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Please add 'dummy' mobs to test DPS
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Sotha_Sil✭✭✭✭✭
✭I am surprised the ban hammer moderation have not yet come to this forum as it is forbidden to spread misinformation :P
But I agree with you @Yolokin_SwagonbornEdited by Sotha_Sil on May 22, 2015 10:08AMRestoration is a perfectly valid school of magic, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise! - Spells and incantations for those with the talent to cast them!0 -
Xendyn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Don't see any reason why this can't be implemented easily.
Fighter's Guild npc's, Mages Guild npc's, City Guard npc's, Soldier npc's are already beating on practice dummies everywhere.
We don't need anything fancy, just stick some out at one of our Cyro spawn gates where they won't interfere with anyone's "immersion" and let us have at them.
why not @ZOS
Edited to add: No, we shouldn't have to pay for themEdited by Xendyn on May 22, 2015 10:54AMLag is ruinin' my 'mershun!
A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in.
There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance - Socrates
Member of the Old Guard, keepers of the game's history
PC/NA1 -
Titansteele✭✭✭✭✭
Guild Leader of The Twelve Knights, AD PVE, PVP and Trading Guild on the EU Mega Server
"That which does not kill us makes us stronger"3 -
Sacadon✭✭✭✭✭
Unless you play 24x7, pause the download and resume it when you're offline. I know cost is relative, but disk space is very cheap these days. PTS works same as Live, but better in some ways at least for testing. Most tests require 2 accounts (yours or another player) and a trip to Cyrodiil. You can create very specific and repeatabile test scenarios. This works very well and has been for a long time. So I think the argument for test dummies is still very thin at best.
If ZOS was hiding their bugs they would not have opened up PTS. I'm not saying ZOS doesn't make mistakes and all companies work to not air their dirty laundry needlessly. But I don't think they are explicitly hiding bugs. Instead they know like all companies do, that there's no such thing as a bug free release. And therefore stylistically they have chosen to go forward and deal with the fallout of a release with broken functionality vs. the fallout of missing a date for a major release.
Notice I'm not giving an opinion on which I prefer. I'm just saying there's no value to anyone to speculate about them hiding things. Many of us continually expose and prove their bugs and what does and does not work in the champion system and other things using both live and PTS. If they were controlling such exposure then they'd have shut us out of PTS long time ago. Please take off the tin foil hats people.
Yes I do want test dummies. But as long as we have PTS, and we are not lazy and use our brains, I don't see why it should be a priority relative to other issues. There are more tests that you can accomplish on PTS than you can on a dummy anyway based on how it's been described/envisioned here... because in PTS you easily have control over all the variables and on both sides of the test. There are limits yes, but nowhere near what they'd be if they just gave us a high health dummy to wail on. Aaaaand creating a configuration UI to setup the dummy for various tests (diff health, resists etc...) is not as fast as you think it is. (yes I work in IT and know what it takes to do such things for real)1 -
Addihul✭✭✭
I haven't played on PTS much but last I checked you get a full set of trials gear and that's it. Tough to test builds with one static set. Aaandd.. mods?Practice your builds on the PTS server. There are plenty of mods there to test on.
Pevara La'Roche - NA / DC - The Order of Mundus - http://orderofmundus.com0 -
Faugaun✭✭✭✭✭Well, well, well...
Dummy mobs ay?
Sounds like they'd be rather, rather convenient.
How convenient?
Crown Store convenient.
Consumable convenient.
Make them 250 crowns with a 1 hour duration only the owner can see and use them.
My new startup social network for Theorycrafting
Champion Point Calculators
Sharable samples:
http://asolutionaday.com/test/Warrior.htm?ba=5&bl=&e=12&ha=10&he=&l=&m=&n=5&q=20&r=15&s=15&t=18
http://asolutionaday.com/test/Thief.htm?a=5&b=22&d=2&e=18&h=8&ma=0&mo=5&sh=9&sp=19&te=12&tu=13&w=1
http://asolutionaday.com/test/Mage.htm?bla=5&ble=1&bo=6&ele=2&elf=3&h=7&m=9&pi=10&pr=20&sp=4&st=8&t=400 -
Valymer✭✭✭✭✭
Unless you play 24x7, pause the download and resume it when you're offline. I know cost is relative, but disk space is very cheap these days. PTS works same as Live, but better in some ways at least for testing. Most tests require 2 accounts (yours or another player) and a trip to Cyrodiil. You can create very specific and repeatabile test scenarios. This works very well and has been for a long time. So I think the argument for test dummies is still very thin at best.
