About the "endgame" that everyone complains...

Earelith · June 2015

@Lord Xanhorn this thread s about opinions..gear treadmill is not something extra or a side game that you chose to participate or not..there are many mmos having that endgame style, actually the majority. I would say the same thing too..why do you want to turn one of the few MMO that dont treat us like rats in a wheel, into a gear treadmill and dont just play one of the many others?

Also there is no prestige in raid gear..prestige is to become emperor or to become a grand marshal in old wow pvp. Logging 3 times per week for 5 months to do the same raid does not give prestige in my opinion. Also if you want to do "high skilled" content as you say you can go do GW2 ranked pvp and tell us the results so we, the low skilled players, see what a high skill player can do.

The biggest problem in MMOs is that wow have created the false assumption that raid = skill...

BuggeX · June 2015

PVP is my Endgame atm, *** i Need more Skillpoints.

If i Need a brake becaus, lags, well i do my goldplegde or go farmin some Crux to stack even more mres, well allready be over the cap of 50%...., well sometiomes im just going fishing for 1-2 hours, a bit of classic Music and fishing.

Or i go helping my guildis.

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and if i rly dont want to Play teso atm, im going outside, yes Outside

Seth_Black wrote: »

Got all the achievements? All the best gear? ...then you can get bored

sitenote, you cant get all achivments atm, there are no 1500 quest aviable:p

DDuke · June 2015

Earelith wrote: »

@Lord Xanhorn this thread s about opinions..gear treadmill is not something extra or a side game that you chose to participate or not..there are many mmos having that endgame style, actually the majority. I would say the same thing too..why do you want to turn one of the few MMO that dont treat us like rats in a wheel, into a gear treadmill and dont just play one of the many others?

Also there is no prestige in raid gear..prestige is to become emperor or to become a grand marshal in old wow pvp. Logging 3 times per week for 5 months to do the same raid does not give prestige in my opinion. Also if you want to do "high skilled" content as you say you can go do GW2 ranked pvp and tell us the results so we, the low skilled players, see what a high skill player can do.

The biggest problem in MMOs is that wow have created the false assumption that raid = skill...

I dont think anyone is suggesting the gear should come from raids alone. In an ideal MMO, best gear comes from multiple avenues. You like PvP? Do PvP, get strong gear from PvP. You like PvE? Do PvE, get strong gear from PvE.

You mention WoW & prestige. Coincidentally, achieving Warlord rank in WoW awarded you with very strong epic gear (atleast back in the vanilla/TBC days, when there still were PvP ranks). After they removed the Honor system, best gear obtainable by PvP came from Arenas.

Also, no one is saying raid = skill, so no need for straw men thank you.

Does high end PvE raids require skill? Yes, in good MMOs.
Does high end PvP also require skill? Yes, in good MMOs.

Should both be rewarding? Absolutely.
Should grinding goblins be more rewarding than previously mentioned? Absolutely not.

Seth_Black · June 2015

BuggeX wrote: »

sitenote, you cant get all achivments atm, there are no 1500 quest aviable:p

I know

...that's the point

Valymer · June 2015

Lord Xanhorn wrote: »

I'm sorry but I agree with DDuke. Is this thread for real?

This thread is filled with people who want to do low skill content by themselves and not have anyone else in the game more prestigious than them. If you don't want to raid or group or do otherwise challenging content and you just want to log on and grind rats and pick flowers, why the heck do you think that is what everyone should want to do? If there is a gear treadmill and you don't want to partake, just don't get on it. Don't take joy in destroying that fun for others just so there inst someone in town that looks or is more awesome gearwise than your character.

There is no alternative to the geargrind in this game. So there is just nothing which is why max level people are leaving in droves.

Huh?

The point is that there is no challenging content, except maybe a single trial. And as DDuke pointed out, there is no gear treadmill because endgame PvE gear is largely trash now and PvP gear is all tradeable.

And as you yourself stated, that is why max level people are leaving for other games.

Lord Xanhorn · June 2015

Earelith wrote: »

@Lord Xanhorn this thread s about opinions..gear treadmill is not something extra or a side game that you chose to participate or not..there are many mmos having that endgame style, actually the majority. I would say the same thing too..why do you want to turn one of the few MMO that dont treat us like rats in a wheel, into a gear treadmill and dont just play one of the many others?

1st
There's another thing that I don't understand. Just because other games have it means it shouldn't be in this game? Maybe we should delete the strafe left button, or the jump action, or the killing mobs function. I mean other games out there allow you to kill mobs so our game should be different. This argument holds absolutely no water whatsoever. All MMOs share basic fundamental concepts that without them, it wouldn't even be a game. So please stop with the 'other games have it so we don't need it' shtick.

