The new fear, Gear progression.

docstrawb · May 2015

I just participated in a thread that lead to the possibility of ESO going to a WOW/every other MMO style gear progression system. Ilvls and lockouts and all of the other reasons us diehard eso fans dont play other MMOS. It is all hearsay. Nothing to back it up. But it was mentioned by a poster as a possibility. I am making this thread as a precautionary measure. Please speak up if you know how bad of an idea this would be, so that the devs know before they even think about it. I for one would instantly quit, and I know droves of others who would as well. If a dev reads this, please do not go this route. It is the main, defining difference that makes ESO so great. Hopefully comments in this thread will back that opinion up. Pls comment.

docstrawb · May 2015

"Rook_Master wrote:

Now, to address your points; I really don't see how it matters that Veteran Rank removal is the last in a series of phases. How can they force something to replace the progression of V1-V14 if you have access to all the content at that point. How will they enforce gear-based progression if you can do all the dungeons, trials and PvP at level 50? That doesn't really make sense to me. I still don't see why they need to enforce the current system of V1-V14 grinding.

docstrawb wrote:

What he is saying is they will switch to gear progression, which I hope isn't true, or I am done. It is what sets eso apart. Basically, There would be gear levels. You could stroll into a top tier raid, because you're lvl 50. But you will get owned, because you don't have the "ilvl" from the previous raids gear that the raid is tuned to. The next step would be to lock you out based on your average ilvl, meaning you couldn't stroll in until you ran the last raid, over and over, to get that gear, but first you run the raid before that, etc. It is a horrible system that every MMO outside of eso uses, which is why I play eso. Let us all pray this is not true.

Rook_Master wrote:

Ewww, that's really gross. I wouldn't touch that sort of system with a 10 foot pole.

I really hope that is not what happens."

The basic discussion in the aforementioned thread.

dodgehopper_ESO · May 2015

I agree that gear grind is just boring, and I have done it before. The content should be about what is fun or not fun. Usually, what ends up happening is if you skip a game for a year, you can just come back and skip all kinds of boring content you didn't want to play anyway, and pick up the new gear you need anyway. Gear grind is a stupid thing. I much prefer skill/character development.

timidobserver · May 2015

Seasonal gear was already announced, but there has been no official word of lockouts or level cap increases.

docstrawb · May 2015

timidobserver wrote: »

Seasonal gear was already announced, but there has been no official word of lockouts or level cap increases.

That all naturally comes with the territory.

docstrawb · May 2015

timidobserver wrote: »

Seasonal gear was already announced.

Also, Seasonal gear sounds fine, given it is how I took it. New sets being released into the world for you to go find and craft to create new builds and keep things fresh. The ugly side, the side I am talking about, is ilvls, progression caps, raid progression, etc. That is a whole diff scenario that I hope never happens.

Rook_Master · May 2015

Yeah, I really hadn't even considered gear progression up until that point in the other thread, because it just seems so ludicrous.

I never even played WoW, but that kind of treadmill is not what I'm looking for at all.

WebBull · May 2015

We have gear progression now........nerf magicka builds and everyone switches to stamina sets. Next will be nerf stamina to whatever and dead sets will come alive.

Xjcon · May 2015

If you can just buy the bis gear why even play the game? Having gear progression is what keeps people playing.

Imo the perfect game has a progression from crafted gear clear up to bis which is obtained from playing the harder content.

Rook_Master · May 2015

Honestly there are so many problems with gear and itemization in this game, that considering adding seasonal gear and such before fixing what we already have is ridiculous.

Quest rewards are such garbage it's laughable. Every single quest is green vendor garbage. Even the rewards for long quest arcs like Cadwells is complete trash.

Also, the 1.6 patch completely turned game balance on its head without much consideration for the bonuses on gear. What this leads to is only a handful of gearsets being best-in-slot for any given build. Leaving a large number of completely useless sets like the ones for hybrids and so on.

