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The new fear, Gear progression.
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docstrawb✭✭✭
"Weekly grind", you seem to still think that gear progression=PvE raiding. Not the case. Most modern MMOs have excellent gear from PvP as well, and ESO seems keen on having strong gear drop from 4-man content as well (Master's Weapons).
And yes, you do have options even now: a) be suboptimal or b) be optimal
If you don't use one specific gear set for your role, you are suboptimal. Simple as that.
But if those magical build generating elves that find your builds decide PVE bow #1 is the choice, you will be forced to grind that PVE content to get it without a choice. Don't want to be running around suboptimal.Oh yes, but it is nearly not enough. Besides, getting that bow would only allow me to do other content that rewards me with vendor junk in return even faster. What's the point?
This is a personal feeling that doesn't warrant changing the entire game system around. Many different ppl play for many different reasons, and switching to a narrow minded one sided system is not a solution for anyone but those narrow minded players.Also, I'd like you to explain how you link weekly caps and lockouts with "casualization". Do you know what "casualization" or casual content means, or do I have to explain it?
I have explained this already, but i will again. Gear progression leads to lockouts and caps to artificially extend content, so a guild with a steady raid group can't get all of their gear in a week and get back to complaining for something new. The number requirement for a group, which grows larger in size to act as a "difficulty" for aquiring gear directly leads to more casual players complaining about not getting to even see content. That leads directly to casualization, ie:Raidfinder. I believe you mentioned leaving WOW for this very reason.There is always going to be one, and only one optimal setup for your role. When are you going to realize this?
The whole notion of there being viable options is ***.
That doesn't mean that the other options should be eliminated, reducing the depth. This, again, only applies to the min/maxers who carbon copy the same build. It doesn't apply to the players who want to try different option and discover niche builds, or possibly a new optimal build. When are you going to realize that?0 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
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^^^^^Joy_Division wrote: »
My argument against such a system is that it greatly reduced the level of customization in regards to endgame viable gear when the only gear at the new ilvl is a small batch of new items.
Should there be a new big powerful sword you can use to smite you enemies? Hell yes.
Should there be an option for players to pick and choose from the large range of previously viable endgame gear sets and not have to be compromised with a lower ilvl because they want to expand their game? Hell yes.
Im advocating options rather than limitations.
Right on.I can see where you're coming from, but that would be implying there are options in the first place, which really isn't the case since players are clever and test things out, resulting in them always finding the most optimal combination of gear.
In PvE, every competitive stamina DPS is using pretty much the same gear (stacking as much weapon damage as possible). Same goes for magicka builds (stacking spell damage, results in people using same gear with max. spell damage potential).
Only difference comes when an optimal setup requires something like Master's Bow/Dagger, or Master's Destruction Staff, which everyone can't simply get in 5 minutes.
So in a way, gear progression makes sure people aren't using the same gear (if they haven't earned it yet).
Same applies for PvP as well by the way, there's always one optimal (best performing) setup for stamina burst, stamina sustain, magicka burst, magicka sustain, tankiness and so on...
Choice here is the same as you have in other games: you can use the optimal gear, or you can use the suboptimal gear.
Min maxing be praised
That said, I do hope they add lots of different higher tier sets in the future (so that the optimal gear isn't obvious, and requires some thinking to find out).
The bottom line here, and what Rioht is saying, is that gear progression does simplify/water down choices. The fact that most ppl are min/maxing, looking up the best build set combos to go in optimal leaves the question of who found these builds. The gear progression would destroy that, making the new high tier sets the automatic choice, taking away the whole beauty of the current system, which is for ppl who don't want to look up the optimal build. To find set/skill combos themselves, which is where the ones the HC min/max elitists use come from. It won't affect them, because that isn't their game. Their game is to look it up, equip it, and go fight. But they aren't the only players in the game.
Are we talking about Elder Scrolls Online? Did you actually use the word "beauty" to describe this game's gear and character development system? Since this thread is about gear, let's leave aside the pointlessness of VR1-VR14.
You want to talk about water-downed choices, what exactly do you think 1.6 is? Have you logged in a magicka build since February? There is only one choice: stack spellpower as much as possible and that means we all wear 4 pieces of Martial Knowledge + some combination of 2 piece spellpower bonus such as adroitness, torug's pact, etc. 95% of the other gear sets are uncompetitive trash. Now since someone has claimed that a specific set (the silks of the sun) offers a marginal increase for DKS, the price for a single piece of this set goes to $100,000 gold because everything else sucks. This is by far the worst gear situation I have seen and I've been playing RPGs for 30 years. I have never seen anything more simplified and water-downed.
It's the same with weapon damage. And for tanking, it's footmans+hist still.Edited by Shunravi on May 29, 2015 5:52PMThis one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!2 -
docstrawb✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »
You want to talk about water-downed choices, what exactly do you think 1.6 is? Have you logged in a magicka build since February? There is only one choice: stack spellpower as much as possible and that means we all wear 4 pieces of Martial Knowledge + some combination of 2 piece spellpower bonus such as adroitness, torug's pact, etc. 95% of the other gear sets are uncompetitive trash. Now since someone has claimed that a specific set (the silks of the sun) offers a marginal increase for DKS, the price for a single piece of this set goes to $100,000 gold because everything else sucks. This is by far the worst gear situation I have seen and I've been playing RPGs for 30 years. I have never seen anything more simplified and water-downed.
This, IMO, doesn't warrant switching to gear progression. This is an issue with gear sets being not as various as they should. It calls for set balancing at best, and definitely a steady supply of new sets to keep it fresh. It doesn't warrant changing to a new, and in a lot of peoples opinion, flawed system that eliminates old sets and creates undesirable play and negative implementations into the game to wrangle said system.0 -
gard✭✭✭✭✭liammozzb16_ESO wrote: »So in other words... you're free AP in PvP, and someone I shouldn't group with in PvE?
I think you made it quite clear you aren't a competitive player, but thank you for your take on this.
On the contrary, I think I am a good player and also competitive. I just don't think that I have to grind new gear every 3-5 month patch to be able to stay competitive.
The reason for my assumption is this what you wrote:You play it with the wow mentality..no one told you to go and grind for CP..endgame of ESO is a long term goal/advancement that you earn while playing the game in a way that is fun...you do dungeons, you play alts, pvp and while doing all these, piece by piece you build a long term advancement..