2nd
There's many things in many MMOs that I don't enjoy. I am not a big fan of PVP so generally I avoid it. I prefer high end difficult co op PVE. But just because I don't enjoy it doesn't mean I go around saying that it shouldn't be in this game. I still don't know what gives people the right to say because they don't want to participate in a gear progression system that said system shouldn't exist. If there was a system and you didn't want to partake, you could still log on and do all the non fun crap you're doing right now. I don't get it.

Earelith · June 2015

@DDuke I just dont understand why the reward should be gear with better stats..this creates an endless treadmill. Get x gear and by the time you manage to get it, y gear must be ready to hunt while now x gear is much more easily obtainable..the z gear is released and so on...

Dionysusjones · June 2015

Lord Xanhorn wrote: »

I'm sorry but I agree with DDuke. Is this thread for real?

This thread is filled with people who want to do low skill content by themselves and not have anyone else in the game more prestigious than them. If you don't want to raid or group or do otherwise challenging content and you just want to log on and grind rats and pick flowers, why the heck do you think that is what everyone should want to do? If there is a gear treadmill and you don't want to partake, just don't get on it. Don't take joy in destroying that fun for others just so there inst someone in town that looks or is more awesome gearwise than your character.

There is no alternative to the geargrind in this game. So there is just nothing which is why max level people are leaving in droves.

Lets be honest here. Nobody has maxed out CP yet. So YES there is an endgame, people just dont like it. Thats OK you dont have to like the way endgame has been implemented but to say it doesnt exist is not entirely true. We have been Pavlov's dogged so many times to get new treats every six months that subtle progression doesnt even register anymore. However..........

Respectfully Disagree that geargrinders are the only way to make a proper end game. Creating gear grinding "seasons" then raising the level cap essentially pressing the reset button for everyone is by leaps and bounds the most unoriginal and lazy development scheme used in online games today. It deteriorates boss fights and burns through content at a rapid rate where eventually you have huge swaths of zones that are just complete ghost towns.

Imagine an "endgame" where best in slot gear / second best gear for slot x etc was spanned across multiple zones , many different raids created years apart. What would this do? It would create an endgame community that could easily integrate "new" max level characters while still giving seasoned vets a reason to re-visit content. It also means that one hard boss from 3 years ago is still tough to beat. This design becomes problematic in ESO's current state because for some odd reason they have already decided to give characters thousands and thousands of HP/MP. A lateral gear system only works if the gap between gear is ever so slight as opposed to the vast canyon presented in most gear seasons.

This is just one way to put some variety in our online experience. I'm tired of the same old gimmicks and game play options and honestly so is everyone else or they would still be playing (that other game) w.e that might be.

As gamers we need to start to encourage originality and outside the box implementations of gameplay. Free your mind from the last 10/20 year GAME treadmill. Lets demand something new.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Uncouth Jokes]

Earelith · June 2015

@Lord Xanhorn and just because other games have it does not mean that this game should have it too. Games are different and each game has its own systems, and in the first post i described 4 different systems. Just because you like one of them, does not mean all games should have that system..

There are different games available now and people chose what they like. You wont see me in wow forums asking to abort raiding and introduce champion points though..i just dont play that game and chose this. Just because you prefer one style does not make it the best.

Aeeeek · June 2015

I'm in an EVE corp but mostly solo, still EVE is about other players being out to kill me, avoid that = win.
Mostly play Cyrodil like that, but if a group is carelessly PvE rampaging I'll help the environment.

Also, I'm a fisher so my Alt is grinding CP's as a byproduct of more worms for my main,

DDuke · June 2015

Earelith wrote: »

@DDuke I just dont understand why the reward should be gear with better stats..this creates an endless treadmill. Get x gear and by the time you manage to get it, y gear must be ready to hunt while now x gear is much more easily obtainable..the z gear is released and so on...

Why should it be generic "XP", giving you artificial points in order to keep up with other players?

I much prefer personalized, interesting drops with different effects & power levels from epic raid bosses, than generic "XP", and I think I can speak for the majority of people who have ever done end game raiding here.

I also prefer getting strong rewards from PvP in form of gear, rather than the same generic "XP" you get from everything else.

Don't you get it? "XP" is just as much of a treadmill as the "gear progression" you fear, only it rewards players based on their time played alone, instead of their skill level.

The choice is basicly whether you want a dumbed down experience (pun), or personalized & interesting rewards in form of loot (to note: you can atleast visually see these, unlike Champion Points).

