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The new fear, Gear progression.
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Drazhar14✭✭✭✭✭If they start a vertical gear progression system, I will stop playing. I prefer the horizontal system where they add new styles and set bonuses.1 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭timidobserver wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »
I came to ESO from GW2 specifically because I could not tolerate the vanity item/cosmetic gear reward system they have going on(also because season 1 of the living story was horrible.) IMO, if you want to spend a year or more farming a cosmetic item there is already a game for you(GW2), but don't ask for ESO to be turned into that. If ESO players wanted that they would be playing GW2. I like that ESO has gear that actually does more than look different.
ESO is in between WoW's approach and GW2's approach, but mostly leaning towards the absence of gear grind and more towards GW2's cosmetics. If you don't want that approach I feel you're playing the wrong game.
I take it you are trying to troll or maybe you are just new to ESO if you think the game's current gear progression is cosmetic at all.
Nice fail at reading my post.
Um... how is ESO's system cosmetic? At all?This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!0 -
liammozzb16_ESO✭✭✭ok so you have your house and the armor you want, what now? whats left to do? you all seem to be stuck with the single player game mentality. the game needs to keep moving forward if it doesn't it stagnates and people stop playing.
Bigger and badder enemies show up with stronger weapons and powers, you have to get bigger and stronger to meet that threat.5 -
docstrawb✭✭✭
Common MMO players have also been conditioned to expect true raids, but they do not exist in ESO.
Again, there are many things that exist in various MMOs that do not in ESO, and the devs have stated in an official capacity on more than one occasion that they would like to do things differently than most other MMOs. That makes much of our experience in games like WoW a moot point in many regards.
Yes, and the point of this thread, if you bothered reading the OP, is to discuss the drawbacks if they do come into existence, making it not a moot point.That means they will have to make the PVE content that drops them less accessible, else it won't be harder to obtain. That almost always, in MMO history, means larger groups. That is where the player separation comes in, and on and on. A flawed system always ends up with the same end result.
The only flawed thing that I see here is the opinion that these things are a necessity, as they are based on experience that doesn't really pertain to the game that we are currently playing.
Yes, and another point of this thread is to show/discuss what would most assuredly, or if it makes you feel better, "likely" happen if they did begin to pertain to this game.Why not? What makes you believe this? There certainly hasn't been anything officially stated that alludes to this conclusion; in fact, the existence of several high-end sets that were once PvE-exclusive now obtainable from PvP actually speaks to the contrary of this opinion.
With this point, i hope you are right. Because honestly, IMO, PVP is the only place gear progression can actually work.I understand the point of the thread is to set up a hypothetical falling sky scenario, but I don't believe that's really warranted at this juncture as there isn't any concrete evidence to go on yet. At this point, I read it as nothing but plain sensationalism w/out a single fact to back it up, pure and simple.
It doesn't seem like you do understand. This thread was never advertised as fact. It is 100% about the possibility, and not the inevitability. So, I really don't understand where you are coming from with these posts. If you don't want to talk about it, leave the thread when you realize it is about a theoretical topic. But to bash the thread like this is honestly pointless, annoyingly repetitive, and accomplishes nothing.Edited by docstrawb on May 29, 2015 1:14PM0 -
gard✭✭✭✭✭So in other words... you're free AP in PvP, and someone I shouldn't group with in PvE?
I think you made it quite clear you aren't a competitive player, but thank you for your take on this.
On the contrary, I think I am a good player and also competitive. I just don't think that I have to grind new gear every 3-5 month patch to be able to stay competitive.
The reason for my assumption is this what you wrote:You play it with the wow mentality..no one told you to go and grind for CP..endgame of ESO is a long term goal/advancement that you earn while playing the game in a way that is fun...you do dungeons, you play alts, pvp and while doing all these, piece by piece you build a long term advancement..
If you haven't got atleast over 250 CPs by now, I doubt you stand a chance against the top end PvPers. The difference CPs grant you is enormous (in fact, much larger than any gear advantage I've seen in other games), which you probably should know if you're as good player & competitive as you claim.
So yes, no one is telling you to grind for CP, but then again, no one is telling you to grind for gear in other MMOs either. It's a choice you have to make.
Extending further, I could make the claim that gear based progression is much, much better for players who don't want to feel "forced" to do something.
"Gear grind" often means attending one or two raids a week, or going up the PvP arena ladder, so a few of hours at most.
Meanwhile, there is virtually no limits on CPs: the more you grind at max efficiency grind spots, the more powerful you become.
The former tests your (and your group's) skill level, while the latter only tests how much time you can dish out.Because I don't need to take advantage of the gear gap among players, that the "gear - progression MMOs" have, in order to win someone or be accepted in a group. I just need to use my gaming and social skills.
Isn't a game with no gear gaps more competitive?
That is an excellent question and something I've thought over a lot.
In a way yes, games without power differences between players are more competitive (everyone stands on equal ground), good examples would be FPS games, MOBAs (at the beginning, as the game progresses you may become more powerful than your opponents) & card games (again, there are some exceptions with certain hard to get cards being stronger than their counterparts).
