A question to savvy players

Semfim · May 2015

I've always been a bottom of the pvp ladder player, due to both lack of skill and game time, so death in Cyrodiil is not new to me. Nevertheless I used to pretend putting up a fight, meaning I would last for about 4 or 5 seconds before being killed. But yesterday and today I got killed three times in one second by the attacks of just one player (three different players, 2 Nb's and another of which class I dont remember). When I say in one second I mean the experience that I dont even see my health bar moving. I get hit and I'm dead.

When I look at the death recap, and i'm only going to list the last one, since I dont remember the others, the order of skills shown was ambush, assassins blade, proximity detonation, assassins blade. The hit from proximity detonation I can live with, it was cast before reaching me and it hit with the other attacks. The thing I dont understand is how can someone be so fast that they throw one skill + 2 times another skill in one second.

I couldnt do that to save my life, but then again as I said I'm not a good player. So the question is: is it natural to throw in 3 attacks in one second (for a good player) or is it some shennigan macro or something like that?

AhPook_Is_Here · May 2015

Well ambush takes a sec to activate but you can queue another ability behind it, which he did with assassins blade. The only button he had to push after actually hitting you the first time was the 2nd assassins blade.

God_flakes · May 2015

I don't care what denials come out in this thread. There are macros being used. They've been utilized in plenty of other games so why anyone who obtusely claim they're not in ESO also is beyond me. They're being used and they should be banned.

Fatalyis · May 2015

It's difficult for me to judge whether people are using macros when I get insta-killed, or if it's just the piece of trash servers with all of it's latency/lag issues. I have been killed in less than a second in some very questionable ways though.

One that happened just last night showed 2 separate Biting Jabs, which takes at least a second to get off, as well as a Heavy Attack and Shield Charge. All of that hit me and I died damn near instantly. That seemed a bit iffy to me. Funny thing was, when I said something in /zone chat, three different people typed the characters name. I thought that was pretty funny.

Xeniph · May 2015

Yup, this is completely possible and super easy.

Ambush in fact does have a cast time. It's .8 seconds I believe, and Proxy Det is also a cast time ability. Thus you can discount those 2 abilities, as they were both cast out of combat and before you were hit. Which leaves an Surprise Attack left to explain. Which was queued mid flight during the Ambush. Or more likely being spammed during mid flight to ensure it went off.

That's actually a pretty tame rotation. It's usually better to animation cancel a heavy attack followed by a surprise attack. Which is usually enough to one shot non shielded apponents.

As to the macro claim. Of coarse there are macros. Or rather macro'd hotkeys so to speak.

Sequential macro's, as you are referring to, in ESO are extremely inefficient. Due to no global cool down and the lack of positional/reactionary abilities to tie together in a chain. Furthermore with the API like it is there can't be a check made for buff/debuffs further limiting macro's.

Mostly in ESO macro's consist of weaving light attacks with an ability and/or making said ability recursive ( in either form, toggle or held down)

However, in the OP's particular instance, there would be no need to macro any of this to be possible. And would not be as effective had it been.

And as a side note. Macro's are completely undetectable unless they are using a recursive while being afk. So banning people is unrealistic.

God_flakes · May 2015

I didn't say ban the people. I said ban the use of them as in make them impossible to use. You can't tell me in 2015 these MMO's haven't figured out a viable way to block and subvert the use of exploitive 3rd party garbage that gives lazy cheaters an upper hand.

Most_Awesome · May 2015

I hate animation cancelling and its because of this you get macro users, who set up Ambush, and stacking up attacks mid flight and killing you in 1 second.

Skill to me is beating your opponent, with positioning, blocks dodges and using skills at the right time, charging into someone and getting off 6 attacks in 1 second because you use a macro or play the piano is not skill.

This is what makes people lose interest in ESO PvP, the amount of times I've been stunned by an ambush and then listened to the sound of supprise attack going off and then dead to see in the death recap Ambush>SuppriseAttack>LightAttack>KillerBlade or Focused Aim>Focused Aim>LightAttack>Ambush>Killers blade.

Plus in the last 2 weeks on my Sorc Ive not seen one Death Recap as I explode so fast without my shields up it don't even register the damage, and combat log and recount just show the damage numbers but not what did the damage or by who.

Semfim · May 2015

Thx for replies! I see I am not alone in this ordeal... I personally have a biggie with macros/chain commands etc, since when that started the first MMO I played (Asheron's Call) went down the drain very fast. Would hate that happening to ESO, but as it stands its either go along with the pack or just PVE.

rfennell_ESO · May 2015

There is a fair bit of this going on.

