About the "endgame" that everyone complains...

Earelith

After playing so many MMOs over the last Decade, I really believe that ESO is the best MMO. Some people complain about the so called and famous "endgame" but I find ESO progression system the best of all.

There are 4 ways to have your MMO "endgame"

1) The wow style. Gear treadmill...you go after a set of gear by doing repetitive tasks, actually by just doing the same raid over and over for 4-5 months while all other game content is irrelevant. And after 5 months, there is a new raid with better gear that you run for the next 5 months. In the meanwhile, the gear you managed to get after 5 months of repetitive content, is now being given to others in a week or 2 in order to "catch up"

2) The GW2 style. No gear treadmill but no increase in power through other means. You play for Vanity items and for fun. While much better (imo) from the (1) method, still gets you bored sometimes. GW2 does included the Ascended gear also, after the exotic, but this is not a gear treadmill but more of a long term goal to catch, without resets. You still play for vanity. PVP ranks just give you costumes..

3) The ESO style. No gear treadmill but you continue progress your characters slowly through the champion points system. This method does not funnel you through a specific way of play and does not punish you by having and playing alts. There may be a more efficient and less efficient ways to progress that way, but the key is that there are alternatives.

You can play however you like, whoever character you like and still progress in your own pace..It may leave a gap between veteran and new players, but on the same time does not throw to the garbage all your "hard earning" progression, nor giving for free to others what you achieved, like the (1) method.

4)The EVE style. While I have not played EVE, I have read about it. In eve the are no levels but you build ships and put upgrades on them. The upgrade system works like research works in ESO. You put a skill or upgrade in a que and you wait x days or weeks until it completes.

Like method (3) it creates a gap between new players and veteran ones, but on the same time as said, progressing your account does not feel worthless and what you have achieved will not obsolete by a patch.

---

Personally I much prefer the ESO style of game content. You can advance at your own pace by doing whatever you like..You can just go grind mobs, or do a dungeon, or do some pvp, or play an alt, explore, do achievement. And all of these without daily/weekly caps that "force" you to do all or some of them each day/week. You have the complete freedom to play the game the way you like it and you still progress..

"endgame" content for me is: ESO > EVE > GW2 > WOW

Also, I have posted that link on another thread but is a very good read and will post it here again in case some people missed it http://www.engadget.com/2014/03/14/working-as-intended-endgame-is-the-worst-thing-that-ever-happen/

leshpar

I also really strongly prefer the ESO way of progression. ESO is a lot friendlier too than WoW. Basically I like games that cater to the lore, environments, and community (meaning promoting a friendly community) more than anything else.

pecheckler

Really? There are only 4 ways to do MMO endgame? You're pretty narrow minded.

Earelith

pecheckler wrote: »

Really? There are only 4 ways to do MMO endgame? You're pretty narrow minded.

Thats what I have seen, it is not my suggested methods. If you know a MMO that have a different one from the 4 above, let me know and I will edit the first post to include it.

timidobserver

I prefer ESO progression. The only thing I don't like about the Champion System is that they balanced the overall game poorly for it. It seems to be balanced around everyone having around 100 champion points. By the time people have an average 500-600 or so champion points every raid/dungeon boss will probably be dying in under 30 seconds.

Valymer

You can hardly call it the "ESO style" considering Everquest introduced pretty much the exact same type of system fourteen years ago in 2001.

But what Zenimax did do right was make CP account wide, that was crucial to the system's success.

The problem is that ESO does not encourage grouping for experience. In Everquest you really needed to group up with other people to grind mobs, and it was a lot more fun that way. In ESO you are gimping yourself with anything more than a single partner, and there is absolutely no challenge whatsoever in grinding mobs -- it is completely mindless with no chance to die unless you are really not paying attention.

With the exception of DSA, the most fun content in the game gives absolutely horrible experience compared to grinding. So in ESO you must choose to either a) have fun, or b) focus on character advancement.

