DDuke wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Defialed wrote: »

Concealed is the easiest thing to counter but of course everyone who runs stam builds complains that it's "OP". Seriously? I'm tired of hearing people fail to counter Concealed. let me give a hint: instead of roll dodging how about you try blocking? I hit for 9-10k crit concealeds atm but when someone blocks they hit for 2k. Instantly shut down.

Oh, so I should start blocking without any set bonuses or passives towards blocking, and somehow try to "outsustain" the person who is throwing those Concealeds or Whips from behind block (having built for blocking infinitely), being virtually unkillable to you?

Can you come up with another brilliant idea please?

you have speed bonuses, large part is getting away and making space.

I have fought good stam builds that instead of QQing on forums about undodgable skills they learn to outrun it or maneuver it. Remember its a melee range magicka attack.

You try to outrun these builds, you get hit by gap closers (Ambush, Crit Charge, Shielded Assault etc), some of which also bypass dodge roll.
Stamina builds do not have any bonus speed compared to other builds, unless you mean the sprint speed increase from medium armour (too bad sprinting equals suicide in PvP, when you're in range of your opponent).

Also, any kind of snare quickly ends any hope of escaping these "hold block & spam whip/concealed" builds.
Why you should be forced to escape in the first place is beyond me.

Thing is, there being builds that force you to escape since you can't kill them is something that makes instagibbing all the more prevalent. When you can't beat an opponent in a "fair" fight, you are forced to take them down before any "fair" fight can happen. This creates more & more problems for the whole balance of the game.

Is there something wrong with spamming roll dodge forever? Yes.

Should it be fixed by undodgeable attacks, to which the only counterplay is to "run away"? No.

As mentioned previously in this thread, there are other counters to roll dodge which are perfectly fine:

Jesus Beam - interruptable, cloakable
Curse - block or cloak when it goes off
Soul Assault - cloak/cleanse/interrupt
Lightning/Resto Heavy Attacks - cant be done while blocking, meaning vulnerable opponent as well
Sorc Pet - kill it

...and then we have:

Whip/Concealed Weapon - run away & try not to die while opponent is spamming them from behind block?



Having those skills bypass roll dodge is pretty much the same as if my Surprise Attacks bypassed block.

L2p with dots, shadow image or caltrop and fear every 6 secs and you will drop stamina of most of the "permablockers" pretty fast
This wont work on only few players, and those wont have high damages due to all the sacrificies they made. Then undodgeable whip are easily outhealed with rally and/or vigor. If you dont want to play with heals then deal with it.

OR there is the *** way, the dduke way as I like to call it. Stack 4.3k wep damages and try to instagibb. Then dont cry if you cant sustain a fight.

"Pretty fast", as in after 15-20 minutes? There are people tanking 10+ at the same time, you aren't going to drop the stamina of a permablocker (who knows what he's doing) alone "pretty fast".

Also, while this may be surprising to you, I should probably let you know that not everyone likes playing a FOTM sustain rollerblade stacking heals & rolling forever.

Should these builds be substandard in 1v1 fights, and only be suitable for instagibbing opponents? No, I do not think so.

If the only answer to a sustain build is another sustain build (or instagib), then something is wrong with the game balance and you'd be a fool to argue otherwise.


That said, even the FOTM rollerblades run into problems against permablockers (the ones that know how to break free), due to the undodgeable whips/concealeds/teleport strikes which mean your already low DPS is even lower since you have to reapply vigor & rally all the time while hitting your opponent for 10 damage through his block.

I'd like you to find me one stamina nightblade that has zero problems whatsoever against a permablock concealed/whip spammer. Or better yet, play one yourself so you'd atleast know what you're talking about.

As a stamina NB, while I know you can't spam it, why are you not taking advantage of the class skill best used to break the blockcaster's permablock? That skill being Fear?

Even at my low VR of 3 on my alt, I've used fear numerous times to break the blocking and follow with an Ambush/Surprise Attack to do heavy damage on the permablockers like DKs and Templars.

It's not uncommon in Cyrodiil to see a fear followed by a Wrecking Blow or an Ambush Combo, or a heavy attack animation canceled into an Incapacitating Strike.

The complaints about permablockers seem unwarranted, especially when NBs have a hard counter to it.

DKs do also, in Fossilize.

As mentioned, it does work against the people who do not break it instantly or near instantly (yes, there are many of them I know), but then there are people who react faster (within 1,3 seconds), meaning you deal zero unblocked damage thanks to that fear and it basicly just drains 1/10th of target's stamina and 1/3rd of your magicka.

Being beaten by someone with legitimately faster reaction times and better play is ok in my book.

In most situations it will and does work as well as any skill in this buggy game.

An alternate solution is, even with it in it's current OP state, is to nirn trait your armor and spend Champion Points on the skill that reduces incoming flame damage. With that the flame lashes should be sufficiently weak that Vigor or Rally will heal you through them.

Skills and abilities, including Dodge Roll, need counters for PVP to be fair and tactical. It's the things without counters (e.g.; nirnhoned to max spell resist) that are truly OP.