Also, the fact that V14 gear only drops from specific locations which aren't consistent, such as V14 gear dropping in solo chests in Cyrodiil, but not in Trials, and you have that imbalance added to the mix.

A little pinch of crazy RNG from Undaunted Shoulders of Master Weapons, and you have the current gear system in ESO.

docstrawb · May 2015

Xjcon wrote: »

If you can just buy the bis gear why even play the game? Having gear progression is what keeps people playing.

Imo the perfect game has a progression from crafted gear clear up to bis which is obtained from playing the harder content.

That isn't so. This game from the start has been more of a Diablo 2 style system, build freedom and set farming to enhance builds, or base builds around. It is a different, but to most, more desirable system that is new to an MMO. If gear progression becomes the new system, then guess what? We all might as well play WOW or FF14, the list goes on. The droves of cookie cutters. The ones that all fail, aside from wow. Why change this to match them? They already exist, all over the place.

docstrawb · May 2015

WebBull wrote: »

We have gear progression now........nerf magicka builds and everyone switches to stamina sets. Next will be nerf stamina to whatever and dead sets will come alive.

This isn't gear progression. What is being discussed is different. Raiding to get gear to raid. No raid group? Sorry, stay in mediocre gear. I'm sure LFR is coming soon. Then you'll at least have a weaker recolor. Full raid group? Cool. Have fun with your one drop allowance a week. Want to see the new content? You haven't been busy enough. Go back and run the last raid until you get enough gear, then we'll talk. This system lets you farm, buy and craft new sets, play with builds, or if you want, look up the min max version on YouTube(:/). But you have freedom. The drive comes from that freedom.

DDuke · May 2015

"I don't like progressive raiding/content, so no one should get it!"

There are some serious flaws in your argument.

First of all, gear progression does not mean "raid or gtfo". Gear can very well come from doing PvP as well (e.g. PvP gear in WoW and other MMOs).

Secondly, you seem to be under the weird impression that there is "freedom" regarding what gear you should wear. False. You even mentioned it yourself.

look up the min max version on Youtube(:/)

You are of course free to play with any build you want, but unless you're using the optimal setup, you're going to end up as free AP in PvP & someone I wouldn't want to group with in PvE.

The only difference is that in games with gear progression, you actually have to beat difficult bosses or fare well in PvP arenas for that "min-max gear", you don't just craft/buy it in 5 minutes and be done with the game.

Lastly, do you know why most MMOs (RPGs, even) have gear progression?

Because it works, it keeps people playing & enjoying the game.

How did no gear progression work for this game?

This game isn't exactly a huge success story, in case you hadn't noticed.

Mivryna · May 2015

Gear progression can simply be with regards to the power of that gear. Sure, you can attempt the end-game trial, but unless you've got the skills of Bruce Lee with +5 Unobtainium Nunchucks of Power, you'll probably fail.

docstrawb · May 2015

DDuke wrote: »

"I don't like progressive raiding/content, so no one should get it!"

There are some serious flaws in your argument.

First of all, gear progression does not mean "raid or gtfo". Gear can very well come from doing PvP as well (e.g. PvP gear in WoW and other MMOs).

Secondly, you seem to be under the weird impression that there is "freedom" regarding what gear you should wear. False. You even mentioned it yourself.

look up the min max version on Youtube(:/)

You are of course free to play with any build you want, but unless you're using the optimal setup, you're going to end up as free AP in PvP & someone I wouldn't want to group with in PvE.

The only difference is that in games with gear progression, you actually have to beat difficult bosses or fare well in PvP arenas for that "min-max gear", you don't just craft/buy it in 5 minutes and be done with the game.

Lastly, do you know why most MMOs (RPGs, even) have gear progression?

Because it works, it keeps people playing & enjoying the game.

How did no gear progression work for this game?

This game isn't exactly a huge success story, in case you hadn't noticed.