The biggest mistake was not releasing a new zone or zones to go along with the champion system. But that ship has sailed now, and a lot of people just quit when they realized that to get CP at a decent rate they would have to grind the same old content that they were already tired of.

Earelith

@Valymer I have not played Everquest to be honest. I started playing MMOs with Vanilla wow. In my opinion a game must encourage group content without making it mandatory..The grinding you mention, is like this. You can grind alone if you want, but you will get much more xp if you grind in a duo.

you also said:

in ESO you must choose to either a) have fun, or b) focus on character advancement.

I don't understand why there should be a choice here You can have fun and still have character advancement..that is the whole point. Maybe you advance slower than the non fun activities, but you still progress. While in other MMOs, playing for fun = no progress.

there is absolutely no challenge whatsoever in grinding mobs -- it is completely mindless

The problem is that you focus so much on getting the most cp as fast as possible. That alone create a stressful game sessions that is hard to enjoy. Even if the best method to do this, was running dungeons, you would have the same opinion about dungeons..that is just a mindless grinding...

Valymer

Earelith wrote: »

@Valymer I have not played Everquest to be honest. I started playing MMOs with Vanilla wow. In my opinion a game must encourage group content without making it mandatory..The grinding you mention, is like this. You can grind alone if you want, but you will get much more xp if you grind in a duo.

you also said:

in ESO you must choose to either a) have fun, or b) focus on character advancement.

I don't understand why there should be a choice here You can have fun and still have character advancement..that is the whole point. Maybe you advance slower than the non fun activities, but you still progress. While in other MMOs, playing for fun = no progress.

Yeah, but if you PvP at all you can't fall too far behind. Most Everquest servers were PvE, so it wasn't like you felt you needed to race to get those points like you do on ESO.

I guess if you don't PvP in ESO, it doesn't matter. But the game was heavily marketed as AvA-oriented so...yeah.

Earelith

@Valymer See my above post that I edited to answer about grinding mobs Also yes, I do pvp, I just don't expect to win them all. I do understand your reasoning, but I am sure that you are not the player with the least CP. There are others with more than you and many with lower CP than you.

I myself have accepted that there are people who play professional and almost all the day and I am not stressed to reach them. And I am sure I am not in the bottom of progression either. But as I said, this is very subjective , and if it does bother you in pvp, no one can change your feelings.

KerinKor

Valymer wrote: »

In Everquest you really needed to group up with other people to grind mobs, and it was a lot more fun that way.

For you maybe.

I thought the 1990s gorup-or-die simply to progress MMO was dead and buried with EQ and one or two Japanese MMOs like FFXI/FFXIV .. I still play FFXI and love it but that's for sentimental reasons .. PUGging in order to level-up should have died with the 20th century.

Valymer

Earelith wrote: »

@Valymer See my above post that I edited to answer about grinding mobs Also yes, I do pvp, I just don't expect to win them all. I do understand your reasoning, but I am sure that you are not the player with the least CP. There are others with more than you and many with lower CP than you.

I myself have accepted that there are people who play professional and almost all the day and I am not stressed to reach them. And I am sure I am not in the bottom of progression either. But as I said, this is very subjective , and if it does bother you in pvp, no one can change your feelings.

Nah, I have almost 250 CP, but I've quit playing for the time being. Pretty absorbed in Witcher 3 and music projects right now...just don't get the urge to log in to ESO anymore.

I think you would have had to play EQ to feel the difference between farming exp in that game and doing it in this one. Mobs were a lot stronger in that game (even normal trash) and so you killed less of them but got more for each of them...I dunno it's hard to explain, but grinding on ESO has got to be only a little more fun than watching paint dry.

And aside from grinding there isn't much else to do unless you wanna run the same old dungeons or trials for the millionth time. PvP is beyond broken so that isn't much fun either.

ESO has no mini-games, no long quest lines that give a neat reward...crafting is interesting in theory but it is far too easy to max out. Just not enough to do at max level to keep me interested.