But it's more complicated than that.
I believe competitive gaming is about achieving an advantage over others, as long as that is achieved by being good at the game, not by cheating or straight out buying it like in P2W games, that allows you to beat them.
Whether this is an OP skill/build, 1000 CPs more or strong gear, it doesn't matter (as long as you play by the rules of the game).
We all start equal, it's up to each individual to make what they can out of it.
That said, there is an exception. There is the concern of new players entering the game.
I'm fully in favour of giving new players catch up mechanics, which allow new players to catch up to veterans, which is what ZOS seems to be aiming for with the seasonal gear (if I'm not mistaken).
This is one of the better discussions I've read on the forums ever. Well thought out positions on both sides.
One question though; why can't the "catch up mechanics" be earning CP just like players who have been playing longer had to do? Otherwise the effort put in by the veteran player seems ... what's the right word.. diminished? Undervalued?
It seems ot me that the CP system already has a "catchup" mechanic built in. Diminishing returns.
I think I'd be rather upset if I spent three months attaining some level of power, only to have new players given the ability to do the same in a third of the time.
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liammozzb16_ESO✭✭✭So in other words... you're free AP in PvP, and someone I shouldn't group with in PvE?
I think you made it quite clear you aren't a competitive player, but thank you for your take on this.
On the contrary, I think I am a good player and also competitive. I just don't think that I have to grind new gear every 3-5 month patch to be able to stay competitive.
The reason for my assumption is this what you wrote:You play it with the wow mentality..no one told you to go and grind for CP..endgame of ESO is a long term goal/advancement that you earn while playing the game in a way that is fun...you do dungeons, you play alts, pvp and while doing all these, piece by piece you build a long term advancement..
If you haven't got atleast over 250 CPs by now, I doubt you stand a chance against the top end PvPers. The difference CPs grant you is enormous (in fact, much larger than any gear advantage I've seen in other games), which you probably should know if you're as good player & competitive as you claim.
So yes, no one is telling you to grind for CP, but then again, no one is telling you to grind for gear in other MMOs either. It's a choice you have to make.
Extending further, I could make the claim that gear based progression is much, much better for players who don't want to feel "forced" to do something.
"Gear grind" often means attending one or two raids a week, or going up the PvP arena ladder, so a few of hours at most.
Meanwhile, there is virtually no limits on CPs: the more you grind at max efficiency grind spots, the more powerful you become.
The former tests your (and your group's) skill level, while the latter only tests how much time you can dish out.Because I don't need to take advantage of the gear gap among players, that the "gear - progression MMOs" have, in order to win someone or be accepted in a group. I just need to use my gaming and social skills.
Isn't a game with no gear gaps more competitive?
That is an excellent question and something I've thought over a lot.
In a way yes, games without power differences between players are more competitive (everyone stands on equal ground), good examples would be FPS games, MOBAs (at the beginning, as the game progresses you may become more powerful than your opponents) & card games (again, there are some exceptions with certain hard to get cards being stronger than their counterparts).
But it's more complicated than that.
I believe competitive gaming is about achieving an advantage over others, as long as that is achieved by being good at the game, not by cheating or straight out buying it like in P2W games, that allows you to beat them.
Whether this is an OP skill/build, 1000 CPs more or strong gear, it doesn't matter (as long as you play by the rules of the game).
We all start equal, it's up to each individual to make what they can out of it.
That said, there is an exception. There is the concern of new players entering the game.
I'm fully in favour of giving new players catch up mechanics, which allow new players to catch up to veterans, which is what ZOS seems to be aiming for with the seasonal gear (if I'm not mistaken).
This is one of the better discussions I've read on the forums ever. Well thought out positions on both sides.
One question though; why can't the "catch up mechanics" be earning CP just like players who have been playing longer had to do? Otherwise the effort put in by the veteran player seems ... what's the right word.. diminished? Undervalued?
It seems ot me that the CP system already has a "catchup" mechanic built in. Diminishing returns.
I think I'd be rather upset if I spent three months attaining some level of power, only to have new players given the ability to do the same in a third of the time.
The only problem with that being think about the game 5 years from now. you have been playing for 5 years to get where you are now. a new player comes along do you expect them to to have to play for 5 years before they catch up to you?
its 10 years along now. you are 10 years strong now player b is where you was 5 years ago hes never seen end game because hes still trying to catch up to to the 10 year old players. player c joins the game hes ***.1 -
Gidorick✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think I'd be rather upset if I spent three months attaining some level of power, only to have new players given the ability to do the same in a third of the time.
I think this is a question of progression fundamentals. Some players think that new players should be able to progress quickly to match high level players to "even the playing field".
For me the whole Gear Progression isn't a question of whether or not it would work. It would work. I just don't think gear progression "fiits" ESO... it especially doesn't fit "Elder Scrolls". The ONLY gear that should have that type of power are Daedric and Aedric relics.
I need to read the rest of the thread to say any more and to see if the questions I have were answered.Edited by Gidorick on May 29, 2015 1:31PMWhat ESO really needs is an Auction Horse.