DDuke wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Defialed wrote: »

Concealed is the easiest thing to counter but of course everyone who runs stam builds complains that it's "OP". Seriously? I'm tired of hearing people fail to counter Concealed. let me give a hint: instead of roll dodging how about you try blocking? I hit for 9-10k crit concealeds atm but when someone blocks they hit for 2k. Instantly shut down.

Oh, so I should start blocking without any set bonuses or passives towards blocking, and somehow try to "outsustain" the person who is throwing those Concealeds or Whips from behind block (having built for blocking infinitely), being virtually unkillable to you?

Can you come up with another brilliant idea please?

you have speed bonuses, large part is getting away and making space.

I have fought good stam builds that instead of QQing on forums about undodgable skills they learn to outrun it or maneuver it. Remember its a melee range magicka attack.

You try to outrun these builds, you get hit by gap closers (Ambush, Crit Charge, Shielded Assault etc), some of which also bypass dodge roll.
Stamina builds do not have any bonus speed compared to other builds, unless you mean the sprint speed increase from medium armour (too bad sprinting equals suicide in PvP, when you're in range of your opponent).

Also, any kind of snare quickly ends any hope of escaping these "hold block & spam whip/concealed" builds.
Why you should be forced to escape in the first place is beyond me.

Thing is, there being builds that force you to escape since you can't kill them is something that makes instagibbing all the more prevalent. When you can't beat an opponent in a "fair" fight, you are forced to take them down before any "fair" fight can happen. This creates more & more problems for the whole balance of the game.

Is there something wrong with spamming roll dodge forever? Yes.

Should it be fixed by undodgeable attacks, to which the only counterplay is to "run away"? No.

As mentioned previously in this thread, there are other counters to roll dodge which are perfectly fine:

Jesus Beam - interruptable, cloakable
Curse - block or cloak when it goes off
Soul Assault - cloak/cleanse/interrupt
Lightning/Resto Heavy Attacks - cant be done while blocking, meaning vulnerable opponent as well
Sorc Pet - kill it

...and then we have:

Whip/Concealed Weapon - run away & try not to die while opponent is spamming them from behind block?



Having those skills bypass roll dodge is pretty much the same as if my Surprise Attacks bypassed block.

L2p with dots, shadow image or caltrop and fear every 6 secs and you will drop stamina of most of the "permablockers" pretty fast
This wont work on only few players, and those wont have high damages due to all the sacrificies they made. Then undodgeable whip are easily outhealed with rally and/or vigor. If you dont want to play with heals then deal with it.

OR there is the *** way, the dduke way as I like to call it. Stack 4.3k wep damages and try to instagibb. Then dont cry if you cant sustain a fight.

"Pretty fast", as in after 15-20 minutes? There are people tanking 10+ at the same time, you aren't going to drop the stamina of a permablocker (who knows what he's doing) alone "pretty fast".

Also, while this may be surprising to you, I should probably let you know that not everyone likes playing a FOTM sustain rollerblade stacking heals & rolling forever.

Should these builds be substandard in 1v1 fights, and only be suitable for instagibbing opponents? No, I do not think so.

If the only answer to a sustain build is another sustain build (or instagib), then something is wrong with the game balance and you'd be a fool to argue otherwise.


That said, even the FOTM rollerblades run into problems against permablockers (the ones that know how to break free), due to the undodgeable whips/concealeds/teleport strikes which mean your already low DPS is even lower since you have to reapply vigor & rally all the time while hitting your opponent for 10 damage through his block.

I'd like you to find me one stamina nightblade that has zero problems whatsoever against a permablock concealed/whip spammer. Or better yet, play one yourself so you'd atleast know what you're talking about.

As a stamina NB, while I know you can't spam it, why are you not taking advantage of the class skill best used to break the blockcaster's permablock? That skill being Fear?

Even at my low VR of 3 on my alt, I've used fear numerous times to break the blocking and follow with an Ambush/Surprise Attack to do heavy damage on the permablockers like DKs and Templars.

It's not uncommon in Cyrodiil to see a fear followed by a Wrecking Blow or an Ambush Combo, or a heavy attack animation canceled into an Incapacitating Strike.

The complaints about permablockers seem unwarranted, especially when NBs have a hard counter to it.

DKs do also, in Fossilize.

As mentioned, it does work against the people who do not break it instantly or near instantly (yes, there are many of them I know), but then there are people who react faster (within 1,3 seconds), meaning you deal zero unblocked damage thanks to that fear and it basicly just drains 1/10th of target's stamina and 1/3rd of your magicka.

Being beaten by someone with legitimately faster reaction times and better play is ok in my book.

In most situations it will and does work as well as any skill in this buggy game.

An alternate solution is, even with it in it's current OP state, is to nirn trait your armor and spend Champion Points on the skill that reduces incoming flame damage. With that the flame lashes should be sufficiently weak that Vigor or Rally will heal you through them.