Earelith

@Valymer I am sure it was fun. In Vanilla wow it was also hard to grind mobs aoe..you had to be a mage and have improved blizzard and be skilled to do aoe grinding Maybe in EQ was much harder I don't know, but vanilla wow also did not have aoe grinding. In order to grind aoe mobs of your level you needed a group..not to mention elite zones and elite mobs grinding. It was fun for sure. and always leveled my chars while in group.

It seems to me that you need a break from ESO is not a bad thing. Gone the days that we played MMOs for years without breaks. We got burned out already and the magic is not so strong anymore. So is very common now days to take a break from our games until we have the urge to play again or something new is being released.

Valymer

Earelith wrote: »

@Valymer I am sure it was fun. In Vanilla wow it was also hard to grind mobs aoe..you had to be a mage and have improved blizzard and be skilled to do aoe grinding Maybe in EQ was much harder I don't know, but vanilla wow also did not have aoe grinding. In order to grind aoe mobs of your level you needed a group..not to mention elite zones and elite mobs grinding. It was fun for sure. and always leveled my chars while in group.

It seems to me that you need a break from ESO is not a bad thing. Gone the days that we played MMOs for years without breaks. We got burned out already and the magic is not so strong anymore. So is very common now days to take a break from our games until we have the urge to play again or something new is being released.

Yep that's why I am taking one, but it's starting to feel more like a permanent break. And I disagree about one thing: I don't think that we are burned out on MMOs, I think the industry has shifted radically (cash shop focus etc.) and games just aren't being made like they used to, and that's why we don't feel drawn to play them continuously. But anyways that's only my opinion.

SeptimusDova

Log in rider training. find some nirncrux log out.= End Game

Turelus

EVE Style! Full MMO Sandbox!

Sadly EVE style wouldn't work on ESO because of the way it's built. EVE works because it's a true sandbox with destructible equipment etc.

I'm pretty happy with ESO's end game right now, the part killing it for me is the lack of any development while we wait for consoles and the crippling PVP lag.

Earelith

@Valymer you are right..but also the community have changed too. A whole generation of gamers have moved out (real life, getting old, etc) and a whole new generation came in. I once tried to play in a Vanilla wow private server and it was all great except the community..try to make a game that needs 3 months to reach the level cap and with no lfg tools and people will abandon it immediately except for some niche minority.

But game companies cannot invest millions and target a niche minority..in the old days they could do that because the majority of players were old school RPG gamers..now they have to cater in a very different community. And from all the current MMOs out there I feel ESO is the most "old school RPG" (if you can even name it like this..).

@Turelus Age of Wushu also has the EVE style of progression. Sadly I don't like "forced" ffa pvp..I am waiting the day for a "pve" sandbox. I mean, imagine ESO was sandbox, with all the zones pve except Cyrodiil where pvp takes place. Depending how your faction do on pvp you have access on pve dungeons/raids/buffs e.t.c. That would be great.

Valymer

KerinKor wrote: »

Valymer wrote: »

In Everquest you really needed to group up with other people to grind mobs, and it was a lot more fun that way.

For you maybe.

I thought the 1990s gorup-or-die simply to progress MMO was dead and buried with EQ and one or two Japanese MMOs like FFXI/FFXIV .. I still play FFXI and love it but that's for sentimental reasons .. PUGging in order to level-up should have died with the 20th century.

It sure beats AOE grinding mobs for hours without speaking a single word to anyone.

Etaniel

I remember playing DAoC on a freeshard a couple years ago, on a classic, no expansion version.
To Level up you had to group up, and the most efficient way would be to be an 8 man group. There were barely any quest, so grinding was the only option, but... it was actually fun. You would actually get to know the people you were grinding with, and would talk and have conversations while playing. Grinding sessions could last for 4-5 hours but you rarely got bored because it was efficient and you met nice people. In the end, those people you grinded with ended up creating a guild, and playing PvP or PvE together. It meant you didn't get to the endgame without knowing anyone, so you could straight up go do dungeons or pvp without relying on pugs.