If you don't think gear progression doesn't mean raid or GTFO, you either never played WOW or the like, or you were one of the elitist "no fun allowed" types that ruins those beloved cookie cutter gear progression games. The fact is, this game never was what WOW was, and was touted as not being so. Bugs and a bad rep from the get go held this game from success, IMO. That is just my opinion, but it is a sound one. It was never the system. That was one of the selling points. You still have to beat difficult bosses in this game, and fare well in PVP, But guess what, they don't try and make you feel a psychological urge to with a carrot on a stick. They treat you like an adult. They create the drive to play through....actual fun. I, for one, don't want a game that feels like work. If that is what you want, why aren't you playing WOW. You seem to love that system, and dislike this one. Why are you here? Lastly. gear progression doesn't "work". Every MMO that tries it, ie: all of them, fail with the acception of WOW. But WOWs success doesn't have simply to do with that system. It has to do with being at the right place, at the right time, at one time showing outstanding support, and players growing a deep connection and long term investment they can't break, honestly. So, please, If you want that game, it is there. Explain to me why you think this game should just become a carbon copy, seriously.

mtwiggz · May 2015

"Leveling" through gear is one of the worst ideas game designers/developers have had in recent history. It completely sets players even further apart. Especially with the ridiculous RNG systems coupled with the gear you need to gain levels.

You could play hundreds of hours of the same content over and over again to not get the gear you need. Which then means you may not be able to progress to more difficult content because you do not have the gear required.

The most recent game I played with a system like this was "Destiny". Which used this system as a blatant game extending mechanic. Playing one raid (now two or three) as many times a week as you wanted - to only actually get a drop once a week. Some players were lucky enough to get all set pieces needed in one run. Some, by the time I quit, played for months without getting more than one or two pieces. This not only frustrated players, but saw many players quit due to this.

I can not say for sure if I would stay or go if a system like this was implemented. Although I will say I left "Destiny" due to a system similar to what is mentioned by the OP. Grinding for gear interests me as little as grinding my own hands into stumps.

Dionysusjones · May 2015

I wish if ZOS is inevitably going to *** this game with an elephant *** and make it WoW *** just like everything else they would just go ahead and do it before console release and save me some money

DDuke · May 2015

docstrawb wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

"I don't like progressive raiding/content, so no one should get it!"

There are some serious flaws in your argument.

First of all, gear progression does not mean "raid or gtfo". Gear can very well come from doing PvP as well (e.g. PvP gear in WoW and other MMOs).

Secondly, you seem to be under the weird impression that there is "freedom" regarding what gear you should wear. False. You even mentioned it yourself.

look up the min max version on Youtube(:/)

You are of course free to play with any build you want, but unless you're using the optimal setup, you're going to end up as free AP in PvP & someone I wouldn't want to group with in PvE.

The only difference is that in games with gear progression, you actually have to beat difficult bosses or fare well in PvP arenas for that "min-max gear", you don't just craft/buy it in 5 minutes and be done with the game.

Lastly, do you know why most MMOs (RPGs, even) have gear progression?

Because it works, it keeps people playing & enjoying the game.

How did no gear progression work for this game?

This game isn't exactly a huge success story, in case you hadn't noticed.

If you don't think gear progression doesn't mean raid or GTFO, you either never played WOW or the like, or you were one of the elitist "no fun allowed" types that ruins those beloved cookie cutter gear progression games. The fact is, this game never was what WOW was, and was touted as not being so. Bugs and a bad rep from the get go held this game from success, IMO. That is just my opinion, but it is a sound one. It was never the system. That was one of the selling points. You still have to beat difficult bosses in this game, and fare well in PVP, But guess what, they don't try and make you feel a psychological urge to with a carrot on a stick. They treat you like an adult. They create the drive to play through....actual fun. I, for one, don't want a game that feels like work. If that is what you want, why aren't you playing WOW. You seem to love that system, and dislike this one. Why are you here? Lastly. gear progression doesn't "work". Every MMO that tries it, ie: all of them, fail with the acception of WOW. But WOWs success doesn't have simply to do with that system. It has to do with being at the right place, at the right time, at one time showing outstanding support, and players growing a deep connection and long term investment they can't break, honestly. So, please, If you want that game, it is there. Explain to me why you think this game should just become a carbon copy, seriously.