If you haven't got atleast over 250 CPs by now, I doubt you stand a chance against the top end PvPers. The difference CPs grant you is enormous (in fact, much larger than any gear advantage I've seen in other games), which you probably should know if you're as good player & competitive as you claim.
So yes, no one is telling you to grind for CP, but then again, no one is telling you to grind for gear in other MMOs either. It's a choice you have to make.
Extending further, I could make the claim that gear based progression is much, much better for players who don't want to feel "forced" to do something.
"Gear grind" often means attending one or two raids a week, or going up the PvP arena ladder, so a few of hours at most.
Meanwhile, there is virtually no limits on CPs: the more you grind at max efficiency grind spots, the more powerful you become.
The former tests your (and your group's) skill level, while the latter only tests how much time you can dish out.Because I don't need to take advantage of the gear gap among players, that the "gear - progression MMOs" have, in order to win someone or be accepted in a group. I just need to use my gaming and social skills.
Isn't a game with no gear gaps more competitive?
That is an excellent question and something I've thought over a lot.
In a way yes, games without power differences between players are more competitive (everyone stands on equal ground), good examples would be FPS games, MOBAs (at the beginning, as the game progresses you may become more powerful than your opponents) & card games (again, there are some exceptions with certain hard to get cards being stronger than their counterparts).
But it's more complicated than that.
I believe competitive gaming is about achieving an advantage over others, as long as that is achieved by being good at the game, not by cheating or straight out buying it like in P2W games, that allows you to beat them.
Whether this is an OP skill/build, 1000 CPs more or strong gear, it doesn't matter (as long as you play by the rules of the game).
We all start equal, it's up to each individual to make what they can out of it.
That said, there is an exception. There is the concern of new players entering the game.
I'm fully in favour of giving new players catch up mechanics, which allow new players to catch up to veterans, which is what ZOS seems to be aiming for with the seasonal gear (if I'm not mistaken).
This is one of the better discussions I've read on the forums ever. Well thought out positions on both sides.
One question though; why can't the "catch up mechanics" be earning CP just like players who have been playing longer had to do? Otherwise the effort put in by the veteran player seems ... what's the right word.. diminished? Undervalued?
It seems ot me that the CP system already has a "catchup" mechanic built in. Diminishing returns.
I think I'd be rather upset if I spent three months attaining some level of power, only to have new players given the ability to do the same in a third of the time.
The only problem with that being think about the game 5 years from now. you have been playing for 5 years to get where you are now. a new player comes along do you expect them to to have to play for 5 years before they catch up to you?
its 10 years along now. you are 10 years strong now player b is where you was 5 years ago hes never seen end game because hes still trying to catch up to to the 10 year old players. player c joins the game hes ***.
That's the beauty of the diminishing returns built in to the CP system. As a veteran player, if I gain .1% by investing a champ point where a new guy gains 1.5% per champ point, it won't take long for him to catch up (at least to the point where the difference is relatively minor).
I don't have many cp at the moment though, so I haven't experienced how it scales once a person gets to (for example) point 101.
I guess the alternative would be to stop power advancement at some point, but then what's to keep the veteran player playing?
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Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »
You want to talk about water-downed choices, what exactly do you think 1.6 is? Have you logged in a magicka build since February? There is only one choice: stack spellpower as much as possible and that means we all wear 4 pieces of Martial Knowledge + some combination of 2 piece spellpower bonus such as adroitness, torug's pact, etc. 95% of the other gear sets are uncompetitive trash. Now since someone has claimed that a specific set (the silks of the sun) offers a marginal increase for DKS, the price for a single piece of this set goes to $100,000 gold because everything else sucks. This is by far the worst gear situation I have seen and I've been playing RPGs for 30 years. I have never seen anything more simplified and water-downed.
This, IMO, doesn't warrant switching to gear progression. This is an issue with gear sets being not as various as they should. It calls for set balancing at best, and definitely a steady supply of new sets to keep it fresh. It doesn't warrant changing to a new, and in a lot of peoples opinion, flawed system that eliminates old sets and creates undesirable play and negative implementations into the game to wrangle said system.
Sorry if I don't put much stock in the faith you have in ZoS to actually balance these sets (something that have only proven terrible at) or in what you feel is warranted as you have openly called those who disagreed with you "narrow minded." All I see is someone who disparages how other people play and their motivations for doing so with the weak justification that somehow ESO would be better off if ZoS just ignored the "narrow minded" paying customers.Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
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"Weekly grind", you seem to still think that gear progression=PvE raiding. Not the case. Most modern MMOs have excellent gear from PvP as well, and ESO seems keen on having strong gear drop from 4-man content as well (Master's Weapons).
And yes, you do have options even now: a) be suboptimal or b) be optimal
If you don't use one specific gear set for your role, you are suboptimal. Simple as that.
But if those magical build generating elves that find your builds decide PVE bow #1 is the choice, you will be forced to grind that PVE content to get it without a choice. Don't want to be running around suboptimal.
Yes, and this is already the case.
The power difference in PvE between what I have currently, and what I'd get with a Master's Bow on off-hand (main bar is DW of course) is around 1-2k.
That is one piece of your hated gear progression that already exists in the game.
But rest of the gear? Invest 5 minutes of your time -> purchase/craft them. Game over.Oh yes, but it is nearly not enough. Besides, getting that bow would only allow me to do other content that rewards me with vendor junk in return even faster. What's the point?
This is a personal feeling that doesn't warrant changing the entire game system around. Many different ppl play for many different reasons, and switching to a narrow minded one sided system is not a solution for anyone but those narrow minded players.
Calling me narrow minded, how classy
Here's narrow minded for you: a person can't come up with an argument -> insult the other party.
No, it is not a personal feeling, it is a fact that nothing useful for PvE or PvP drops from the highest difficulty content in game (Sanctum Ophidia).
When you can link me a top DPS build utilizing Vicious Ophidian for example, that out damages Hunding's Rage on same slots, then we can talk.Also, I'd like you to explain how you link weekly caps and lockouts with "casualization". Do you know what "casualization" or casual content means, or do I have to explain it?
I have explained this already, but i will again. Gear progression leads to lockouts and caps to artificially extend content, so a guild with a steady raid group can't get all of their gear in a week and get back to complaining for something new. The number requirement for a group, which grows larger in size to act as a "difficulty" for aquiring gear directly leads to more casual players complaining about not getting to even see content. That leads directly to casualization, ie:Raidfinder. I believe you mentioned leaving WOW for this very reason.