That's right... Horse.
Click HERE to discuss.
Want more crazy ideas? Check out my Concept Repository!0 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭They talked about seasonal gear but if it happens or not, I'm not sure what difference it makes. Does it really matter if you are grinding out gear sets over champion points? Still a treadmill.0 -
Lord Xanhorn✭✭✭✭I just don't get it. If you don't want a gear progression then you want what...All the best gear in the game be easily obtained through common crafting mats? Ok then what? Everyone has all Legendary gear on to do what? PVP? All PVE is rendered useless.
The only thing I can think of worse than running the same PVE content over and over again for the chance at an upgrade is running the same PVE content over and over again for no reason whatsoever.
So again, there is no other fun alternative. Once you run the content once, there is no reason to do it again with the absence of a gear progression.
Let's look at what is happening in reality based on our current system. The only content that gets run consistently is DSA and vet DSA since its currently giving good jewelry that is otherwise unobtainable through a crafting system. The big DLC that was supposed to make the game better Craglorn is a ghost town since everyone has run it once and there's no benefit to do it again or do any of the dailies.
TLDR: With no gear progression, the only fun thing to do at V14 is PVP and if you don't like the current AvA system, you're screwed....reroll a new toon and start over.I'm kind of a small deal!6 -
Gidorick✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Champion Points @Lord Xanhorn?What ESO really needs is an Auction Horse.
That's right... Horse.
Click HERE to discuss.
Want more crazy ideas? Check out my Concept Repository!2 -
Lord Xanhorn✭✭✭✭liammozzb16_ESO wrote: »
According to these people on this thread, CPs for the sake of CPs. All new content is just new content same as the old. Some new NPC telling you to go to some new place and press some new switch to see some new dialogue and probably talk to some new ghost NPC (cause this game loves ghost NPCS) for some new small inconsequential amount of XP and a few gps. This is what we should pay 20 bucks in DLC for. Ugh.I'm kind of a small deal!0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭So in other words... you're free AP in PvP, and someone I shouldn't group with in PvE?
I think you made it quite clear you aren't a competitive player, but thank you for your take on this.
On the contrary, I think I am a good player and also competitive. I just don't think that I have to grind new gear every 3-5 month patch to be able to stay competitive.
The reason for my assumption is this what you wrote:You play it with the wow mentality..no one told you to go and grind for CP..endgame of ESO is a long term goal/advancement that you earn while playing the game in a way that is fun...you do dungeons, you play alts, pvp and while doing all these, piece by piece you build a long term advancement..
If you haven't got atleast over 250 CPs by now, I doubt you stand a chance against the top end PvPers. The difference CPs grant you is enormous (in fact, much larger than any gear advantage I've seen in other games), which you probably should know if you're as good player & competitive as you claim.
So yes, no one is telling you to grind for CP, but then again, no one is telling you to grind for gear in other MMOs either. It's a choice you have to make.
Extending further, I could make the claim that gear based progression is much, much better for players who don't want to feel "forced" to do something.
"Gear grind" often means attending one or two raids a week, or going up the PvP arena ladder, so a few of hours at most.
Meanwhile, there is virtually no limits on CPs: the more you grind at max efficiency grind spots, the more powerful you become.
The former tests your (and your group's) skill level, while the latter only tests how much time you can dish out.Because I don't need to take advantage of the gear gap among players, that the "gear - progression MMOs" have, in order to win someone or be accepted in a group. I just need to use my gaming and social skills.
Isn't a game with no gear gaps more competitive?
That is an excellent question and something I've thought over a lot.
In a way yes, games without power differences between players are more competitive (everyone stands on equal ground), good examples would be FPS games, MOBAs (at the beginning, as the game progresses you may become more powerful than your opponents) & card games (again, there are some exceptions with certain hard to get cards being stronger than their counterparts).
But it's more complicated than that.
I believe competitive gaming is about achieving an advantage over others, as long as that is achieved by being good at the game, not by cheating or straight out buying it like in P2W games, that allows you to beat them.
Whether this is an OP skill/build, 1000 CPs more or strong gear, it doesn't matter (as long as you play by the rules of the game).
We all start equal, it's up to each individual to make what they can out of it.
That said, there is an exception. There is the concern of new players entering the game.
I'm fully in favour of giving new players catch up mechanics, which allow new players to catch up to veterans, which is what ZOS seems to be aiming for with the seasonal gear (if I'm not mistaken).
This is one of the better discussions I've read on the forums ever. Well thought out positions on both sides.
One question though; why can't the "catch up mechanics" be earning CP just like players who have been playing longer had to do? Otherwise the effort put in by the veteran player seems ... what's the right word.. diminished? Undervalued?
It seems ot me that the CP system already has a "catchup" mechanic built in. Diminishing returns.
I think I'd be rather upset if I spent three months attaining some level of power, only to have new players given the ability to do the same in a third of the time.
I don't think catch up mechanics should apply all the way to the top of the top, but merely close enough that the new player doesn't need a time machine to become a competitive player.
