A PVPer's Perspective on Console Release

Agrippa_Invisus · June 2015

Dear ZOS,

The console release is coming in the next few hours. Many people are already up and playing on the new console servers. I wish them fun and luck in Tamriel.

It is well past time that the remaining pre-existing community have their concerns not just addressed, but resolved. We have been infinitely patient. We have remained in game and in Tamriel. God help us, some are even still paying regularly or buying Crowns.

Many of those that remain have seen friends, acquaintances, and whole guilds vanish into the internet ether, never to return. Many with the same hue and cry; the game is broken, the lag is insane, the pvp is not balanced. In short, they did not have fun.

The first and primary issue we need resolved in a major way is the lag. Something has to be done, or at least something has to be perceived to be done. The community has turned, in full fury, on itself over and over for the lag. This. Needs. To. Be. Resolved. Console players will not tolerate, for a second, the level of lag the PC gaming community has experienced. We want you, ZOS, to fix the lag not just for us, but for ESO to be successful.

The rebalancing of 1.6/2.0, while a step in the right direction for some issues, has changed Cyrodiil for the worse, not the better. We need fights to be engaging and tactical, not the one shots of Counterstrike. Players need to be able to play and experience this game. Nothing is more exciting than a tense, close fight where decisions matter. There are already players using macros of immensely powerful abilities chained together to global players. This isn't fun and isn't consistent with the Elder Scrolls feel.

And finally, we beg of you, please be more communicative in the future. The more you talk with us and engage with us, even as frustrated and as cantankerous as we can be at times, it helps mollify the community. It's why you see so many positive responses after each post by @ZOS_BrianWheeler or @ZOS_GinaBruno. We want you to talk to us. We know you're busy, but a little sugar can make the bitter medicine of 'not until next patch' go down a little easier. We know there are trolls (it's the internet after all), but we really do want to talk to you and with you.

Please, take this time after the console release rush ends to focus on those things that are most painfully in need of attention.

Thank you.

Ghostbane · June 2015

Give that man a sweetroll. Everything that needed to be said.

Xsorus · June 2015

I can understand why they were pushing hard on Console release, that's a huge revenue stream.

They should of had someone working on Balance issues though after 1.6 however..

Never introduce a major rebalance like that, and not do an update patch afterward

sadownik · June 2015

Well said, have a glass of vodka for it.

Bouvin · June 2015

Xsorus wrote: »

I can understand why they were pushing hard on Console release, that's a huge revenue stream.

They should of had someone working on Balance issues though after 1.6 however..

Never introduce a major rebalance like that, and not do an update patch afterward

It's also a huge risk.

If they pushed console release with all the lag and PvP problems that exists.. it could be a massive failure resulting in some really bad press and a more than tarnished reputation.

ZOS_BrianWheeler · June 2015

We have been working with the Combat\Classes team for improving Cyrodiil performance while they are also constantly adjusting\analyzing items, abilities and builds. The PVP crew is hard at work on Imperial City while brewing other ideas for Campaigns to give them a different feel and addressing long standing issues like population concerns with the meta-campaign issues of alliance dominance. Obviously there's still more to do for Cyrodiil and PVP as a whole, and both the PVP and Combat\Classes teams are reading the forums and relaying these posts to each other while discussing options. Some of these options are getting more solid and will be up for discussion soon!

Erondil · June 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We have been working with the Combat\Classes team for improving Cyrodiil performance while they are also constantly adjusting\analyzing items, abilities and builds. The PVP crew is hard at work on Imperial City while brewing other ideas for Campaigns to give them a different feel and addressing long standing issues like population concerns with the meta-campaign issues of alliance dominance. Obviously there's still more to do for Cyrodiil and PVP as a whole, and both the PVP and Combat\Classes teams are reading the forums and relaying these posts to each other while discussing options. Some of these options are getting more solid and will be up for discussion soon!

As soon as the Imperial City?