Ok, so I do have to explain it.
Casual content = accessible, easy to do
Content with lockouts and caps (e.g. top tier raids) = not accessible, not easy to do.
The antithesis of "casualization".
LFR, easier raids & over all dumbed down mechanics & content? Yes, content becoming more casual, but don't mix lockouts and caps into it, they are the very opposite.
And no, I did not mention why I left WoW 7 years ago (you seem to have a fixation on my gaming history).
I can say it happened due to social reasons and the game was far from the casual mess it became after I left it (mid-TBC).
Back in the vanilla days, you had difficult content come out faster than 99% of the guilds had completed the previous content, and faster than anyone had gathered a full top tier gear set.
You had things like Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros, which only a few people managed to get and you were like "woaahhh" when you saw someone with it.
Good old days.There is always going to be one, and only one optimal setup for your role. When are you going to realize this?
The whole notion of there being viable options is ***.
That doesn't mean that the other options should be eliminated, reducing the depth. This, again, only applies to the min/maxers who carbon copy the same build. It doesn't apply to the players who want to try different option and discover niche builds, or possibly a new optimal build. When are you going to realize that?
Other options weren't "eliminated" in games like WoW, on the contrary. You actually had a reason to use other sets, since you hadn't come across the gear you needed yet.
Also, players have found out the optimal builds long time ago in this game, essentially making every other build suboptimal. You can find the optimal build by doing some simple maths. But hey, feel free to prove me wrong...
P.S. niche builds=free AP in PvP, lots of frustration in PvE.1 -
docstrawb✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »
Sorry if I don't put much stock in the faith you have in ZoS to actually balance these sets (something that have only proven terrible at) or in what you feel is warranted as you have openly called those who disagreed with you "narrow minded." All I see is someone who disparages how other people play and their motivations for doing so with the weak justification that somehow ESO would be better off if ZoS just ignored the "narrow minded" paying customers.
Quite the contrary. The request to put in gear progression is narrow minded, in that it eliminates all other playstyles and preferences, and boils it down to one. Find a group, repeatedly run raid, and have the best stats. The current system allows for a bit of that, along with a bit of other routes. I have been having a back and forth with one poster who I do feel is narrow minded. His entire arguement has been "I like WOW and not ESO so ESO should become WOW." ESO would be better if they keep up the system that allows for the variety, as opposed to switching to a system that only panders to one type of player. I can only imagine balancing is hard, since I have never seen anyone get it right, tbh. But if it is an issue, it should be attempted. It doesn't mean switch to a more one sided system that will alienate probably more than half of the playerbase, the ones who don't simply play the game for "auto maximum ownage" without any thought.1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭That's the beauty of the diminishing returns built in to the CP system. As a veteran player, if I gain .1% by investing a champ point where a new guy gains 1.5% per champ point, it won't take long for him to catch up (at least to the point where the difference is relatively minor).
I don't have many cp at the moment though, so I haven't experienced how it scales once a person gets to (for example) point 101.
I guess the alternative would be to stop power advancement at some point, but then what's to keep the veteran player playing?
Uh, sorry to disappoint you, but that's not how the scaling works.
First point is always 1% (on all passives), after which it goes to 0.6%->0.5%->0.4%, and after 20 points or so you get either 0.2% increase (everything that gets maxed out at 25%) or 0.1% (with things like cost reduction).
I did precise comparisons on this a couple months ago (comparing 500 & 750, 1000 & 1500 points), but roughly the difference between your 101 points and my 269 points (if you're playing a stamina build) is about 20-30% DPS & 10% sustain, or 30-40% burst damage.0 -
docstrawb✭✭✭Yes, and this is already the case.
The power difference in PvE between what I have currently, and what I'd get with a Master's Bow on off-hand (main bar is DW of course) is around 1-2k.
That is one piece of your hated gear progression that already exists in the game.
But rest of the gear? Invest 5 minutes of your time -> purchase/craft them. Game over.Calling me narrow minded, how classy
Here's narrow minded for you: a person can't come up with an argument -> insult the other party.
No, it is not a personal feeling, it is a fact that nothing useful for PvE or PvP drops from the highest difficulty content in game (Sanctum Ophidia).
When you can link me a top DPS build utilizing Vicious Ophidian for example, that out damages Hunding's Rage on same slots, then we can talk.
This is why I implied that you are narrow minded. Your side this entire thread has been, "I see no use for things so they should be eliminated. I don't like ESO, so instead of going to a game with a very common system, ESO should just become that for me, despite how everyone else feels." There is an amount of content grinding, but executed in a way that doesn't eliminate other sets by outleveling them. But that isn't good enough for you. It all must be destroyed. This arguement also doesn't warrant a switch to gear progression. New sets occasionally, sure. That is new content. Locking things down to one option, with one way to get it? Why?LFR, easier raids & over all dumbed down mechanics & content? Yes, content becoming more casual, but don't mix lockouts and caps into it, they are the very opposite.
And no, I did not mention why I left WoW 7 years ago (you seem to have a fixation on my gaming history).
I didn't lump lockouts/ caps in. They are a seperate but very much hated thing of their own, on par with casualization. A limit put on the player to keep him from progressing. I have been saying they are an additional drawback, not the same thing.
Also, here you go to jog your memory.
So you're really dying of curiosity to know why I'm not playing WoW? I feel this is very much off topic, but here you go:
Last time I played WoW was 7 years ago, after which the game has become increasingly dumbed down: raids & gear more accessible to people, easier content etc (and they've lost subscriptions because of it, what a surprise...)
Being a competitive player, I will never catch up skill-wise to people who have been playing the game 7 years longer.
The game is old, and I prefer the more skill based combat in modern MMOs.
To clarify, I have no interest in your gaming history. I have simply been boggled as to why you insist this game becomes a carbon copy, when you can just play the plethora of them available to you.0 -
Lord Xanhorn✭✭✭✭Geesh, I read all that crap and still no alternative to gear progression meaningful repeatable content.
At this point we have absolutely nothing. The idea of logging on at v14 to grind CPs to make my character .0001% stronger is infinitely worse than the idea of logging onto my v14 and running repeatable content at the chance to get a pc of gear that makes my character 5% better.