Skills and abilities, including Dodge Roll, need counters for PVP to be fair and tactical. It's the things without counters (e.g.; nirnhoned to max spell resist) that are truly OP.

And what is the counter to whip/concealed spam from behind block then? Playing a sustain build & abusing nirnhoned (which is getting nerfed)?

Up until 1.6, it was possible to play a character build focused on stealth & dmg avoidance, rather than healing & tanking.

After 1.6, you're still fine playing a stealth & dmg avoidance based build, until you run across someone who's damage is unavoidable, despite your better reaction time & better play.

I already answered that question in a previous post.

And the complaint was 'well, some people are really quick and break fear fast'. You state 'despite better reaction time', but it seems unlikely you have it if they're able to break fear so quickly you can't attack (I have seen the game often not registering the break command).

Well, some times you'll get out played, out reacted, and out skilled. It happens, it's ok. Happens to me all the time, too. Do your best, learn from the death if you died, or figure out your escape (as an NB you have some options).

DDuke wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Defialed wrote: »

Concealed is the easiest thing to counter but of course everyone who runs stam builds complains that it's "OP". Seriously? I'm tired of hearing people fail to counter Concealed. let me give a hint: instead of roll dodging how about you try blocking? I hit for 9-10k crit concealeds atm but when someone blocks they hit for 2k. Instantly shut down.

Oh, so I should start blocking without any set bonuses or passives towards blocking, and somehow try to "outsustain" the person who is throwing those Concealeds or Whips from behind block (having built for blocking infinitely), being virtually unkillable to you?

Can you come up with another brilliant idea please?

you have speed bonuses, large part is getting away and making space.

I have fought good stam builds that instead of QQing on forums about undodgable skills they learn to outrun it or maneuver it. Remember its a melee range magicka attack.

You try to outrun these builds, you get hit by gap closers (Ambush, Crit Charge, Shielded Assault etc), some of which also bypass dodge roll.
Stamina builds do not have any bonus speed compared to other builds, unless you mean the sprint speed increase from medium armour (too bad sprinting equals suicide in PvP, when you're in range of your opponent).

Also, any kind of snare quickly ends any hope of escaping these "hold block & spam whip/concealed" builds.
Why you should be forced to escape in the first place is beyond me.

Thing is, there being builds that force you to escape since you can't kill them is something that makes instagibbing all the more prevalent. When you can't beat an opponent in a "fair" fight, you are forced to take them down before any "fair" fight can happen. This creates more & more problems for the whole balance of the game.

Is there something wrong with spamming roll dodge forever? Yes.

Should it be fixed by undodgeable attacks, to which the only counterplay is to "run away"? No.

As mentioned previously in this thread, there are other counters to roll dodge which are perfectly fine:

Jesus Beam - interruptable, cloakable
Curse - block or cloak when it goes off
Soul Assault - cloak/cleanse/interrupt
Lightning/Resto Heavy Attacks - cant be done while blocking, meaning vulnerable opponent as well
Sorc Pet - kill it

...and then we have:

Whip/Concealed Weapon - run away & try not to die while opponent is spamming them from behind block?



Having those skills bypass roll dodge is pretty much the same as if my Surprise Attacks bypassed block.

L2p with dots, shadow image or caltrop and fear every 6 secs and you will drop stamina of most of the "permablockers" pretty fast
This wont work on only few players, and those wont have high damages due to all the sacrificies they made. Then undodgeable whip are easily outhealed with rally and/or vigor. If you dont want to play with heals then deal with it.

OR there is the *** way, the dduke way as I like to call it. Stack 4.3k wep damages and try to instagibb. Then dont cry if you cant sustain a fight.

"Pretty fast", as in after 15-20 minutes? There are people tanking 10+ at the same time, you aren't going to drop the stamina of a permablocker (who knows what he's doing) alone "pretty fast".

Also, while this may be surprising to you, I should probably let you know that not everyone likes playing a FOTM sustain rollerblade stacking heals & rolling forever.

Should these builds be substandard in 1v1 fights, and only be suitable for instagibbing opponents? No, I do not think so.

If the only answer to a sustain build is another sustain build (or instagib), then something is wrong with the game balance and you'd be a fool to argue otherwise.


That said, even the FOTM rollerblades run into problems against permablockers (the ones that know how to break free), due to the undodgeable whips/concealeds/teleport strikes which mean your already low DPS is even lower since you have to reapply vigor & rally all the time while hitting your opponent for 10 damage through his block.

I'd like you to find me one stamina nightblade that has zero problems whatsoever against a permablock concealed/whip spammer. Or better yet, play one yourself so you'd atleast know what you're talking about.