Manoekin · June 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We have been working with the Combat\Classes team for improving Cyrodiil performance while they are also constantly adjusting\analyzing items, abilities and builds. The PVP crew is hard at work on Imperial City while brewing other ideas for Campaigns to give them a different feel and addressing long standing issues like population concerns with the meta-campaign issues of alliance dominance. Obviously there's still more to do for Cyrodiil and PVP as a whole, and both the PVP and Combat\Classes teams are reading the forums and relaying these posts to each other while discussing options. Some of these options are getting more solid and will be up for discussion soon!

What's up Brian. For population imbalance if you guys aren't willing to go all the way with faction changes right now could we at least get a mercenary option? Make it like the home/guest function where it locks for a certain period of time and we can fight for another faction during that time. It won't have any impact on PvE, and will allow the community to sort out some of the mess itself. As AD our only options are lag fights in Chillrend, or hope that one of the other factions invades one of the other 3 servers and stay long enough to present a challenge there.

Xsorus · June 2015

i think Imperial City will help with some population Issues

Brian Wheeler was around in DAOC and knows that it helped with the bigger Realms Zerg by drawing them into Darkness Falls to allow the smaller realms to regroup

Agrippa_Invisus · June 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We have been working with the Combat\Classes team for improving Cyrodiil performance while they are also constantly adjusting\analyzing items, abilities and builds. The PVP crew is hard at work on Imperial City while brewing other ideas for Campaigns to give them a different feel and addressing long standing issues like population concerns with the meta-campaign issues of alliance dominance. Obviously there's still more to do for Cyrodiil and PVP as a whole, and both the PVP and Combat\Classes teams are reading the forums and relaying these posts to each other while discussing options. Some of these options are getting more solid and will be up for discussion soon!

Thanks for replying, Brian!

I think I can pretty easily say that we are all eagerly looking forward to the changes you are talking about. When we start seeing them, I think you'll see a world of difference in the general mood of the forums.

We feel forgotten sometimes, and I'm glad that you've responded to show we're not.

Davenaro · June 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We have been working with the Combat\Classes team for improving Cyrodiil performance while they are also constantly adjusting\analyzing items, abilities and builds. The PVP crew is hard at work on Imperial City while brewing other ideas for Campaigns to give them a different feel and addressing long standing issues like population concerns with the meta-campaign issues of alliance dominance. Obviously there's still more to do for Cyrodiil and PVP as a whole, and both the PVP and Combat\Classes teams are reading the forums and relaying these posts to each other while discussing options. Some of these options are getting more solid and will be up for discussion soon!

That all sounds great. But we would all like you guys to take action on this stuff very very soon. This game has so much potential. That's the only reason i have not left yet.

Armitas · June 2015

Can haz him for PvP ambassador?

vortexman11 · June 2015

Don't be offended Brian, I'm sure what you're doing is great, and I appreciate all the work you and your team is putting into making this Imperial City. But seriously. SERIOUSLY. I don't care much about this new PvP area anymore than I'd care about you adding an extra keep into Cyrodiil. We don't want you putting resources into adding a new zone that will lag just as much, and will contain just as much broken/unbalanced PvP as the rest of Cyrodiil. We want you putting resources into fixing what you have already.

In my opinion you know what makes PvP better than PvE? The fact that its always changing, you're always fighting a new opponent, or the same one who has changed his build or play style. You could give us a flat, colourless, map with no keeps, outposts, gates, or resources and PvP will STILL be entertaining.

We don't need new PvP zones! We need PvP to be fixed. PLEASE if you've listened at all to any major PvP-er in this game you'll know thats all they want...and if thats what the player base wants, doesn't it make sense to put more resources into that then into adding a new zone?

Bouvin · June 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We have been working with the Combat\Classes team for improving Cyrodiil performance while they are also constantly adjusting\analyzing items, abilities and builds. The PVP crew is hard at work on Imperial City while brewing other ideas for Campaigns to give them a different feel and addressing long standing issues like population concerns with the meta-campaign issues of alliance dominance. Obviously there's still more to do for Cyrodiil and PVP as a whole, and both the PVP and Combat\Classes teams are reading the forums and relaying these posts to each other while discussing options. Some of these options are getting more solid and will be up for discussion soon!

