Please do something against infinite roll dodge and Stamina builds :(

Dracane · May 2015

I know, this is a common topic and I don't want to qq. But I can no longer be silent about this.
Roll dodging is the worst thing, this game has ever seen.

How am I supposed to beat Nightblades ? They roll dodge forever, break free forever and can block forever. And IF I manage to hit (which only happens with a heavy lightning attack) it does nothing, because Nirnhoned eats the low damage.
I'm very desperate. Maybe this is not only a roll dodge and Nightblade problem, but a problem with stamina builds in general.

Stamina builds can invest everything into damage, and still have the highest sustain, because blocking and dodging is all you need in this game. I feel like blocking absorbs over 90% of the damage and stamina users don't even have to manage ressources, because it somehow never depleads.
While Magicka builds on the other hand, must go full sustain, because otherwise we're out after a few seconds and full damage doesn't help, because it never hits or is absorbed by the turtle block

And still, shield stacking is nowhere as powerfull and cheap as a roll dodge or block.

So, what am I supposed to say ? It's horrible. Roll dodge should be a 'Oh crap' button and should be something very VERY situational, that you use as a skilled step to avoid damage. But NOT hit it 24/7 to enter god mode. No.... no this is not how it's supposed to be. So roll dodge must be far far far more expensive or needs a reasonable cooldown. And in my opinion, nobody should be able to block forever either. Even blocks should be something situationnal to block damage. Which could be easily achieved by a stamina cost over time (because come one, block costs nothing at the moment)

I'm sorry for the long text and hope, nobody feels insulted by this, I don't mean to qq or scream for nerfs. But this is a serious problem in my opinion and many people I know agree.

Mos-De-Atmo · May 2015

Yes, roll dodging is a powerful escape and maneuver tool available to all players. Maybe they could increase the cost but that would probably hurt Magicka based builds as they can't use it often already...

Johngo0036 · May 2015

I am a stamina bld nightblade and i dont know how some of these guys are dodgerolling as much as the can,
Yes i die regularly ...

I have all my attribute points into stamina and all my armour enchants are into magicka. I have around 27 - 30 k stamina and cannot roll dodge as much as others......

And it is flipping frustrating, trying to hit someone with a bow that is diving around.

Jeckll · May 2015

Johngo0036 wrote: »

I am a stamina bld nightblade and i dont know how some of these guys are dodgerolling as much as the can,
Yes i die regularly ...

I have all my attribute points into stamina and all my armour enchants are into magicka. I have around 27 - 30 k stamina and cannot roll dodge as much as others......

And it is flipping frustrating, trying to hit someone with a bow that is diving around.

Woodelf +21%
Werwolf +15%
Nightblade passive +30%

Plus sets and Regen buff drinks. It's not about max Stamina, its about regenerating more than a Dodge roll costs.

To topic: It's annoying but not the worst part of PvP. Hope they fix other things first tbh.

Tavore1138 · May 2015

If they are dodging, blocking, sprinting or breaking free they are burning resources and not hitting you.

If they are needing to use break free then clearly you ARE hitting them.

If they are that heavily teched towards stamina regen then they are weak in other areas find the, exploit them, kill them.

For example have you heard of AOE and being mobile in combat yourself?

I would suggest you learn to habdle it in the same way we have to deal with stacked shields, bolting sorcs, perma-talons, jesus beams, wrecking blow spamming or any other tactic that is effective but sometimes annoying in the current meta.

Sharee · May 2015

Dracane wrote: »

Stamina builds can invest everything into damage, and still have the highest sustain

Sorcerers, shields.

And contrary to popular opinion, a stamina build that invests everything into damage cannot dodge roll forever.

QuadroTony · May 2015

all fine with roll dodge and stamina builds
do not touch it

Dracane · May 2015

Sharee wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Stamina builds can invest everything into damage, and still have the highest sustain

Sorcerers, shields.

And contrary to popular opinion, a stamina build that invests everything into damage cannot dodge roll forever.

Yes and what does the Sorcerer shield require ? Right, Sustain

You need full cost reduction to make this work or you will simply burn your Magicka for nothing in a few seconds. If you go full damage, your shields will be extremely expensive and you will burn your Magicka for shields instead of doing damage.