There is no "permablocker" who was actally dealing decent damages and that I couldn't put oos in less than 5 minutes of fight. And I'm vampire.
The FOTM build you're talking about is made for being polyvalent and able to stay viable agaisnt every kind of ennemys. If you don't want to play it, alright, I understand why (since I don't want to play one neither) but don't say that a stamina build can't counter permablock then.
"all the time" is one rally every 20+ sec? (Idk the exact duration)+ when low health and one vigor every 5 secs. I have to reapply my harness every 4-5 seconds agaisnt those ennemys and I stil have enough damages to kill them. Btw I'm not sure you're in the best position to talk about duel meta since I've actually never seen you dueling with Arena
Suki has also a dk stamina build that is very different from FOTM that doesnt have problem agaisnt permablock concelead/whip spammer since he doesnt rely on dodgeroll and I'm sure this kind of build (sb+2h) would work too. Soulac doesnt seem to have problem agaisnt those. Your last argument is kinda funny coming from someone who never PvPed with anything but his "stamina stealth nb" (which did not prevent you to predict that blazing shield would be OP in 1.6 even if some templars told you thy tested and it sucks LOL). Btw if you give me enough gold to get a decent gear I'm ok to try to make a stamina nightblade build that works agaisnt permablock

I highlighted this in hopes you'd actually read it:

If the only answer to a sustain build is another sustain build (or instagib), then something is wrong with the game balance and you'd be a fool to argue otherwise.

Granted, I have not tried out abusing Nirnhoned (which is getting nerfed) & seeing if Vigor+Rally could keep me up from those 4-10k unavoidable whips/concealeds every 1,3 seconds, but you are not going to kill a permablocker with that (unless he's very, very bad), so you're stuck in "I deal little damage, you deal little damage, no one dies".

Also, a "stamina build" that doesn't rely on roll dodge and uses S&B+2H sounds more like a blocking/tanking focused build to me than a real stamina build.


The reason you haven't seen me duel with Arena is because of these balance issues. I either instagib everyone I duel against after a combo, or I die to 100% unavoidable concealeds/whips & detection pots. Sounds hardly interesting to me.

However, if you do want to see me dueling against Arena people, open my 4th video where you can see me dueling against people like Legendary Mage (around half way through the video), back in the days of 1.4, when everyone was laughing at stamina builds (free AP, they were called). There were not many people in the entire Arena I couldn't beat in duels.

Oh, and the Templar build? They actually did nerf damage shields (luckily). I'm sure you would've preferred them being 15% stronger in PvP right now.

That said, the Templar build still works against melee builds (I always make builds on PTS which are designed to be as bad match ups as possible against mine). Also, there was no one on the PTS who could beat the templar I built (with suboptimal gear).

Maybe you still think you're in wow or something... in this game for duels you cant have a "full sustain build" or a "full burst build", you need to combine both. Sure there is one of those aspect that you will favor, but you need to ally both if you wanna be able to kill someone. If you ask me my build is more about burst than about sustain, and I still win most of my duels agaisnt sustained build. If you try to be full burst you will kill your opponent the first time maybe in 15 seconds and not the next times. If you want to go full sustain it will be a boring draw at all your duels. I don't see the problem here.

A permablocker will never hit you for more than 5k with a whip/concelead weapon (even if you dont exploit nirn). Maybe you would know it if you had tried others speccs than the stamina stealth nightblade . My own damages are also reduced by block, I can still kill those permablocker while, as I already said, I have to refresh my harness as much as a stamina nb has to refresh his heals if he is getting attacked. And yes, stamina players actually kill permablockers... dont be so sure of you : you most likely never saw a duel on the live server since 1.4.
I think you should really see suki dueling, sure he uses block but his damages are insane, and whatever you can say its still a stamina build with stamina attacks.
I saw yourvid, you use los/stealth which is now usually forbidden because its just boring when someone los/stealth mid duel. And since you've never been on duel spots, I barely see how you can really be aware of the actual duel meta/competitive builds anyway. Oh sorry, I forgot, you know everything, and you're one of the best dueller of Arena ofc )
You were still saying that the templar with max hp was op ~1 month after the 1.6 release (and the shield nerf) but maybe you forgot that. The 15% shield nerf is fine for me since its not really my primary defence, thanks to bother
Please, don't take example of PTS, PTS is not a good indicator, first because some builds need very special gear to be good, sets that you usually dont have on PTS, second because there is a big latency. As example on PTS the melee magicka nb build was definitely shiet, I had no damages, 0 survivability and was losing most of my duels with this build while ranged syphon was working better. Without any important patch, I now with the good setup got huge damages (imo at least) and a quite decent survivability. I also win most of my fights and at the contrary, its the syphon spec that seems weak... you see what I mean? PTS doesnt prove anything.

Btw dude I'm sorry, but we both know you will never accept that you aren't aware of everything and you might be wrong on some points, your ego is too big for that. Maybe we should agree to disagree, the only advice I can give you is to try the specs you're defining as "op" because it might be much harder than what yu think. (At least much harder than instaggibing afk people)

DDuke wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Defialed wrote: »

Concealed is the easiest thing to counter but of course everyone who runs stam builds complains that it's "OP". Seriously? I'm tired of hearing people fail to counter Concealed. let me give a hint: instead of roll dodging how about you try blocking? I hit for 9-10k crit concealeds atm but when someone blocks they hit for 2k. Instantly shut down.