If you take away gear progression, you have nothing but CP progression which is frankly much worse since its a time thing and has nothing to do with completing fun or competitive content.I'm kind of a small deal!3 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Yes, and this is already the case.
The power difference in PvE between what I have currently, and what I'd get with a Master's Bow on off-hand (main bar is DW of course) is around 1-2k.
That is one piece of your hated gear progression that already exists in the game.
But rest of the gear? Invest 5 minutes of your time -> purchase/craft them. Game over.Calling me narrow minded, how classy
Here's narrow minded for you: a person can't come up with an argument -> insult the other party.
No, it is not a personal feeling, it is a fact that nothing useful for PvE or PvP drops from the highest difficulty content in game (Sanctum Ophidia).
When you can link me a top DPS build utilizing Vicious Ophidian for example, that out damages Hunding's Rage on same slots, then we can talk.
This is why I implied that you are narrow minded. Your side this entire thread has been, "I see no use for things so they should be eliminated. I don't like ESO, so instead of going to a game with a very common system, ESO should just become that for me, despite how everyone else feels." There is an amount of content grinding, but executed in a way that doesn't eliminate other sets by outleveling them. But that isn't good enough for you. It all must be destroyed. This arguement also doesn't warrant a switch to gear progression. New sets occasionally, sure. That is new content. Locking things down to one option, with one way to get it? Why?
Woah, that is such a nice straw man. How did you build it so obvious?
At which point have I said anything should be "eliminated"? Or that "I don't like ESO"? Or that I don't care how anyone else feels?
Please, elaborate. Or refine your argument, that one is laughable.
As for why there should be only one option?
Because that is the nature of things, mathematics dictate there is only going to be one setup worth using for maximum efficiency. Science. It matters not if gear progression exists in the game or not, this will always be the case.
Why "one way to get it"? I specifically stated that strong gear should come from both PvP & PvE (like in every other successful MMO out there).
Do you want strong gear to be handed to you in a silver platter, with zero effort required? That's where the game ends, and people lose interest. The very "casualization" you mentioned in your other posts.LFR, easier raids & over all dumbed down mechanics & content? Yes, content becoming more casual, but don't mix lockouts and caps into it, they are the very opposite.
And no, I did not mention why I left WoW 7 years ago (you seem to have a fixation on my gaming history).
I didn't lump lockouts/ caps in. They are a seperate but very much hated thing of their own, on par with casualization. A limit put on the player to keep him from progressing. I have been saying they are an additional drawback, not the same thing.
Ah, so now they're a separate "issue". Very well. How about not participating in such "hated content" (that exists in every successful MMO) then? I'm sure there will be something else you enjoy. To each their own.Also, here you go to jog your memory.
So you're really dying of curiosity to know why I'm not playing WoW? I feel this is very much off topic, but here you go:
Last time I played WoW was 7 years ago, after which the game has become increasingly dumbed down: raids & gear more accessible to people, easier content etc (and they've lost subscriptions because of it, what a surprise...)
Being a competitive player, I will never catch up skill-wise to people who have been playing the game 7 years longer.
The game is old, and I prefer the more skill based combat in modern MMOs.
To clarify, I have no interest in your gaming history. I have simply been boggled as to why you insist this game becomes a carbon copy, when you can just play the plethora of them available to you.
Well, for someone not interested in my gaming history, you sure seem to be asking a lot of personal questions & making even more assumptions (based on nothing).
But what am I "jogging my memory" for this time?
I have been equally boggled on why you insist this game should lack quintessential MMORPG elements such as gear progression, especially considering this game has been doing extremely poorly (bad reviews, B2P) without these elements.
All this, under the false (and proven false) premise that gear progression would "limit the options available to players" and that the game would become a "carbon copy" of... what exactly? A MMO? Are you going to say WoW? If so, when are we getting tab targeting, 2004 graphics and Azeroth in the game?
Oh, and when are we removing orcs from the game? WoW had orcs.
Mind boggling indeed.Edited by DDuke on May 29, 2015 7:26PM1 -
gard✭✭✭✭✭That's the beauty of the diminishing returns built in to the CP system. As a veteran player, if I gain .1% by investing a champ point where a new guy gains 1.5% per champ point, it won't take long for him to catch up (at least to the point where the difference is relatively minor).
I don't have many cp at the moment though, so I haven't experienced how it scales once a person gets to (for example) point 101.
I guess the alternative would be to stop power advancement at some point, but then what's to keep the veteran player playing?
Uh, sorry to disappoint you, but that's not how the scaling works.
First point is always 1% (on all passives), after which it goes to 0.6%->0.5%->0.4%, and after 20 points or so you get either 0.2% increase (everything that gets maxed out at 25%) or 0.1% (with things like cost reduction).
I did precise comparisons on this a couple months ago (comparing 500 & 750, 1000 & 1500 points), but roughly the difference between your 101 points and my 269 points (if you're playing a stamina build) is about 20-30% DPS & 10% sustain, or 30-40% burst damage.
Well that's disappointing. Do you think it could be used as the catch-up mechanic though, if the curve were changed?
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭That's the beauty of the diminishing returns built in to the CP system. As a veteran player, if I gain .1% by investing a champ point where a new guy gains 1.5% per champ point, it won't take long for him to catch up (at least to the point where the difference is relatively minor).
I don't have many cp at the moment though, so I haven't experienced how it scales once a person gets to (for example) point 101.
I guess the alternative would be to stop power advancement at some point, but then what's to keep the veteran player playing?
Uh, sorry to disappoint you, but that's not how the scaling works.
First point is always 1% (on all passives), after which it goes to 0.6%->0.5%->0.4%, and after 20 points or so you get either 0.2% increase (everything that gets maxed out at 25%) or 0.1% (with things like cost reduction).
I did precise comparisons on this a couple months ago (comparing 500 & 750, 1000 & 1500 points), but roughly the difference between your 101 points and my 269 points (if you're playing a stamina build) is about 20-30% DPS & 10% sustain, or 30-40% burst damage.
Well that's disappointing. Do you think it could be used as the catch-up mechanic though, if the curve were changed?
Perhaps, but a better solution would be making players below the avg. CP amount get double, or even triple enlightenment. You see, making these points less powerful later on makes them more meaningless also, thus taking away from the main point of the system (character progression).
Of course, in my opinion the best solution would be turning Champion System into horizontal progression, meaning you'd only have an X amount of points to allocate, but you could unlock a lot more passives by playing the game. Kind of like a talent tree, except one that unravels very slowly.