If ZOS was hiding their bugs they would not have opened up PTS. I'm not saying ZOS doesn't make mistakes and all companies work to not air their dirty laundry needlessly. But I don't think they are explicitly hiding bugs. Instead they know like all companies do, that there's no such thing as a bug free release. And therefore stylistically they have chosen to go forward and deal with the fallout of a release with broken functionality vs. the fallout of missing a date for a major release.
Notice I'm not giving an opinion on which I prefer. I'm just saying there's no value to anyone to speculate about them hiding things. Many of us continually expose and prove their bugs and what does and does not work in the champion system and other things using both live and PTS. If they were controlling such exposure then they'd have shut us out of PTS long time ago. Please take off the tin foil hats people.
Yes I do want test dummies. But as long as we have PTS, and we are not lazy and use our brains, I don't see why it should be a priority relative to other issues. There are more tests that you can accomplish on PTS than you can on a dummy anyway based on how it's been described/envisioned here... because in PTS you easily have control over all the variables and on both sides of the test. There are limits yes, but nowhere near what they'd be if they just gave us a high health dummy to wail on. Aaaaand creating a configuration UI to setup the dummy for various tests (diff health, resists etc...) is not as fast as you think it is. (yes I work in IT and know what it takes to do such things for real)
I'm not sure that you understand how the PTS works.0 -
Addihul✭✭✭
Ouch. I believe you that this strategy has been around for a long time. However, I assume you're talking about gearing up a player character and testing deeps against them? That hardly constitutes anything more than burst damage. We need long sustained tests lasting a minimum of 30 seconds.. with the chance to kill the target for execute testing. Now if you're talking about pounding away at guards or other mobs, not sure why you can't just go to the rift and do the exact same thing. We also can't know for certain what AC/SR those NPCs are running. And since you're only given one set of gear to roll with when you transfer, it just doesn't serve for a true test. Not feeling this scenario here. Not seeing how it makes the argument for test dummies thin. All due respect to you and your thoughts....PTS works same as Live, but better in some ways at least for testing. Most tests require 2 accounts (yours or another player) and a trip to Cyrodiil. You can create very specific and repeatable test scenarios. This works very well and has been for a long time. So I think the argument for test dummies is still very thin at best.Pevara La'Roche - NA / DC - The Order of Mundus - http://orderofmundus.com0 -
RSram✭✭✭✭✭
I agree, but with all the issues and proposed DLC's in ESO, I don't see a test dummy scenario happening. What you can easily test in the PTS is base builds independent of and specific armor. This will allow you to test which skills and skill combinations that give the most DPS. Adding armor will enhance the configuration. It's not perfect, but it's better than nothing.1 -
Zorrashi✭✭✭✭✭Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »Alphashado wrote: »We have been asking for target dummies for ever. The only thing we've gotten in response was a short answer to a question in one ESO LIVE episode where a dev said they might do it sometime in the future. He said that the testing dept already has target dummies that they use during development and testing.
So I'm not sure why it's so difficult to add them to the game.
It's not difficult. That's not the issue. They don't want us to have it.
[...] ZOS's favorite type of player is the kind that haphazardly wacks away at enemies with a big dopey grin on his face not caring what his DPS is or if his gear is BIS. That's why the CS team caters so hard to RP'ers. [...]
Pfft. Please, if ZOS really wanted to cater to the RP crowd they would have already implemented testing dummies. There is so much immersive potential in it.....what was the last 'RP-centric' update they did? Armor dying was it? Maybe the Justice System, but that was for everyone yes? But as it stands, all the staff responds to are the "nerf this!" and "X class is op!" threads.
What ZOS really caters to are the whiners. The ones that want to nerf content and abilities.
But I digress, the testing dummies can indeed provide a suitable self-measurement of damage output. So long as the numbers can stay private and are unable to be linked in chat, the dummies can remain as tools the player can use at their own leisure.0 -
Sacadon✭✭✭✭✭
Unless you play 24x7, pause the download and resume it when you're offline. I know cost is relative, but disk space is very cheap these days. PTS works same as Live, but better in some ways at least for testing. Most tests require 2 accounts (yours or another player) and a trip to Cyrodiil. You can create very specific and repeatabile test scenarios. This works very well and has been for a long time. So I think the argument for test dummies is still very thin at best.