Oh, so I should start blocking without any set bonuses or passives towards blocking, and somehow try to "outsustain" the person who is throwing those Concealeds or Whips from behind block (having built for blocking infinitely), being virtually unkillable to you?

Can you come up with another brilliant idea please?

you have speed bonuses, large part is getting away and making space.

I have fought good stam builds that instead of QQing on forums about undodgable skills they learn to outrun it or maneuver it. Remember its a melee range magicka attack.

You try to outrun these builds, you get hit by gap closers (Ambush, Crit Charge, Shielded Assault etc), some of which also bypass dodge roll.
Stamina builds do not have any bonus speed compared to other builds, unless you mean the sprint speed increase from medium armour (too bad sprinting equals suicide in PvP, when you're in range of your opponent).

Also, any kind of snare quickly ends any hope of escaping these "hold block & spam whip/concealed" builds.
Why you should be forced to escape in the first place is beyond me.

Thing is, there being builds that force you to escape since you can't kill them is something that makes instagibbing all the more prevalent. When you can't beat an opponent in a "fair" fight, you are forced to take them down before any "fair" fight can happen. This creates more & more problems for the whole balance of the game.

Is there something wrong with spamming roll dodge forever? Yes.

Should it be fixed by undodgeable attacks, to which the only counterplay is to "run away"? No.

As mentioned previously in this thread, there are other counters to roll dodge which are perfectly fine:

Jesus Beam - interruptable, cloakable
Curse - block or cloak when it goes off
Soul Assault - cloak/cleanse/interrupt
Lightning/Resto Heavy Attacks - cant be done while blocking, meaning vulnerable opponent as well
Sorc Pet - kill it

...and then we have:

Whip/Concealed Weapon - run away & try not to die while opponent is spamming them from behind block?



Having those skills bypass roll dodge is pretty much the same as if my Surprise Attacks bypassed block.

L2p with dots, shadow image or caltrop and fear every 6 secs and you will drop stamina of most of the "permablockers" pretty fast
This wont work on only few players, and those wont have high damages due to all the sacrificies they made. Then undodgeable whip are easily outhealed with rally and/or vigor. If you dont want to play with heals then deal with it.

OR there is the *** way, the dduke way as I like to call it. Stack 4.3k wep damages and try to instagibb. Then dont cry if you cant sustain a fight.

"Pretty fast", as in after 15-20 minutes? There are people tanking 10+ at the same time, you aren't going to drop the stamina of a permablocker (who knows what he's doing) alone "pretty fast".

Also, while this may be surprising to you, I should probably let you know that not everyone likes playing a FOTM sustain rollerblade stacking heals & rolling forever.

Should these builds be substandard in 1v1 fights, and only be suitable for instagibbing opponents? No, I do not think so.

If the only answer to a sustain build is another sustain build (or instagib), then something is wrong with the game balance and you'd be a fool to argue otherwise.


That said, even the FOTM rollerblades run into problems against permablockers (the ones that know how to break free), due to the undodgeable whips/concealeds/teleport strikes which mean your already low DPS is even lower since you have to reapply vigor & rally all the time while hitting your opponent for 10 damage through his block.

I'd like you to find me one stamina nightblade that has zero problems whatsoever against a permablock concealed/whip spammer. Or better yet, play one yourself so you'd atleast know what you're talking about.

As a stamina NB, while I know you can't spam it, why are you not taking advantage of the class skill best used to break the blockcaster's permablock? That skill being Fear?

Even at my low VR of 3 on my alt, I've used fear numerous times to break the blocking and follow with an Ambush/Surprise Attack to do heavy damage on the permablockers like DKs and Templars.

It's not uncommon in Cyrodiil to see a fear followed by a Wrecking Blow or an Ambush Combo, or a heavy attack animation canceled into an Incapacitating Strike.

The complaints about permablockers seem unwarranted, especially when NBs have a hard counter to it.

DKs do also, in Fossilize.

As mentioned, it does work against the people who do not break it instantly or near instantly (yes, there are many of them I know), but then there are people who react faster (within 1,3 seconds), meaning you deal zero unblocked damage thanks to that fear and it basicly just drains 1/10th of target's stamina and 1/3rd of your magicka.

Being beaten by someone with legitimately faster reaction times and better play is ok in my book.

In most situations it will and does work as well as any skill in this buggy game.

An alternate solution is, even with it in it's current OP state, is to nirn trait your armor and spend Champion Points on the skill that reduces incoming flame damage. With that the flame lashes should be sufficiently weak that Vigor or Rally will heal you through them.

Skills and abilities, including Dodge Roll, need counters for PVP to be fair and tactical. It's the things without counters (e.g.; nirnhoned to max spell resist) that are truly OP.

And what is the counter to whip/concealed spam from behind block then? Playing a sustain build & abusing nirnhoned (which is getting nerfed)?

Up until 1.6, it was possible to play a character build focused on stealth & dmg avoidance, rather than healing & tanking.

After 1.6, you're still fine playing a stealth & dmg avoidance based build, until you run across someone who's damage is unavoidable, despite your better reaction time & better play.