Here's a fun fact for you: about 50% of people I knew dropped the game last summer, because of disappointing end game.

Not because of bugs, not because of broken class mechanics, not because of lag, but because the end game was basicly just two ridiculously easy, 10 minute long glorified group dungeons that had zero incentive for running them.

Of course, my view is just a narrow one of a single person, but what I can tell you for certain is that you do not keep the hardcore audience playing without giving them incentives to do so, and this hardcore audience is the audience that makes the youtube videos & twitch streams, find bugs & keeps pushing the boundaries of PvE and PvP.
The audience which makes the game what it is and keeps it visible to gamers around the world.

Marketing that no money can buy, and without which no MMO can succeed, or even survive in most cases.

Players have been playing to beat big difficult bosses since the very onset of (MMO)RPG gaming. It is natural to expect these difficult bosses to be drop epic loot (just like in every RPG, ever). In MMOs, your character isn't there just to level up to max. level and then... just hang out with no purpose or goals.

Just out of curiosity, are you VR14 yet? Because the argument that no gameplay incentives are required, and that game being "fun" is enough are often presented by players, who are not even playing the end game yet.

It stems from the somewhat hysterical hatred that WoW gets from some people, which they automatically latch on to every other MMO they see out there.

"WoW has it, so it must be the pinnacle of evil and I must hate it"

Here's another fun fact for you: gear progression existed long, long before WoW, and it exists because it works and makes sense in a RPG. Developers are not idiots, they don't put things in because "WoW has it", they put things in because they believe they create a better gameplay experience.

Heck, even FPS games have started to incorporate RPG elements such as gear progression (Destiny).

So let's stop with all this WoW hate and start looking things objectively, shall we? Just because you can kill monsters or cast magic doesn't make anything a "WoW copy", nor does it make WoW a copy of anything. It makes a game RPG, and same applies to gear progression.

To conclude this, I'd like to ask you a question: how does having character progression via gear at end game hurt you in any way, if that gear is obtainable just by doing what you enjoy doing? If powerful gear was accessible via both PvE & PvP based on player merits (like in all modern MMOs), how would that be detrimental to your (or anyone else's) gameplay?

Just out of curiosity, of course

P.S. This game already feels like work, but one that I don't enjoy. Haven't you opened up Champion System yet?

Cry_Wolfe · May 2015

because what the world needs, is more cookie cutter.
smh

asteldian · May 2015

Some form of gear progression is needed, having BiS from a mix of 4 man, crafted, 12 man and PvP is fine, but curently trials hear is worthless and DSA is limited, as a result significant content is wasted. Sure you can do it for the fun of it, but without decent loot the thrill of maybe getting an upgrade is not there which means once you do the content a few times for fun it is pointless, and wwith the rate new content comes that is a bad thing.

leshpar · May 2015

I stopped playing WoW for a multitude of reasons. One of which was that any sense of end game gear progression could only happen in the best of the best guilds that I was never good enough for (because I actually have a job and pay bills I could not invest the time commitment required to such guilds).

I do like the idea of trials, and as long as crafting is kept up to date and you can craft comperable sets to what's available in high end content, then I wouldn't have any issues with it. As long as you CAN progress without "raiding" 7 days a week.

But, if the only progression path is through veteran trials in the future, I would lose interest fast.

schroed360 · May 2015

Agree with OP. Gear treadmill is not my thing either and I like what we have until now.

Faulgor · May 2015

You mean, there will be gear that is actually worth getting by playing endgame content? The horror! /s

The 2 current major problems with endgame gear for me are 1), it's almost too easy to get and 2), I can't equip it with my alts because I'd have to grind them to VR14. Any decent MMO I knew did it the other way around, i.e., you hit max level with mediocre gear and then search for the gear you want.
In ESO, by the time I was VR14 with my main, I was able to craft him the legendary gear he needed, probably since level 45. So progression stopped right then and there. And that's why people left, as DDuke said. The ridiculous hurdle of veteran ranks, and the lack of rewards for jumping that hurdle and playing endgame content.

