The new fear, Gear progression.

Teiji · May 2015

Could you please stop advertising other MMORPG's in this forum.

"Wow this, wow that, wow, wow, wow."

Stop. The. Advertising.

Please.

This is a forum for The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited, not r/circlesomething.

Gear progression is in every-single MMORPG, so is character progression.

If you're against gear progression - petition for crafting gear to be removed from the game, petition for all gear to be removed from the game - force everyone to have to wear costumes, give everyone the same character sheet stats which they can modify with champion points. Weapons are dependant on the costume the player is wearing. There you go, no more "controversial" gear progression. While we're at it, we may as well remove levelling from the game too, because character progression is also terrifying, scary and lore-breaking.

docstrawb · May 2015

DDuke wrote: »

Yes, and this progression ends at "level 64" after which you're forced to grind goblins in a small cave for stat increases, because that is so much better than big, epic raids & loot *rolls eyes*

Yeah, forced to run those big epic raids for required loot *rolls eyes* (opinions vary, for this community, not in your favor)

DDuke wrote: »

So it managed to keep you around for 4 years? Must be boring indeed...

I believe he stated the common consensus on WOW. It isn't fun, it is purposely design to be addcitive. There have been studies to prove this. Thinking you might be a victim, actually. But no fear, I was one too. You can be cured.

DDuke wrote: »

Why spend hundreds of hours in that 10 minute long "raid" (trial) to get Vicious Ophidian with best possible traits, when you can just craft a better set for both PvE & PvP (Hunding's Rage) in 5 minutes?

I think you just helped our point. Who wants to spend hours in a raid when they can actually play with the build and gear they chose......got me.

DDuke wrote: »

You're saying you played WoW for 4 years, but never came across the PvP gear in that game? From personal experience, I can say I had zero problems in PvP wearing the blue (not even the epic one which was available for higher ranks) variant of the gear (I played rogue, shaman & shadow priest).

Of course the idea is that you get strong gear from PvP and you get strong gear from PvE.
That's how gear works in most MMOs.

He was commenting on the fact that recently, PVE stats were prioritized in PVP for their strength over PVP power and resilience, making the conq grind (oh, that lovely grind. I miss it so. DK/Disc Priest? We lose. Lets just keep queueing till we get a bad comp and hope our classes are the OP next patch.) pointless, allowing noobs to come in and faceroll experienced PVPers. IDK when the last time you played was, lol. I dont remember a time that blue gear was viable competitively..... ( and plz, don't try the "get guud" arguement. Everyone who's been there knows WOW PVP is paper rock scissors with a gear variable.)

But you still elude the main question I asked? Why don't you go back to WOW or the like instead of trying to spoil a different game. I could almost swear you were a Blizz rep at this point.

docstrawb · May 2015

Teiji wrote: »

Could you please stop advertising other MMORPG's in this forum.

"Wow this, wow that, wow, wow, wow."

Stop. The. Advertising.

Please.

Not advertising. Debating, using the obvious comparison. Wait til someone says "WOW, only 19.99 on bnet.com", before posting this nonsense.

Tors · May 2015

@docstrawb replyed to all points raised from my post by @DDuke far better than I could.

I played Wow for over 4 years (that was my time online. so way more than 4 years....) I was in top end guilds and performed well in the arena as well. Enough to understand fully that the encounters were almost allways decided on who had the most parts of the higher level armour.

This, ultimately was the reason I left, my point about how long I played was to illustrate that I DONT get board easily. I fully understood my addiction to the "EPICS" .

A few encounters in the WoW BG's where my team all had Arsecandy (if you dont remember it the first time around you probably wont understand, but it was a big sword) and the enemy didint have comparable gear, we destroyed them, so easily that all the fun went out of the game.

PvP players dont like to waste time in PvE encounters, part of the beauty of the pvp sytem in ESO is that you DONT need to be top level with all the gear (of course it helps) Teamwork and focus wins over a larger number almost every time.

With there being a large gap in quality between gear levels, this changes drastically. Dont forget currently there is NOT a massive difference between blue and yellow items and the difference between purple and yellow is mainly noticable on a spreadsheet.

Teiji · May 2015

Why not only discuss the mechanics of other games without mentioning the names of other games?

Because Blizzard marketing team says so.

Gear progression has been in-game since before launch.

Also, gear progression is currently existent in-game right now.

Zenimax has made a good game, how they continue to develop existing game systems, existing game systems related to things such as, but not limited to; gear progression and character progression which should come to light once console release settles down and we recieved information on Imperial City and the new crafting sets b]gear progression][/b], new dropable gear-sets [[b]gear progression[/b and all the other good stuff which comes with new content.

tl;dr Jet fuel can't melt steel beams.

docstrawb · May 2015

Teiji wrote: »

Why not only discuss the mechanics of other games without mentioning the names of other games?

Because Blizzard marketing team says so.

Gear progression has been in-game since before launch.

Also, gear progression is currently existent in-game right now.