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Step 1. Lower AP gains from full or nearly full groups, by about a factor of 10. This will help eliminate the incentive to run in such large groups and help to reduce lag.

Step 2. As you've proposed, more objectives to spread players out. But I'd also consider more objectives on the main Cyrodil map in addition to Imperial city. More objectives = more spots to take or defend, which a single large zerg cannot do.

These take away the two incentives that zergs have. AP gains and easily taking important objectives quickly while still being able to defend (by keep porting).

Essentially, PvP as it is now, only incentivizes zergs. There's no reason players shouldn't zerg with current mechanics because it's not only the best and fastest way to get AP but the most likelihood of capturing keeps. Remove those incentives and watch the zergs dissipate, along with the lag they are causing.

Edited: Spelling

Jules · June 2015

Fantastic and eloquent write up Agrippa. Thanks for addressing these important issues.

tinythinker · June 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We have been working with the Combat\Classes team for improving Cyrodiil performance while they are also constantly adjusting\analyzing items, abilities and builds. The PVP crew is hard at work on Imperial City while brewing other ideas for Campaigns to give them a different feel and addressing long standing issues like population concerns with the meta-campaign issues of alliance dominance. Obviously there's still more to do for Cyrodiil and PVP as a whole, and both the PVP and Combat\Classes teams are reading the forums and relaying these posts to each other while discussing options. Some of these options are getting more solid and will be up for discussion soon!

Thanks so much! Looking forward to it.

Agrippa_Invisus · June 2015

Jules wrote: »

Fantastic and eloquent write up Agrippa. Thanks for addressing these important issues.

Thanks, Jules!

Hypertionb14_ESO · June 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We have been working with the Combat\Classes team for improving Cyrodiil performance while they are also constantly adjusting\analyzing items, abilities and builds. The PVP crew is hard at work on Imperial City while brewing other ideas for Campaigns to give them a different feel and addressing long standing issues like population concerns with the meta-campaign issues of alliance dominance. Obviously there's still more to do for Cyrodiil and PVP as a whole, and both the PVP and Combat\Classes teams are reading the forums and relaying these posts to each other while discussing options. Some of these options are getting more solid and will be up for discussion soon!

at this point excuse me while a take anything said with a grain of salt.

too many disappointments.

NukeAllTheThings · June 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We have been working with the Combat\Classes team for improving Cyrodiil performance while they are also constantly adjusting\analyzing items, abilities and builds. The PVP crew is hard at work on Imperial City while brewing other ideas for Campaigns to give them a different feel and addressing long standing issues like population concerns with the meta-campaign issues of alliance dominance. Obviously there's still more to do for Cyrodiil and PVP as a whole, and both the PVP and Combat\Classes teams are reading the forums and relaying these posts to each other while discussing options. Some of these options are getting more solid and will be up for discussion soon!

Brian, thank you for responding but I have to say it is a little disappointing to read. We are still at the point of hearing about the team looking into options and hoping some of these might be solid enough to even have discussions about them. You posted some thoughts about changes back in mid March that had many of us excited because your team seemed prepared to try something new instead of letting Cyrodiil and PVP die on the vine. Unfortunately many of those things you wanted to try didn't make it into the game, but at least there was public discussion and a perceived intent to make changes.

I think many/most of us still playing daily believe that when this game is functioning properly it is one of, if not THE best games on the market. Sadly those moments are few and far between and seem to be getting fewer by the day. I sincerely hope that you guys start advancing past the research & internal discussion phase and get into the action phase. You have multiple campaigns that are dead you can try changes on....you have a PTS sitting there empty that you can try things on. We as a community would do just about anything the help in sorting this all out and would test changes like crazy. You have the makings of something pretty amazing, please don't let it continue to die without putting those thoughts and discussions into action.

Turelus · June 2015

Bouvin wrote: »

Step 1. Lower AP gains from full or nearly full groups, by about a factor of 10. This will help eliminate the incentive to run in such large groups and help to reduce lag.