Stamina builds don't have this problem. They can go full damage and don't have any drawbacks.

Sharee · May 2015

Dracane wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Stamina builds can invest everything into damage, and still have the highest sustain

Sorcerers, shields.

And contrary to popular opinion, a stamina build that invests everything into damage cannot dodge roll forever.

Yes and what does the Sorcerer shield require ? Right, Sustain You need full cost reduction to make this work or you will simply burn your Magicka for nothing in a few seconds. If you go full damage, your shields will be extremely expensive and you will burn your Magicka for shields instead of doing damage.

Stamina builds don't have this problem. They can go full damage and don't have any drawbacks.

And that is where you are wrong. Stamina builds have exactly the same problem. Go full regen - your damage will suffer. Go full damage, and you can not roll forever. It is not possible to have both at the same time.

Jeckll · May 2015

Dracane wrote: »

Stamina builds don't have this problem. They can go full damage and don't have any drawbacks.

Did you ever play a Stamina build? The dodge roll build mentioned here sacrifices a ton of damage for sustain.

Qyrk · May 2015

just because they can roll dodge more doesn't mean it cannot be countered.

Dracane · May 2015

Qyrk wrote: »

just because they can roll dodge more doesn't mean it cannot be countered.

Tell me how ? All they do is dodging all of my attacks, CC me every 5 seconds, repeat this a few times=over and I didn't land a single proper hit.

Knootewoot · May 2015

Johngo0036 wrote: »

I am a stamina bld nightblade and i dont know how some of these guys are dodgerolling as much as the can,
Yes i die regularly ...

I have all my attribute points into stamina and all my armour enchants are into magicka. I have around 27 - 30 k stamina and cannot roll dodge as much as others......

And it is flipping frustrating, trying to hit someone with a bow that is diving around.

Most of them are woodelves. I can dodge roll for a long time but not indefinitely but after that I cannot fight anymore lol. I have werewolve, NB passives and the armor of the wind set and some potions.

What I really want to know is how some NB's seem to stay stealhed forever. Sometimes I just die with (what it seems) nobody around and the recap shows 5 times "concealed weapon". It even happens when I have detection potions active.

It this because of the can attack and press cloak so quick nobody sees the cloud?
Or because the can drink invisibility potions with no cooldown?
Lag?
Or a bug (sometimes, but no many times anymore, a groupmember would appear invisible. you only saw the white marker. But what is this "bug" happened on an enemy?)

Qyrk · May 2015

Dracane wrote: »

Qyrk wrote: »

just because they can roll dodge more doesn't mean it cannot be countered.

Tell me how ? All they do is dodging all of my attacks, CC me every 5 seconds, repeat this a few times=over and I didn't land a single proper hit.

The fact that they are able to CC you means that they are not roll dodging, which makes it a window of opportunity to land whatever CC/dmg you want. You claim that they are focusing into stam regen, which means (as others have noted) this takes away from dmg, which makes their attacks more manageable.

OdinForge · May 2015

Virtually every stamina build you see out there is running 2H/Bow.

This "infinite" roll dodging that everyone is complaining about is largely isolated to those using bow. If you take bow out of the equation, lose the speed buff that people use to stack it becomes a lot harder. It only seems like infinite roll dodge but there is a lot more going on than most people are realizing.

As someone who's been running 1H/2H (and enjoying it) with regen, and just switched to 2H/Bow for a few days. Night and day difference by just swapping weapons. The extra speed allows me to take pressure off dodge roll and regen my stamina faster. Since I'm not constantly near my opponents i can use that extra stamina for attacking instead of blocking or dodging which allows me to kill faster. This all increases my survivability ironically, despite losing a ton of defensive capability from 1H.

Also I'm not using any nirn, so while many people can seem unkillable dodging it's an illusion. Sorcs were able to blast me me on 2H/Bow, taking so much damage that i started to miss my 1H/2H combo. It's not just "infinite" roll dodging, it's the combination of bow speed and things like nirn. Once they fix nirn, a lot of these 2H/Bow stamina users might start feeling super weak. The many benefits i listed earlier, i would trade for being able to hold my own against strong magicka builds.