Zenimax has made a good game, how they continue to develop existing game systems, existing game systems related to things such as, but not limited to; gear progression and character progression which should come to light once console release settles down and we recieved information on Imperial City and the new crafting sets b]gear progression][/b], new dropable gear-sets [[b]gear progression[/b and all the other good stuff which comes with new content.

tl;dr Jet fuel can't melt steel beams.

I can't help but notice you don't understand the type of gear progression we refer to. We are talking required raiding to be viable, prog caps and lockouts, etc. Basically, taking the fun out and replacing it with required work and frustration to even see content or feel like you matter. You know the "that which shall not be named" style of gear progression. Luckily, I forgive you, but only for your tl;dr.

DDuke · May 2015

docstrawb wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Here's a fun fact for you: about 50% of people I knew dropped the game last summer, because of disappointing end game.

Not because of bugs, not because of broken class mechanics, not because of lag, but because the end game was basicly just two ridiculously easy, 10 minute long glorified group dungeons that had zero incentive for running them.

Of course, my view is just a narrow one of a single person, but what I can tell you for certain is that you do not keep the hardcore audience playing without giving them incentives to do so, and this hardcore audience is the audience that makes the youtube videos & twitch streams, find bugs & keeps pushing the boundaries of PvE and PvP.
The audience which makes the game what it is and keeps it visible to gamers around the world.

Marketing that no money can buy, and without which no MMO can succeed, or even survive in most cases.

Players have been playing to beat big difficult bosses since the very onset of (MMO)RPG gaming. It is natural to expect these difficult bosses to be drop epic loot (just like in every RPG, ever). In MMOs, your character isn't there just to level up to max. level and then... just hang out with no purpose or goals.

Just out of curiosity, are you VR14 yet? Because the argument that no gameplay incentives are required, and that game being "fun" is enough are often presented by players, who are not even playing the end game yet.

It stems from the somewhat hysterical hatred that WoW gets from some people, which they automatically latch on to every other MMO they see out there.

"WoW has it, so it must be the pinnacle of evil and I must hate it"

Here's another fun fact for you: gear progression existed long, long before WoW, and it exists because it works and makes sense in a RPG. Developers are not idiots, they don't put things in because "WoW has it", they put things in because they believe they create a better gameplay experience.

Heck, even FPS games have started to incorporate RPG elements such as gear progression (Destiny).

So let's stop with all this WoW hate and start looking things objectively, shall we? Just because you can kill monsters or cast magic doesn't make anything a "WoW copy", nor does it make WoW a copy of anything. It makes a game RPG, and same applies to gear progression.

To conclude this, I'd like to ask you a question: how does having character progression via gear at end game hurt you in any way, if that gear is obtainable just by doing what you enjoy doing? If powerful gear was accessible via both PvE & PvP based on player merits (like in all modern MMOs), how would that be detrimental to your (or anyone else's) gameplay?

Just out of curiosity, of course

P.S. This game already feels like work, but one that I don't enjoy. Haven't you opened up Champion System yet?

Fun fact for you, 75% of the WOW players I know quit because of the beautiful carrot on a stick system. To say this type of system doesn't sustain playerbase is outright wrong.

Thank you for the wall of text, let me try to address it in a more constructed manner.

First of, you say 75% of the WoW players you know quit the game. Ok. It's still the most played MMO out there, that is to say: more played than anything these people moved on to, so there's that.

Maybe most people you know prefer single player games, where you finish the game (reach max. level) and then move on to the next thing? This is a very big demographic of players, so I wouldn't be surprised.

That is not how MMOs work. MMOs aim to keep people playing them, by offering them ways to impact their character.

docstrawb wrote: »

Have you never heard of a little game called diablo2? It is at this point graphically and mechanically obsolete and still has a playerbase because of its system. A system ESO is modeled after. A system people enjoy. Not to mention the successful clones like POE, Torchlight and even D3. Maybe not everyone likes it, obviously including you. But guess what, you have millions of options. Play WOW, Neverwinter, Rift, FF14, Destiny, SWTOR (should i keep going? If you can't find one of these wallbeaters, i can direct you to an endless landscape of them.) Don't try and turn the one drastically different MMO into the same thing.

As for the games you mentioned, none of them and their clones (ah, suddenly copying is ok... only when it's not the bad, evil WoW. I get it.) are real MMOs.

D2? Not a MMO, hardly even a RPG (being focused more on being an action hack&slash).
POE? Not a MMO, it's an online action RPG (again, more action than RPG).
Torchlight? Yup, not a MMO.

On the other hand, the other games you listed, what are they? Oh right, they are MMOs.

So how about you go play those online hack&slash games, and leave MMOs for people who enjoy MMOs? ESO is, after all, a MMO, whether you like it or not (and was marketed as such).

Here, have some wikipedia (you could have done this before purchasing the game):

The Elder Scrolls Online is a massively multiplayer online role-playing video game developed by ZeniMax Online Studios.

docstrawb wrote: »

To clear it up, also, I don't hate well done gear progression. But it doesn't exist anymore, due the the evil WOW (kek). It all leads to player separation, progress capping, lockouts, and an eventual casualization.

How did you manage to link so many contradictory things together?