If ZOS was hiding their bugs they would not have opened up PTS. I'm not saying ZOS doesn't make mistakes and all companies work to not air their dirty laundry needlessly. But I don't think they are explicitly hiding bugs. Instead they know like all companies do, that there's no such thing as a bug free release. And therefore stylistically they have chosen to go forward and deal with the fallout of a release with broken functionality vs. the fallout of missing a date for a major release.
Notice I'm not giving an opinion on which I prefer. I'm just saying there's no value to anyone to speculate about them hiding things. Many of us continually expose and prove their bugs and what does and does not work in the champion system and other things using both live and PTS. If they were controlling such exposure then they'd have shut us out of PTS long time ago. Please take off the tin foil hats people.
Yes I do want test dummies. But as long as we have PTS, and we are not lazy and use our brains, I don't see why it should be a priority relative to other issues. There are more tests that you can accomplish on PTS than you can on a dummy anyway based on how it's been described/envisioned here... because in PTS you easily have control over all the variables and on both sides of the test. There are limits yes, but nowhere near what they'd be if they just gave us a high health dummy to wail on. Aaaaand creating a configuration UI to setup the dummy for various tests (diff health, resists etc...) is not as fast as you think it is. (yes I work in IT and know what it takes to do such things for real)
I'm not sure that you understand how the PTS works.
Please elaborate on what you're saying. I test on it weekly. So I'm anxious to here what I don't understand
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Alphashado✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The PTS does not have target dummies. It offers no more opportunity to test your build in a convenient, reliable manner than you can find on the normal server. In fact it's even harder to test your build on the PTS because you can't find a group for anything.
That being said, you shouldn't have to find a group in order to test your build. As mentioned above, target dummies are a staple of most AAA MMOs already. They are just another example of a standard feature excluded from ESO.
I don't really subscribe to the notion that they are intentionally withholding them because they want to keep us in the dark. I think it's a much simpler yet no less appalling reason- They are just ignorant to the rest of the MMO world.
This is their first MMO and they don't seem to do any research at all into other successful MMOs as to what works, what is popular with the player base, and what is standard. There are several other examples of this such as a disfuctional LFG tool, no search bar on guild stores and basic UI functions.
I started an extensive thread on this subject many months ago and even updated it during the 1.6 testing phase. http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/140994/formal-request-for-target-dummies-1-6-is-a-perfect-example
This 5 page thread did not even get a response from a moderator. I just think they don't comprehend how significant such a small addition would be.
Intentionally keeping us in the dark is a nice tinfoil hat theory that could have some merit. Especially when they could make bank selling them on the crown store. But I believe it's more along the lines of a rookie MMO developer being a rookie.1 -
Sacadon✭✭✭✭✭
Ouch. I believe you that this strategy has been around for a long time. However, I assume you're talking about gearing up a player character and testing deeps against them? That hardly constitutes anything more than burst damage. We need long sustained tests lasting a minimum of 30 seconds.. with the chance to kill the target for execute testing. Now if you're talking about pounding away at guards or other mobs, not sure why you can't just go to the rift and do the exact same thing. We also can't know for certain what AC/SR those NPCs are running. And since you're only given one set of gear to roll with when you transfer, it just doesn't serve for a true test. Not feeling this scenario here. Not seeing how it makes the argument for test dummies thin. All due respect to you and your thoughts....PTS works same as Live, but better in some ways at least for testing. Most tests require 2 accounts (yours or another player) and a trip to Cyrodiil. You can create very specific and repeatable test scenarios. This works very well and has been for a long time. So I think the argument for test dummies is still very thin at best.
Ouch. I believe you that this strategy has been around for a long time. However, I assume you're talking about gearing up a player character and testing deeps against them? That hardly constitutes anything more than burst damage. We need long sustained tests lasting a minimum of 30 seconds.. with the chance to kill the target for execute testing. Now if you're talking about pounding away at guards or other mobs, not sure why you can't just go to the rift and do the exact same thing. We also can't know for certain what AC/SR those NPCs are running. And since you're only given one set of gear to roll with when you transfer, it just doesn't serve for a true test. Not feeling this scenario here. Not seeing how it makes the argument for test dummies thin. All due respect to you and your thoughts....PTS works same as Live, but better in some ways at least for testing. Most tests require 2 accounts (yours or another player) and a trip to Cyrodiil. You can create very specific and repeatable test scenarios. This works very well and has been for a long time. So I think the argument for test dummies is still very thin at best.
