perfectly why they focused on console release.

It's the same reason gear is random drop only (no tokens) from most end game content. It's to keep us running the same content repeatedly for that one last upgrade while they work on the console and don't need to keep pumping out new things. It saves them money and manpower. It makes sense.

From a customer service standpoint, it's infuriating as the customer. It's extremely transparent to me that the put getting that large infusion of cash over any sort of remedy or satisfaction of their pre-existing, paying customer base.

That's why you get the (not unwarranted) reactions of folks like Leper Si. If you take the anger and tone away and read what he's saying he has a point. How much longer should we, the already patient remaining customers, wait for the fixes? We waited until console and now we're saying 'the wait's about to end, please correct these concerns'.

Some louder and more angrily than me (though I'm equally upset, just much more diplomatic).

I'm not saying he or anyone else doesn't have a point. I want the fixes just as much as everyone else, but you have to have realistic expectations and expecting some kind of announcement or update the day of console release just is not realistic...

I mean how could it even be expected with ZOS track record...that's why I'm saying wait a week or so to let them iron out the console release issues. They can't just abandon consoles the day they release it to them... I mean let's be real, we need this console release to go well just as much as they do for this game to survive in the long term. We will get an update, but right now is not the time, tomorrow probably won't be either, or the day after that. Give it a week or so.

Every MMO has this issue, and the community always reacts the same way. Yeah it's ridiculous, but the scope of this game especially with a console version as well is huge. Not to mention the increasing difficulty of adding things into the game that will have to be reworked once they remove VR adds another dimension and difficulty to the mix.

Did they overpromise and under deliver? Yup, but which MMO hasn't? This isn't exactly new. Which doesn't justify it, but it's just how it is unfortunately in this industry.

Bouvin · June 2015

Zheg wrote: »

Call me a pessimist, but I see our current DC pops, realize the fact that some will leave for console and further reduce our numbers, and anticipate the scenario where EP/AD realize they can make massive AP farming DC as they try to get enough keeps to even be able to enter imperial city. When EP is waiting in queue for 30+ minutes and DC has 1 or 2 bars, it boggles my mind that the pvp crew at ZOS think this update is going to be some kind of panacea. They should have been working on population imbalances and the lopsided buff system a year ago. And when I say working, I mean pushing out tangible fixes and hot-fixes, but the ZOS definition of working on something. Starting now after the amount of players that have been lost is /facepalm worthy.

IMO the buff system goes backwards.

Why would you buff the dominant faction? Shouldn't you be buffing the under dogs?

Agrippa_Invisus · June 2015

Takllin wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

I mean they just released consoles today and are dealing with all kinds of release day issues...give them about a week before you start going for their throats because they haven't released any update information yet...it's a tad unrealistic to expect them to do that with everything else going on today.

Well, from a business perspective I understand perfectly why they focused on console release.

It's the same reason gear is random drop only (no tokens) from most end game content. It's to keep us running the same content repeatedly for that one last upgrade while they work on the console and don't need to keep pumping out new things. It saves them money and manpower. It makes sense.

From a customer service standpoint, it's infuriating as the customer. It's extremely transparent to me that the put getting that large infusion of cash over any sort of remedy or satisfaction of their pre-existing, paying customer base.

That's why you get the (not unwarranted) reactions of folks like Leper Si. If you take the anger and tone away and read what he's saying he has a point. How much longer should we, the already patient remaining customers, wait for the fixes? We waited until console and now we're saying 'the wait's about to end, please correct these concerns'.

Some louder and more angrily than me (though I'm equally upset, just much more diplomatic).

I'm not saying he or anyone else doesn't have a point. I want the fixes just as much as everyone else, but you have to have realistic expectations and expecting some kind of announcement or update the day of console release just is not realistic...

I mean how could it even be expected with ZOS track record...that's why I'm saying wait a week or so to let them iron out the console release issues. They can't just abandon consoles the day they release it to them... I mean let's be real, we need this console release to go well just as much as they do for this game to survive in the long term. We will get an update, but right now is not the time, tomorrow probably won't be either, or the day after that. Give it a week or so.

I don't really feel it's a matter of timing anymore. They've had months, literally, to handle these issues and failed to do so.

At this point, the dutiful customer owes it to themselves to be the squeaky wheel. That's what gets greased. Yes, I understand that they may get all the initial bugs/problems with console hammered out before returning to PC Live, but ultimately, as a non console player, it's not my problem.

I am squeaking the wheel to get the concerns of the long term customers and the pre-existing paying customers addressed. As we can see, ZOS acknowledges that these are valid concerns that they are in discussions to correct.

That's great and wonderful news, glad to hear it.

As a customer with a monetary investment in this product, it is now beholden to me to continue to squeak that wheel. To keep making noise not to irritate, but to remind the company that we are doing our custom with, that they have unsatisfied customers upon which their company's success depends.

We want to be happy customers. ZOS wants us to be happy customers.

Those here are just making sure the focus stays on that.

As for patience, as noted previously, we have been extremely patient. Other games have died in shorter time frames due to not addressing their issues or broadening their customer base. The DC: Infinite Crisis MOBA just shut down after a year of operation and even less time out of Beta and in public release.