There are already less gains for a large group over a smaller one, and do we really want to go down the route of creating incentives not to play with others in an MMO.
Additionally this won't break up the groups/lag because you can just run three groups of eight right along side each other and gain the same results. The only negative is not knowing where the main raid leader is.

Bouvin wrote: »

Essentially, PvP as it is now, only incentivizes zergs. There's no reason players shouldn't zerg with current mechanics because it's not only the best and fastest way to get AP but the most likelihood of capturing keeps. Remove those incentives and watch the zergs dissipate, along with the lag they are causing.

The incentives for "zergs" is not AP it's winning the fight. This has been true of any MMO without hard capped arena PVP, eventually no matter the level of skill players have larger numbers will result in victory. Players gather together in large groups and then ball up because it's the most effective way to get the most damage and best healing.

If we want to break groups up we need to be looking at ways to force them to split their forces. Mechanics like only being able to take keeps when you hold 2/3 of the resources or something, this means factions can't place all their forces in one locations because they have to hold onto two additional strategic locations.
The above idea isn't the perfect solution however and is far from balanced but it gives an idea on the kind of changes needed to break up groups, this is something CCP Games of EVE Online are looking into doing right now for their Sovereignty capture mechanics, hoping to break the 2000 player battles down into smaller ones across the constellation.

* Edit my horrible spelling.

Awe · June 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We have been working with the Combat\Classes team for improving Cyrodiil performance while they are also constantly adjusting\analyzing items, abilities and builds. The PVP crew is hard at work on Imperial City while brewing other ideas for Campaigns to give them a different feel and addressing long standing issues like population concerns with the meta-campaign issues of alliance dominance. Obviously there's still more to do for Cyrodiil and PVP as a whole, and both the PVP and Combat\Classes teams are reading the forums and relaying these posts to each other while discussing options. Some of these options are getting more solid and will be up for discussion soon!

working... soon....
you do not have any time left
NA server PvP is 90% dead, several camps owned by 1 ally with other allies have 1 bar population, 1 camp has some fights, rare having 3 bar pop on all sides. (+ non vet having 3 bar pop fights sometimes)

Raizin · June 2015

yea imperial city is coming soon for a year now... yeaaa,noooo.....

fix the lag yo, then worry about other stuff thanks., or give us battlegrounds, then cyrodil ll be so low populated then u dont have to worry about lag anymore

(like those arenas u showd a year ago on quakon - "must be rly hard" to implement them)

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO · June 2015

It is not just numbers that cause lag, it is the spamming if specific abilities in the game. You can see a group of 50 to 80 enemies attack and the game works just fine, but then you can see 20 people at another time who spam those abilities and bang nothing works except for those abilities after a delay.

As a stopgap measure, just start with disabling meteor in Cyrodiil and you will see that much of the lag will go away.

People don't have access to meteor on Blackwater and on that server zergs don't cause lag the same way that you see on the v14 servers. Also Shadow Cloak actually works there because it is the lag that prevent the cloak from avoiding damage, which then disables the cloak.

Problem is that the second you remove meteor, certain creative groups will find another way to create lag where the lag creator ability still works, so you guys still need to fix the cause of the lag in your basic coding or else pvp will never be an element that will provide you income.

Lionxoft · June 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We have been working with the Combat\Classes team for improving Cyrodiil performance while they are also constantly adjusting\analyzing items, abilities and builds. The PVP crew is hard at work on Imperial City while brewing other ideas for Campaigns to give them a different feel and addressing long standing issues like population concerns with the meta-campaign issues of alliance dominance. Obviously there's still more to do for Cyrodiil and PVP as a whole, and both the PVP and Combat\Classes teams are reading the forums and relaying these posts to each other while discussing options. Some of these options are getting more solid and will be up for discussion soon!

More than a year later and work still continues on the Imperial City. That must be a hell of a chunk of content or it will be a completely disaster leaving the community scratching their heads. Let's do the first one.