I'm not sure such a system would work today, people don't like grinding anymore, and prefer playing solo and questing.
While I think it's a good thing that ESO has so many quests for that type of players, I really wish there would have been zones or dungeons specifically designed for grinding in groups. I mean we only got craglorn, which isn't even designed for group grinding, not to mention the game punishes you for grouping with more than 1 person, but that zone also requires you to be vet already..

I like ESO's endgame model, but I wish we had more choice in terms of raids and loot. I'd love to have wow style raids, but without changing them every 4 months and making their loot irrelevant

DDuke

Is this thread for real?

Basically, you're saying that farming goblins in a small cave (since that is how you best "advance your character") is better end game than epic raids and/or competitive PvP that actually give personalized, unique & interesting rewards instead of simply "points".


Sorry, but I must respectfully disagree.


Sure, you're still advancing your character even if doing less optimal stuff than farming goblins. But then again, isn't this the case in gear focused MMOs as well? You can do easier content or quests/crafting and also get gear, just not as good gear.


Also, while we're being honest, Champion System is probably the worst form of progression I've seen in MMOs, ever.

You get rewarded based on the time you spend playing alone, not based on your skill (at all) like in other MMOs.

Valymer

DDuke wrote: »

Is this thread for real?

Basically, you're saying that farming goblins in a small cave (since that is how you best "advance your character") is better end game than epic raids and/or competitive PvP.


Sorry, but I must respectfully disagree.


Sure, you're still advancing your character even if doing less optimal stuff than farming goblins. But then again, isn't this the case in gear focused MMOs as well? You can do easier content or quests/crafting and also get gear, just not as good gear.


Also, while we're being honest, Champion System is probably the worst form of progression I've seen in MMOs, ever.

You get rewarded based on the time you spend playing alone, not based on your skill (at all) like in other MMOs.

We aren't saying it's a better endgame. It's just far better for progressing your character than anything else you can do, and that is a terrible design.

You are absolutely right that you shouldn't be able to to just play by yourself and get super powerful, but ESO has decided to go the extreme polar opposite direction of having to group for progression. And as usual with Zenimax I believe they took it way too far.

When you can craft everything yourself, get close to the fastest possible exp by yourself, and do almost all quests in the game by yourself, then why even play an MMO? Single-player games like TW3 or Skyrim offer far greater depth and immersion than an MMORPG could ever hope to.

ESO never really figured out what it wanted to be. And because of that it ended up not meeting a lot of people's expectations, which contrary to popular belief were not really all that astronomical to begin with.

If Cyrodiil wasn't such a joke right now then maybe this game would have a leg to stand on. But right now it's barely more than a single-player game...and it makes a poor one of those.

Cherryblossom

There was me thinking that end game was things to do when you reached max level, currently there is the same dungeons you did whilst getting to max level or trials, all of which have awful rewards which don't premote re-playing the dungeons or trials.

This game does not reward, that is the issue. Never played WOW but at least doing the End Game grind of same old dungeons was for the reason of getting something nice, rather than ESO where I get the master staff with exploration bonus and stamina return, when what I actually want is the Two Handed Sword of Death and Destruction....

DDuke

Valymer wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Is this thread for real?

Basically, you're saying that farming goblins in a small cave (since that is how you best "advance your character") is better end game than epic raids and/or competitive PvP.


Sorry, but I must respectfully disagree.


Sure, you're still advancing your character even if doing less optimal stuff than farming goblins. But then again, isn't this the case in gear focused MMOs as well? You can do easier content or quests/crafting and also get gear, just not as good gear.


Also, while we're being honest, Champion System is probably the worst form of progression I've seen in MMOs, ever.

You get rewarded based on the time you spend playing alone, not based on your skill (at all) like in other MMOs.

We aren't saying it's a better endgame. It's just far better for progressing your character than anything else you can do, and that is a terrible design.