That way, they could also make the passives more powerful & exciting since you wouldn't have 3600 CP monsters with every passive (though they would've unlocked them all).Edited by DDuke on May 29, 2015 7:34PM0 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »
Sorry if I don't put much stock in the faith you have in ZoS to actually balance these sets (something that have only proven terrible at) or in what you feel is warranted as you have openly called those who disagreed with you "narrow minded." All I see is someone who disparages how other people play and their motivations for doing so with the weak justification that somehow ESO would be better off if ZoS just ignored the "narrow minded" paying customers.
Quite the contrary. The request to put in gear progression is narrow minded, in that it eliminates all other playstyles and preferences, and boils it down to one. Find a group, repeatedly run raid, and have the best stats. The current system allows for a bit of that, along with a bit of other routes. I have been having a back and forth with one poster who I do feel is narrow minded. His entire arguement has been "I like WOW and not ESO so ESO should become WOW." ESO would be better if they keep up the system that allows for the variety, as opposed to switching to a system that only panders to one type of player. I can only imagine balancing is hard, since I have never seen anyone get it right, tbh. But if it is an issue, it should be attempted. It doesn't mean switch to a more one sided system that will alienate probably more than half of the playerbase, the ones who don't simply play the game for "auto maximum ownage" without any thought.
Yes, I know you have been having a back and forth with another person. You are doing a wonderful job of misrepresenting his points and making up strawmen. You still don't get it there is a huge flaw in ESO's current system when it comes to variety / competitive builds and you still don't get that gear progression need not exclude or alienate players.
And, by the way, you should know that this probably the first time Duke and I agreed on anything Edited by Joy_Division on May 29, 2015 7:45PMMake Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »And, by the way, you should know that this probably the first time Duke and I agreed on anything
LOL
That is true.
Nerf damage shields (Kappa).0 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »And, by the way, you should know that this probably the first time Duke and I agreed on anything
You know... I think it just might be...This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!1 -
docstrawb✭✭✭Woah, that is such a nice straw man. How did you build it so obvious?
At which point have I said anything should be "eliminated"? Or that "I don't like ESO"? Or that I don't care how anyone else feels?
Please, elaborate. Or refine your argument, that one is laughable.
You have been implying things should be eliminated the entire time with the very thought of gear progression, actually. That is what gear progression does. Makes only one simple, Unenjoyable way to get the only piece of gear that matters. Not to mention complaining about ESO, and praising other games for their system.Ah, so now they're a separate "issue". Very well. How about not participating in such "hated content" (that exists in every successful MMO) then? I'm sure there will be something else you enjoy. To each their own.
Um...yes. I have been saying that the entire time. It is becoming clear that you aren't even reading anymore. Also proving my point. You would rather I go find another game, so you can have what you want? But you care so much about others and thier playstyle.....As for why there should be only one option?
Because that is the nature of things, mathematics dictate there is only going to be one setup worth using for maximum efficiency. Science. It matters not if gear progression exists in the game or not, this will always be the case.
Why "one way to get it"? I specifically stated that strong gear should come from both PvP & PvE (like in every other successful MMO out there).
Do you want strong gear to be handed to you in a silver platter, with zero effort required? That's where the game ends, and people lose interest. The very "casualization" you mentioned in your other posts.
First, to put your main bread and butter dispute to rest, optimal and viable are two different things. Someone with a viable, yet not entirely optimal build/set combo can easily put down someone with an optimal build and less skill. With that in mind, many people enjoy viable builds over optimal zerg builds. It fits their playstyle better. But it doesn't work that way in gear progression. So, please, give that a rest because it does nothing for your cause. As far as your claims of the silver platter and casualization, the actual good aspect of the current system is that it isn't gear dependant. It is mainly set bonus combinations and builds that drive the players success, as opposed to ilvls that trump them. To make it gear dependant would be a step backwards, as it has been done to death.But what am I "jogging my memory" for this time?
"And no, I did not mention why I left WoW 7 years ago (you seem to have a fixation on my gaming history)."I have been equally boggled on why you insist this game should lack quintessential MMORPG elements such as gear progression, especially considering this game has been doing extremely poorly (bad reviews, B2P) without these elements.
All this, under the false (and proven false) premise that gear progression would "limit the options available to players" and that the game would become a "carbon copy" of... what exactly? A MMO? Are you going to say WoW? If so, when are we getting tab targeting, 2004 graphics and Azeroth in the game?
Oh, and when are we removing orcs from the game? WoW had orcs.
Mind boggling indeed.
That is the point of ESO, the fact that it isn't the quintessintial MMO. The "quintesintial MMO" has been done over and over. People are sick of it. You keep repeating that every MMO must have this and that. That every successful MMO has them. There hasn't been a successful MMO since WOW by their standards. Every MMO has had this system since, outside of the occasional few. All have failed according to the books. Gear progression isn't auto-success. WOW's success can not even be solidly tied to the gear progression system. But besides that, people have wanted something different for a long time. This is one form of it. If it were up to you, every MMO would be the exact same? Cause thats what works, huh? No variety. Only carbon copies with a different company logo in the pause screen. Lastly, proven false? How, by you? I haven't seen it. I have only seen a repetitive set of weak arguments practically copy/pasted by you.0 -
docstrawb✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Yes, I know you have been having a back and forth with another person. You are doing a wonderful job of misrepresenting his points and making up strawmen. You still don't get it there is a huge flaw in ESO's current system when it comes to variety / competitive builds and you still don't get that gear progression need not exclude or alienate players.
And, by the way, you should know that this probably the first time Duke and I agreed on anything
Oh, I get that there is a flaw. The flaw lies in set balance and new content. Creating gear ilvls, causing ilvls to override all other aspects wouldn't solve that. Unfortunately, I am not too concerned with your take on my "misrepresenting his points and making up strawmen." Sorry.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Woah, that is such a nice straw man. How did you build it so obvious?
At which point have I said anything should be "eliminated"? Or that "I don't like ESO"? Or that I don't care how anyone else feels?
Please, elaborate. Or refine your argument, that one is laughable.
You have been implying things should be eliminated the entire time with the very thought of gear progression, actually. That is what gear progression does. Makes only one simple, Unenjoyable way to get the only piece of gear that matters. Not to mention complaining about ESO, and praising other games for their system.Ah, so now they're a separate "issue". Very well. How about not participating in such "hated content" (that exists in every successful MMO) then? I'm sure there will be something else you enjoy. To each their own.