Earelith · May 2015

mtwiggz wrote: »

"Leveling" through gear is one of the worst ideas game designers/developers have had in recent history. It completely sets players even further apart. Especially with the ridiculous RNG systems coupled with the gear you need to gain levels.

You could play hundreds of hours of the same content over and over again to not get the gear you need. Which then means you may not be able to progress to more difficult content because you do not have the gear required.

The most recent game I played with a system like this was "Destiny". Which used this system as a blatant game extending mechanic. Playing one raid (now two or three) as many times a week as you wanted - to only actually get a drop once a week. Some players were lucky enough to get all set pieces needed in one run. Some, by the time I quit, played for months without getting more than one or two pieces. This not only frustrated players, but saw many players quit due to this.

I can not say for sure if I would stay or go if a system like this was implemented. Although I will say I left "Destiny" due to a system similar to what is mentioned by the OP. Grinding for gear interests me as little as grinding my own hands into stumps.

I am in the exact same position..leveling in Destiny was super fun..i stpped playing once the gear grind came into play..They should have much more planets and much bigger leveling..

I will quit eso immediately if they add gear progression..they can add new zones and many otherfeatures to enhance the virtual world..make the world better with lot of replayability. And have some very long term goals that will reward prestige and glamour..like GW2 legendaries for example..

Add housing and professions to support housing...maybe add farming also. In genera. you can enhance the virtual world instead of add gear progression..

I played wow for years in vanilla and tbc but not because of gear progression.i didnt raid.. I just loved its virtual world and their classes..i rolled classes and leveling them..when i had al classes i stopped playing

Earelith · May 2015

DDuke wrote: »

docstrawb wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

"I don't like progressive raiding/content, so no one should get it!"

There are some serious flaws in your argument.

First of all, gear progression does not mean "raid or gtfo". Gear can very well come from doing PvP as well (e.g. PvP gear in WoW and other MMOs).

Secondly, you seem to be under the weird impression that there is "freedom" regarding what gear you should wear. False. You even mentioned it yourself.

look up the min max version on Youtube(:/)

You are of course free to play with any build you want, but unless you're using the optimal setup, you're going to end up as free AP in PvP & someone I wouldn't want to group with in PvE.

The only difference is that in games with gear progression, you actually have to beat difficult bosses or fare well in PvP arenas for that "min-max gear", you don't just craft/buy it in 5 minutes and be done with the game.

Lastly, do you know why most MMOs (RPGs, even) have gear progression?

Because it works, it keeps people playing & enjoying the game.

How did no gear progression work for this game?

This game isn't exactly a huge success story, in case you hadn't noticed.

If you don't think gear progression doesn't mean raid or GTFO, you either never played WOW or the like, or you were one of the elitist "no fun allowed" types that ruins those beloved cookie cutter gear progression games. The fact is, this game never was what WOW was, and was touted as not being so. Bugs and a bad rep from the get go held this game from success, IMO. That is just my opinion, but it is a sound one. It was never the system. That was one of the selling points. You still have to beat difficult bosses in this game, and fare well in PVP, But guess what, they don't try and make you feel a psychological urge to with a carrot on a stick. They treat you like an adult. They create the drive to play through....actual fun. I, for one, don't want a game that feels like work. If that is what you want, why aren't you playing WOW. You seem to love that system, and dislike this one. Why are you here? Lastly. gear progression doesn't "work". Every MMO that tries it, ie: all of them, fail with the acception of WOW. But WOWs success doesn't have simply to do with that system. It has to do with being at the right place, at the right time, at one time showing outstanding support, and players growing a deep connection and long term investment they can't break, honestly. So, please, If you want that game, it is there. Explain to me why you think this game should just become a carbon copy, seriously.

Here's a fun fact for you: about 50% of people I knew dropped the game last summer, because of disappointing end game.