Player separation, progress capping, lockouts? Those are the very opposite of "casualization", which means making things more easily accessible to lesser skilled/dedicated players.

docstrawb wrote: »

Yes, btw, I play endgame. It is glorious. It isn't about the once a week large group boss kill. It isn't about the weekly capped currency to buy gear. It is about going out and farming sets, crafting sets, trying things, tweeking..

Somehow I highly doubt that, since you seem to have no idea what you're talking about.
Out of curiosity, what sets are you trying to farm?

docstrawb wrote: »

A very successful RPG model, one of the most successful actually.

Really? I'd like to see some evidence of that. A game that had horrible reviews at launch, lost most of its playerbase last summer & had to relaunch as B2P title doesn't really scream "success".

docstrawb wrote: »

Simply the first time its been implemented into an MMO environment. If you don't like it, or the champion system, another successful model that allows near endless progression that actually comes from play time and not exclusivity and gear

You really just said that, didn't you? Well, congratulations. You are the first person I know that actually likes Champion System (though I suspect you still don't even know what it is yet).

docstrawb wrote: »

, doesn't mean saying the WOW gear treadmill is the only successful RPG model over and over makes it true, because it is not. So seriously, the question that bugs me the most. Why are you here? Why aren't you playing WOW? The comments on this forum show the majority doesn't want it. So your "I dont want raids so noone else can have them" accusation seems to be a trait you share. Lets us have our game, and go pick from your large choice of options, so we still have something to enjoy? That would be nice.

Really? Someone seems to be very out of touch with reality.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/172291/gear-wise-was-craglorn-enough
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/165801/no-incentive-to-do-end-game-pve
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/156800/most-of-the-end-game-guilds-are-dying-out-now/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/140249/end-game-rewards-where-are-they
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/114489/why-very-few-people-are-doing-dungeons-and-end-game
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/133691/no-end-game-no-mmo/p1

And just to amuse you by answering your question:

I'm still here simply because no new, fresh AAA MMO is being released in the near future. I'm sure other people are in the same situation (or have already quit), which will spell disaster for ZOS if left unchecked.

So please, do everyone a favour and go finish leveling before talking about end game and things that don't even affect you.

Rynier · May 2015

The option is already in the game as you have addons displaying your ilvl for you. So it could become a possibility. Wouldn't like to see it though.

docstrawb · May 2015

@DDuke Wow, lol. I think my wall of text beats out your giant edited quote, if you want to stoop to insulting structure to gain footing. So I can't really quote that mess. Sorry. But to answer the only questions that really mattered in your post, I already gave an example of this systems success. You might not have even bothered reading given your approach to the arguement. The example is Diablo 2, for the second time. It, and all of its point and click offsprings. It is 15 years old, very dated and still has a massive diehard playerbase, as does said offspring. I assumed you would know. It is a blizz game. Also, it is an RPG. A point and click RPG, lol...... and as I said, it's system hasn't been implemented in an MMO until ESO. Taking it to an MMO could only make it better, which in my opinion and obviously plenty of others, it has. But you said in your first or second post, this sytem doesn't work, which is false. It creates no drive to play, which is false. I, also, never defended copying, just mentioned them. It is disappointing how quickly your stance switched to calling out my supposed wrongs instead of trying to make a point. I was almost enjoying our exchange until that point. But I can play too. You are on ESO till another AAA MMO releases. For...your YouTube channel? Oh, ok. You couldn't have fun if you wanted. You are a min maxer who tries to make money from it. Come up with an original build yet? Or just uploading gameplay with cookie builds? Is the WOWtuber/twitch pool too big to get notice? So you pick a smaller one, and just hopes it becomes WOW. I gotchya.

And just to amuse you by answering your question:

I am at endgame, and find it odd that you seem so set on that not being true because I enjoy it. You play a game that you find impossible to believe anyone could enjoy? Oh, I keep forgetting about the Youtube thing. My bad. You see, I don't look up builds, I don't min/max. That is why I left WOW. It takes no thought, no fun to be had. The unofficial WOW motto, actually. No fun allowed. Just follow the recipe and Do your job. Yes, naturally anyone can do this in any game, Proven by ppl who follow the trends and whatnot. I personally enjoy theorycrafting. Farming those sets you don't believe I've reached (you really want me to list them, huh? Wouldnt't accuse me of naming random sets I know of? Or do anything to try and defile my credibility instead of actually arguing the point?) and trying new things. Seeing if something hits. Moving on if it doesn't. See, I don't rely on a group of judgemental players for approval. I enjoy my time on the game, alone or with others if they can stand me and I can stand them and do as I please. Am I first pick for trial day? Nope, don't wanna be. If I did, I would play WOW. As I assume you would if there were money in it. I'm not a min maxed boss hog elite. I am a guy who enjoys the metagame, and doesn't want to see it disappear, and avert to the same old cutout copy, especially when it is all for the sake of some YouTuber who can't wrap his head around playing a game for enjoyment. We play for different reasons, Bub. I truly hope you get in on your AAA MMO before the Youtube community grows too large to gain notice. You'll be rollin in the dough, then, huh big guy? Until then, play ESO if you want. But don't try and ruin it for those of us who play for a wholly different reason.