Appreciate the thoughtful response. Please give me a scenario in which you'd like to test and let's see how viable or not PTS is for it. As you'll see from my other comments, I always admit when I'm wrong.0 -
Alphashado✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Ouch. I believe you that this strategy has been around for a long time. However, I assume you're talking about gearing up a player character and testing deeps against them? That hardly constitutes anything more than burst damage. We need long sustained tests lasting a minimum of 30 seconds.. with the chance to kill the target for execute testing. Now if you're talking about pounding away at guards or other mobs, not sure why you can't just go to the rift and do the exact same thing. We also can't know for certain what AC/SR those NPCs are running. And since you're only given one set of gear to roll with when you transfer, it just doesn't serve for a true test. Not feeling this scenario here. Not seeing how it makes the argument for test dummies thin. All due respect to you and your thoughts....PTS works same as Live, but better in some ways at least for testing. Most tests require 2 accounts (yours or another player) and a trip to Cyrodiil. You can create very specific and repeatable test scenarios. This works very well and has been for a long time. So I think the argument for test dummies is still very thin at best.
Ouch. I believe you that this strategy has been around for a long time. However, I assume you're talking about gearing up a player character and testing deeps against them? That hardly constitutes anything more than burst damage. We need long sustained tests lasting a minimum of 30 seconds.. with the chance to kill the target for execute testing. Now if you're talking about pounding away at guards or other mobs, not sure why you can't just go to the rift and do the exact same thing. We also can't know for certain what AC/SR those NPCs are running. And since you're only given one set of gear to roll with when you transfer, it just doesn't serve for a true test. Not feeling this scenario here. Not seeing how it makes the argument for test dummies thin. All due respect to you and your thoughts....PTS works same as Live, but better in some ways at least for testing. Most tests require 2 accounts (yours or another player) and a trip to Cyrodiil. You can create very specific and repeatable test scenarios. This works very well and has been for a long time. So I think the argument for test dummies is still very thin at best.
Appreciate the thoughtful response. Please give me a scenario in which you'd like to test and let's see how viable or not PTS is for it. As you'll see from my other comments, I always admit when I'm wrong.
Sustained dps is what we can't test currently at our convenience. Elite trash like trolls or mammoths die in 3-5 seconds with a good build. That is only good for testing burst damage. The real test comes when you start to run low on magicka/stamina. This requires a fight that lasts 120 seconds+. You can only find a fight lasting this duration on dungeon or trial bosses that require you to find a group and you can only test it accurately on bosses that just stand there. (which most don't).
There is nothing on the PTS that offers this that can't already be found on the standard servers.
Edited by Alphashado on May 22, 2015 3:14PM0 -
Addihul✭✭✭
Example: I'd like to test sharpened vs nirnhoned vs precise weapons on a mob with 'x' spell resist for a total of 120 seconds. I'd like to swap out pieces of +spell damage with regen, scost reduction, etc to find good balances for 50/50 gear vs pure deeps. These sets need to be the same sets I've purchased and or looted on the live server to get an accurate depiction. I'd like to test CP spell erosion and thaumaturge bonuses.. etc. I'd like to see how adding and removing certain skills from my weave effect my DPS. Etc..Appreciate the thoughtful response. Please give me a scenario in which you'd like to test and let's see how viable or not PTS is for it. As you'll see from my other comments, I always admit when I'm wrong.
I can of course do this now in game. We all can.. but grinding through the same dungeon to fight the same boss with varying factors of all kind yields skewed results. God forbid RNG, add spawns and other mechanics that interrupt a parse. Not that this is bad. I love the game play in ESO. I don't want to stand still during a boss fight and just click a couple skills endlessly. I enjoy the challenge. Generally speaking you have an 'idea' of your potential, but can't really crunch the numbers like you could with dummies.