Or maybe you want both? Even that is better than having only goblin grinding.

Lord Xanhorn · June 2015

Dionysusjones wrote: »

Imagine an "endgame" where best in slot gear / second best gear for slot x etc was spanned across multiple zones , many different raids created years apart. What would this do? It would create an endgame community that could easily integrate "new" max level characters while still giving seasoned vets a reason to re-visit content. It also means that one hard boss from 3 years ago is still tough to beat. This design becomes problematic in ESO's current state because for some odd reason they have already decided to give characters thousands and thousands of HP/MP. A lateral gear system only works if the gap between gear is ever so slight as opposed to the vast canyon presented in most gear seasons.

This is just one way to put some variety in our online experience. I'm tired of the same old gimmicks and game play options and honestly so is everyone else or they would still be playing (that other game) w.e that might be.

As gamers we need to start to encourage originality and outside the box implementations of gameplay. Free your mind from the last 10/20 year GAME treadmill. Lets demand something new.

I actually agree with you on this. I wouldn't mind a long epic road filled with a variety of different activities to produce great gear. I am on board with that. And I don't necessarily believe the gear grind way WoW does it is the best option. But that's not what we have in this game. We have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. There's no WoW gear grind or alternative. There's just nothing.

I don't consider CP as progression cause as Duke said, its only a matter of mindless no fun time to get these. The CP system is designed to give you a very small reward for doing other fun stuff you are already doing. Its not designed to be the primary method of advancing your character.

idk · June 2015

Do not forget about the company's concerning the quality and quantity of end game content as it pales to those MMOs it wished to compete against. Trial boss fights demonstrate a lack of any sense of creativity and Imagination.

I've seen MMOs improve in their end game content design before and hold onto hope ESO will become better in its second and third year.

$infraction2008b16_ESO$ · June 2015

Earelith wrote: »

Personally I much prefer the ESO style of game content. You can advance at your own pace by doing whatever you like..

Nope it forces you into grinding due to champion gain being linked to xp and the things that should give xp give lack of it while the things that shouldn't give too much xp give it in abundance.

The champion system would be much better if it rewarded you points for actions (like daily objectives) rather than how many monsters you killed.

DDuke · June 2015

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

I've seen MMOs improve in their end game content design before and hold onto hope ESO will become better in its second and third year.

This is actually the only reason I'm still playing this game. Sad, isn't it?

ZOS is lucky there aren't any new AAA MMOs releasing in near future.

Aeeeek · June 2015

infraction2008b16_ESO wrote: »

The champion system would be much better if it rewarded you points for actions (like daily objectives) rather than how many monsters you killed.

God how I hate dailies, every patch I get to miss out playing because of timezone.

Earelith · June 2015

@DDuke the difference is that xp does not reset or getting "cheaper" as time pass..you are slowly climbing higher and those behind you will climb the exact same distance. Also there are no fixed number of xp you can get per day or week. These 2 reasons are crusial for me.

DDuke · June 2015

Earelith wrote: »

@DDuke the difference is that xp does not reset or getting "cheaper" as time pass..you are slowly climbing higher and those behind you will climb the exact same distance. Also there are no fixed number of xp you can get per day or week. These 2 reasons are crusial for me.

Gear doesn't reset either.

New gear gets added.

Also, gear becoming more accessible is really more of a concern about seasonal gear than gear progression itself.

In vanilla WoW for instance, no gear became more easily accessible. You had to go through Molten Core & gear up before attempting BWL, and gear up in BWL before attempting Naxx/AQ.

More ideal than "welfare epics" for sure in my opinion, but problems arise when more & more tiers of content are added and new players enter the game, which is why "seasonal gear" is the solution in most MMOs.

I believe even seasonal gear can be made properly, by having Tier 1 gear become easily available only after Tier 3 or 4 is released (as opposed to Tier 2).

As for "slowly climbing higher", what are you climbing after all? A pile of goblins?

I don't think many people find that interesting.

If you aren't climbing a pile of goblins, then you are simply getting further & further behind the grind bots, to the point where power difference is greater than any gear could possibly provide, and you are going to get hit with a sucker punch by these grinders, since there is no visual representation they are the kings of Goblin Cave, unlike with gear (e.g. "wow, that guy has Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros". It's going to be a tough fight").

Earelith · June 2015

@DDuke

1) Vanilla/TBC wow gear treadmill was much better than current wow, I have to agree on this.

2) Consoles will not have bot grinders but either way I don't mind to get behind as far as I know that what I have achieved will not have its value/price decreased.

3) You got obsessed with that goblin grind thing. While it is the most efficient way right now, no one told you to do it that way if you don't enjoy it.