My regen is as high as i can push it, without sacrificing anymore stats. When using 1H/2H i cannot infinite dodge, because i'm literally dodging/blocking/casting defneisve abilities too much. Between CC, snares and slows and applying many defensive abilities to keep me alive it's just not possible.

Stop complaining about regen builds as a whole, those of us not running the super common 2H/Bow, with Nirn combo really cannot do the things you complain about. Blindly nerfing regen or dodge rolling will kill us and force us to do things like resort to 2H/Bow, Nirn and be like everyone else.

asteldian · May 2015

As mentioned, infinite dodge rolling sacrifices damage the same way specs and their constant shield does - both require regen sets/drinks instead of damage sets and food. Be grateful Templar has Jesus Beam as we can gang bang dodge rollers

Dracane · May 2015

asteldian wrote: »

As mentioned, infinite dodge rolling sacrifices damage the same way specs and their constant shield does - both require regen sets/drinks instead of damage sets and food. Be grateful Templar has Jesus Beam as we can gang bang dodge rollers

I can't agree on this. Roll dodging doesn't seem like a damage sacrifise to me. The roll dodge, attack+cc in under a secons, roll dodge again, strike, roll dodge, strike. It's unbelieveable. And in the future, when they have the passive from the (I believe it's the steed) which make stamina abilities cost 80% !!! less after a roll dodge.... good night.

Lorkhan · May 2015

ZENIMAX, I NEED MY LOL BUTTON BACK

idk · May 2015

I find it humorous that someone is complaining about stack builds dodge rolls and specifically having difficulty killing a NB, the only class in the game without a shield.

A guildie had multiple players attacking him and they could not even come close to doing damage to him. He is a magika build and was shield stacking. It wasn't until eight players were attacking him they could kill him.

Not joking around but it is best to Improve ones game play than to complain about someone else's skill.

Powtreeman · May 2015

I have to agree with everyone else here.
Dodge rollers are hella annoying but it sure is funny to stack curse and other spells on him and watch him roll away and explode.

Preyfar · May 2015

asteldian wrote: »

As mentioned, infinite dodge rolling sacrifices damage the same way specs and their constant shield does - both require regen sets/drinks instead of damage sets and food. Be grateful Templar has Jesus Beam as we can gang bang dodge rollers

Roll dodger here. Radiant Destruction and Soul Assault can do serious damager to a roll dodger, but we can also instantly stop that damage by throwing up a cloak. It stops the damage instantly, and we can activate the cloak mid-dodge.

While I'm not a perma-dodger, I've seen people dodge from the DC gates all the way to Rayles keep. And yes, they can still drop the damage and deal a lot of pain. There are ways to counter it, but with the right build, a magicka DPS can also gain up to 40% dodge chance on top of a roll build... making the entire thing a nightmare and a half.

The point is, when you can roll dodge all damage, and when you can instantly disable all things that CAN hit you (Soul Assault, Radiant Destruction) a single Nightblade has the potential to sit there and occupy half a dozen people focused on trying to kill it.

Varicite · May 2015

Dracane wrote: »

I know, this is a common topic and I don't want to qq. But I can no longer be silent about this.
Roll dodging is the worst thing, this game has ever seen.

Why didn't you post in one of the many other topics about this, then?

Dracane wrote: »

They roll dodge forever, break free forever and can block forever.

Nobody can do all these things forever on top of dealing damage. You can't even just block or break free forever. Gross exaggeration is not helping your case...

Dracane wrote: »

I feel like blocking absorbs over 90% of the damage and stamina users don't even have to manage ressources, because it somehow never depleads.

Well, it may feel like that, but you are obviously wrong on both counts, and you either know it or just being sensationalist. Why? I don't know. Clearly somebody like me is just going to come along and correct you.

Dracane wrote: »

While Magicka builds on the other hand, must go full sustain, because otherwise we're out after a few seconds and full damage doesn't help, because it never hits or is absorbed by the turtle block And still, shield stacking is nowhere as powerfull and cheap as a roll dodge or block.

Sorcs exist. Maybe you don't play one, but they do. They exemplify the opposite end of this spectrum and this is why they are the other most popular class in Cyrodiil, along w/ NBs.