Pevara La'Roche - NA / DC - The Order of Mundus - http://orderofmundus.com0 -
Sacadon✭✭✭✭✭Alphashado wrote: »
Ouch. I believe you that this strategy has been around for a long time. However, I assume you're talking about gearing up a player character and testing deeps against them? That hardly constitutes anything more than burst damage. We need long sustained tests lasting a minimum of 30 seconds.. with the chance to kill the target for execute testing. Now if you're talking about pounding away at guards or other mobs, not sure why you can't just go to the rift and do the exact same thing. We also can't know for certain what AC/SR those NPCs are running. And since you're only given one set of gear to roll with when you transfer, it just doesn't serve for a true test. Not feeling this scenario here. Not seeing how it makes the argument for test dummies thin. All due respect to you and your thoughts....PTS works same as Live, but better in some ways at least for testing. Most tests require 2 accounts (yours or another player) and a trip to Cyrodiil. You can create very specific and repeatable test scenarios. This works very well and has been for a long time. So I think the argument for test dummies is still very thin at best.
Ouch. I believe you that this strategy has been around for a long time. However, I assume you're talking about gearing up a player character and testing deeps against them? That hardly constitutes anything more than burst damage. We need long sustained tests lasting a minimum of 30 seconds.. with the chance to kill the target for execute testing. Now if you're talking about pounding away at guards or other mobs, not sure why you can't just go to the rift and do the exact same thing. We also can't know for certain what AC/SR those NPCs are running. And since you're only given one set of gear to roll with when you transfer, it just doesn't serve for a true test. Not feeling this scenario here. Not seeing how it makes the argument for test dummies thin. All due respect to you and your thoughts....PTS works same as Live, but better in some ways at least for testing. Most tests require 2 accounts (yours or another player) and a trip to Cyrodiil. You can create very specific and repeatable test scenarios. This works very well and has been for a long time. So I think the argument for test dummies is still very thin at best.
Appreciate the thoughtful response. Please give me a scenario in which you'd like to test and let's see how viable or not PTS is for it. As you'll see from my other comments, I always admit when I'm wrong.
Sustained dps is what we can't test currently at our convenience. Elite trash like trolls or mammoths die in 3-5 seconds with a good build. That is only good for testing burst damage. The real test comes when you start to run low on magicka/stamina. This requires a fight that lasts 120 seconds+. You can only find a fight lasting this duration on dungeon or trial bosses that require you to find a group and you can only test it accurately on bosses that just stand there. (which most don't).
There is nothing on the PTS that offers this that can't already be found on the standard servers.
Is the goal to be able to do this solo? As long as you had someone on the other end running shields, green dragon blood, POTs and health recovery at 1700+, I don't see any issue in running this for 120 seconds (I just now tested this with the wife BTW @Valymer ). But if the goal is to do this solo, then you'll probably have to select a boss fight as you would on the live servers. However, PTS allows you to do such things you would on live servers but without a bunch of other players and other things that interfere with tests.
I do think this is a case where having a configurable target dummy would be great. But this is something that would take dev time on the backend and UI to get it production worthy. And when you contrast that with broken skills, this pales in comparison.
EDIT: If you've another system, you could macro refreshing GDB, Shields and POTs to keep the dummy DK alive while you wail. I will test this as I would like to use this to repeatably test my DPS setup.
Edited by Sacadon on May 22, 2015 3:50PM0 -
Gidorick✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭They need to make dead horses Target Dummies:Ok... so here's an easy one that came form us joking around in my other thread that came from joking around... The Auction Horse Thread.
Any time you come across a Dead Horse in Tamriel...
Let us hit the blasted thing and see how much damage we're doing.
Maybe add an animation of the dead horse's weight shifting from our blow and a "THUNK" sound but apart from that just have numbers float up to let us know the damage. Only the player doing the damage should see their numbers so multiple players could beat on the Dead Horse at once and they would all get to see the damage they're doing?
Thoughts?
From: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/160275/dead-horse-nope-target-dummyWhat ESO really needs is an Auction Horse.
That's right... Horse.
Click HERE to discuss.
Want more crazy ideas? Check out my Concept Repository!1 -
Valymer✭✭✭✭✭
Unless you play 24x7, pause the download and resume it when you're offline. I know cost is relative, but disk space is very cheap these days. PTS works same as Live, but better in some ways at least for testing. Most tests require 2 accounts (yours or another player) and a trip to Cyrodiil. You can create very specific and repeatabile test scenarios. This works very well and has been for a long time. So I think the argument for test dummies is still very thin at best.