I already answered that question in a previous post.

And the complaint was 'well, some people are really quick and break fear fast'. You state 'despite better reaction time', but it seems unlikely you have it if they're able to break fear so quickly you can't attack (I have seen the game often not registering the break command).

Well, some times you'll get out played, out reacted, and out skilled. It happens, it's ok. Happens to me all the time, too. Do your best, learn from the death if you died, or figure out your escape (as an NB you have some options).

Wrong, there is no way for me to attack faster, because there is a global cooldown of 1,3 seconds between skills. If it was up to me, I'd attack every 0,00001 seconds lol.

Nor is there a way to avoid these whips/concealeds by good reaction time, just like my opponent avoids getting hit while CC'd.

It has nothing to do with my reaction time, I can be a better player in every respect than my opponent, and still lose. This is called bad balance, and is not something that should be applauded.

There's no doubt that this game is poorly balanced.

But. Lava Whip/Concealed Vs Dodge Roll is not one of those things.

Dodge Roll is in a place where it is the premier defensive skill at the moment and both Magicka focused DKs and NBs are in a place where they are on the lower curve of the metagame and the current power balance. Nirnhoned has crippled both of these setups. Hopefully that changes.

Frankly, if as a dodgerolling NB with high damage from either bow or 2H, I don't understand how you're NOT killing them. Cloak away and wait for a better time (such as block being down) to strike again. Fear them, hitting a Wrecking Blow right after. Fossilize them if you're a DK. Do either repeatedly (counting six seconds until immunity wears off in your head - 1 potato, 2 potato, 3 potato... etc) until they've completely destroyed their stamina pool breaking free and then smash them.

Are you so invested into Dodge Roll with no defense of any other kind, that when it fails you die? That permablocker (who typically has a 12-13K stam pool with food on if Magicka based) suffers the same way. Problem is, EVERY skill does some damage to him when they hit him through block. Aside from a couple exceptions, every skill does ZERO damage to the dodge roller.

I've played both a Magicka DK recently and a Stamina NB. I know how to fight as and against what you're talking about. I really don't understand how you're having a problem.

Stamina NBs are the apex predator in ESO at the moment. I don't see how your build is having problems.

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Stamina NBs are the apex predator in ESO at the moment. I don't see how your build is having problems.

I could tell you but I dont want to be rude... All I can say is that he wants to be able to instagibb through block, since its already what he does on ppl afk/on horse/unprepared.

DDuke wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Defialed wrote: »

Concealed is the easiest thing to counter but of course everyone who runs stam builds complains that it's "OP". Seriously? I'm tired of hearing people fail to counter Concealed. let me give a hint: instead of roll dodging how about you try blocking? I hit for 9-10k crit concealeds atm but when someone blocks they hit for 2k. Instantly shut down.

Oh, so I should start blocking without any set bonuses or passives towards blocking, and somehow try to "outsustain" the person who is throwing those Concealeds or Whips from behind block (having built for blocking infinitely), being virtually unkillable to you?

Can you come up with another brilliant idea please?

you have speed bonuses, large part is getting away and making space.

I have fought good stam builds that instead of QQing on forums about undodgable skills they learn to outrun it or maneuver it. Remember its a melee range magicka attack.

You try to outrun these builds, you get hit by gap closers (Ambush, Crit Charge, Shielded Assault etc), some of which also bypass dodge roll.
Stamina builds do not have any bonus speed compared to other builds, unless you mean the sprint speed increase from medium armour (too bad sprinting equals suicide in PvP, when you're in range of your opponent).

Also, any kind of snare quickly ends any hope of escaping these "hold block & spam whip/concealed" builds.
Why you should be forced to escape in the first place is beyond me.

Thing is, there being builds that force you to escape since you can't kill them is something that makes instagibbing all the more prevalent. When you can't beat an opponent in a "fair" fight, you are forced to take them down before any "fair" fight can happen. This creates more & more problems for the whole balance of the game.

Is there something wrong with spamming roll dodge forever? Yes.

Should it be fixed by undodgeable attacks, to which the only counterplay is to "run away"? No.

As mentioned previously in this thread, there are other counters to roll dodge which are perfectly fine:

Jesus Beam - interruptable, cloakable
Curse - block or cloak when it goes off
Soul Assault - cloak/cleanse/interrupt
Lightning/Resto Heavy Attacks - cant be done while blocking, meaning vulnerable opponent as well
Sorc Pet - kill it

...and then we have:

Whip/Concealed Weapon - run away & try not to die while opponent is spamming them from behind block?



Having those skills bypass roll dodge is pretty much the same as if my Surprise Attacks bypassed block.

L2p with dots, shadow image or caltrop and fear every 6 secs and you will drop stamina of most of the "permablockers" pretty fast
This wont work on only few players, and those wont have high damages due to all the sacrificies they made. Then undodgeable whip are easily outhealed with rally and/or vigor. If you dont want to play with heals then deal with it.