It's hard to tell for sure if it's the combat log and/or lag, or even sometimes both.

But, Ive seen instance of certain abilities hitting 4 times in a row for a kill when it's not possible (4 flying blades, 3-4 surprise attacks, 4 flame lashes (with a power lash in there at 2nd) and of course the 3x lethal arrow.

The fact that it's always some high level ganker that will 100% teabag makes it dubious, as I don't see the average (or below average) player doing it or lag selecting them for it to happen ever.

Best advice is if you see it happen, screenshot it and send it to ZOS as a exploit report, the timestamp on the screenshot will tell them exact time of the occurrence in properties. I send them in and have noticed certain players not around anymore... whether that is them being banned or just not playing at same time or server as me... who knows. I know a certain gank group that ran with the invulnerable hack dk tank while their "hit you with 4 attacks at once" gankers killed people haven't been around since people started reporting them as I said.

Worst offender is the templar that hits you with toppling charge, puncturing strikes, light attack, puncturing strikes, light attack, etc etc. and does it all nearly instantly. Report, report, report.

Ifthir_ESO · May 2015

There are multiple exploits right now.

I won't go into detail but I have posted them as bugs/exploits in game and sent the details to the devs offline.

One in particular is well known and can let certain skills fire altogether when they shouldn't. It acts as a built-in lag switch...

Then there is just plain macros and/or crafted lag switches. Then there is just server lag/desync.

There are a lot of ways this is happening but I believe the frequency of this has increased due to one specific exploit. We will see if they patch it Monday. If they don't, Im posting it all over the internet and the devs can explain why they didnt fix it when everyone then uses it.

Ifthir_ESO · May 2015

Semfim wrote: »

Thx for replies! I see I am not alone in this ordeal... I personally have a biggie with macros/chain commands etc, since when that started the first MMO I played (Asheron's Call) went down the drain very fast. Would hate that happening to ESO, but as it stands its either go along with the pack or just PVE.

As a former Asheron's call player I agree.

G0ku · June 2015

Surpise Attack (unmorphed) does not break cloak, just as proximity detonation (before it goes off) and concealed weapon. So the NB will hit you with all that crap with you never taking notice of it until your healthbar drops to zero and you´re lying dead.

Some funny guy did this to me two times in a row, the 2nd time after I got rezzed. His comment on that was like "it´s funny" and he continued to do so. I then stoppped to play my templar in pvp and now go freakin shield stack sorc so gameplay stays also funny for me.

Needless to say, every time it happens now I file a bug report and on top of that I will report the player. All you can do is spread this "funny" tactic amongst all players you know until the complains about it get so massive that ZOS needs to react.

Until then don´t feel offended and report. It´s just nature of people to go that way.

Soulac · June 2015

G0ku wrote: »

Surpise Attack (unmorphed) does not break cloak, just as proximity detonation (before it goes off) and concealed weapon. So the NB will hit you with all that crap with you never taking notice of it until your healthbar drops to zero and you´re lying dead.

Some funny guy did this to me two times in a row, the 2nd time after I got rezzed. His comment on that was like "it´s funny" and he continued to do so. I then stoppped to play my templar in pvp and now go freakin shield stack sorc so gameplay stays also funny for me.

Needless to say, every time it happens now I file a bug report and on top of that I will report the player. All you can do is spread this "funny" tactic amongst all players you know until the complains about it get so massive that ZOS needs to react.

Until then don´t feel offended and report. It´s just nature of people to go that way.

I know that Ambush doesn't break cloak, but Veiled Strike and his morph Concealed weapon does.
Or did I miss something :P

G0ku · June 2015

@Soulac: I was busy tuning my DK and my Sorc for pvp so I did not test it myself yet. I just repeat what I have been told by the NB´s who popcorned me, so I can´t tell for sure. Fact is together with the lag the first, last and only thing is your healthbar dropping to zero. Further details are given in death recap later but not a single attack displayed on my screen. Guess lag comes into play here too, though my machine and connection are really decent...

Armitas · June 2015

I don't think anyone would put prox det into their macro.

OP in 1.6 you can take 22k Damage from a single attack. It's best just to expect a ridiculous time in Cyrodiil right now because that is exactly what we got with 1.6. They won't do a thing about it till console is out, then when it comes out they will be spending all their time fixing the gamebreaking bugs that it will come out with.