If ZOS was hiding their bugs they would not have opened up PTS. I'm not saying ZOS doesn't make mistakes and all companies work to not air their dirty laundry needlessly. But I don't think they are explicitly hiding bugs. Instead they know like all companies do, that there's no such thing as a bug free release. And therefore stylistically they have chosen to go forward and deal with the fallout of a release with broken functionality vs. the fallout of missing a date for a major release.
Notice I'm not giving an opinion on which I prefer. I'm just saying there's no value to anyone to speculate about them hiding things. Many of us continually expose and prove their bugs and what does and does not work in the champion system and other things using both live and PTS. If they were controlling such exposure then they'd have shut us out of PTS long time ago. Please take off the tin foil hats people.
Yes I do want test dummies. But as long as we have PTS, and we are not lazy and use our brains, I don't see why it should be a priority relative to other issues. There are more tests that you can accomplish on PTS than you can on a dummy anyway based on how it's been described/envisioned here... because in PTS you easily have control over all the variables and on both sides of the test. There are limits yes, but nowhere near what they'd be if they just gave us a high health dummy to wail on. Aaaaand creating a configuration UI to setup the dummy for various tests (diff health, resists etc...) is not as fast as you think it is. (yes I work in IT and know what it takes to do such things for real)
I'm not sure that you understand how the PTS works.
Please elaborate on what you're saying. I test on it weekly. So I'm anxious to here what I don't understand
@Sacadon
Are you saying that I can, at any time, test my exact live-server build on the PTS against unmoving, infinite-HP static mobs?
If so, then I stand corrected.0 -
Alphashado✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Unless you play 24x7, pause the download and resume it when you're offline. I know cost is relative, but disk space is very cheap these days. PTS works same as Live, but better in some ways at least for testing. Most tests require 2 accounts (yours or another player) and a trip to Cyrodiil. You can create very specific and repeatabile test scenarios. This works very well and has been for a long time. So I think the argument for test dummies is still very thin at best.
If ZOS was hiding their bugs they would not have opened up PTS. I'm not saying ZOS doesn't make mistakes and all companies work to not air their dirty laundry needlessly. But I don't think they are explicitly hiding bugs. Instead they know like all companies do, that there's no such thing as a bug free release. And therefore stylistically they have chosen to go forward and deal with the fallout of a release with broken functionality vs. the fallout of missing a date for a major release.
Notice I'm not giving an opinion on which I prefer. I'm just saying there's no value to anyone to speculate about them hiding things. Many of us continually expose and prove their bugs and what does and does not work in the champion system and other things using both live and PTS. If they were controlling such exposure then they'd have shut us out of PTS long time ago. Please take off the tin foil hats people.
Yes I do want test dummies. But as long as we have PTS, and we are not lazy and use our brains, I don't see why it should be a priority relative to other issues. There are more tests that you can accomplish on PTS than you can on a dummy anyway based on how it's been described/envisioned here... because in PTS you easily have control over all the variables and on both sides of the test. There are limits yes, but nowhere near what they'd be if they just gave us a high health dummy to wail on. Aaaaand creating a configuration UI to setup the dummy for various tests (diff health, resists etc...) is not as fast as you think it is. (yes I work in IT and know what it takes to do such things for real)
I'm not sure that you understand how the PTS works.
Please elaborate on what you're saying. I test on it weekly. So I'm anxious to here what I don't understand
@Sacadon
Are you saying that I can, at any time, test my exact live-server build on the PTS against unmoving, infinite-HP static mobs?
If so, then I stand corrected.
He is talking about having a friend stand there and heal himself in a different faction in Cyrodiil while you whack away on him. Or having two accounts and using your own character from the other account. With the target character spamming heals via macro or other fashion.
This would work of course, but I'm not sure how often you can copy your current gear to the pts. Plus it's nowhere near as convenient as a target dummy. And I believe he is suggesting doing this on the PTS because Cyrodiil is dead there and you won't have to worry about some goofball coming up and attacking you or your other character during your testing.
I will admit it's a creative idea, and better than nothing, but still not comparable to the convenience of a true target dummy.