Um...yes. I have been saying that the entire time. It is becoming clear that you aren't even reading anymore. Also proving my point. You would rather I go find another game, so you can have what you want? But you care so much about others and thier playstyle.....As for why there should be only one option?
Because that is the nature of things, mathematics dictate there is only going to be one setup worth using for maximum efficiency. Science. It matters not if gear progression exists in the game or not, this will always be the case.
Why "one way to get it"? I specifically stated that strong gear should come from both PvP & PvE (like in every other successful MMO out there).
Do you want strong gear to be handed to you in a silver platter, with zero effort required? That's where the game ends, and people lose interest. The very "casualization" you mentioned in your other posts.
First, to put your main bread and butter dispute to rest, optimal and viable are two different things. Someone with a viable, yet not entirely optimal build/set combo can easily put down someone with an optimal build and less skill. With that in mind, many people enjoy viable builds over optimal zerg builds. It fits their playstyle better. But it doesn't work that way in gear progression. So, please, give that a rest because it does nothing for your cause. As far as your claims of the silver platter and casualization, the actual good aspect of the current system is that it isn't gear dependant. It is mainly set bonus combinations and builds that drive the players success, as opposed to ilvls that trump them. To make it gear dependant would be a step backwards, as it has been done to death.But what am I "jogging my memory" for this time?
"And no, I did not mention why I left WoW 7 years ago (you seem to have a fixation on my gaming history)."I have been equally boggled on why you insist this game should lack quintessential MMORPG elements such as gear progression, especially considering this game has been doing extremely poorly (bad reviews, B2P) without these elements.
All this, under the false (and proven false) premise that gear progression would "limit the options available to players" and that the game would become a "carbon copy" of... what exactly? A MMO? Are you going to say WoW? If so, when are we getting tab targeting, 2004 graphics and Azeroth in the game?
Oh, and when are we removing orcs from the game? WoW had orcs.
Mind boggling indeed.
That is the point of ESO, the fact that it isn't the quintessintial MMO. The "quintesintial MMO" has been done over and over. People are sick of it. You keep repeating that every MMO must have this and that. That every successful MMO has them. There hasn't been a successful MMO since WOW by their standards. Every MMO has had this system since, outside of the occasional few. All have failed according to the books. Gear progression isn't auto-success. WOW's success can not even be solidly tied to the gear progression system. But besides that, people have wanted something different for a long time. This is one form of it. If it were up to you, every MMO would be the exact same? Cause thats what works, huh? No variety. Only carbon copies with a different company logo in the pause screen. Lastly, proven false? How, by you? I haven't seen it. I have only seen a repetitive set of weak arguments practically copy/pasted by you.
At this point, I'm not sure if you're trolling or what your deal is.
Let me try a different format, maybe something will catch:- No one is advocating for one, and only one, "simple and unenjoyable" (ah opinions...) way of getting strong gear, as stated about a dozen times so far. You should be able to get strong gear doing what you enjoy doing (be that PvE or PvP), just like in other successful MMOs (e.g. Arena gear in WoW, Warzone gear in SWTOR, PvP gear in Rift, FFXIV etc)
- Yes, ESO isn't perfect and I often complain about it. I confess, I'm no fanboy. And yes, there are other MMOs that do certain aspects better than ESO, as most people will tell you (e.g. WoW, Rift, SWTOR with itemization & end game PvE, Neverwinter with combat & Archeage/Black Desert with sandbox elements). No MMO is perfect, but that doesn't mean we can just ignore their flaws, especially when developers have stated intent on improving on them (going back to seasonal gear mentioned last summer).
- I am not saying you should go find another game, I am saying you should do what you enjoy doing in game You hate raiding? Do PvP. Honestly, I don't care what you do in game but stop with the straw men already
- Yes, and someone skilled with weaker gear can easily put down someone with better gear but less talent. Also, there is an optimal build with its optimal gear for everything, from zerging to soloing.
- I still have no idea why I was "jogging my memory".
- There is no such thing as a "quintessential (which you managed to misspell twice) MMO". I would google up that word if I were you.
- Please, no more straw men. You're cracking me up.
Edited by DDuke on May 29, 2015 8:23PM2 -
docstrawb✭✭✭
- No one is advocating for one, and only one, "simple and unenjoyable" (ah opinions...) way of getting strong gear, as stated about a dozen times so far. You should be able to get strong gear doing what you enjoy doing (be that PvE or PvP), just like in other successful MMOs (e.g. Arena gear in WoW, Warzone gear in SWTOR, PvP gear in Rift, FFXIV etc)
- Yes, ESO isn't perfect and I often complain about it. I confess, I'm no fanboy. And yes, there are other MMOs that do certain aspects better than ESO, as most people will tell you (e.g. WoW, Rift, SWTOR with itemization & end game PvE, Neverwinter with combat & Archeage/Black Desert with sandbox elements). No MMO is perfect, but that doesn't mean we can just ignore their flaws, especially when developers have stated intent on improving on them (going back to seasonal gear mentioned last summer).
- I am not saying you should go find another game, I am saying you should do what you enjoy doing in game You hate raiding? Do PvP. Honestly, I don't care what you do in game but stop with the straw mans already
- Yes, and someone skilled with weaker gear can easily put down someone with better gear but less talent. Also, there is an optimal build with its optimal gear for everything, from zerging to soloing.
- I still have no idea why I was "jogging my memory".
- There is no such thing as a "quintessential (which you managed to misspell twice) MMO". I would google up that word if I were you.
- Please, no more straw mans. You're cracking me up.
This is no troll. Just a difference in opinion, a common one that you can't seem to wrap your head around. One that has caused game devs to try and find another way due to the hatred felt by most players (albiet, not you.) But honestly, relisting the things you have been repeating doesn't work. Calling my arguments straw doesn't make yours stronger, nor mine weaker. (BTW, I just love how you jumped on that phrase, "strawman", is it, as soon as your buddy mentioned it. But that won't win any arguments.) It simply shows you are running out of steam. About time, honestly. At the end of the day, many will agree with you, many will agree with me. But a large group of players like that the game isn't gear dependent. They like that there are no lock outs and prog caps, because the system calls for no need. I have agreed all the way that there is a lack of new content, but will never agree that an entire system change, especially to a flawed, outdated one that most MMO players are tired of, need to be implemented. Even if, in the past it has been a quintessential (i made sure i spelled that right just for you.) MMO go to. There need to be new sets regularly in a system like this. There need to be tweeks to others to make them more viable. But most would, and according to this thread, do seem to agree that the drawbacks, not to mention staleness, of gear progression would do nothing but hurt this game. Argue that til you are blue in the face, I suppose. Or, you know, just keep calling my arguements straw and insulting my spelling. Your choice.