Earelith · May 2015

DDuke wrote: »

Yes, and this progression ends at "level 64" after which you're forced to grind goblins in a small cave for stat increases, because that is so much better than big, epic raids & loot *rolls eyes*

You play it with the wow mentality..no one told you to go and grind for CP..endgame of ESO is a long term goal/advancement that you earn while playing the game in a way that is fun...you do dungeons, you play alts, pvp and while doing all these, piece by piece you build a long term advancement..

The CP system is not there for you to finish it in a long grind. If you chose to do it that way, don't complain. For me this is the system I like..a long term advancement that I will slowly earn while playing the game in the way I want too.

One day I may do cyrodil dailies, next day dungeons, other day I do some pvp, then I play an alt.. all these slowly gives me CP..if you chose to go into a cave and grind for it, thats your problem.

The key point here is that when I log in there isn't something that I MUST do..there are many different activities I am free to chose to do that all contribute into the same goal..my account advancement.

docstrawb · May 2015

Earelith wrote: »

You play it with the wow mentality..no one told you to go and grind for CP..endgame of ESO is a long term goal/advancement that you earn while playing the game in a way that is fun...you do dungeons, you play alts, pvp and while doing all these, piece by piece you build a long term advancement..

The CP system is not there for you to finish it in a long grind. If you chose to do it that way, don't complain. For me this is the system I like..a long term advancement that I will slowly earn while playing the game in the way I want too.

One day I may do cyrodil dailies, next day dungeons, other day I do some pvp, then I play an alt.. all these slowly gives me CP..if you chose to go into a cave and grind for it, thats your problem.

Please take note of this, @DDuke . This is the attitude of the standard ESO player. Someone who DOES enjoy the game. Who DOESN'T have the WOW mentality he mentioned. Who enjoys playing the game for what it is. Different. That is the ultimate point. You have a million options for what you want. We do not. This is our game. We want to keep it as it is.

Gidorick · May 2015

Gear based progression is THE reason I quit destiny. The mechanic isn't for ESO. I've never said 'I'll quit if' but If this comes to pass I'm pretty sure I'll lose interest in this game too.

Drelkag · May 2015

If they add a gear progression like WoW/FFXIV I'm done with this game. It'd be hard to quit too since I pretty much love the foundation ESO is built on, but a never-ending treadmill to keep the best equipment will just destroy it.

I love the system ESO has in place, where a crafted set for special bonuses is always the best. Of course it can be fixed up some by making not just a few sets viable, but the system itself is solid. I want horizontal progression - more options that don't raise the ceiling when it comes to just being better incrementally but offer more choices of play styles.

If they keep going with the planned DLC approach I can see this system staying in place for awhile. If they add gear that is only obtained from Trials or something of the sort, that is pretty much better than anything that can be crafted, that's when I'll have problems.

EDIT: Also, those comparing this game to WoW and XIV saying its an MMO is looking at it wrong. I don't think ESO is trying to that route. I think they're going for a GW2 approach, but a bit different. I expect DLC that has new content every 3 months or so after console launch, costing ~$15 - maybe a bit more. That's how Zenimax will be expecting to earn money. Not by keeping the subscriptions to ESO Plus by putting out a gear treadmill.

Rook_Master · May 2015

docstrawb wrote: »

Earelith wrote: »

You play it with the wow mentality..no one told you to go and grind for CP..endgame of ESO is a long term goal/advancement that you earn while playing the game in a way that is fun...you do dungeons, you play alts, pvp and while doing all these, piece by piece you build a long term advancement..

The CP system is not there for you to finish it in a long grind. If you chose to do it that way, don't complain. For me this is the system I like..a long term advancement that I will slowly earn while playing the game in the way I want too.

One day I may do cyrodil dailies, next day dungeons, other day I do some pvp, then I play an alt.. all these slowly gives me CP..if you chose to go into a cave and grind for it, thats your problem.

Please take note of this, @DDuke . This is the attitude of the standard ESO player. Someone who DOES enjoy the game. Who DOESN'T have the WOW mentality he mentioned. Who enjoys playing the game for what it is. Different. That is the ultimate point. You have a million options for what you want. We do not. This is our game. We want to keep it as it is.

He'd rather just do ad hominem attacks about how you're not at end-game.

He also can't wait to jump back on the gear treadmill.

docstrawb · May 2015

Rook_Master wrote: »

He also can't wait to jump back on the gear treadmill.

Gotta get them views.

idk · May 2015

Rook_Master wrote: »

Honestly there are so many problems with gear and itemization in this game, that considering adding seasonal gear and such before fixing what we already have is ridiculous.

Quest rewards are such garbage it's laughable. Every single quest is green vendor garbage. Even the rewards for long quest arcs like Cadwells is complete trash.

Also, the 1.6 patch completely turned game balance on its head without much consideration for the bonuses on gear. What this leads to is only a handful of gearsets being best-in-slot for any given build. Leaving a large number of completely useless sets like the ones for hybrids and so on.