Not because of bugs, not because of broken class mechanics, not because of lag, but because the end game was basicly just two ridiculously easy, 10 minute long glorified group dungeons that had zero incentive for running them.

Of course, my view is just a narrow one of a single person, but what I can tell you for certain is that you do not keep the hardcore audience playing without giving them incentives to do so, and this hardcore audience is the audience that makes the youtube videos & twitch streams, find bugs & keeps pushing the boundaries of PvE and PvP.
The audience which makes the game what it is and keeps it visible to gamers around the world.

Marketing that no money can buy, and without which no MMO can succeed, or even survive in most cases.

Players have been playing to beat big difficult bosses since the very onset of (MMO)RPG gaming. It is natural to expect these difficult bosses to be drop epic loot (just like in every RPG, ever). In MMOs, your character isn't there just to level up to max. level and then... just hang out with no purpose or goals.

Just out of curiosity, are you VR14 yet? Because the argument that no gameplay incentives are required, and that game being "fun" is enough are often presented by players, who are not even playing the end game yet.

It stems from the somewhat hysterical hatred that WoW gets from some people, which they automatically latch on to every other MMO they see out there.

"WoW has it, so it must be the pinnacle of evil and I must hate it"

Here's another fun fact for you: gear progression existed long, long before WoW, and it exists because it works and makes sense in a RPG. Developers are not idiots, they don't put things in because "WoW has it", they put things in because they believe they create a better gameplay experience.

Heck, even FPS games have started to incorporate RPG elements such as gear progression (Destiny).

So let's stop with all this WoW hate and start looking things objectively, shall we? Just because you can kill monsters or cast magic doesn't make anything a "WoW copy", nor does it make WoW a copy of anything. It makes a game RPG, and same applies to gear progression.

To conclude this, I'd like to ask you a question: how does having character progression via gear at end game hurt you in any way, if that gear is obtainable just by doing what you enjoy doing? If powerful gear was accessible via both PvE & PvP based on player merits (like in all modern MMOs), how would that be detrimental to your (or anyone else's) gameplay?

Just out of curiosity, of course

P.S. This game already feels like work, but one that I don't enjoy. Haven't you opened up Champion System yet?

The people who left is the wow players that populate every mmo in first months until they leave it for x.reasons..even if eso had raids those people would find another reason to quit..they would whine about how better raids are in wow and the such.

I think of them as addicted to gear and loot. They see the new mmo as a new 3 month patch with new gear..they rush to the top and grind to get that gear and then they go back to wow..

Why people left swtor? Wildstar? Lotro? And all these games that thought gear progression is the key? Also a game does not need to please all players..and there are many games to please the loot addicts..eso and gw2 are the ones left for the rest of gamers.

Tors · May 2015

docstrawb wrote: »

.....the possibility of ESO going to a ..... gear progression system. Ilvls and lockouts . It is all hearsay. ....

it is all heresy!!

This game requires you to gain levels to get power, be it 1-50 or 1-64 and gear is given stats dependant on what level it is. So there IS a form of progression bulit into this system, BUT a level 1 can have his pick of any crafted set with stats applicable for a level 1

The gear progression system that WoW implemented is there to give a person an addictive reason to continue playing once they hit max level.

I have seen many systems in use over the last 25-30 years, some awesom (Asherons Call had a fantastic system that I still rate above all others) and some terrible (Anarchay Onlines first few attempts were pretty fubar, same gear different graphics etc)

Wow DID implement the current raid-gear-to-get-gear-for-the next-raid and it does alienate a large proportion of the player base. I have been lucky to be in guilds that have the big instances on farm, so I was in a position to get the "Awesome Kids" sloppy seconds, but the requirment to do the same thing over and over once a week is boaring (I have over 4 years on my wow /played time, so i dont get board easily btw)

The worst part about this gear progression system is when PvE players who can get the stuff encounter PvP players in whatever PvP enviroment there is and they steam roll them as if they were n00bs. This kills a game faster than ebola for most pvp players.

