Please do something against infinite roll dodge and Stamina builds :(

gard

Sorcerer pre-nirnhorn fix:




Everyone else post-nirnhorn fix:

Joy_Division

Varicite wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

• DK 20% stam bonus does not stack with tri-pots. NB does.
• Templar repentance is a skill that they have to actually slot to get that regen. The NB just have to use their favorite spam skill fear, amongst other possibilities.
• Why is the NB ability "really crappy" but the templar silly for not slotting something that scales off magicka and requires corpses to use?
• How is fear spamming NB, who uses a tri-pot, only 10% more the the GDB spamming DK, who also uses a tri-pot?
• If I am not mistaken and correct me if I am wrong, the Templar repentance skill only works while it is actually on their bar. So if they want it on their main bar, that means they are in essence playing with only 4 skills in a game where they want 6. Also health regen is worthless, magicka regen is easily acquired via other means. Slotting this is not quite the no brainer you make it out to be.

It's true that the Major Endurance buffs won't stack, which is generally why I don't bother w/ GDB personally (I tend to rely more on Mountain's Blessing w/ Igneous Shield + Fossilize, Battle Roar, and pots for my stam management), but if we are comparing what the base classes get for stam regen, you can't exactly count GDB out of the equation. The downfall of DK stam management is that it relies on magicka usage, which you simply don't have a ton of as a stam build.

But still a NB stam regen >>> DK, which was what the point the poster you replied to made.

Repentance is a skill that provides good resources while slotted and great resources when activated. I'd definitely slot it on at least 1 bar, personally, as they don't really have stam regen coming from elsewhere as a class. Who cares if it scales if it scales w/ magicka when it costs nothing to use?

I care. I know it costs nothing, but amount of health and stamina you get is still dependent on magicka. So it doesn't slot great resources when activated. You say "I'd definitely slot it," which means I take it you are not a templar. As a templar, I will tell you there aren't as many corpses lying around as you think and the class's lack of mobility make it much more desirable to slot something else to compensate for that and instead have a passive regen.

NB ability costs magicka to use for the 10% stam regen, and it's activation effect requires 7 light / heavy attacks before it can proc a meh damage magicka projectile. It's not really very good for a stam build, when you need to conserve your magicka for Fears / Cloaks. Templar ability only needs to be slotted on your bar to work, and its activation is free. That's why it's a stronger ability. What "other means" are you talking about to get magicka regen as a stam build stacking weapon damage / stam regen? Tri-pots?

I understand it's par for the course to downplay those factoids that favor your opponent, but let's not neglect factoids. I'm no NB, but the impression I get is that the skill is used for the 8% berserk, which is a significant bonus, rather than the projectile. You get this on top of the 10% stam regen. As a templar, I will tell you we don't care about health regen, and we get out all the magicka sustain we want by slotting the atronach mundus stone or using the channel focus ability or through gear. Templars used to slot radiant aura to be stamina regen machines, but those days are long gone. I can tell you as a stamina based DPS for PvE content, you need a magicka based templar running repentance for sustain. The skill is not nearly the automatic you think it is.

I thought I was pretty clear when I said that NB does definitely have the easiest time managing stamina due to Refreshing Shadows being a passive effect, but to say that the other classes (excluding poor Sorcs, which I've soapboxed for pretty passionately) don't bring anything to the table is just silly.

You said a bit more than that. You estimate that a NB will have about 10% more stamina regen than a DK or a Templar. The only way that is arguable for a Templar is that the templar must slot a specific skill and it is a skill that you are mistaken that they all slot. There is a real opportunity cost there. For a DK, the stamina benefits from GDB not stacking coupled with the lowered ultimate regen make, to me, that 10% estimate overly generous. I would agree that a NB stam management is not "insane" as the poster you responded to. However, I do think the difference is worthy of distinction from the other classes.

There's a reason that NB got Refreshing Shadows, and it has everything to do w/ it being the only class that doesn't come w/ a class-based shield, large in-combat heals, or true defenses that aren't completely neutered by a potion.