Lets say we're talking about CPs (diminishing returns aren't nearly as effective as you think btw): if the average amount of Champion Points amongst veteran players was 1000, then I'd expect new players be able to quickly get to say 900.
You'd still have an competitive edge if you spent a lot of effort, but it wouldn't be so off-putting to new players.
I get where you're coming from though as ultimately it does devalue the effort put in by veteran players, but I believe it is a necessary evil.liammozzb16_ESO wrote: »
Exactly so.
I could add that with powerful gear, you're rewarded for your skill as a player, be that beating other players in PvP or beating a difficult boss in PvE (which makes these encounters worth doing), where as with CPs you're rewarded for time spent alone (grinding goblins in a small cave for 800k xp/h).Edited by DDuke on May 29, 2015 2:36PM1 -
liammozzb16_ESO✭✭✭Lord Xanhorn wrote: »liammozzb16_ESO wrote: »
According to these people on this thread, CPs for the sake of CPs. All new content is just new content same as the old. Some new NPC telling you to go to some new place and press some new switch to see some new dialogue and probably talk to some new ghost NPC (cause this game loves ghost NPCS) for some new small inconsequential amount of XP and a few gps. This is what we should pay 20 bucks in DLC for. Ugh.
wait, wait, wait just so i know you are complaining about doing quests in a RPG game???????
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Rioht✭✭✭I absolutely hate HATE gear progression games. Destiny for example has a huuuge opportunity to make the game truly great by incorporating horizontal progression but instead retracted their design to a gear progression system with "light levels", a cleverly masked ilvl system.
Basically it goes like this:
1.) Get to max level.
2.) Just kidding time to grind gear to play the actual end game content.
3.) Yay you got the gear to play end game content.
4.) Time to grind countless hours for end game gear to get your ilevel up!
5.) Psych! Here's a new DLC with a higher ilvl requirements, time to grind gear to play it.
6.) Kidding again! Now that you can play the content its time to grind the "new" end game gear.
7.) Hey look more DLC!
There are a few (less obvious) issues with this system.
In destiny (similar to ESO) there are tons of different gear sets/weapons that the players could use. However, the second ilvl is introduced players are forced to use the latest and greatest gear to get their ilvl up. Day 1 of new ilvl gear = everything below that ilvl is considered useless and players now need to get the few (destiny would have 1 set per class) sets of the new ilvl. As such, any character at max ilvl would have THE EXACT SAME GEAR. This system pissed off a ton of players, and the ones who stayed were blindly ignorant to the issues this system incorporated. These became more apparent after the 2nd batch of new ilvl gear was released. At this point, it became increasingly clear that there was absolutely NO reason to chase the new gear. Why? Because by the time you get that gear you find out that it is obsolete again.
Players want to get attached to their character AND their gear. We don't want to find out our hard work and countless hours are for nothing in the end.
Developers aren't going to go and add another 100 gear sets every DLC that players can use to build their characters. Their going to add the bare minimum to make players chase the ilvl and be competitive until the next DLC to keep them playing. I hope, TRULY HOPE that ZoS is smart enough to realize that they cannot create a tiered item system and expect players to be happy and stay.
For a seasoned gear system to work, they need to bring all old gear along for the ride.
This can be done in 2 ways that I can think of:
1.) Old gear can be found in the higher ilvl areas/content or through scaled versions of the old content at the new ilvls.
2.) Upon release of ilvl's a new crafting mat is discoverable that allows items to be upgraded to a higher ilvl (rare to find of course). These items drop in addition to new gear sets at the higher ilvl.
Please ZoS, please do not funnel your players into uninteresting and uncustomizational end game gear sets based on ilvl and seasoned gear. Continue to support a system where players have countless options for customization and not have to abandon our gear every few months upon new DLC releases.
Edit:
Upon writing this post I looked up the new DLC for destiny, and have found they have actually gone the second route with the new DLC. There is of course new gear to be obtained, however there are also "etheric light" that can be obtained randomly by playing, and as loottable rewards for new content. This item can be used to upgrade guns ( it sure if armor as well) to the new ilvls.
This only further shows that a system like this NEEDS to be implemented if ZoS goes to a gear progression system.Edited by Rioht on May 29, 2015 3:44PM1 -
liammozzb16_ESO✭✭✭I absolutely hate HATE gear progression games. Destiny for example has a huuuge opportunity to make the game truly great by incorporating horizontal progression but instead retracted their design to a gear progression system with "light levels", a cleverly masked ilvl system.
Basically it goes like this:
1.) Get to max level.
2.) Just kidding time to grind gear to play the actual end game content.
3.) Yay you got the gear to play end game content.
4.) Time to grind countless hours for end game gear to get your ilevel up!
5.) Psych! Here's a new DLC with a higher ilvl requirements, time to grind gear to play it.
6.) Kidding again! Now that you can play the content its time to grind the "new" end game gear.
7.) Hey look more DLC!
There are a few (less obvious) issues with this system.