OR there is the *** way, the dduke way as I like to call it. Stack 4.3k wep damages and try to instagibb. Then dont cry if you cant sustain a fight.

"Pretty fast", as in after 15-20 minutes? There are people tanking 10+ at the same time, you aren't going to drop the stamina of a permablocker (who knows what he's doing) alone "pretty fast".

Also, while this may be surprising to you, I should probably let you know that not everyone likes playing a FOTM sustain rollerblade stacking heals & rolling forever.

Should these builds be substandard in 1v1 fights, and only be suitable for instagibbing opponents? No, I do not think so.

If the only answer to a sustain build is another sustain build (or instagib), then something is wrong with the game balance and you'd be a fool to argue otherwise.


That said, even the FOTM rollerblades run into problems against permablockers (the ones that know how to break free), due to the undodgeable whips/concealeds/teleport strikes which mean your already low DPS is even lower since you have to reapply vigor & rally all the time while hitting your opponent for 10 damage through his block.

I'd like you to find me one stamina nightblade that has zero problems whatsoever against a permablock concealed/whip spammer. Or better yet, play one yourself so you'd atleast know what you're talking about.

There is no "permablocker" who was actally dealing decent damages and that I couldn't put oos in less than 5 minutes of fight. And I'm vampire.
The FOTM build you're talking about is made for being polyvalent and able to stay viable agaisnt every kind of ennemys. If you don't want to play it, alright, I understand why (since I don't want to play one neither) but don't say that a stamina build can't counter permablock then.
"all the time" is one rally every 20+ sec? (Idk the exact duration)+ when low health and one vigor every 5 secs. I have to reapply my harness every 4-5 seconds agaisnt those ennemys and I stil have enough damages to kill them. Btw I'm not sure you're in the best position to talk about duel meta since I've actually never seen you dueling with Arena
Suki has also a dk stamina build that is very different from FOTM that doesnt have problem agaisnt permablock concelead/whip spammer since he doesnt rely on dodgeroll and I'm sure this kind of build (sb+2h) would work too. Soulac doesnt seem to have problem agaisnt those. Your last argument is kinda funny coming from someone who never PvPed with anything but his "stamina stealth nb" (which did not prevent you to predict that blazing shield would be OP in 1.6 even if some templars told you thy tested and it sucks LOL). Btw if you give me enough gold to get a decent gear I'm ok to try to make a stamina nightblade build that works agaisnt permablock

I highlighted this in hopes you'd actually read it:

If the only answer to a sustain build is another sustain build (or instagib), then something is wrong with the game balance and you'd be a fool to argue otherwise.

Granted, I have not tried out abusing Nirnhoned (which is getting nerfed) & seeing if Vigor+Rally could keep me up from those 4-10k unavoidable whips/concealeds every 1,3 seconds, but you are not going to kill a permablocker with that (unless he's very, very bad), so you're stuck in "I deal little damage, you deal little damage, no one dies".

Also, a "stamina build" that doesn't rely on roll dodge and uses S&B+2H sounds more like a blocking/tanking focused build to me than a real stamina build.


The reason you haven't seen me duel with Arena is because of these balance issues. I either instagib everyone I duel against after a combo, or I die to 100% unavoidable concealeds/whips & detection pots. Sounds hardly interesting to me.

However, if you do want to see me dueling against Arena people, open my 4th video where you can see me dueling against people like Legendary Mage (around half way through the video), back in the days of 1.4, when everyone was laughing at stamina builds (free AP, they were called). There were not many people in the entire Arena I couldn't beat in duels.

Oh, and the Templar build? They actually did nerf damage shields (luckily). I'm sure you would've preferred them being 15% stronger in PvP right now.

That said, the Templar build still works against melee builds (I always make builds on PTS which are designed to be as bad match ups as possible against mine). Also, there was no one on the PTS who could beat the templar I built (with suboptimal gear).

Maybe you still think you're in wow or something... in this game for duels you cant have a "full sustain build" or a "full burst build", you need to combine both. Sure there is one of those aspect that you will favor, but you need to ally both if you wanna be able to kill someone. If you ask me my build is more about burst than about sustain, and I still win most of my duels agaisnt sustained build. If you try to be full burst you will kill your opponent the first time maybe in 15 seconds and not the next times. If you want to go full sustain it will be a boring draw at all your duels. I don't see the problem here.