I hear that a lot and I can't say I'm very sympathetic to the argument. What does it matter if NB have no self based heal when magicka and stamina NBs can easily access a very good ones? I understand harness and bone shield resist specific damage, but they still are good skills that are accessible. So NBs are given X passive to compensate them for not having Y ability, but they wind up getting Y ability anyway and now have both. BTW, I'm not banging on NBs here. The argument that sorcs raise their OP shields are needed because they have no heal or are "forced" to wear light armor are just as nonsensical IMHO.

NBs can have the passive and good for them they actually got a useful one. But I do not think it is ought to be compared with something a Templar actually has to slot.

Varicite

Joy_Division wrote: »

But still a NB stam regen >>> DK, which was what the point the poster you replied to made.

I've never once said that it wasn't. The gap just isn't as large as people want to make it out to be, and exists for a reason.

Joy_Division wrote: »

I understand it's par for the course to downplay those factoids that favor your opponent, but let's not neglect factoids. I'm no NB, but the impression I get is that the skill is used for the 8% berserk, which is a significant bonus, rather than the projectile. You get this on top of the 10% stam regen. As a templar, I will tell you we don't care about health regen, and we get out all the magicka sustain we want by slotting the atronach mundus stone or using the channel focus ability or through gear. Templars used to slot radiant aura to be stamina regen machines, but those days are long gone. I can tell you as a stamina based DPS for PvE content, you need a magicka based templar running repentance for sustain. The skill is not nearly the automatic you think it is.

You slot the skill, you get the regen. You use the skill, you get more resources for free. I'm not sure how much more automatic you want a skill to be.

Your problem w/ it seems to be that it's not entirely passive.

Joy_Division wrote: »

You said a bit more than that. You estimate that a NB will have about 10% more stamina regen than a DK or a Templar. The only way that is arguable for a Templar is that the templar must slot a specific skill and it is a skill that you are mistaken that they all slot. There is a real opportunity cost there.

Again, your real issue w/ Repentance isn't that 10% stam / magicka regen isn't good, or that free resources when activating it isn't good. It's that it isn't completely passive. Your problem seems to be "It isn't Refreshing Shadows though".

You're right, it's not Refreshing Shadows, but why downplay its benefits simply because it's different? Sure, some may value mobility more than the regen it provides, but we weren't discussing mobility. We were discussing NB's "insane regen", and I was pointing out that other classes also have access to some pretty decent tools for sustain.

Joy_Division wrote: »

For a DK, the stamina benefits from GDB not stacking coupled with the lowered ultimate regen make, to me, that 10% estimate overly generous.

And you are completely discounting both Mountain's Blessing and Battle Roar in your estimation, I see.

Joy_Division wrote: »

I would agree that a NB stam management is not "insane" as the poster you responded to. However, I do think the difference is worthy of distinction from the other classes.

And I have tried my best to faithfully (and w/out bias) point out those distinctions, otherwise I wouldn't have listed a NB's tools for stam regen beside the others, or mentioned abilities that I don't personally feel are worth using (but others do, so I did).

You talk about "opportunity costs". What if I told you that I even slot Siphoning Attacks on my NB, even though it costs a bar slot AND lowers my damage by a decent amount? That I feel that tradeoff is worth it for what I want the skill to do, which is help me to sustain, and I even put up w/ toggling it on and off as necessary.

Maybe that's why I don't feel the opportunity cost for something like Repentance is really all that much. If you want regen, but you don't feel that wasting a whole slot on it is worth it, that's your prerogative. Others may not feel the same.

Joy_Division wrote: »

What does it matter if NB have no self based heal when magicka and stamina NBs can easily access a very good ones? I understand harness and bone shield resist specific damage, but they still are good skills that are accessible. So NBs are given X passive to compensate them for not having Y ability, but they wind up getting Y ability anyway and now have both.