Earelith wrote: »

After playing so many MMOs over the last Decade, I really believe that ESO is the best MMO. Some people complain about the so called and famous "endgame" but I find ESO progression system the best of all.

Opinions, I know, but people saying things like this... *shakes head*

Valymer wrote: »

You are absolutely right that you shouldn't be able to to just play by yourself and get super powerful, but ESO has decided to go the extreme polar opposite direction of having to group for progression. And as usual with Zenimax I believe they took it way too far.

When you can craft everything yourself, get close to the fastest possible exp by yourself, and do almost all quests in the game by yourself, then why even play an MMO? Single-player games like TW3 or Skyrim offer far greater depth and immersion than an MMORPG could ever hope to.

ESO never really figured out what it wanted to be. And because of that it ended up not meeting a lot of people's expectations, which contrary to popular belief were not really all that astronomical to begin with.

If Cyrodiil wasn't such a joke right now then maybe this game would have a leg to stand on. But right now it's barely more than a single-player game...and it makes a poor one of those.

Well, I kind of believe ESO tried, or is trying(?) to maintain some raiding focused audience in the game as well. Why else would they have spent development time creating 3 Trials?

Unless that was to create false expectations as a marketing trick, definitely not something unheard of when speaking about ZOS...


It just seems that they have no idea how to make this content worth doing, that they truly believe the item sets that drop in those are worth farming/using.

Nor can you really compare these Trials to real raids other MMOs have. Those tend to last longer than 15 mins and have more than one or two challenging bosses (and each boss has a reason for killing them in form of loot), which leads me to believe that the whole raiding aspect of the game was hastily created, almost an afterthought (resulting in a loss of many, many subscribers).


Something modern MMOs keep doing wrong, is that they always fail to keep both audiences essential for the game's health happy: casual players and hardcore, progression focused players. Either you go too far one direction (e.g. GW2 being too casual), or too far towards the other (WildStar, which lacked content for casual people).

I would go ahead and say that ESO is very casual friendly already, that there is no need to focus on that further right now, but try to keep the other audience happy, that still hasn't got a real raid after one year, and last "mini-raid" (Trial), without incentivized content mind you, over half a year ago.

Knootewoot

Meh not the best MMO for me. I liked pre-cu SWG the best and after that Vanguard and after that Warhammer Online. It's a matter of opinion. But then, all the games I liked best died so not all shared my opinion as well.



"Oh I'm afraid the game won't be long operational when Knootewoot has arrived."


SWG: No end game. But enough "toys" and mini-games to keep people occupied.
Vanguard: To much to do to worry about endgame. Also enough toys.
WarHammer: The PvP servers were awesome. PvP is engame enough for some game (for me also in TESO PvP is the only thing, but if you don't play you don't get CP's and you get behind to much is not fun)

asteldian

Vanguard reigns for best mmo for me despite its epic failure. ESO is definitely high on my list but has plenty of flaws.
As for EQ, the days of needing groups to level have passed which most feel is a good thing. For me, not so much - the challenge wig a lot of its content meant almost anything you chose to do was as thrilling as vet DSA. That said, I accept that more solo accessible content is important in modern day MMOs, though I found Vanguard had a perfect balance.

Earelith

@Knootewoot Well I meant the best MMO from the current ones..not of all times hehe.

Knootewoot

Earelith wrote: »

@Knootewoot Well I meant the best MMO from the current ones..not of all times hehe.

Ah ok

PvE wise then I like SWTOR the best. Good stories and able to do in co-op without worrying about phasing out. Also lots of endgame raids.

PvP wise I like TESO the best.

Lionxoft

Seasonal gear is already confirmed even dating back to July 2014. When we will see it is another question but your observation about ESO's current gearing progression or lack thereof is accurate for the time being. It's slotted to change however.