Also, the fact that V14 gear only drops from specific locations which aren't consistent, such as V14 gear dropping in solo chests in Cyrodiil, but not in Trials, and you have that imbalance added to the mix.

A little pinch of crazy RNG from Undaunted Shoulders of Master Weapons, and you have the current gear system in ESO.

What is considered BiS in most games is fairly limited with much choice outside of that which some players choose for whatever personal reason. I think the changes they made and that most of the BiS gear for magika builds is easily obtainable/crafted is good.

DDuke · May 2015

docstrawb wrote: »

-snip-

Another wall of text, splendid.

So, to summarize: you believe everyone makes youtube videos only to make money (them being in support of the game and art purposes is probably a nonsensical thought for you), and you go on great lengths describing how MMOs should turn into action online RPGs, and how it is the key to a great success & perfect in every way (disregarding that the game had terrible reviews & went B2P).

Sorry, but I still don't think you have any idea what you're talking about.

You're just spewing opinions as facts & distorting reality to suit your wants and needs.

Here's the reality again, in case you missed it:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/172291/gear-wise-was-craglorn-enough
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/165801/no-incentive-to-do-end-game-pve
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/156800/most-of-the-end-game-guilds-are-dying-out-now/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/140249/end-game-rewards-where-are-they
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/114489/why-very-few-people-are-doing-dungeons-and-end-game
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/133691/no-end-game-no-mmo/p1

No one is here to ruin "your MMO", but to remind you that it isn't "your" MMO alone.

If it was your MMO (feel free to start your own one), I wager it would do quite poorly with your marketing.

"Hey everyone who liked WoW, *** off it's my MMO, only me and the three other people should play this!"

Oh, and please use some space in your rants.. I think I got eye strain from reading that (might have been the content that caused it though).

Rook_Master wrote: »

He also can't wait to jump back on the gear treadmill.

That's right.

Good thing it was promised last summer in form of seasonal gear (yeah, been waiting a while for that, ZOS).

DDuke · May 2015

Earelith wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Yes, and this progression ends at "level 64" after which you're forced to grind goblins in a small cave for stat increases, because that is so much better than big, epic raids & loot *rolls eyes*

You play it with the wow mentality..no one told you to go and grind for CP..endgame of ESO is a long term goal/advancement that you earn while playing the game in a way that is fun...you do dungeons, you play alts, pvp and while doing all these, piece by piece you build a long term advancement..

The CP system is not there for you to finish it in a long grind. If you chose to do it that way, don't complain. For me this is the system I like..a long term advancement that I will slowly earn while playing the game in the way I want too.

One day I may do cyrodil dailies, next day dungeons, other day I do some pvp, then I play an alt.. all these slowly gives me CP..if you chose to go into a cave and grind for it, thats your problem.

The key point here is that when I log in there isn't something that I MUST do..there are many different activities I am free to chose to do that all contribute into the same goal..my account advancement.

So in other words... you're free AP in PvP, and someone I shouldn't group with in PvE?

I think you made it quite clear you aren't a competitive player, but thank you for your take on this.

docstrawb · May 2015

DDuke wrote: »

docstrawb wrote: »

-snip-

Another wall of text, splendid.

Yessir. Because I am not a ***, and a wall of text is stronger than a weak arguement. But keep trying. You'll nail me soon, I just know it.

DDuke wrote: »

So, to summarize: you believe everyone makes youtube videos only to make money (them being in support of the game is probably a nonsensical thought for you), and you go on great lengths describing how MMOs should turn into action online RPGs, and how it is the key to a great success & perfect in every way (disregarding that the game had terrible reviews & went B2P).

I don't believe that, no. You said you were just here until a new AAA MMO releases. That combined with your love of WOW, yet lack of playing said WOW game and constant bashing of this game as it is, it isn't too hard to figure out. Also, If you would actually read what was said, and not just try to twist it to your, at this point, very shaky arguement, I said that this system was already an established successful RPG system, as you claimed it wasn't. YOU brought up RPGs. YOU brought up that they all used gear progression. That gear progression was the only thing that worked(which is obviously untrue. It has only worked once, in one game, who's success has nothing to do with their gear system.) I proved you wrong. Never claimed that they were MMO. Sorry, guy. Again, keep trying. You'll nail me. You have probability on your side.

DDuke wrote: »

Here's the reality again, in case you missed it:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/172291/gear-wise-was-craglorn-enough
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/165801/no-incentive-to-do-end-game-pve
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/156800/most-of-the-end-game-guilds-are-dying-out-now/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/140249/end-game-rewards-where-are-they
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/114489/why-very-few-people-are-doing-dungeons-and-end-game
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/133691/no-end-game-no-mmo/p1

Here we go again. We all agree that 6 other ppl agree with you. It has been established. (Quick, go dig up more to prove your vast numbers!!! lol)

DDuke wrote: »

Oh, and please use some space in your rants.. I think I got eye strain from reading that (might have been the content that caused it though).

See above for answer.

DDuke wrote: »

Good thing it was promised last summer in form of seasonal gear (yeah, been waiting a while for that, ZOS).