Edited by docstrawb on May 29, 2015 8:47PM0 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Calling my arguments straw doesn't make yours stronger, nor mine weaker. (BTW, I just love how you jumped on that phrase, "strawman", is it, as soon as your buddy mentioned it. But that won't win any arguments.)
You are right, identifying your arguments as the logical fallacies they are does not make them weaker than they already are. Heck, in this part I quoted there are a few logical fallacies...This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!0 -
No point in arguing with @dduke @docstrawb he has been trying to turn this game into another gear progression wow clone since day one. He has been on here for a year complaining about this issue claiming the game is unsuccessful, I guess making money and turning a profit is a failure who knew XD . He will never understand anything other then his own view and try's to belittle anyone who thinks different. Fact is many great points have been made but he chooses to ignore them. My question to you DDuke is why don't you play wildstar if a vertical gear progression system is what your after ? How well did that work out for wildstar XD......o wait it's going to free to play while ESO is atleast buy to play. So tell me @ddduke if gear progression is the pinnacle of MMO gaming why did its most recent iteration fall flat on its face ? If the ESO system is such a failure why is it continuing to grow ?
#horizonalprogressionforlifeEdited by Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO on May 29, 2015 10:15PM0 -
Callous2208✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If I may be so bold as to offer my opinion on this matter. Let me preface by saying I don't believe there is a solution as far as mmo's go anymore in regards to gear grinds or horizontal/vertical progression and let me explain why. It is our fault. We have created this monster. Or, I guess I should be specific; the so called "hardcore" gaming crowd has created this mess. So caught up in being the best, the fastest. Burning through content to reach an ever elusive pinnacle to satisfy some odd desire to be on top of a virtual world. We have singlehandedly taken the RPG aspect out of mmoRPG. And no I'm not just talking about RPing in general. Developers have taken notice and now only cater to the fair weather gamer who will leave for the next great concept at the first whiff of dissatisfaction. The purpose of this genre was to get a player lost in a virtual land with friends far and wide. Not rush through content ignoring every piece of dialogue and scenery to compare epeen's with the guy in Nevada.
tl:dr- Min/maxing, rushing to end game, chasing gear instead of enjoying a virtual world. Just stop. Slow down. Lets re-ignite the passion we once had for these worlds. Go play COD to flex your epeen, I hear they have a new one of those every few months.0 -
PKMN12✭✭✭✭✭
Posts like this make me facepalmCallous2208 wrote: »If I may be so bold as to offer my opinion on this matter. Let me preface by saying I don't believe there is a solution as far as mmo's go anymore in regards to gear grinds or horizontal/vertical progression and let me explain why. It is our fault. We have created this monster. Or, I guess I should be specific; the so called "hardcore" gaming crowd has created this mess. So caught up in being the best, the fastest. Burning through content to reach an ever elusive pinnacle to satisfy some odd desire to be on top of a virtual world. We have singlehandedly taken the RPG aspect out of mmoRPG. And no I'm not just talking about RPing in general. Developers have taken notice and now only cater to the fair weather gamer who will leave for the next great concept at the first whiff of dissatisfaction. The purpose of this genre was to get a player lost in a virtual land with friends far and wide. Not rush through content ignoring every piece of dialogue and scenery to compare epeen's with the guy in Nevada.
tl:dr- Min/maxing, rushing to end game, chasing gear instead of enjoying a virtual world. Just stop. Slow down. Lets re-ignite the passion we once had for these worlds. Go play COD to flex your epeen, I hear they have a new one of those every few months.
Min/maxing has been around since rpgs have existed as long as the original rpg. You can also optimize and role play at the same time, any who thinks otherwise gas problems that have nothing to do with the game.
If you're veiw was correct, then why did wow change it, if the any other mmo out at the time was better, why did wow succeed? why did ultima online have such major problems with player killers until they created a non- PvP server, in which then killed all PvP.1 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭If you can just buy the bis gear why even play the game? Having gear progression is what keeps people playing.
Imo the perfect game has a progression from crafted gear clear up to bis which is obtained from playing the harder content.
Do you live to upgrade your underpants and shoes? Because I certainly live to do more interesting and fun things.
A MMO is not different. Do you play to upgrade your pants and shoes? Because I certainly don't.
It's a sad WoWification that tainted so many games.
WoW created a sad mechanism that transforms players into muppets who live to chase the carrot on the stick.
I'd rather play a game that is like a good book or movie: entertraining and compelling because of its content, adventures, plot, not because of chasing the pants and shoes of level + 1.
What's the point of playing if not to progress? Is it just a social outlet? There are many other games before WoW that were about hunting for items, as a matter of fact I remember playing Final Fantasy or Dragon warrior trying to get those better items. As for a game that is like a book....I'm sorry but I play online to compete with other players, if I want story time I will play a single player game.
Look at humanity: do you consider getting cotton underpants and gymn shoes "THE" progress? No, there's an huge world that advanced in many fields. Open your horizon, there's more to a game than some purple pixels.
Also, I play EvE Online, a competitive game if ever there has been one. You won't find mudflation or Gear = Gear + 1 "progress" in there. However it's a 13 years old MMO still kicking. How? They keep releasing actual, playable content. And no paid expansion a la WoW, it's all included in the subscription.Vaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO1 -
Callous2208✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Posts like this make me facepalm
Min/maxing has been around since rpgs have existed as long as the original rpg. You can also optimize and role play at the same time, any who thinks otherwise gas problems that have nothing to do with the game.