In destiny (similar to ESO) there are tons of different gear sets/weapons that the players could use. However, the second ilvl is introduced players are forced to use the latest and greatest gear to get their ilvl up. Day 1 of new ilvl gear = everything below that ilvl is considered useless and players now need to get the few (destiny would have 1 set per class) sets of the new ilvl. As such, any character at max ilvl would have THE EXACT SAME GEAR. This system pissed off a ton of players, and the ones who stayed were blindly ignorant to the issues this system incorporated. These became more apparent after the 2nd batch of new ilvl gear was released. At this point, it became increasingly clear that there was absolutely NO reason to chase the new gear. Why? Because by the time you get that gear you find out that it is obsolete again.
Players want to get attached to their character AND their gear. We don't want to find out our hard work and countless hours are for nothing in the end.
Developers aren't going to go and add another 100 gear sets every DLC that players can use to build their characters. Their going to add the bare minimum to make players chase the ilvl and be competitive until the next DLC to keep them playing. I hope, TRULY HOPE that ZoS is smart enough to realize that they cannot create a tiered item system and expect players to be happy and stay.
For a seasoned gear system to work, they need to bring all old gear along for the ride.
This can be done in 2 ways that I can think of:
1.) Old gear can be found in the higher ilvl areas/content or through scaled versions of the old content at the new ilvls.
2.) Upon release of ilvl's a new crafting mat is discoverable that allows items to be upgraded to a higher ilvl (rare to find of course).
Please ZoS, please do not funnel your players into uninteresting and uncustomizational end game gear sets based on ilvl and seasoned gear. Continue to support a system where players have countless options for customization and not have to abandon our gear every few months upon new DLC releases.
So basically i don't want new gear to upgrade my ilvl i want stones to put in my old gear to upgrade my ilvl
so now the bosses are all dropping stones instead of gear where do players who want new looking gear get theirs from?
you know instead of saying screw what other people want give me what i want try making it balanced.
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Rioht✭✭✭liammozzb16_ESO wrote: »
So basically i don't want new gear to upgrade my ilvl i want stones to put in my old gear to upgrade my ilvl
so now the bosses are all dropping stones instead of gear where do players who want new looking gear get theirs from?
you know instead of saying screw what other people want give me what i want try making it balanced.
Sorry I think you misunderstood, I will edit my post to make it more clear.
The "stones" from your example would be drops, in addition to the new higher ilvl gear. There would still be options for players who want to chase the new gear, and for those players who want to further progress their current build/gear.1 -
liammozzb16_ESO✭✭✭liammozzb16_ESO wrote: »
So basically i don't want new gear to upgrade my ilvl i want stones to put in my old gear to upgrade my ilvl
so now the bosses are all dropping stones instead of gear where do players who want new looking gear get theirs from?
you know instead of saying screw what other people want give me what i want try making it balanced.
Sorry I think you misunderstood, I will edit my post to make it more clear.
The "stones" from your example would be drops, in addition to the new higher ilvl gear. There would still be options for players who want to chase the new gear, and for those players who want to further progress their current build/gear.
fair dos then sorry for the crossed wires. i'm 100% for that and i don't see why they wouldn't consider it. it beats having to add in transmog too.0 -
Rioht✭✭✭liammozzb16_ESO wrote: »fair dos then sorry for the crossed wires. i'm 100% for that and i don't see why they wouldn't consider it. it beats having to add in transmog too.
All good, glad you like the idea
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Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Players want to get attached to their character AND their gear. We don't want to find out our hard work and countless hours are for nothing in the end.
NO, I don't. I want to do what has been an RPG staple for 40 years and a fantasy staple for thousands of years before that: Defeat the BBEG and use his big powerful sword of doom to smite my enemies.
Sorry if people think I'm an elitist min-max youtube snob who is utterly insensitive to the desires of others (be careful of the glass houses we live in, it goes both ways) and sorry for ruining RPGs and MMOs for them, but I don't want to use my grandfather's rusty and obsolete family sword for my entire adventuring career.Edited by Joy_Division on May 29, 2015 4:27PMMake Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.3 -
Rioht✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Players want to get attached to their character AND their gear. We don't want to find out our hard work and countless hours are for nothing in the end.
NO, I don't. I want to do what has been an RPG staple for 40 years and a fantasy staple for thousands of years before that: Defeat the BBEG and use his big powerful sword of doom to smite my enemies.
Sorry if you think I'm an elitist min-max youtube snob who is utterly insensitive to the desires of others (be careful of the glass houses we live in, it goes both ways) and sorry for ruining RPGs and MMOs for you, but I don't want to use my grandfather's rusty and obsolete family sword for my entire adventuring career.
Fair enough. Though, I'm not advocating against your choice to do so, if you choose.
My argument against such a system is that it greatly reduced the level of customization in regards to endgame viable gear when the only gear at the new ilvl is a small batch of new items.
Should there be a new big powerful sword you can use to smite you enemies? Hell yes.
Should there be an option for players to pick and choose from the large range of previously viable endgame gear sets and not have to be compromised with a lower ilvl because they want to expand their game? Hell yes.