When each of the other classes suddenly doesn't have access to those very same tools ON TOP of their natural class defenses, then your argument might make sense. Until then, you're just grasping at straws on this one.

RollDodger

i like roll dodge
do not nerf pls

Zsymon

Roll dodging is only a problem for people that don't want to adapt their build to take on roll dodgers.

Something is only a problem if there are no counters, such as shield stacking for example.

Eejit1331

If I wanted to play dodge ball I would buy a dodge ball game.
They are buffing cloak for a reason. My assumption is because they have plans to "balance" infinite dodge rolling.

cozmon3c_ESO

If you're a magicka sorc, you are the weakest build against dodge rollers because of all the projectile attacks you use. Two things you can do to subvert a dodge roller is time your curse explosion with Dawnbreaker (fighters guild ultimate, choose the morph that increases damage, not the weapon damage one), it hits in melee range through dodge. Or use soul assault ultimate coupled with when you get a knock down or with curse burst. They are both low cost ultimates so they should come up often in one fight. Also your frags will hit if you are close to the target and have good timing with them coming out of a roll.

It's tough but it can be done, you just have to be patient, save the frag don't shoot it right when you get it proceed, and look for that extremely small window to hit them.

Oh almost forgot, if you spec into streak you can streak through the dodge roller stun them. Then hit them with a frag while they are cc breaking. Couple this combo with curse explosion and bam, they are basically done with one mages fury.

PeggymoeXD

Oh no, this guy is dodge trolling around like a crazy person while I chase him for some reason! Nerf him!

PeggymoeXD

gard wrote: »

Sorcerer pre-nirnhorn fix:




Everyone else post-nirnhorn fix:

I feel like I'm supposed to find the differences between these 2 pictures.

Pman85

Dracane wrote: »

I know, this is a common topic and I don't want to qq. But I can no longer be silent about this.
Roll dodging is the worst thing, this game has ever seen.

How am I supposed to beat Nightblades ? They roll dodge forever, break free forever and can block forever. And IF I manage to hit (which only happens with a heavy lightning attack) it does nothing, because Nirnhoned eats the low damage.
I'm very desperate. Maybe this is not only a roll dodge and Nightblade problem, but a problem with stamina builds in general.

Stamina builds can invest everything into damage, and still have the highest sustain, because blocking and dodging is all you need in this game. I feel like blocking absorbs over 90% of the damage and stamina users don't even have to manage ressources, because it somehow never depleads.
While Magicka builds on the other hand, must go full sustain, because otherwise we're out after a few seconds and full damage doesn't help, because it never hits or is absorbed by the turtle block And still, shield stacking is nowhere as powerfull and cheap as a roll dodge or block.

So, what am I supposed to say ? It's horrible. Roll dodge should be a 'Oh crap' button and should be something very VERY situational, that you use as a skilled step to avoid damage. But NOT hit it 24/7 to enter god mode. No.... no this is not how it's supposed to be. So roll dodge must be far far far more expensive or needs a reasonable cooldown. And in my opinion, nobody should be able to block forever either. Even blocks should be something situationnal to block damage. Which could be easily achieved by a stamina cost over time (because come one, block costs nothing at the moment)

I'm sorry for the long text and hope, nobody feels insulted by this, I don't mean to qq or scream for nerfs. But this is a serious problem in my opinion and many people I know agree.

roastedduck

Heromofo wrote: »

Nerf Magicka builds people swap to stamina
Nerf stamina builds people swap to magicka builds

It never ends lol there are many ways to combat dodge rolls but sometimes these threads feel they are just people lashing out because they got rofl stomped hard by someone.

Nerf sorcs!
Nerf templars!
Nerf nightblades!
Nerf dragon knights!
Nerf stamina builds!
Nerf magicka builds!

What if the person your versing is just a good player with heaps of cps and a good build and hell a nice set of gear lol.