If you're veiw was correct, then why did wow change it, if the any other mmo out at the time was better, why did wow succeed? why did ultima online have such major problems with player killers until they created a non- PvP server, in which then killed all PvP.[/quote]
This was my point. The min/maxing has gone too far. Its not used in conjunction with the other factors in the game, it's the only thing. And as far as your WoW comment, you just backed up what I was saying. Developers are changing to accommodate these so called mlg hardcore players. And yet these players are still complaining and jumping from one game to the next chasing that high. Everyone, including you, knows WoW succeeded by being the right game, at the right time and capturing that huge market. I can assure you its longevity is due to the initial appeal and loyalty it created long ago, not because of anything it's done to change with the times in recent years.0 -
i don't mind gear progression one bit in general as an means of continued game-play. what i am against are time locks- don't lock raids to a timer, and don't lock instances to a timer. if someone wants to play the same raid/group content for 20 hours straight to get a full set of gear, let them. i HATED WoW time locks.... if its the weekend let me grind the gear i want, the way i want, when i want. with the way ESO has been designed for gear, the only added stipulation is to keep crafted gear on par with end gear in some fashion. that may include adding more options to how crafted gear is made and customized/enhanced. crafting is already a major timer countdown so this shouldn't be modified to elongate the already long timers, but shouldn't be super easy either.
i second the following post:Robotmafia wrote: »well I wouldn't say gear farming isn't a part of this game... I know a lot of people who already farm certain dungeons for a specific piece of gear... pledges and the "new" 2 pieces sets are good example... master weapon farms.. and so on... but at an end game HC level that is normal and not even that bad... you need some kind of motivation to play content more than a few times... take most racing games for example... u spend 90% of the time wanting a better car and as soon as u have the best car the game is beat and you race a few more times and that's it... incentive drives people to play...
on the otherhand I completely agree that there should be a large portion of the game where all this isn't important.. which it isn't atm... which is good... I like the hardmode concept of giving us the choice.. normal mode should be doable without optimal gear, builds and skill... but there also needs to be a portion for the high end players... I personally enjoy fine tuning my build and gear and then completing harder challenges..
I will work. I will save. I will sacrifice. I will endure. I will fight cheerfully and do my utmost, as if the whole issue of the struggle depended on me alone.
Martin A. Treptow
1894-19180 -
PKMN12✭✭✭✭✭If you can just buy the bis gear why even play the game? Having gear progression is what keeps people playing.
Imo the perfect game has a progression from crafted gear clear up to bis which is obtained from playing the harder content.
Do you live to upgrade your underpants and shoes? Because I certainly live to do more interesting and fun things.
A MMO is not different. Do you play to upgrade your pants and shoes? Because I certainly don't.
It's a sad WoWification that tainted so many games.
WoW created a sad mechanism that transforms players into muppets who live to chase the carrot on the stick.
I'd rather play a game that is like a good book or movie: entertraining and compelling because of its content, adventures, plot, not because of chasing the pants and shoes of level + 1.
What's the point of playing if not to progress? Is it just a social outlet? There are many other games before WoW that were about hunting for items, as a matter of fact I remember playing Final Fantasy or Dragon warrior trying to get those better items. As for a game that is like a book....I'm sorry but I play online to compete with other players, if I want story time I will play a single player game.
Look at humanity: do you consider getting cotton underpants and gymn shoes "THE" progress? No, there's an huge world that advanced in many fields. Open your horizon, there's more to a game than some purple pixels.
Also, I play EvE Online, a competitive game if ever there has been one. You won't find mudflation or Gear = Gear + 1 "progress" in there. However it's a 13 years old MMO still kicking. How? They keep releasing actual, playable content. And no paid expansion a la WoW, it's all included in the subscription.
eve is also a game only maschochists play........sooooooooooooo.0 -
liammozzb16_ESO✭✭✭Callous2208 wrote: »Posts like this make me facepalm
Min/maxing has been around since rpgs have existed as long as the original rpg. You can also optimize and role play at the same time, any who thinks otherwise gas problems that have nothing to do with the game.
If you're veiw was correct, then why did wow change it, if the any other mmo out at the time was better, why did wow succeed? why did ultima online have such major problems with player killers until they created a non- PvP server, in which then killed all PvP.
This was my point. The min/maxing has gone too far. Its not used in conjunction with the other factors in the game, it's the only thing. And as far as your WoW comment, you just backed up what I was saying. Developers are changing to accommodate these so called mlg hardcore players. And yet these players are still complaining and jumping from one game to the next chasing that high. Everyone, including you, knows WoW succeeded by being the right game, at the right time and capturing that huge market. I can assure you its longevity is due to the initial appeal and loyalty it created long ago, not because of anything it's done to change with the times in recent years.[/quote]
hes right i was known as the beardy *** who spent 1500 on 4 squads of space marines back when you could get vortex granades. +3 inv saves and 6 warp bubbles sucking up every ork on the table by turn 3 ahh those where the days.0 -
PKMN12✭✭✭✭✭Callous2208 wrote: »Posts like this make me facepalm
Min/maxing has been around since rpgs have existed as long as the original rpg. You can also optimize and role play at the same time, any who thinks otherwise gas problems that have nothing to do with the game.
If you're veiw was correct, then why did wow change it, if the any other mmo out at the time was better, why did wow succeed? why did ultima online have such major problems with player killers until they created a non- PvP server, in which then killed all PvP.This was my point. The min/maxing has gone too far. Its not used in conjunction with the other factors in the game, it's the only thing. And as far as your WoW comment, you just backed up what I was saying. Developers are changing to accommodate these so called mlg hardcore players. And yet these players are still complaining and jumping from one game to the next chasing that high. Everyone, including you, knows WoW succeeded by being the right game, at the right time and capturing that huge market. I can assure you its longevity is due to the initial appeal and loyalty it created long ago, not because of anything it's done to change with the times in recent years.
and then why can FF14, a game that has gear progression and is VERY MUCH about raiding, be staying P2P? why?
because your logic fails here, the REALITY is that the reason MMO's fail is that no company wants to put effort into it.
Look at FF14, it originally failed HARD, REALLY HARD. Square Enix then addmitted, that they screwed up, picked up the pieces, and created a whole new game, a game that is the ONLY game in the past 5 years to stay P2P. They still have the gear grind, they still have the hardcore PVP and PVE, they still have many mechanics of other MMO's that you say is hurting the games, but it is alive and well.
the BIGGEST complaint that ALWAYS pops up for every mmo is customer support. ZOS, Wildstar, SWTOR, does not matter, the biggest problem was that the company never talked to the players, never fixed issues, never had support that actually helped with problems. I can keep going on, but THAT is the biggest problem.Edited by PKMN12 on May 30, 2015 1:16AM1