[/quote]

Seasonal gear doesn't mean gear progression. You'll figure that out. Too bad I won't see the disappointment in them baby blues when it sets in. That would be worth money in the crown store to me at this point.

Tors · May 2015

Ignoreing the "what may happen when they remove VR levels"

The reason I play this game, with all its faults and weird set bonuses is that it is NOT like the others. it is more like the games that I played that originally addicted me to the genre.

There is a freedom to the game that allows a more social enviroment to exist.

Yeah you need to be a certain level to be top of your game, but the journey there allows you to play however you want. And when you are at max level, its player actions and interactions that make the difference rather than gear.

Tors · May 2015

DDuke wrote: »

I think you made it quite clear you aren't a competitive player, but thank you for your take on this.

This game is 99% made up of the people whose take you dont think counts.

Im suprised that @Earelith even posted on this forum, there is such a tiny minority of players who post/read here, the majority of the ones who do are the mini/maxers and those who go a little bit deeper into the mechanics of a game. Which makes most of the conversation on these forums totally unrepresentive of the average ESO game player.

AhPook_Is_Here · May 2015

Just roll dodge it.

docstrawb · May 2015

Tors wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I think you made it quite clear you aren't a competitive player, but thank you for your take on this.

This game is 99% made up of the people whose take you dont think counts.

Im suprised that @Earelith even posted on this forum, there is such a tiny minority of players who post/read here, the majority of the ones who do are the mini/maxers and those who go a little bit deeper into the mechanics of a game. Which makes most of the conversation on these forums totally unrepresentive of the average ESO game player.

Word, I never thought of that. No wonder I've had such a deep, thoughtful response from Mr. DDuke.

Tors · May 2015

docstrawb wrote: »

Word, I never thought of that. No wonder I've had such a deep, thoughtful response from Mr. DDuke.

@docstrawb actually it seems @DDuke put a lot of thourght into his replys. I dont agree with much of it, but I cant knock him for his views. I understand them totally.

However, everything here is just noise, the devs wont make decisions based on whats written by die hards like us, the game is , for all intents and purposes, FTP so they need to keep the people who pay happy. And thats generally not the people who post here.

I brought a mount, I admit, but Im guessing that Zenemaxs' income from myself or most mini-maxers of the like involved in this conversation wont be from vanity items or pets. We are not the ones keeping the game afloat, the average player is. And the average player has far better things to do than log onto a forum

idk · May 2015

docstrawb wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

docstrawb wrote: »

-snip-

Another wall of text, splendid.

Yessir. Because I am not a ***, and a wall of text is stronger than a weak arguement. But keep trying. You'll nail me soon, I just know it.

DDuke wrote: »

So, to summarize: you believe everyone makes youtube videos only to make money (them being in support of the game is probably a nonsensical thought for you), and you go on great lengths describing how MMOs should turn into action online RPGs, and how it is the key to a great success & perfect in every way (disregarding that the game had terrible reviews & went B2P).

I don't believe that, no. You said you were just here until a new AAA MMO releases. That combined with your love of WOW, yet lack of playing said WOW game and constant bashing of this game as it is, it isn't too hard to figure out. Also, If you would actually read what was said, and not just try to twist it to your, at this point, very shaky arguement, I said that this system was already an established successful RPG system, as you claimed it wasn't. YOU brought up RPGs. YOU brought up that they all used gear progression. That gear progression was the only thing that worked(which is obviously untrue. It has only worked once, in one game, who's success has nothing to do with their gear system.) I proved you wrong. Never claimed that they were MMO. Sorry, guy. Again, keep trying. You'll nail me. You have probability on your side.

DDuke wrote: »

Here's the reality again, in case you missed it:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/172291/gear-wise-was-craglorn-enough
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/165801/no-incentive-to-do-end-game-pve
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/156800/most-of-the-end-game-guilds-are-dying-out-now/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/140249/end-game-rewards-where-are-they
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/114489/why-very-few-people-are-doing-dungeons-and-end-game
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/133691/no-end-game-no-mmo/p1

Here we go again. We all agree that 6 other ppl agree with you. It has been established. (Quick, go dig up more to prove your vast numbers!!! lol)

DDuke wrote: »

Oh, and please use some space in your rants.. I think I got eye strain from reading that (might have been the content that caused it though).

See above for answer.

DDuke wrote: »

Good thing it was promised last summer in form of seasonal gear (yeah, been waiting a while for that, ZOS).

Seasonal gear doesn't mean gear progression. You'll figure that out. Too bad I won't see the disappointment in them baby blues when it sets in. That would be worth money in the crown store to me at this point.

[/quote]

Actually, walls of words are usually not as good as a strong argument. They usually have much fluff before they finally get to the point and therefore lose the attention of the reader. Myself, I often don't waste time with the scenic route.

DDuke · May 2015

docstrawb wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

docstrawb wrote: »

-snip-

Another wall of text, splendid.

Yessir. Because I am not a ***, and a wall of text is stronger than a weak arguement. But keep trying. You'll nail me soon, I just know it.