Lionxoft · June 2015

NukeAllTheThings wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We have been working with the Combat\Classes team for improving Cyrodiil performance while they are also constantly adjusting\analyzing items, abilities and builds. The PVP crew is hard at work on Imperial City while brewing other ideas for Campaigns to give them a different feel and addressing long standing issues like population concerns with the meta-campaign issues of alliance dominance. Obviously there's still more to do for Cyrodiil and PVP as a whole, and both the PVP and Combat\Classes teams are reading the forums and relaying these posts to each other while discussing options. Some of these options are getting more solid and will be up for discussion soon!

I think many/most of us still playing daily believe that when this game is functioning properly it is one of, if not THE best games on the market. Sadly those moments are few and far between and seem to be getting fewer by the day

I'm extremely negative towards the game and ZOS but I do agree 100% with this statement. Sadly, I expect things to work properly a year after launch. I still think it's possible to turn the ship around but I have to see it to believe it at this point.

Zheg · June 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We have been working with the Combat\Classes team for improving Cyrodiil performance while they are also constantly adjusting\analyzing items, abilities and builds. The PVP crew is hard at work on Imperial City while brewing other ideas for Campaigns to give them a different feel and addressing long standing issues like population concerns with the meta-campaign issues of alliance dominance. Obviously there's still more to do for Cyrodiil and PVP as a whole, and both the PVP and Combat\Classes teams are reading the forums and relaying these posts to each other while discussing options. Some of these options are getting more solid and will be up for discussion soon!

When I see you start giving the myriad of pvp issues the same priority as you do to hot-fixing XP grinding, I'll start to actually believe you guys are taking things seriously. You've gone months without so much as a post while pvp has degraded into the cesspool that it currently is, and from the DC side of things, we have it even worse. While a few posts today breaks the dry spell, providing vague responses that say things like "they're hard at work on something they've been working on since launch" (paraphrasing your imperial city reference) rings hollow.

If I sound jaded, it's because I am, and because you sir have a long way to go towards earning back any kind of credit with the pvp community. Frankly, at this point I would be ecstatic if you and the rest of the devs would just give Gina the go-ahead to be allowed to communicate on your behalf and have free-reign of info, because I'm sure other players feel similar when I say that just seeing your name pop up in this section of the forums makes my eye twitch. Gina used to do feedback sessions with our DC pvp guild, but right now I doubt we could even muster enough people from our friends list to pretend to be guild members to make a decent showing for her. You're supposed to be the steward of the pvp portion of the game, and I need only mention the current state of pvp to make a reference to what players think of the job you're doing.

To be fair, ZOS across the board has demonstrated an impressive lack of communication and proper priorities, so it's not just you. By all means, continue reading this kind of feedback and relaying it between yourselves while nothing gets done; those of us still playing will keep posting it. I can't wait to see what my 1 bar of DC pop looks like once some of them leave for console.

leeux · June 2015

((Disclaimer: I know that this is a thread in the Alliance War section, so I'm sorry to bring this example from PvE-land... but I feel it's an issue worth mentioning))

Look at the video of the guys burning through VDSA bosses in like 10s, and tell me, honestly, if you think the game is not messed up as it is right now.

I cannot believe that the designers of that content intended the for it to be played like that... it was supposed to be the most tactical content in the game, requiring coordination and positioning. Current builds makes all that unnecessary, and is a signal that, IMO, current balancing issues are not only a Cyrodiil problem, but an all encompassing issue with the current state of the game.

Some kind of regression to saner levels has to be done, maybe detaching damage abilities from the attribute stacking... perhaps a redesign of certain sets that makes possible for people to reach 5000+ weapon power for some hits... maybe reduce the sustainability of such builds... Or even maybe change abilities to have less synergy in damage stacking options for some weapons. As it is, the game in this current state it's madness...

IMHO that would also help to alleviate (maybe just a bit, maybe a lot) the current problems you're having in the alliance war zone. (Reduce the needing for clustering in large groups... reduce the spamming of certain lag-inducing abilities... etc.)

Just my humble (non expert) opinion...