What I think, is that some tweaks need to be done, so completing a dungeon/trial or defending/capturing a keep in pvp or questing/exploring will be as much efficient and fast as grind. But not to change that system into something else.

DDuke · June 2015

Earelith wrote: »

@DDuke

1) Vanilla/TBC wow gear treadmill was much better than current wow, I have to agree on this.

2) Consoles will not have bot grinders but either way I don't mind to get behind as far as I know that what I have achieved will not have its value/price decreased.

3) You got obsessed with that goblin grind thing. While it is the most efficient way right now, no one told you to do it that way if you don't enjoy it.

What I think, is that some tweaks need to be done, so completing a dungeon/trial or defending/capturing a keep in pvp or questing/exploring will be as much efficient and fast as grind. But not to change that system into something else.

If they make dungeons/"exploring" (sorry, but who hasn't explored everything in the game already?) grant more XP, then that simply becomes the new grind, and the one doing it 24/7 reaps the benefits.

Sure, you dont have to grind goblins (or whatever else happens to be most efficient way of gaining CPs) if you don't enjoy it, but nor do you have to grind gear either if you don't enjoy it (though as stated before, in good MMOs it comes naturally doing what you enjoy doing, be it PvE or PvP). I fail to see the point of this monologue.

In both cases, not doing something you don't enjoy leads to you falling behind the competition, but much more so actually with the Champion System, since there are virtually no caps on how much benefit you can reap by simply playing 24/7 without any skill involved.

Emma_Overload · June 2015

The LAST thing ESO needs right now is more 12-man raid content. The problem isn't the content itself, which is fine, but the expectations of many of the players who enjoy this content. What are those expectations?

1) Gear rewards that are superior to any gear that can be crafted or acquired in any way other than raiding.

2) Gear rewards that are Bind-on-Pickup, so that no one outside their cozy little clubs can acquire them second hand.

I'm sure I've seen a dozen forum threads since the 1.6 update of raiders belly-aching because Trial drops don't seem (to them) that much better than other gear anymore. These people just seem oblivious to the problems created by having rewards that are dropped exclusively for large, organized groups. This means that even the most hard-working, skilled players have NO chance at attaining the most desirable gear if they aren't able to find and join a large group!

ZoS has made this situation so much worse because they refuse to address the failure of the LFG tool to accomplish its mission. Fixing bugs is not enough... you have to make the LFG tool do its frickin' job: FORM GROUPS. The consequence of this failure is that ZoS has offloaded responsibility for the raid grouping process onto 3rd party organizations called guilds. This is terrible, in my opinion, because it forces the individual player to plead for the acceptance of other players in order to play the game. I role-play as a bad-ass, not a brown-noser... why do I need someone else's permission to kill a monster?

If they want the masses of ESO players to enjoy 12-man content, ZoS needs to make the grouping process way more efficient and egalitarian. I played Counter-Strike for 8 years, and I NEVER had to wait more then 5 minutes to get into the action, regardless of how big the teams were. I never had to join a guild to enjoy the game, either, although I was occasionally invited to join one. ESO needs to have some sort of non-discriminatory queuing process for group content, content which is tuned and scaled appropriately for arbitrarily formed groups. This probably means that players will need to be "auto-leveled" for the duration of the raid, but ESO already does this for PvP, so I don't see that this would cause any big problems.

Regardless of how ZoS solves the grouping problem, they need to release some proper endgame content for solo, duo and small group players before they even THINK about releasing more 12-man raids. Craglorn was rushed out within a few weeks of launch... how long have the rest of us been waiting for Wrothgar? A YEAR! There's nothing much for VR14 players like me to do except solo 4-man dungeons and Craglorn delves and, of course, "grind goblins" as @DDuke put it. None of these activities offer exciting rewards, and it's high time ZoS addressed the needs of this large segment of the player base.

Zorrashi · June 2015

The main reason I still play ESO is the lack of a prominent gear treadmill.
It is simply far too demanding (in my opinion) with how those treadmills are created with progressive repetitive raids. More often than not the gear attained from such systems feel more like a means to an end than an actual reward and that's in addition to what I view as a rather dull raiding experience. Add in the fact that such activities are usually reserved for a particular small niche of players, and I find the mere idea of progressive raiding to be dreadfully boring once the initial joy wears off.

The current system may have some flaws, but the perks can be obtained through a variety of in-game activities and that is what keeps me entertained because it fails to remain so monotonous for long periods of time in most situations.