So you attribute the poor way of representing your thoughts to "not being a ***". Very classy.

docstrawb wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

So, to summarize: you believe everyone makes youtube videos only to make money (them being in support of the game is probably a nonsensical thought for you), and you go on great lengths describing how MMOs should turn into action online RPGs, and how it is the key to a great success & perfect in every way (disregarding that the game had terrible reviews & went B2P).

I don't believe that, no. You said you were just here until a new AAA MMO releases. That combined with your love of WOW, yet lack of playing said WOW game and constant bashing of this game as it is, it isn't too hard to figure out.

So you're really dying of curiosity to know why I'm not playing WoW? I feel this is very much off topic, but here you go:

Last time I played WoW was 7 years ago, after which the game has become increasingly dumbed down: raids & gear more accessible to people, easier content etc (and they've lost subscriptions because of it, what a surprise...)
Being a competitive player, I will never catch up skill-wise to people who have been playing the game 7 years longer.
The game is old, and I prefer the more skill based combat in modern MMOs.

With that out of the way, let's get into your other "arguments", shall we?

docstrawb wrote: »

Also, If you would actually read what was said, and not just try to twist it to your, at this point, very shaky arguement, I said that this system was already an established successful RPG system, as you claimed it wasn't. YOU brought up RPGs. YOU brought up that they all used gear progression. That gear progression was the only thing that worked(which is obviously untrue. It has only worked once, in one game, who's success has nothing to do with their gear system.) I proved you wrong. Never claimed that they were MMO. Sorry, guy. Again, keep trying. You'll nail me. You have probability on your side.

Gear progression is in every RPG worth mentioning.
The difference between a normal RPG & MMO is that normal RPGs stop getting patches & updates, they stop being developed.

You beat the bosses during the main story, you collect powerful weapons & artifacts to make your character stronger, and one day you're done with the game. Then you move on to the next single player game.

Let me repeat in case you didn't understand it the last time: this is not how MMOs work. You don't want people to quit your MMO after they're done with the 100-200 hours of questing, you want to hook them in by offering more ways of improving your character and gear is a natural, sensical way of doing so.

What you're saying (not having any "carrot on a stick") only makes people to stop playing after they finish the game, that's the sad truth.

You and other people can threaten all you want of "quitting" if other people get reasons to play the game, you would do so anyhow after finishing the game, since you'd be in the same situation as the rest of us.
So please, finish leveling so you can experience the awesome "end game" you have in your mind firsthand, instead of making ignorant statements.

docstrawb wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Here's the reality again, in case you missed it:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/172291/gear-wise-was-craglorn-enough
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/165801/no-incentive-to-do-end-game-pve
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/156800/most-of-the-end-game-guilds-are-dying-out-now/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/140249/end-game-rewards-where-are-they
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/114489/why-very-few-people-are-doing-dungeons-and-end-game
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/133691/no-end-game-no-mmo/p1

Here we go again. We all agree that 6 other ppl agree with you. It has been established. (Quick, go dig up more to prove your vast numbers!!! lol)

As requested:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/166183/lack-of-endgame-content/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/165760/endgame-endgame-endgame/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/149926/elite-gear-hit-with-the-massive-nerf-hammer-in-1-6-nobody-does-trials-anymore-pics/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/131880/gear-chasing-my-opinion-on-what-keeps-my-attention-in-an-mmo/p1

I could go on...

The fact is, many, many people are not happy with the itemization in this game.

Feel free to make a poll.

docstrawb wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Good thing it was promised last summer in form of seasonal gear (yeah, been waiting a while for that, ZOS).

Seasonal gear doesn't mean gear progression. You'll figure that out. Too bad I won't see the disappointment in them baby blues when it sets in. That would be worth money in the crown store to me at this point.

Again, just goes out to prove out how little you know. Seriously, you could atleast research topics before commenting on them.

Even your "favourite game" WoW has seasonal gear (e..g. Arena gear, the newest Arena gear being hard to acquire, making the previous "season" gear easier to acquire).

For ESO, it was explained last summer:

In the Champion system, we will have more gear introduced by seasons where there is no level requirement. They will be harder to get. Season 8 gear will be more powerful than season 7 gear for example but the season 7 gear will be more readily available. There will be a solution for crafting as well.

This is still gear progression, only that lower tiers of gear become more accessible when new tier is released.

Robbmrp · May 2015

Since ESO is a MMO based game Gear SHOULD NEVER level with your character. If your gear is level 75, it stays level 75 when you hit level 76 and so forth. New dungeon drops SHOULD scale to the player level at the time of drop though.

DDuke · May 2015

Tors wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I think you made it quite clear you aren't a competitive player, but thank you for your take on this.

This game is 99% made up of the people whose take you dont think counts.

Im suprised that @Earelith even posted on this forum, there is such a tiny minority of players who post/read here, the majority of the ones who do are the mini/maxers and those who go a little bit deeper into the mechanics of a game. Which makes most of the conversation on these forums totally unrepresentive of the average ESO game player.

Oh, I don't doubt that for a second, but this is a much bigger topic, not only concerning gear progression. I posted my thoughts on this in another thread a while ago:

Seriously, the people coming up with "oh, you must have rushed to the end game hur hur dur" and "the game is for us, casual players, so get out", just... stop please.