Thats tooooooo simple

*runs to the forums*

Shouts over powered and needa more nerfs!

ppl never say nerf templars tho, its not like templar has any escape that makes it hard to stay close and bash their *** beam, or just simply put up a dmg shield and it will tickle

ppl really need to try all classes before they say nerf, i personally felt templars are garbage, dks are meh, nbs are trolls, and sorcs are just.....a bit too much

a question, do those roll dodgers kill u while they are rolling? no
do those shield stackers kill u while their shields are stacked? duh..
do jesus beams kill u on less than 3 v 3s? mehh
and dks are kings on 1 v 1s, and like a *** that just sticks to your butt on zergs

Ezareth

I tried to highlight this issue back in 1.6 PTS and again later with my "Rise of the Permadodger" post. I was told that I was just biased as a sorc so instead I rerolled my own nightblade. If you can't beat them(which I can given time), join them.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Yes to tweeking doge roll no to stamina builds cause if i recall stamina builds were just nothing before update 6 and now that they are why nerf them back to nothing?

Tankqull

Zsymon wrote: »

Roll dodging is only a problem for people that don't want to adapt their build to take on roll dodgers.

Something is only a problem if there are no counters, such as shield stacking for example.

wich shield stacking?
stacking a magica shield+physical shield wich every body can do but only other magica user suffer against?
or stacking a weaker shield with a stronger one wasting one ACD intsead of spamming the stronger one when beeing attacked?

k2blader

OdinForge wrote: »

You'll never understand, because nirn has left a blanket of confusion over you. You fight informed stamina builds and you hit like a wet noodle, while getting hit like a truck. Try running a stamina build without using any nirn. I have two gear versions of the same build now for comparison purposes. One dominates all including Sorc, and one gets ripped apart by half decent magicka builds. Same skills, same set bonus. One makes me understand why everyone hates stamina builds atm (for mostly the wrong reasons), the other one makes me wonder how anyone can defend Sorc.

I think you've nailed it. The underlying problem is nirn.

I'm a magicka sorc and do not use any nirn. So pretty much anything from a non-AFK VR14 hits like a truck if I don't keep my shield(s) up 24/7. Though even without nirn, I feel like I have some other options against magicka builds like block, dodge roll, reflect, BoL, and CPs that mitigate magicka damage.

Nirn should be a good trait-- maybe a little better than other traits due to it being more difficult to obtain-- but, like any other trait, there should be a give and take as to its usage. For example if someone were to choose to use full/majority nirn, he would be choosing to be very tanky against spells but noticeably weaker when it comes to damage dealing. All other traits should work similarly.

Basically a well-designed trait system would probably result in it being best to mix-n-match various traits depending on a player's aim, whether it be high DPS (glass cannon), "well-rounded," tank (survivability/sustain), or something in between.

Wreuntzylla

RollDodger wrote: »

i like roll dodge
do not nerf pls

How did this gem of a post escape notice????

Lava_Croft

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

RollDodger wrote: »

i like roll dodge
do not nerf pls

How did this gem of a post escape notice????

It dodged.

Robbmrp

Dracane wrote: »

I know, this is a common topic and I don't want to qq. But I can no longer be silent about this.
Roll dodging is the worst thing, this game has ever seen.

How am I supposed to beat Nightblades ? They roll dodge forever, break free forever and can block forever. And IF I manage to hit (which only happens with a heavy lightning attack) it does nothing, because Nirnhoned eats the low damage.
I'm very desperate. Maybe this is not only a roll dodge and Nightblade problem, but a problem with stamina builds in general.

Stamina builds can invest everything into damage, and still have the highest sustain, because blocking and dodging is all you need in this game. I feel like blocking absorbs over 90% of the damage and stamina users don't even have to manage ressources, because it somehow never depleads.
While Magicka builds on the other hand, must go full sustain, because otherwise we're out after a few seconds and full damage doesn't help, because it never hits or is absorbed by the turtle block And still, shield stacking is nowhere as powerfull and cheap as a roll dodge or block.