Erock25 · June 2015

If we ignore the inclusion of 'lag switches' or whatever mechanism people are insinuating that may or may not be around, people generally fall into two categories. Those who think macros (without lag switches if they do exist) provide an advantage and allow people to perform actions faster and with more precision than manual inputs, and those who realize that it is possible to set up macros for chain attacks but also know that it is just as easy and efficient to do it with manual input while also giving you finer control to adapt to a fluid situation. If you are the former, you need to educate yourself and turn all this 'macro' whines into 'lag switch' whines or 'intentional health bar desync' whines or 'netcode vulnerability' whines because macros alone give LITERALLY ZERO advantage. If you are in the latter group, congratulations on understanding the combat mechanics and keep on not using macros because they're just about useless.

Joy_Division · June 2015

OP, in 1.6, we can all die instantly. It is one of the biggest current issues with the game for many players. The more experienced players have developed a 6th sense of what to do in various situations to avoid getting insta-killed, or at least when they are not CCed.

The combination you described is something a NB can do without using macros. The magicka detonation skill was designed to use against zergs and in the irony of ironies, it is now a good single target nuke and is used by zergs to great effect.

Semfim · June 2015

As I said in the original pst, I've got no biggie with the magicka detonation. I understand that its "preloaded". The problem is with receiving 3 attacks in one second. I'm a NB as well and if i go against a test mob and press the assassins blade key as fast as i can the skill doesnt activate more times because of that. On my end abilities have an animation and (save animation canceling) the same skill doesn't trigger before the animation is over. In the case I used as an example (this happened to me also with other classes) there was no light/heavy attack in between, which leads me to believe it wasnt animation cancelling happening I know it can happen with block as well but it was so fast that to pull that off (ambush-block-assassins blade-block-assassins blade in one second) you would need Lucky Luke behind the keyboard.

BTW I know that attacks can go to very high (think the most that hit me besides siege was a proximity detonation for almost 19k). This is not the issue here (although its a issue and siege is an issue as well)....

Darklord_Tiberius · June 2015

Prox Det has a cast time so it really wouldn't work well in a macro set up. The point of using an out of game program to string macros is to auto cancel out any type of animation that would make the skill actually not be an insta cast. A lot of "insta cast" abilities actually have .5-1 second animation attached with it, so technically; they are not instant. However, since you can manually "block-cast" abilities in this game, meaning you can hit your skill and hit block immediately after and it will fire the skill instantly without its attached animation, it allows for people to use macros in this manner.

An effective macro in this game really can only consist of "instant cast" abilities. It is very easy to identify who has macros and who doesn't. A normal skill sequence of say 5 skills with animations would normally take 5 seconds to lay out can be cut down to 1 second using a macro and auto animation canceling.

ZOS has made many statements saying macros are a breach of TOS because they involve using a third party program. They also have said that manual animation canceling, aka spell weaving, is a legitimate game tactic. I think the only way to fix the issue of people using macros is to make it so that if the animation is interrupted at all even on instant casts; it completely cancels the skill. Most games are like this, but if they did change to this, it would change the entire PvP system more than we can just see on the surface.

Its a tough issue for them and I think they are trying to figure out what to do. I am glad I do not work for them lol. I just play the game.

WebBull · June 2015

There are definitely exploits being used by certain NB's right now (on top of the fact that they are already the strongest class). You will die in 1-2 seconds, see only 1 hit, and it shows that you were hit 4-5 times by the same spell. It's BS.

Ezareth · June 2015

I used to thing this was some sort of clever nightblade stacking thing but I've also seen it done by a templar consistently as well to me and other members of my group.

There is a possibility that it has to do with lag on the client end and the crappy server side code not checking timestamps or enforcing game mechanics but I suspect that other people have figured out a way to emulate this situation much as there are sorcs who have figured out how to "lag bolt" in order to fly.

The devs as usual are incapable of fixing these sort of issues...which is why we still see those 2 players who shall not be named exploiting in cyrodiil every day.

Erock25 · June 2015

Darklord_Tiberius wrote: »

An effective macro in this game really can only consist of "instant cast" abilities. It is very easy to identify who has macros and who doesn't. A normal skill sequence of say 5 skills with animations would normally take 5 seconds to lay out can be cut down to 1 second using a macro and auto animation canceling.