Man, I hate having to do this. Why you make me do this? : /

OdinForge · May 2015

Smh, there is so much over-exaggeration here and misinformation. People truly have no idea how regen specs work, saying crap like roll dodging from one keep to another and putting out top damage. People who even try regen builds themselves, have no idea how the mechanics are working.

Same as Sorcs deflecting their questionably high damage by citing "good" NB that run nirn. Take nirn away and those NB will be nothing, they'll need to spec differently to combat Sorcs.

ZOS broke this game with nirnhoned, to the point where everyone has a jaded view of their own builds and everyone else.

AhPook_Is_Here · May 2015

An easy solution is to make it so roll dodging just reduces the damage you take similar to blocking instead of negating attacks.

OdinForge · May 2015

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

An easy solution is to make it so roll dodging just reduces the damage you take similar to blocking instead of negating attacks.

lmao

Lorkhan · May 2015

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

An easy solution is to make it so roll dodging just reduces the damage you take similar to blocking instead of negating attacks.

do this to shields

Bfish22090 · May 2015

Fossilize, daedric curse, lava whip, Jesus beam, soul assault, mass hysteria, magicka detonation, rune cage

These are all abilities to use against roll dodgers.

While were on the topic of OP, have you tried killing a sorc with 3 shields up, nirnhoned armor and ball of lightning running?

Heromofo · May 2015

Nerf Magicka builds people swap to stamina
Nerf stamina builds people swap to magicka builds

It never ends lol there are many ways to combat dodge rolls but sometimes these threads feel they are just people lashing out because they got rofl stomped hard by someone.

Nerf sorcs!
Nerf templars!
Nerf nightblades!
Nerf dragon knights!
Nerf stamina builds!
Nerf magicka builds!

What if the person your versing is just a good player with heaps of cps and a good build and hell a nice set of gear lol.

Thats tooooooo simple

*runs to the forums*

Shouts over powered and needa more nerfs!

Preyfar · May 2015

OdinForge wrote: »

Smh, there is so much over-exaggeration here and misinformation. People truly have no idea how regen specs work, saying crap like roll dodging from one keep to another and putting out top damage. People who even try regen builds themselves, have no idea how the mechanics are working.

You can easily attain high regen rates with the champion system, the right build AND still do near infinite roll dodges.

Infinite blockers tend to do low damage for their builds, but Nightblades can easily buff up 3K+ stam regen and do a fair amount of damage.

I'm not saying it's ideal, just that it can be done. With my base build (2H/Bow), I do 1.8K regen and 2.6K damage, and can dodge roll for quite a long time while still doing massive damage.

If I dropped Hunding's Rage and swapped it for Way of the Air, I could still do quite a bit of damage (after roll dodging). Hundings (gold) give 299 damage, Way of the Air (purple) gives 320 after dodging. Equipping Way of the Air (with my passives and Champion system additions) gives me about 500+ additional stamina regent, putting me at almost 2.4K regen, and still able to do quite a bit of damage. A Bosmer build would be looking at far, far more stam, same level of damage.

With 2.4K stamina regen, I can pop a Stam or Tripot and add another 20% to my stamina regen... adding another 500 to my stam regen and still able to dish out the damage, but I'm now able to dodge roll my little heart out. And people who've fought me in PVP know I can deal quite the damage. =D

TL;DR - you can easily have a build that allow you to high levels of damage with high level stamina regen AND roll dodge your heart out. It's not hard.

Sharee · May 2015

Preyfar wrote: »

Roll dodger here. Radiant Destruction and Soul Assault can do serious damager to a roll dodger, but we can also instantly stop that damage by throwing up a cloak. It stops the damage instantly, and we can activate the cloak mid-dodge.

Roll dodge works like sprint: while you are doing it, all your abilities are disabled. You can not even drink a potion until the roll completes. So no, nightblades can not activate a cloak(or anything else for that matter) mid-dodge.

Robotmafia · May 2015

lol seriously?? worst thing ever? what about sorcs teleporting half a mile in 3 secs... roll dodging 3 meters is worse?

FYI half a mile is roughly 800 meters... for those who don't know the conversion