When the counter to a strong well lead PvP group is, PvE content, then there is no point in PvP. The PvPer cant match the gear of the PvE player.

asteldian · May 2015

Gear progression is not the enemy, extreme limitations on where that gear is obtained is the problem. The current system works to the extent that all BiS is not locked behind just one type of content, where it fails is that it is actually totally missing from the content usually guilty of hiding all the goodies.
BiS gear in raids can have similar equivalents in PvP, crafted gear can be a close stand in/for some builds BiS, 4 man content can provide some BiS too like it does now with undaunted.
People fear progression because historically it is stuck behind raiding, but if ZOS is smart they can avoid that issue. Given wide variety of playstyles and build styles (even at end game there is a variety of trial ready builds that can be used) there is plenty of opportunity to have various BiS all over the place.

docstrawb · May 2015

DDuke wrote: »

Here's a fun fact for you: about 50% of people I knew dropped the game last summer, because of disappointing end game.

Not because of bugs, not because of broken class mechanics, not because of lag, but because the end game was basicly just two ridiculously easy, 10 minute long glorified group dungeons that had zero incentive for running them.

Of course, my view is just a narrow one of a single person, but what I can tell you for certain is that you do not keep the hardcore audience playing without giving them incentives to do so, and this hardcore audience is the audience that makes the youtube videos & twitch streams, find bugs & keeps pushing the boundaries of PvE and PvP.
The audience which makes the game what it is and keeps it visible to gamers around the world.

Marketing that no money can buy, and without which no MMO can succeed, or even survive in most cases.

Players have been playing to beat big difficult bosses since the very onset of (MMO)RPG gaming. It is natural to expect these difficult bosses to be drop epic loot (just like in every RPG, ever). In MMOs, your character isn't there just to level up to max. level and then... just hang out with no purpose or goals.

Just out of curiosity, are you VR14 yet? Because the argument that no gameplay incentives are required, and that game being "fun" is enough are often presented by players, who are not even playing the end game yet.

It stems from the somewhat hysterical hatred that WoW gets from some people, which they automatically latch on to every other MMO they see out there.

"WoW has it, so it must be the pinnacle of evil and I must hate it"

Here's another fun fact for you: gear progression existed long, long before WoW, and it exists because it works and makes sense in a RPG. Developers are not idiots, they don't put things in because "WoW has it", they put things in because they believe they create a better gameplay experience.

Heck, even FPS games have started to incorporate RPG elements such as gear progression (Destiny).

So let's stop with all this WoW hate and start looking things objectively, shall we? Just because you can kill monsters or cast magic doesn't make anything a "WoW copy", nor does it make WoW a copy of anything. It makes a game RPG, and same applies to gear progression.

To conclude this, I'd like to ask you a question: how does having character progression via gear at end game hurt you in any way, if that gear is obtainable just by doing what you enjoy doing? If powerful gear was accessible via both PvE & PvP based on player merits (like in all modern MMOs), how would that be detrimental to your (or anyone else's) gameplay?

Just out of curiosity, of course

P.S. This game already feels like work, but one that I don't enjoy. Haven't you opened up Champion System yet?

Fun fact for you, 75% of the WOW players I know quit because of the beautiful carrot on a stick system. To say this type of system doesn't sustain playerbase is outright wrong. Have you never heard of a little game called diablo2? It is at this point graphically and mechanically obsolete and still has a playerbase because of its system. A system ESO is modeled after. A system people enjoy. Not to mention the successful clones like POE, Torchlight and even D3. Maybe not everyone likes it, obviously including you. But guess what, you have millions of options. Play WOW, Neverwinter, Rift, FF14, Destiny, SWTOR (should i keep going? If you can't find one of these wallbeaters, i can direct you to an endless landscape of them.) Don't try and turn the one drastically different MMO into the same thing. To clear it up, also, I don't hate well done gear progression. But it doesn't exist anymore, due the the evil WOW (kek). It all leads to player separation, progress capping, lockouts, and an eventual casualization. Yes, btw, I play endgame. It is glorious. It isn't about the once a week large group boss kill. It isn't about the weekly capped currency to buy gear. It is about going out and farming sets, crafting sets, trying things, tweeking. A very successful RPG model, one of the most successful actually. Simply the first time its been implemented into an MMO environment. If you don't like it, or the champion system, another successful model that allows near endless progression that actually comes from play time and not exclusivity and gear, doesn't mean saying the WOW gear treadmill is the only successful RPG model over and over makes it true, because it is not. So seriously, the question that bugs me the most. Why are you here? Why aren't you playing WOW? The comments on this forum show the majority doesn't want it. So your "I dont want raids so noone else can have them" accusation seems to be a trait you share. Lets us have our game, and go pick from your large choice of options, so we still have something to enjoy? That would be nice.