Edited by Alphashado on May 22, 2015 4:31PM0 -
Daveheart✭✭✭✭Alphashado wrote: »
Ouch. I believe you that this strategy has been around for a long time. However, I assume you're talking about gearing up a player character and testing deeps against them? That hardly constitutes anything more than burst damage. We need long sustained tests lasting a minimum of 30 seconds.. with the chance to kill the target for execute testing. Now if you're talking about pounding away at guards or other mobs, not sure why you can't just go to the rift and do the exact same thing. We also can't know for certain what AC/SR those NPCs are running. And since you're only given one set of gear to roll with when you transfer, it just doesn't serve for a true test. Not feeling this scenario here. Not seeing how it makes the argument for test dummies thin. All due respect to you and your thoughts....PTS works same as Live, but better in some ways at least for testing. Most tests require 2 accounts (yours or another player) and a trip to Cyrodiil. You can create very specific and repeatable test scenarios. This works very well and has been for a long time. So I think the argument for test dummies is still very thin at best.
Ouch. I believe you that this strategy has been around for a long time. However, I assume you're talking about gearing up a player character and testing deeps against them? That hardly constitutes anything more than burst damage. We need long sustained tests lasting a minimum of 30 seconds.. with the chance to kill the target for execute testing. Now if you're talking about pounding away at guards or other mobs, not sure why you can't just go to the rift and do the exact same thing. We also can't know for certain what AC/SR those NPCs are running. And since you're only given one set of gear to roll with when you transfer, it just doesn't serve for a true test. Not feeling this scenario here. Not seeing how it makes the argument for test dummies thin. All due respect to you and your thoughts....PTS works same as Live, but better in some ways at least for testing. Most tests require 2 accounts (yours or another player) and a trip to Cyrodiil. You can create very specific and repeatable test scenarios. This works very well and has been for a long time. So I think the argument for test dummies is still very thin at best.
Appreciate the thoughtful response. Please give me a scenario in which you'd like to test and let's see how viable or not PTS is for it. As you'll see from my other comments, I always admit when I'm wrong.
Sustained dps is what we can't test currently at our convenience. Elite trash like trolls or mammoths die in 3-5 seconds with a good build. That is only good for testing burst damage. The real test comes when you start to run low on magicka/stamina. This requires a fight that lasts 120 seconds+. You can only find a fight lasting this duration on dungeon or trial bosses that require you to find a group and you can only test it accurately on bosses that just stand there. (which most don't).
There is nothing on the PTS that offers this that can't already be found on the standard servers.
Is the goal to be able to do this solo? As long as you had someone on the other end running shields, green dragon blood, POTs and health recovery at 1700+, I don't see any issue in running this for 120 seconds (I just now tested this with the wife BTW @Valymer ). But if the goal is to do this solo, then you'll probably have to select a boss fight as you would on the live servers. However, PTS allows you to do such things you would on live servers but without a bunch of other players and other things that interfere with tests.
I do think this is a case where having a configurable target dummy would be great. But this is something that would take dev time on the backend and UI to get it production worthy. And when you contrast that with broken skills, this pales in comparison.
EDIT: If you've another system, you could macro refreshing GDB, Shields and POTs to keep the dummy DK alive while you wail. I will test this as I would like to use this to repeatably test my DPS setup.
You'd have to leave damage shields out of it if you're actually trying to get a consistent parse. Damage shields would mess with the crit component of the parse. You'd also likely need to leave out combat prayer/blessing of restoration unless you're trying to test against slightly higher mitigation numbers. You also run into various other issues caused by testing within Cyrodiil with the various adjustments for damage, health, etc. I'm not saying that testing on the PTS in Cyrodiil can't provide decent information, but a simple test dummy would be better.Edited by Daveheart on May 22, 2015 4:33PMDaggerfall Covenant (PC-NA)
The Order of Mundus | Nightfighters0 -
Addihul✭✭✭Nah Val he's talking about beefing up a friend in Cyrodiil on PTS and wailing on them till kingdom come. Not a comparable test. There are no dummies on PTSPevara La'Roche - NA / DC - The Order of Mundus - http://orderofmundus.com1
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Sacadon✭✭✭✭✭
Unless you play 24x7, pause the download and resume it when you're offline. I know cost is relative, but disk space is very cheap these days. PTS works same as Live, but better in some ways at least for testing. Most tests require 2 accounts (yours or another player) and a trip to Cyrodiil. You can create very specific and repeatabile test scenarios. This works very well and has been for a long time. So I think the argument for test dummies is still very thin at best.
If ZOS was hiding their bugs they would not have opened up PTS. I'm not saying ZOS doesn't make mistakes and all companies work to not air their dirty laundry needlessly. But I don't think they are explicitly hiding bugs. Instead they know like all companies do, that there's no such thing as a bug free release. And therefore stylistically they have chosen to go forward and deal with the fallout of a release with broken functionality vs. the fallout of missing a date for a major release.