SOMEONE PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG ... but as far as I know what I quoted above is complete nonsense. The only difference between using 5 skills with and without canceling is that without canceling your first ability will hit around the 0.75 second mark and the last will hit around 4.75 seconds and with animation canceling your first ability will hit around the 0.2 second mark and the last will hit around 4.2 seconds. THAT IS THE ONLY DIFFERENCE. Animation canceling will not allow you to break the ~around~ 1 second global cool down system they have in place. I can literally sit there and spam ABILITY X -> BLOCK about 8 times in one second and no effing way will I use ABILITY X 8 times. Why do people not get this?

Darklord_Tiberius · June 2015

Erock25 wrote: »

Darklord_Tiberius wrote: »

An effective macro in this game really can only consist of "instant cast" abilities. It is very easy to identify who has macros and who doesn't. A normal skill sequence of say 5 skills with animations would normally take 5 seconds to lay out can be cut down to 1 second using a macro and auto animation canceling.

SOMEONE PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG ... but as far as I know what I quoted above is complete nonsense. The only difference between using 5 skills with and without canceling is that without canceling your first ability will hit around the 0.75 second mark and the last will hit around 4.75 seconds and with animation canceling your first ability will hit around the 0.2 second mark and the last will hit around 4.2 seconds. THAT IS THE ONLY DIFFERENCE. Animation canceling will not allow you to break the ~around~ 1 second global cool down system they have in place. I can literally sit there and spam ABILITY X -> BLOCK about 8 times in one second and no effing way will I use ABILITY X 8 times. Why do people not get this?

I can block cast certain skills together under a second, so you are wrong for one about the 1 second GCD system. If you want to make those claims, show a link to where they have stated this system is in place. Either you are making things up or certain skills are not included onto this system you mention. But as I PvP much more than you and I know my class very very well, I can assure you; not every skill has a 1 second GCD with each other...

Erock25 · June 2015

Darklord_Tiberius wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Darklord_Tiberius wrote: »

An effective macro in this game really can only consist of "instant cast" abilities. It is very easy to identify who has macros and who doesn't. A normal skill sequence of say 5 skills with animations would normally take 5 seconds to lay out can be cut down to 1 second using a macro and auto animation canceling.

SOMEONE PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG ... but as far as I know what I quoted above is complete nonsense. The only difference between using 5 skills with and without canceling is that without canceling your first ability will hit around the 0.75 second mark and the last will hit around 4.75 seconds and with animation canceling your first ability will hit around the 0.2 second mark and the last will hit around 4.2 seconds. THAT IS THE ONLY DIFFERENCE. Animation canceling will not allow you to break the ~around~ 1 second global cool down system they have in place. I can literally sit there and spam ABILITY X -> BLOCK about 8 times in one second and no effing way will I use ABILITY X 8 times. Why do people not get this?

I can block cast certain skills together under a second, so you are wrong for one about the 1 second GCD system. If you want to make those claims, show a link to where they have stated this system is in place. Either you are making things up or certain skills are not included onto this system you mention. But as I PvP much more than you and I know my class very very well, I can assure you; not every skill has a 1 second GCD with each other...

Which skills? Ambush into something else??? Since it has the cast time it is starting the GCD as soon as the cast time starts which makes the dmg of the charge hit just as the GCD is coming up so the next skill can fire off ASAP. If you aren't talking about Ambush, which skill can you repeatedly fire off in under 1 second?

edit: Just noticed you were a Templar so forget Ambush but any skill with a cast time that is not a channel could act the same.

ThePonzzz · June 2015

The real issue I've been seeing is being able to trigger lag to your benefit. It happened the other night on Thornblade and caused many of us sitting on a scroll to crash.

As a newer PvP player, I've slowly been building up more tactics to staying alive. There is nothing wrong from running from a fight though. I think many players (myself included when I started) felt they should be able to take someone on 1-on-1. This just isn't true. You need to know your place and know how to excel in the area you do well in. Learning how to dodge and break stuns is also very important.

Erock25 · June 2015

Anyone else besides @Darklord_Tiberius able to enlighten me on which skills bypass the GCD?

Armitas · June 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

There is a possibility that it has to do with lag on the client end and the crappy server side code not checking timestamps or enforcing game mechanics but I suspect that other people have figured out a way to emulate this situation much as there are sorcs who have figured out how to "lag bolt" in order to fly.

They have. There is an ingame lagswitch and it's being used with bolt and certain NB skills to send a stack of attacks at once. ZOS was made aware of it, and can replicate it. No idea when it will be fixed. The same method is used for both attack stacking and lag bolting.

Remember that thread about sorcs bolting across a river? with the people in the "know" saying "oh it's just lag" when I called them out on it? yeah, puke, I'm so disgusted right now.