The Champion System is probably one of the worst max level progression systems I've seen in an MMO but that's only because of the method that is utilized to progress. Straight XP was a lazy metric to determine progression and showed the caliber of the design team whether it be time constraints or just lack of quality ideas. I have no idea. Achievements for excelling at vet dungeons, raiding, pvp, exploration, crafting, gathering etc should have been the benchmarks for progression but instead late game progression is running around in circles killing mobs for no other goal besides straight xp while often resetting the actual objective to ensure a continual grind.

Grinding mobs is not end game content. It's strictly a method of leveling and shouldn't be counted as a part of the late game.

ESO also has probably the absolute worst loot system in the history of major MMORPG or at least from those that I've experienced first hand. I mean this system is giving green items for defeating elite bosses in end game content over and over. An increase in gold in substitute would be better instead of that garbage taking up an inventory slot.

There is no luck roll modifier and the loot tables are all sorts of messed up. Beating a final boss in a dungeon should never give green items. Start out with a base value to get a rare drop and each time you go without a rare drop your luck value increases and modifies your chances of getting a rare drop until you're guaranteed to get one after (x) amount of runs. Make the madness end... Please.

Then there's PvP progression. Wait, nevermind. Doesn't exist. My bad! PvP is probably the least rewarding gameplay realm in ESO and that's sayin' something when final dungeon bosses are giving vendor trash. There's no significant loot from PvP that can't be found outside of Cyrodiil on a guild store and any other form of quality rewards are insignificant or non-existent. You run from keep a to keep b. You cap keep b. You celebrate with 400'ish xp (lolol) and move on. That scamp xp value is so significant... not.

Needless to say I disagree. Which is totally fine as opinions will differ but I figured I'd post an objective argument.

Earelith

Knootewoot wrote: »

Earelith wrote: »

@Knootewoot Well I meant the best MMO from the current ones..not of all times hehe.

Ah ok

PvE wise then I like SWTOR the best. Good stories and able to do in co-op without worrying about phasing out. Also lots of endgame raids.

PvP wise I like TESO the best.

Well swtor is kind of weird situation for me. While i love the class stories, the rest of the game is meh..dont like the combat, the engine is not optimized and have many bugs and even on top end pc you have fps problems..end end game is one of the same... dailies and raid. Not my cap of tea.

Even the side stories are meh and boring..no wonder why they offered x12 xp boost..but well, swtor is in 1st category of wow style endgame which i personaly hate

Seth_Black

Problem is not with the game really... it's just players - simple minded and behaving like small children bored with one toy after 5 minutes.
They all want easy finish in maxing gear & stats, sitting back and enjoying 'achieved' kind of 'status' (?)

If players really love the game they sit there and play regardless what's the endgame and when new content arrives.
Good example - WoW ...raiding Siege Of Orgrimar for a YEAR till new content was released.

Face the truth thou ...majority of players complaining about endgame didn't even finished 100% of the content provided
Got all the achievements? All the best gear? ...then you can get bored

but

With ESO it's not an option really...
I'm playing mostly my NB and got bored with being DD ...now I'm a healer
Wait, we need few more tanks for the guild to run daily gold pledges - guess what? Now I'm a TANK!
I can't really get bored with this game, there's always a way to do something cool without doing tons of daily quests or having countless alts (what made me quit WoW)

Earelith

@Lionxoft as i understand the problem is not the endgame style but how that reward you..well it may need some tweaks..also yeap, would be nice if everything could contribute to cp..but these are easily fixed/tweaked. The important thing is that they are in a good direction and that they didnt fell into the terrible gear treadmill..

Lord Xanhorn

I'm sorry but I agree with DDuke. Is this thread for real?

This thread is filled with people who want to do low skill content by themselves and not have anyone else in the game more prestigious than them. If you don't want to raid or group or do otherwise challenging content and you just want to log on and grind rats and pick flowers, why the heck do you think that is what everyone should want to do? If there is a gear treadmill and you don't want to partake, just don't get on it. Don't take joy in destroying that fun for others just so there inst someone in town that looks or is more awesome gearwise than your character.

There is no alternative to the geargrind in this game. So there is just nothing which is why max level people are leaving in droves.