A permablocker will never hit you for more than 5k with a whip/concelead weapon (even if you dont exploit nirn). Maybe you would know it if you had tried others speccs than the stamina stealth nightblade . My own damages are also reduced by block, I can still kill those permablocker while, as I already said, I have to refresh my harness as much as a stamina nb has to refresh his heals if he is getting attacked. And people actually kill permablockers with that, don't be so sure of you when you never saw a duel since 1.4.
I think you should really see suki dueling, sure he uses block but his damages are insane, and what ever you can say its still a stamina build with stamina attacks. I saw this vid, you use los/stealth which is now usually forbidden because its just boring when someone los/stealth mid duel. And since you've never been on duel spots, I barely see how you can really be aware of the actual duel meta/competitive builds anyway. Oh sorry, I forgot, you know everything, and you're one of the best dueller of Arena ofc )
You were still saying that the templar with max hp was op ~1 month after the 1.6 release (and the shield nerf) but maybe you forgot that. Please, don't take example of PTS, PTS is not a good indicator, first because some builds need very special gear to be good, sets that you usually dont have on PTS, second because there is a big latency. As example on PTS the melee magicka nb build was definitely shiet, I had no damages, 0 survivability and was losing most of my duels with this build while ranged syphon was working better. Without any important patchs, I now got huge damages (imo at least) and a quite decent survivability. I also win most of my fights and at the contrary, its the syphon spec that seems weak... you see what I mean? PTS doesnt prove anything.

Btw dude I'm sorry, but we both know you will never accept that you aren't aware of everything and you might be wrong on some points, your ego is too big for that.
Cya, have fun instagibbing ppl, finally something that shows your skill after all.

would be 15% stronger, without my feedback

I'm not going to answer to someone who is actually able to say that.

DDuke wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

I gave you names of stamina nb that deal with it. Soulac, Blazemaster, Liberate, Sypher... and also suki dk who doesnt rely on dodge. Of course you didnt saw it. Btw every specc has hit counter, and every specc can deal with it and kill those counter specc. You just dont want to see what others are saying because you really think you are aware of everything and skilled enough to take your own experience as only example. I would like you to learn to reconsider your position and accept that you might be wrong.

I know they are good players, but I doubt anyone whose defense revolves around roll dodging is able to take down a decent permablocker who spams whip/concealed at the moment (and you don't see these fights on their videos for a reason).

You should take your own advice and accept that you might be wrong as well, with higher probability I might add, given that I have more knowledge when it comes to stamina nightblades.

The thing is... I saw them dueling (except the last one) agaisnt permablockers, and I saw them win. You didnt. I have tried much more speccs than you I think. Ive tried endless block and its not as good as you seems to think. Btw dont get me wrong, the state of concelead wep and whip is stupid for duels, I know that but it would be more stupid if they are totally dodged next patch.
I just want to explain you (eventhough I highly doubt you accept the remark) that your thought about permablocker imba by stamina specc is bs. I know youll never accept that you dont know everything anyway.

Edit : you certainly have more knowledge about stamina nb but (if Im not wrong) you dont have vigor and didnt play a nb with 2h in 1.6... basically you played without what makes stamina nb very strong.

"Whi

DDuke wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

I gave you names of stamina nb that deal with it. Soulac, Blazemaster, Liberate, Sypher... and also suki dk who doesnt rely on dodge. Of course you didnt saw it. Btw every specc has hit counter, and every specc can deal with it and kill those counter specc. You just dont want to see what others are saying because you really think you are aware of everything and skilled enough to take your own experience as only example. I would like you to learn to reconsider your position and accept that you might be wrong.

I know they are good players, but I doubt anyone whose defense revolves around roll dodging is able to take down a decent permablocker who spams whip/concealed at the moment (and you don't see these fights on their videos for a reason).

You should take your own advice and accept that you might be wrong as well, with higher probability I might add, given that I have more knowledge when it comes to stamina nightblades.

The thing is... I saw them dueling (except the last one) agaisnt permablockers, and I saw them win. You didnt. I have tried much more speccs than you I think. Ive tried endless block and its not as good as you seems to think. Btw dont get me wrong, the state of concelead wep and whip is stupid for duels, I know that but it would be more stupid if they are totally dodged next patch.
I just want to explain you (eventhough I highly doubt you accept the remark) that your thought about permablocker imba by stamina specc is bs. I know youll never accept that you dont know everything anyway.

Edit : you certainly have more knowledge about stamina nb but (if Im not wrong) you dont have vigor and didnt play a nb with 2h in 1.6... basically you played without what makes stamina nb very strong.

Yes, and first of the names you mentioned just said in Arena guild chat there are some permablockers you just have to ignore, since they cant be killed even with 4k weapon dmg.

Maybe I'll be able to survive with Vigor & reach a keep or other friendly players before the whip/concealed spammer kills me, remains to be seen (100k off from Rank 24).

As for Momentum, can't really use that as DW/DW or DW/Bow character, which are the better ways to build for 1vX when you aren't making a rollerblade.

Regardless, I shouldn't be forced to escape, or run away (and slot two healing skills) to kill players who have built around holding right mouse button & spamming undodgeable attacks, that's ridiculous.


I understand that as a magicka NB it is probably very enjoyable at the moment, but I can assure you it is not from the stamina perspective.

There are problems with roll dodge and being able to do it infinitely, but undodgeable attacks without a viable counter outside "go sustain build" aren't the answer and the art of keeping your playerbase as a developer is making both sides happy (the magicka builds and the stamina builds).

You're definitely blind or just refuse to admit the edvidence when the answer of what you "understand" is in the post you quoted. I also have ennemys that I wont beat except if they do mistakes, but it doesnt mean their build is op.