bloodenragedb14_ESO · May 2015

i think Gear Grind should be eliminated from mmo's in general.

Robotmafia · May 2015

well I wouldn't say gear farming isn't a part of this game... I know a lot of people who already farm certain dungeons for a specific piece of gear... pledges and the "new" 2 pieces sets are good example... master weapon farms.. and so on... but at an end game HC level that is normal and not even that bad... you need some kind of motivation to play content more than a few times... take most racing games for example... u spend 90% of the time wanting a better car and as soon as u have the best car the game is beat and you race a few more times and that's it... incentive drives people to play...

on the otherhand I completely agree that there should be a large portion of the game where all this isn't important.. which it isn't atm... which is good... I like the hardmode concept of giving us the choice.. normal mode should be doable without optimal gear, builds and skill... but there also needs to be a portion for the high end players... I personally enjoy fine tuning my build and gear and then completing harder challenges..

DDuke · May 2015

Tors wrote: »

docstrawb wrote: »

.....the possibility of ESO going to a ..... gear progression system. Ilvls and lockouts . It is all hearsay. ....

it is all heresy!!

This game requires you to gain levels to get power, be it 1-50 or 1-64 and gear is given stats dependant on what level it is. So there IS a form of progression bulit into this system, BUT a level 1 can have his pick of any crafted set with stats applicable for a level 1

Yes, and this progression ends at "level 64" after which you're forced to grind goblins in a small cave for stat increases, because that is so much better than big, epic raids & loot *rolls eyes*

Tors wrote: »

The gear progression system that WoW implemented is there to give a person an addictive reason to continue playing once they hit max level.

Wow DID implement the current raid-gear-to-get-gear-for-the next-raid and it does alienate a large proportion of the player base. I have been lucky to be in guilds that have the big instances on farm, so I was in a position to get the "Awesome Kids" sloppy seconds, but the requirment to do the same thing over and over once a week is boaring (I have over 4 years on my wow /played time, so i dont get board easily btw)

So it managed to keep you around for 4 years? Must be boring indeed...

How long have people been playing ESO, a year at most? And it's already struggling to keep players.
Most people I know are bored & feel unincentivized to do anything in game, and the people I don't know will be, once they reach max. level and find out there's no reason to play anymore.

Why spend hundreds of hours in that 10 minute long "raid" (trial) to get Vicious Ophidian with best possible traits, when you can just craft a better set for both PvE & PvP (Hunding's Rage) in 5 minutes?

The people who have been most enthusiastic about this game & most supportive towards it are leaving, and this is not a good thing.

Tors wrote: »

The worst part about this gear progression system is when PvE players who can get the stuff encounter PvP players in whatever PvP enviroment there is and they steam roll them as if they were n00bs. This kills a game faster than ebola for most pvp players.

When the counter to a strong well lead PvP group is, PvE content, then there is no point in PvP. The PvPer cant match the gear of the PvE player.

You're saying you played WoW for 4 years, but never came across the PvP gear in that game? From personal experience, I can say I had zero problems in PvP wearing the blue (not even the epic one which was available for higher ranks) variant of the gear (I played rogue, shaman & shadow priest).

Of course the idea is that you get strong gear from PvP and you get strong gear from PvE.
That's how gear works in most MMOs.