So, what am I supposed to say ? It's horrible. Roll dodge should be a 'Oh crap' button and should be something very VERY situational, that you use as a skilled step to avoid damage. But NOT hit it 24/7 to enter god mode. No.... no this is not how it's supposed to be. So roll dodge must be far far far more expensive or needs a reasonable cooldown. And in my opinion, nobody should be able to block forever either. Even blocks should be something situationnal to block damage. Which could be easily achieved by a stamina cost over time (because come one, block costs nothing at the moment)

I'm sorry for the long text and hope, nobody feels insulted by this, I don't mean to qq or scream for nerfs. But this is a serious problem in my opinion and many people I know agree.

The easiest way to kill a NB is with the front tires of your car.....

Joking aside, it's all about stun. The more an opponent is stunned, the less they can counter/heal. Their health just fades away pretty quickly. Works good on those "unkillable" DK's also....

OdinForge

Reverberating Bash > 9/10 NB in Cyrodiil. Most NB are copycats, that follow a relatively simple skill rotation. As soon as they're faced with a situation outside the norm, they die.

kevlarto_ESO

Lets add to the list lets do something about the infinite bolt escape builds, lets do something about the infinite shield stacking builds, lets do something about insta kill builds,,, in fact lets just be naked and use our fists..LOL extremes are bad and there are a few of them..

Lynx7386

Stamina builds use dodge for defense in the same way casters spam damage shields for defense. It's fine as is.

kojou

OdinForge wrote: »

Reverberating Bash > 9/10 NB in Cyrodiil. Most NB are copycats, that follow a relatively simple skill rotation. As soon as they're faced with a situation outside the norm, they die.

Most players are copycats, that follow a relatively simple skill rotation. As soon as they're faced with a situation outside the norm, they die.

That's better... also add:

Then they log on to forums and ask for nerfs of things they don't want to figure out how to defend against.

Alcast

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Stamina builds use dodge for defense in the same way casters spam damage shields for defense. It's fine as is.

+

Domander

Ahem, nerf/remove drinks.

Joy_Division

Domander wrote: »

Ahem, nerf/remove drinks.

This was one of the things 1.6 got right. Many of the more experienced players use food. Many use drink. Both are viable choices and have different advantages.

Tankqull

Domander wrote: »

Ahem, nerf/remove drinks.

nah, if so reduce the value of reg setbonis.

Strider_Roshin

Sure, and while you're at it double the cost for bolt escape, blazing shields and green Dragon blood. Long story short stop whining and figure out how to counter it. Just because this mechanic is effective against you doesn't mean they should remove it.

Lava_Croft

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Sure, and while you're at it double the cost for bolt escape, blazing shields and green Dragon blood. Long story short stop whining and figure out how to counter it. Just because this mechanic is effective against you doesn't mean they should remove it.

Because 'do something' obviously means one thing: remove it.

OdinForge

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Reverberating Bash > 9/10 NB in Cyrodiil. Most NB are copycats, that follow a relatively simple skill rotation. As soon as they're faced with a situation outside the norm, they die.

Most players are copycats, that follow a relatively simple skill rotation. As soon as they're faced with a situation outside the norm, they die.

That's better... also add:

Then they log on to forums and ask for nerfs of things they don't want to figure out how to defend against.

Pretty much, compared to perma-block and perma-shield, dodge i would consider the weakest. Currently perma-block magicka builds can even completely negate dodge since abilities like whip and concealed weapon go through dodge atm. Sorcs have minefields and curse/detonation, Templars are on a completely different level and no one seems to know how to play that class, but there are a few.

Everyone else just dies and complains, instead of learning how to punch.

Domander

Joy_Division wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Ahem, nerf/remove drinks.

This was one of the things 1.6 got right. Many of the more experienced players use food. Many use drink. Both are viable choices and have different advantages.

The choice is nice, but it plays a clear part in letting regen get crazy high, without them a build focused on regen would probably need to sacrifice other stats.