Im advocating options rather than limitations.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Players want to get attached to their character AND their gear. We don't want to find out our hard work and countless hours are for nothing in the end.
NO, I don't. I want to do what has been an RPG staple for 40 years and a fantasy staple for thousands of years before that: Defeat the BBEG and use his big powerful sword of doom to smite my enemies.
Sorry if you think I'm an elitist min-max youtube snob who is utterly insensitive to the desires of others (be careful of the glass houses we live in, it goes both ways) and sorry for ruining RPGs and MMOs for you, but I don't want to use my grandfather's rusty and obsolete family sword for my entire adventuring career.
Fair enough. Though, I'm not advocating against your choice to do so, if you choose.
My argument against such a system is that it greatly reduced the level of customization in regards to endgame viable gear when the only gear at the new ilvl is a small batch of new items.
Should there be a new big powerful sword you can use to smite you enemies? Hell yes.
Should there be an option for players to pick and choose from the large range of previously viable endgame gear sets and not have to be compromised with a lower ilvl because they want to expand their game? Hell yes.
Im advocating options rather than limitations.
I can see where you're coming from, but that would be implying there are options in the first place, which really isn't the case since players are clever and test things out, resulting in them always finding the most optimal combination of gear.
In PvE, every competitive stamina DPS is using pretty much the same gear (stacking as much weapon damage as possible). Same goes for magicka builds (stacking spell damage, results in people using same gear with max. spell damage potential).
Only difference comes when an optimal setup requires something like Master's Bow/Dagger, or Master's Destruction Staff, which everyone can't simply get in 5 minutes.
So in a way, gear progression makes sure people aren't using the same gear (if they haven't earned it yet).
Same applies for PvP as well by the way, there's always one optimal (best performing) setup for stamina burst, stamina sustain, magicka burst, magicka sustain, tankiness and so on...
Choice here is the same as you have in other games: you can use the optimal gear, or you can use the suboptimal gear.
Min maxing be praised
That said, I do hope they add lots of different higher tier sets in the future (so that the optimal gear isn't obvious, and requires some thinking to find out).Edited by DDuke on May 29, 2015 4:53PM1 -
milesrodneymcneely2_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭We don't need gear progression. We have the Champion System. Run with it ZOS.
Run with it.1 -
docstrawb✭✭✭
My argument against such a system is that it greatly reduced the level of customization in regards to endgame viable gear when the only gear at the new ilvl is a small batch of new items.
Should there be a new big powerful sword you can use to smite you enemies? Hell yes.
Should there be an option for players to pick and choose from the large range of previously viable endgame gear sets and not have to be compromised with a lower ilvl because they want to expand their game? Hell yes.
Im advocating options rather than limitations.
Right on.I can see where you're coming from, but that would be implying there are options in the first place, which really isn't the case since players are clever and test things out, resulting in them always finding the most optimal combination of gear.
In PvE, every competitive stamina DPS is using pretty much the same gear (stacking as much weapon damage as possible). Same goes for magicka builds (stacking spell damage, results in people using same gear with max. spell damage potential).
Only difference comes when an optimal setup requires something like Master's Bow/Dagger, or Master's Destruction Staff, which everyone can't simply get in 5 minutes.
So in a way, gear progression makes sure people aren't using the same gear (if they haven't earned it yet).
Same applies for PvP as well by the way, there's always one optimal (best performing) setup for stamina burst, stamina sustain, magicka burst, magicka sustain, tankiness and so on...
Choice here is the same as you have in other games: you can use the optimal gear, or you can use the suboptimal gear.
Min maxing be praised
That said, I do hope they add lots of different higher tier sets in the future (so that the optimal gear isn't obvious, and requires some thinking to find out).
The bottom line here, and what Rioht is saying, is that gear progression does simplify/water down choices. The fact that most ppl are min/maxing, looking up the best build set combos to go in optimal leaves the question of who found these builds. The gear progression would destroy that, making the new high tier sets the automatic choice, taking away the whole beauty of the current system, which is for ppl who don't want to look up the optimal build. To find set/skill combos themselves, which is where the ones the HC min/max elitists use come from. It won't affect them, because that isn't their game. Their game is to look it up, equip it, and go fight. But they aren't the only players in the game.Edited by docstrawb on May 29, 2015 5:13PM0 -
Rioht✭✭✭I can see where you're coming from, but that would be implying there are options in the first place, which really isn't the case since players are clever and test things out, resulting in them always finding the most optimal combination of gear.
Thats a good point and is true that there are cookie cutter builds.
If I had the choice though, I would like to see the lack of variety amongst gear addressed instead of using gear progression as a general bandaid fix.
While not a typical MMO, I personally view the itemization of Diablo 2 to be my perfect example of how interesting gear variables can result on some very interesting build variations.
This results from gear taking a step away from the basic (and also boring) +stats attributes of gear. Gear may have +%dmg of a specific elemental damage type, +% life steal, +% attack speed, -%dmg taken from specific elements, +%dmg returned as Stam. +% range, +%dmg to specific skills, modifications to skills, etc etc.