Neither we, the customers, or ZOS, the company, benefits by it ever reaching that point.

We both benefit by the customers, as a whole, being happy and having their issues redressed.

If it means squeaking the wheel to do so, so be it.

Darklord_Tiberius · June 2015

Lionxoft wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We have been working with the Combat\Classes team for improving Cyrodiil performance while they are also constantly adjusting\analyzing items, abilities and builds. The PVP crew is hard at work on Imperial City while brewing other ideas for Campaigns to give them a different feel and addressing long standing issues like population concerns with the meta-campaign issues of alliance dominance. Obviously there's still more to do for Cyrodiil and PVP as a whole, and both the PVP and Combat\Classes teams are reading the forums and relaying these posts to each other while discussing options. Some of these options are getting more solid and will be up for discussion soon!

More than a year later and work still continues on the Imperial City. That must be a hell of a chunk of content or it will be a completely disaster leaving the community scratching their heads. Let's do the first one.

By previous estimations, I am going to guess a 30 gig patch to download when they release it.

Armitas · June 2015

They were always working on console, even back in release. It was only after 1.6 that they really dug down and focused on finishing it at any cost. As PC users we have never known whats it's like to have the current game supported by all of ZOS. We were ok with partial support in 1-1.5 but it hurt having only ~5% of their support during 1.6, and no hope until console. Now that console is out we can begin to see how our hopes play out.

With console done we have a firmer foundation spreading across PC, XBox, and PS4 and all of ZOS's efforts can go toward developing the game. There will always be a division between those that code the PC and those that code PS4 but content and balance is across the board and undivided.

I think we all see how much potential this game has; it's why we are all still here through console crisis. Now is our first chance at seeing that potential begin to play out. The foundation is complete and the development is no longer divided. The game has finally been truly released and can begin to reach it's maximum potential.

1.6 was/is terrible, but there is no need to expect that kind of lasting disappointment anymore. I think we should be able to expect more than we ever have before. Unless console becomes some terrible disaster we should now be able to look hopefully toward the future of this game.

cozmon3c_ESO · June 2015

Armitas wrote: »

They were always working on console, even back in release. It was only after 1.6 that they really dug down and focused on finishing it at any cost. As PC users we have never known whats it's like to have the current game supported by all of ZOS. We were ok with partial support in 1-1.5 but it hurt having only ~5% of their support during 1.6, and no hope until console. Now that console is out we can begin to see how our hopes play out.

With console done we have a firmer foundation spreading across PC, XBox, and PS4 and all of ZOS's efforts can go toward developing the game. There will always be a division between those that code the PC and those that code PS4 but content and balance is across the board and undivided.

I think we all see how much potential this game has; it's why we are all still here through console crisis. Now is our first chance at seeing that potential begin to play out. The foundation is complete and the development is no longer divided. The game has finally been truly released and can begin to reach it's maximum potential.

1.6 was/is terrible, but there is no need to expect that kind of lasting disappointment anymore. I think we should be able to expect more than we ever have before. Unless console becomes some terrible disaster we should now be able to look hopefully toward the future of this game.

your optimism hurts my eyes.

wraith808 · June 2015

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

That's why you get the (not unwarranted) reactions of folks like Leper Si. If you take the anger and tone away and read what he's saying he has a point. How much longer should we, the already patient remaining customers, wait for the fixes? We waited until console and now we're saying 'the wait's about to end, please correct these concerns'.

Some louder and more angrily than me (though I'm equally upset, just much more diplomatic).

But tone is a big part of it. I tend to tune out when it's just a lot of invective reading the posts... and I'm not even the target. That old saying about you get more bees with honey than vinegar is a saying for a reason.

Just sayin', no matter how mad you are, you're dealing with people that have feelings too.

Agrippa_Invisus · June 2015

wraith808 wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

That's why you get the (not unwarranted) reactions of folks like Leper Si. If you take the anger and tone away and read what he's saying he has a point. How much longer should we, the already patient remaining customers, wait for the fixes? We waited until console and now we're saying 'the wait's about to end, please correct these concerns'.

Some louder and more angrily than me (though I'm equally upset, just much more diplomatic).

But tone is a big part of it. I tend to tune out when it's just a lot of invective reading the posts... and I'm not even the target. That old saying about you get more bees with honey than vinegar is a saying for a reason.

Just sayin', no matter how mad you are, you're dealing with people that have feelings too.

True, which is why I've been coming at it from a more diplomatic angle.

But the angry man's dollar spends just as well as the polite man's. Business is in the business of doing business, and accountants care not for how you didn't listen to your customers due to them being angry.

Snit · June 2015

Zheg wrote: »

When EP is waiting in queue for 30+ minutes and DC has 1 or 2 bars...

Is that a mechanics issue, though?

DC has plenty of people in PvP -- they're just in Blackwater Blade. I wonder how much of the faction imbalance boils down to decisions by a few key guild leaders.