NewBlacksmurf · June 2015

Earelith wrote: »

After playing so many MMOs over the last Decade, I really believe that ESO is the best MMO. Some people complain about the so called and famous "endgame" but I find ESO progression system the best of all.

3) The ESO style. No gear treadmill but you continue progress your characters slowly through the champion points system. This method does not funnel you through a specific way of play and does not punish you by having and playing alts. There may be a more efficient and less efficient ways to progress that way, but the key is that there are alternatives.

You can play however you like, whoever character you like and still progress in your own pace..It may leave a gap between veteran and new players, but on the same time does not throw to the garbage all your "hard earning" progression, nor giving for free to others what you achieved, like the (1) method.

Personally I much prefer the ESO style of game content. You can advance at your own pace by doing whatever you like..You can just go grind mobs, or do a dungeon, or do some pvp, or play an alt, explore, do achievement. And all of these without daily/weekly caps that "force" you to do all or some of them each day/week. You have the complete freedom to play the game the way you like it and you still progress..

I agree with one exception you left out... VR levels

Can they just go away and keep everything else as you described.....(beats the horse again and the horse next to the dead one that is still alive)

Amsel_McKay · June 2015

In my opinion EQ had the best Endgame... It had gear (that was rare), It had *** (into the 1000s), it had locked progression, and it had CONTENT.

The problem with EQ was simple after people played the end game for 3 or 4 years to keep the end game going they added more gear more content etc etc until the gap between a new char and old was impossible...

BUT the hard end game was hard the old end game was easy for example it took a HUGE raid to clear PoG, but 2 years later my Cleric, Necro and Beastlord could easy solo that whole place.

The weird thing about ESO is there is no end game really a few very small challenges, my hope is that once console comes out new DLC will contain end game fun. I also hope that the end game is: solo, PvP, large raid and gear...

Knootewoot · June 2015

I don't need rewards for PvP as it's rewarding for me just to be able to be part of it. Once they start hand out armors with uber stats as rewards, they have to keep making new and better all the time. In a small time gear stats, not the player skill, will determine the outcome of a battle.

That's why i also don't like gear progression. It's a never ending progress and also has issues for me with PvE. Like in SWTOR i don't get invited because i dont have gear of that rating.

Lord Xanhorn · June 2015

Zorrashi wrote: »

The main reason I still play ESO is the lack of a prominent gear treadmill.

This statement just boggles my mind and since no one can explain it, I will just have to accept that people like this exist and stop trying to comprehend the lack of sensical thought here.

You say the reason you play is the lack of something. Not because they do something instead of the gear grind. Just simply the lack of it is good enough. The point is, without a gear grind, there is NOTHING!

I mean can you imagine if I said that I would like this game more if they got rid of the PVP that I dont enjoy? If they left the rest of the game exactly as is but just removed Cyrodil I would enjoy the game more. I just don't like PVP and if they removed it I would like it more. That sounds just stupid cause if I dont like PVP, I don't have to participate.

This is the same concept. If you dont like a gear grind then don't participate. But saying you like the game cause its not there and there is no alternative just donest make any sense to me.

Earelith · June 2015

@NewBlacksmurf. I have no problem for vr to be removed unless they mess with crafting materials...

ThePonzzz · June 2015

For me, ESO is playing out like a lite version of any TES title. Story content isn't as rich, exploring isn't as adventurous, and the game is too quick. I realize that the developers have to cater to the MMO communities of modern day, but it would have been nice if progression was a lot slower.

OP named a lot of the newer and known games, but let's not forget MUDs (text-based), DAoC, EQ, UO, FFXI, and a variety of smaller games from '99 to '04. Some of these games have years of content and progression.

DDuke · June 2015

Knootewoot wrote: »

I don't need rewards for PvP as it's rewarding for me just to be able to be part of it. Once they start hand out armors with uber stats as rewards, they have to keep making new and better all the time. In a small time gear stats, not the player skill, will determine the outcome of a battle.

That's why i also don't like gear progression. It's a never ending progress and also has issues for me with PvE. Like in SWTOR i don't get invited because i dont have gear of that rating.

The amount of CPs already determine the outcome of battles. Someone with 100/200 CPs will stand absolutely no chance against someone even semi-competent with 500, since the power gap of that is already bigger than anything gear can grant you in other MMOs such as WoW, Rift or SWTOR.

Nor will you get invited to top raiding guilds or weekly runs if you dont deal enough DPS, which is very much tied to CPs.

Your point is moot, unless you meant to say you dont like progression at all?

Earelith · June 2015

@ThePonzzz i started playing mmos with vanilla wow..so while i heard lot of good things about everquest and daoc and uo i did not had the opportunity to play them on their glory