As a result, there were TONS of possible builds available for each class.
I.e. if I was an amazon, I could focus on attack speed, lightning damage and +javelin skill modification gear and make a lightning javelin build.
OR
I could focus on Bow abilities, +guided missles/decoy skills and +magic damage/attack speed and go with a guided missile build.
Obviously this would tale a lot of work, but it would be interesting to see a lot of the non-set, unique item drops in ESO receive some interesting modifiers to make then viable options to the gearset prioritized current system.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I can see where you're coming from, but that would be implying there are options in the first place, which really isn't the case since players are clever and test things out, resulting in them always finding the most optimal combination of gear.
In PvE, every competitive stamina DPS is using pretty much the same gear (stacking as much weapon damage as possible). Same goes for magicka builds (stacking spell damage, results in people using same gear with max. spell damage potential).
Only difference comes when an optimal setup requires something like Master's Bow/Dagger, or Master's Destruction Staff, which everyone can't simply get in 5 minutes.
So in a way, gear progression makes sure people aren't using the same gear (if they haven't earned it yet).
Same applies for PvP as well by the way, there's always one optimal (best performing) setup for stamina burst, stamina sustain, magicka burst, magicka sustain, tankiness and so on...
Choice here is the same as you have in other games: you can use the optimal gear, or you can use the suboptimal gear.
Min maxing be praised
That said, I do hope they add lots of different higher tier sets in the future (so that the optimal gear isn't obvious, and requires some thinking to find out).
The bottom line here, and what Rioht is saying, is that gear progression does simplify/water down choices. The fact that most ppl are min/maxing, looking up the best build set combos to go in optimal leaves the question of who found these builds. The gear progression would destroy that, making the new high tier sets the automatic choice, taking away the whole beauty of the current system, which is for ppl who don't want to look up the optimal build. To find set/skill combos themselves, which is where the ones the HC min/max elitists use. It won't affect them, because that isn't their game. Their game is to look it up, equip it, and go fight. But they aren't the only players in the game.
Maybe you missed it (weird, I even put it in bold letters), but let me quote myself:So in a way, gear progression makes sure people aren't using the same gear (if they haven't earned it yet).
That's the whole idea of gear progression. Your scenario would only apply, if gear progression didn't exist (only better gear was released, but you would get it without any effort).
See, when you don't have the best possible gear (I don't, at the moment. Optimal setup for stamina NB single target DPS requires Master's Bow, which I'm still lacking), that's also when you need to think "what should I use until I get X gear", "what if I get Y piece of tier 2 before X, then what".
That, and it gives people something to work towards, an incentive to keep playing longer than the five minutes required to craft best gear available.1 -
docstrawb✭✭✭
Maybe you missed it (weird, I even put it in bold letters), but let me quote myself:So in a way, gear progression makes sure people aren't using the same gear (if they haven't earned it yet).
That's the whole idea of gear progression. Your scenario would only apply, if gear progression didn't exist (only better gear was released, but you would get it without any effort).
I didn't miss it. I just didn't acknowledge it because it is flawed reasoning. Gear progression insures that the only ppl who can remain competitive NEED that gear, and are forced into a weekly grind to get it regardless of whether or not they want to. It isn't a fun form of incentive. It is a mind numbing form. With the current system they have many more options.See, when you don't have the best possible gear (I don't, at the moment. Optimal setup for stamina NB single target DPS requires Master's Bow, which I'm still lacking), that's also when you need to think "what should I use until I get X gear", "what if I get Y piece of tier 2 before X, then what".
That, and it gives people something to work towards, an incentive to keep playing longer than the five minutes required to craft best gear available.
Then it sounds like you do still have incentive to play, which you've claimed from the start you don't have. All without the gear progression system that will lead to weekly caps and lockouts, and eventually casualization, which i have explained in other posts in this thread. Also, along with that would come the aformentioned watering down that would eliminate your questioning. The "what should I use til" would become, "naturally, I have to use x gear til".0 -
docstrawb✭✭✭
That's the whole idea of gear progression. Your scenario would only apply, if gear progression didn't exist (only better gear was released, but you would get it without any effort).
To address this statement, I never said better gear with no effort, but different gear. New sets to add to the pool of options and give incentive to find and try out, rather than gear progressions that leaves old sets in the dust, eliminating them as options. The problem at hand at the moment is a lack of new sets to work with, not a need for more powerful sets. That will just dilute the option pool and create less depth.
Edited by docstrawb on May 29, 2015 5:32PM0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Maybe you missed it (weird, I even put it in bold letters), but let me quote myself:So in a way, gear progression makes sure people aren't using the same gear (if they haven't earned it yet).
That's the whole idea of gear progression. Your scenario would only apply, if gear progression didn't exist (only better gear was released, but you would get it without any effort).
I didn't miss it. I just didn't acknowledge it because it is flawed reasoning. Gear progression insures that the only ppl who can remain competitive NEED that gear, and are forced into a weekly grind to get it regardless of whether or not they want to. It isn't a fun form of incentive. It is a mind numbing form. With the current system they have many more options.