Attorneyatlawl · June 2015

Xsorus wrote: »

i think Imperial City will help with some population Issues

Brian Wheeler was around in DAOC and knows that it helped with the bigger Realms Zerg by drawing them into Darkness Falls to allow the smaller realms to regroup

Yep, it sure did... /signed a DAOC player from launch until early-mid 2008 with breaks no longer than a week or two. I mentioned that exact thing earlier this evening; I guess great minds think alike

.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

There's currently a 10% bonus to AP gains if you're receiving the Underdog Scoring bonus. There's also a 10% bonus to AP gains if you're getting the Under population bonus as well.

This will be getting increased in a coming patch along with adjustments to the population/scoring polling which applies these bonuses.

This is great news Brian!

If this is adjusted correctly, this could help alleviate the problems immensely.

thank you for taking the time to give us a response. I appreciate it.

This. The current bonus level really isn't enough to entice people to come out and fight if the numbers are uneven right now. However, raised some, it would help. As the Imperial City rolls in too, that will siphon off some of the dominant faction's players like darkness falls did in daoc. It wasn't just a cool place but also a balancing mechanism.

Zheg · June 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

i think Imperial City will help with some population Issues

Brian Wheeler was around in DAOC and knows that it helped with the bigger Realms Zerg by drawing them into Darkness Falls to allow the smaller realms to regroup

Yep, it sure did... /signed a DAOC player from launch until early-mid 2008 with breaks no longer than a week or two. I mentioned that exact thing earlier this evening; I guess great minds think alike .

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

There's currently a 10% bonus to AP gains if you're receiving the Underdog Scoring bonus. There's also a 10% bonus to AP gains if you're getting the Under population bonus as well.

This will be getting increased in a coming patch along with adjustments to the population/scoring polling which applies these bonuses.

This is great news Brian!

If this is adjusted correctly, this could help alleviate the problems immensely.

thank you for taking the time to give us a response. I appreciate it.

This. The current bonus level really isn't enough to entice people to come out and fight if the numbers are uneven right now. However, raised some, it would help. As the Imperial City rolls in too, that will siphon off some of the dominant faction's players like darkness falls did in daoc. It wasn't just a cool place but also a balancing mechanism.

Call me a pessimist, but I see our current DC pops, realize the fact that some will leave for console and further reduce our numbers, and anticipate the scenario where EP/AD realize they can make massive AP farming DC as they try to get enough keeps to even be able to enter imperial city. When EP is waiting in queue for 30+ minutes and DC has 1 or 2 bars, it boggles my mind that the pvp crew at ZOS think this update is going to be some kind of panacea. They should have been working on population imbalances and the lopsided buff system a year ago. And when I say working, I mean pushing out tangible fixes and hot-fixes, but the ZOS definition of working on something. Starting now after the amount of players that have been lost is /facepalm worthy.

wraith808 · June 2015

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

at this point excuse me while a take anything said with a grain of salt.

too many disappointments.

Lionxoft wrote: »

More than a year later and work still continues on the Imperial City. That must be a hell of a chunk of content or it will be a completely disaster leaving the community scratching their heads. Let's do the first one.

Everybody knows (or should know) that the reason we haven't had anything was to stabilize console release. Give the man a chance after the release before unleashing the salt.

Zheg · June 2015

wraith808 wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

at this point excuse me while a take anything said with a grain of salt.

too many disappointments.

Lionxoft wrote: »

More than a year later and work still continues on the Imperial City. That must be a hell of a chunk of content or it will be a completely disaster leaving the community scratching their heads. Let's do the first one.

Everybody knows (or should know) that the reason we haven't had anything was to stabilize console release. Give the man a chance after the release before unleashing the salt.

Uhhh, in your spare time go through the older pages of the pvp forums back until, say, launch, and you'll see that this isn't some new disaster that sprang up and couldn't be worked on because they had to prioritize console for a few months. PVP has been allowed to degrade for a VERY long while, and the man in charge of it just went months without a single post. We're past being salty, we're ready to fling poo at him.'

If ZOS can't do more than one thing for 4+ months straight, they shouldn't be running an mmo like ESO. Console was supposed to be launched when PC did 14+ months ago. Imperial City was supposed to be ready around PC launch. So yes, everyone should take what he say with a grain of salt.