Fordd · June 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We have been working with the Combat\Classes team for improving Cyrodiil performance while they are also constantly adjusting\analyzing items, abilities and builds. The PVP crew is hard at work on Imperial City while brewing other ideas for Campaigns to give them a different feel and addressing long standing issues like population concerns with the meta-campaign issues of alliance dominance. Obviously there's still more to do for Cyrodiil and PVP as a whole, and both the PVP and Combat\Classes teams are reading the forums and relaying these posts to each other while discussing options. Some of these options are getting more solid and will be up for discussion soon!

When? WHEN? WHEN??????? Just give us a time frame...that is ALL I need! You are going to loose me as a player if you dont give us a detailed "road ahead"! Consul is released...NO MORE EXCUSES! Im not asking for you to provide content next week...I just simply want to know what your plan is for the next 1-2 months. Be specific, be upfront, tell us what is going on, even if it is NOT what we want to hear.

Takllin · June 2015

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

I mean they just released consoles today and are dealing with all kinds of release day issues...give them about a week before you start going for their throats because they haven't released any update information yet...it's a tad unrealistic to expect them to do that with everything else going on today.

Well, from a business perspective I understand perfectly why they focused on console release.

It's the same reason gear is random drop only (no tokens) from most end game content. It's to keep us running the same content repeatedly for that one last upgrade while they work on the console and don't need to keep pumping out new things. It saves them money and manpower. It makes sense.

From a customer service standpoint, it's infuriating as the customer. It's extremely transparent to me that the put getting that large infusion of cash over any sort of remedy or satisfaction of their pre-existing, paying customer base.

That's why you get the (not unwarranted) reactions of folks like Leper Si. If you take the anger and tone away and read what he's saying he has a point. How much longer should we, the already patient remaining customers, wait for the fixes? We waited until console and now we're saying 'the wait's about to end, please correct these concerns'.

Some louder and more angrily than me (though I'm equally upset, just much more diplomatic).

I'm not saying he or anyone else doesn't have a point. I want the fixes just as much as everyone else, but you have to have realistic expectations and expecting some kind of announcement or update the day of console release just is not realistic...

I mean how could it even be expected with ZOS track record...that's why I'm saying wait a week or so to let them iron out the console release issues. They can't just abandon consoles the day they release it to them... I mean let's be real, we need this console release to go well just as much as they do for this game to survive in the long term. We will get an update, but right now is not the time, tomorrow probably won't be either, or the day after that. Give it a week or so.

I don't really feel it's a matter of timing anymore. They've had months, literally, to handle these issues and failed to do so.

At this point, the dutiful customer owes it to themselves to be the squeaky wheel. That's what gets greased. Yes, I understand that they may get all the initial bugs/problems with console hammered out before returning to PC Live, but ultimately, as a non console player, it's not my problem.

I am squeaking the wheel to get the concerns of the long term customers and the pre-existing paying customers addressed. As we can see, ZOS acknowledges that these are valid concerns that they are in discussions to correct.

That's great and wonderful news, glad to hear it.

As a customer with a monetary investment in this product, it is now beholden to me to continue to squeak that wheel. To keep making noise not to irritate, but to remind the company that we are doing our custom with, that they have unsatisfied customers upon which their company's success depends.

We want to be happy customers. ZOS wants us to be happy customers.

Those here are just making sure the focus stays on that.

As for patience, as noted previously, we have been extremely patient. Other games have died in shorter time frames due to not addressing their issues or broadening their customer base. The DC: Infinite Crisis MOBA just shut down after a year of operation and even less time out of Beta and in public release.

Neither we, the customers, or ZOS, the company, benefits by it ever reaching that point.

We both benefit by the customers, as a whole, being happy and having their issues redressed.

If it means squeaking the wheel to do so, so be it.

I think you misunderstand what I'm saying.

I didn't say you don't have a point. I agree with you that they need to give us an update, there are lots of glaring issues they need to fix. It's a valid thread and points you've made. We've all been very patient. I'm not contesting that. My point was simply that expecting a response today is unrealistic, but give it a week or so and hopefully, we see something.

Yes it is a business, and they made a gamble. They gambled that we would be happy enough to stick through this tough time because the game was worth it, and it is. They chose to broaden their customer base and fix some small underlying issues, and then do a big game balance update. Hopefully it works, we will see soon enough.

Snit wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

When EP is waiting in queue for 30+ minutes and DC has 1 or 2 bars...

Is that a mechanics issue, though?

DC has plenty of people in PvP -- they're just in Blackwater Blade. I wonder how much of the faction imbalance boils down to decisions by a few key guild leaders.

Sorry but the population part just isn't true, DC has around the same amount of people in BWB as the other two factions. They have significantly less than the other two in Vet PvP. As someone who recently switched to DC, you wouldn't even need to step into PvP to see this. Tt is very apparent by the lack of new characters in the starting area, and from there on out it gets smaller and smaller. You make a new AD or EP toon and there are tons of people and chat is very active, it's not quite like that in DC.

Right now numbers is the meta, and while there is some skill involved, player skill was a much bigger variable pre 1.6 than post 1.6.

Though I've noticed DC does have quite the RP/ERP population...