Yes, and every other competitive player will also need that gear, resulting in competition. Oh no...
"Weekly grind", you seem to still think that gear progression=PvE raiding. Not the case. Most modern MMOs have excellent gear from PvP as well, and ESO seems keen on having strong gear drop from 4-man content as well (Master's Weapons).
And yes, you do have options even now: a) be suboptimal or b) be optimal
If you don't use one specific gear set for your role, you are suboptimal. Simple as that.See, when you don't have the best possible gear (I don't, at the moment. Optimal setup for stamina NB single target DPS requires Master's Bow, which I'm still lacking), that's also when you need to think "what should I use until I get X gear", "what if I get Y piece of tier 2 before X, then what".
That, and it gives people something to work towards, an incentive to keep playing longer than the five minutes required to craft best gear available.
Then it sounds like you do still have incentive to play, which you've claimed from the start you don't have. All without the gear progression system that will lead to weekly caps and lockouts, and eventually casualization, which i have explained in other posts in this thread. Also, along with that would come the aformentioned watering down that would eliminate your questioning. The "what should I use til" would become, "naturally, I have to use x gear til".
Oh yes, but it is nearly not enough. Besides, getting that bow would only allow me to do other content that rewards me with vendor junk in return even faster. What's the point?
No, currently the only reason I'm still even playing this game is to maintain atleast somewhat decent amount of CP, in order to tackle the next content they release (which I truly hope includes some gear upgrades).
Also, I'd like you to explain how you link weekly caps and lockouts with "casualization". Do you know what "casualization" or casual content means, or do I have to explain it?
That's the whole idea of gear progression. Your scenario would only apply, if gear progression didn't exist (only better gear was released, but you would get it without any effort).
To address this statement, I never said better gear with no effort, but different gear. New sets to add to the pool of options and give incentive to find and try out, rather than gear progressions that leaves old sets in the dust, eliminating them as options. The problem at hand at the moment is a lack of new sets to work with, not a need for more powerful sets. That will just dilute the option pool and create less depth.
There is always going to be one, and only one optimal setup for your role. When are you going to realize this?
The whole notion of there being viable options is ***.Edited by DDuke on May 29, 2015 5:37PM1 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
My argument against such a system is that it greatly reduced the level of customization in regards to endgame viable gear when the only gear at the new ilvl is a small batch of new items.
Should there be a new big powerful sword you can use to smite you enemies? Hell yes.
Should there be an option for players to pick and choose from the large range of previously viable endgame gear sets and not have to be compromised with a lower ilvl because they want to expand their game? Hell yes.
Im advocating options rather than limitations.
Right on.I can see where you're coming from, but that would be implying there are options in the first place, which really isn't the case since players are clever and test things out, resulting in them always finding the most optimal combination of gear.
In PvE, every competitive stamina DPS is using pretty much the same gear (stacking as much weapon damage as possible). Same goes for magicka builds (stacking spell damage, results in people using same gear with max. spell damage potential).
Only difference comes when an optimal setup requires something like Master's Bow/Dagger, or Master's Destruction Staff, which everyone can't simply get in 5 minutes.
So in a way, gear progression makes sure people aren't using the same gear (if they haven't earned it yet).
Same applies for PvP as well by the way, there's always one optimal (best performing) setup for stamina burst, stamina sustain, magicka burst, magicka sustain, tankiness and so on...
Choice here is the same as you have in other games: you can use the optimal gear, or you can use the suboptimal gear.
Min maxing be praised
That said, I do hope they add lots of different higher tier sets in the future (so that the optimal gear isn't obvious, and requires some thinking to find out).
The bottom line here, and what Rioht is saying, is that gear progression does simplify/water down choices. The fact that most ppl are min/maxing, looking up the best build set combos to go in optimal leaves the question of who found these builds. The gear progression would destroy that, making the new high tier sets the automatic choice, taking away the whole beauty of the current system, which is for ppl who don't want to look up the optimal build. To find set/skill combos themselves, which is where the ones the HC min/max elitists use come from. It won't affect them, because that isn't their game. Their game is to look it up, equip it, and go fight. But they aren't the only players in the game.
Are we talking about Elder Scrolls Online? Did you actually use the word "beauty" to describe this game's gear and character development system? Since this thread is about gear, let's leave aside the pointlessness of VR1-VR14.
You want to talk about water-downed choices, what exactly do you think 1.6 is? Have you logged in a magicka build since February? There is only one choice: stack spellpower as much as possible and that means we all wear 4 pieces of Martial Knowledge + some combination of 2 piece spellpower bonus such as adroitness, torug's pact, etc. 95% of the other gear sets are uncompetitive trash. Now since someone has claimed that a specific set (the silks of the sun) offers a marginal increase for DKS, the price for a single piece of this set goes to $100,000 gold because everything else sucks. This is by far the worst gear situation I have seen and I've been playing RPGs for 30 years. I have never seen anything more simplified and water-downed.
Edited by Joy_Division on May 29, 2015 5:46PMMake Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.4