How is the game going to get any better for you if people stop playing it? As a result not only will the servers be empty, but you'll be getting less & less new "casual content" or bug fixes as well.

Has it occurred to you people that this game might've failed (gone B2P), because it didn't manage to keep the more hardcore audience playing?

You need both:
Casual masses to finance the game with their subscriptions/purchases
Hardcore players to create hype & excitement for the game, find the bugs & push the boundaries of both PvE and PvP.

What would this game be, without people talking about it, creating videos & streaming the game? I'll tell you what: it'd be shut down.

You need a vibrant community of people in MMOs, one that isn't solely made up of people who log in twice a week to do a quest.

There are plenty of MMOs that manage to hold both kinds of players. These are the successful MMOs.

Then there are MMOs that fail to create enough content (intentionally, or unintentionally) for anyone who plays more than a couple hours a week. These are the B grade MMOs.

I know which option is better for ZOS from both game quality and financial standpoint, in fact, it should be blatantly obvious to most people.

After this thread, I could add to that the fact, that the more casual players don't easily quit over things like not having the best gear available right away.

These players are in it for the social interaction & leveling experience, not to play PvE competitively and wreck people in Cyrodiil. They rarely run out of things to do, which is why content having repetitive value (e.g. gear progression) is of trivial interest to them.

On the other hand, the more hardcore audience does quit if they have no fun incentives to play the game.

Tors · May 2015

@DDuke I totally agree with your last post.

I think the big issue we are facing is the lack of anything new content wise for a while. Dont get me wrong, there has been massive changes over the last few months, but mainly these are to do with the mechanics of the game. People are waiting for new zones, sets and pvp encounters.

Also the lack of anything concrete on the VR removal is fueling confusion amoungst some of the player base. If we knew what was going to happen we could mostly deal with it and move on

docstrawb · May 2015

DDuke wrote: »

So you attribute the poor way of representing your thought to "not being a ***". Very classy.

It isn't my fault [snip] is filtered. What did you think I wrote? It is a good description. A pointless bash to reinforce your arguement seems to be your thing.

DDuke wrote: »

Gear progression is in every RPG worth mentioning.

*in your opinion

DDuke wrote: »

The difference between a normal RPG & MMO is that normal RPGs stop getting patches & updates, they stop being developed.

Except for the ones I have mentioned. Ones that get regular patches, updates and seasonal gear, as I will mention below.

DDuke wrote: »

Let me repeat in case you didn't understand it the last time: this is not how MMOs work. You don't want people to quit your MMO after they're done with the 100-200 hours of questing, you want to hook them in by offering more ways of improving your character and gear is a natural, sensical way of doing so.

What you're saying (not having any "carrot on a stick") only makes people to stop playing after they finish the game, that's the sad truth.

Ok, I am close to done with this, but honestly. This is not how MMOs work. It is how they have been coming out for years. It is what has driven people to beg for something different. This gear progression is widely hated, albiet not by everyone. But by a lot to say the least. To them, a game like this is exactly what they want.

EDIT: The pull is from actual fun content that rewards you like an adult rather than a lab rat. You keep denying the success of this current system with nothing to back it up. This sytem works. It hasn't yet in an MMO, because this is the first. But it has been widely successful in RPGs that way outlive their shelflife due to the system. Rather than repeating raids over and over, and only if you have a group, the drive comes from farming/crafting/even buying sets and trying them with different build combinations. It is a tried and true system that works perfectly in an MMO, not your definition of an MMO, which clearly must always be the same. There are plenty of players who love it.

DDuke wrote: »

The fact is, many, many people are not happy with the itemization in this game.

Feel free to make a poll.

Many are happy with it, too. To get an exact number would take a lot of effort. But based on the responses of this thread, you seem to be the minority today.

DDuke wrote: »

Again, just goes out to prove out how little you know. Seriously, you could atleast research topics before commenting on them.

Even your "favourite game" WoW has seasonal gear (e..g. Arena gear, the newest Arena gear being hard to acquire, making the previous "season" gear easier to acquire).

For ESO, it was explained last summer:

In the Champion system, we will have more gear introduced by seasons where there is no level requirement. They will be harder to get. Season 8 gear will be more powerful than season 7 gear for example but the season 7 gear will be more readily available. There will be a solution for crafting as well.

This is still gear progression, only that lower tiers of gear become more accessible when new tier is released.

I can secede on this. It is disappointing to say the least. I assumed it would be based on those RPGs you dismiss so quickly. The ones this games system is based on, which have new drops added in a patch to farm or craft. It made perfect sense to me for them to implement it that way, as opposed to making a run of the mill, same old story gear grind. To see it put like that by a dev kind of confirms the fear that caused this thread. I just hope it doesn't snowball to WOW status. Love it all you want. But it is atrocious, with the gear progression leading to exclusivity, which lead to complaining, which lead to casualization. Then it will just become another failed MMO, trying to relight an old flame. Sad, really.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Inappropriate Content and Language]