Notice I'm not giving an opinion on which I prefer. I'm just saying there's no value to anyone to speculate about them hiding things. Many of us continually expose and prove their bugs and what does and does not work in the champion system and other things using both live and PTS. If they were controlling such exposure then they'd have shut us out of PTS long time ago. Please take off the tin foil hats people.
Yes I do want test dummies. But as long as we have PTS, and we are not lazy and use our brains, I don't see why it should be a priority relative to other issues. There are more tests that you can accomplish on PTS than you can on a dummy anyway based on how it's been described/envisioned here... because in PTS you easily have control over all the variables and on both sides of the test. There are limits yes, but nowhere near what they'd be if they just gave us a high health dummy to wail on. Aaaaand creating a configuration UI to setup the dummy for various tests (diff health, resists etc...) is not as fast as you think it is. (yes I work in IT and know what it takes to do such things for real)
I'm not sure that you understand how the PTS works.
Please elaborate on what you're saying. I test on it weekly. So I'm anxious to here what I don't understand
@Sacadon
Are you saying that I can, at any time, test my exact live-server build on the PTS against unmoving, infinite-HP static mobs?
If so, then I stand corrected.
No I'm not... As you already know, it's a point in time copy of either NA or EU (currently NA).0 -
Sacadon✭✭✭✭✭Alphashado wrote: »
Unless you play 24x7, pause the download and resume it when you're offline. I know cost is relative, but disk space is very cheap these days. PTS works same as Live, but better in some ways at least for testing. Most tests require 2 accounts (yours or another player) and a trip to Cyrodiil. You can create very specific and repeatabile test scenarios. This works very well and has been for a long time. So I think the argument for test dummies is still very thin at best.
If ZOS was hiding their bugs they would not have opened up PTS. I'm not saying ZOS doesn't make mistakes and all companies work to not air their dirty laundry needlessly. But I don't think they are explicitly hiding bugs. Instead they know like all companies do, that there's no such thing as a bug free release. And therefore stylistically they have chosen to go forward and deal with the fallout of a release with broken functionality vs. the fallout of missing a date for a major release.
Notice I'm not giving an opinion on which I prefer. I'm just saying there's no value to anyone to speculate about them hiding things. Many of us continually expose and prove their bugs and what does and does not work in the champion system and other things using both live and PTS. If they were controlling such exposure then they'd have shut us out of PTS long time ago. Please take off the tin foil hats people.
Yes I do want test dummies. But as long as we have PTS, and we are not lazy and use our brains, I don't see why it should be a priority relative to other issues. There are more tests that you can accomplish on PTS than you can on a dummy anyway based on how it's been described/envisioned here... because in PTS you easily have control over all the variables and on both sides of the test. There are limits yes, but nowhere near what they'd be if they just gave us a high health dummy to wail on. Aaaaand creating a configuration UI to setup the dummy for various tests (diff health, resists etc...) is not as fast as you think it is. (yes I work in IT and know what it takes to do such things for real)
I'm not sure that you understand how the PTS works.
Please elaborate on what you're saying. I test on it weekly. So I'm anxious to here what I don't understand
@Sacadon
Are you saying that I can, at any time, test my exact live-server build on the PTS against unmoving, infinite-HP static mobs?
If so, then I stand corrected.
He is talking about having a friend stand there and heal himself in a different faction in Cyrodiil while you whack away on him. Or having two accounts and using your own character from the other account. With the target character spamming heals via macro or other fashion.
This would work of course, but I'm not sure how often you can copy your current gear to the pts. Plus it's nowhere near as convenient as a target dummy. And I believe he is suggesting doing this on the PTS because Cyrodiil is dead there and you won't have to worry about some goofball coming up and attacking you or your other character during your testing.
I will admit it's a creative idea, and better than nothing, but still not comparable to the convenience of a true target dummy.
Spot on @Alphashado , it's most certainly sub-optimal to a configurable target dummy without doubt. Just trying to make best of our current situation. The only thing in this thread I disagreed with was ZOS intentionally dragging their feet on the dummy's for fear of having issues exposed. I've always had issue with their comms, lack thereof and convenient timing, and you'll see I created a forum post exactly about this.
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Sacadon✭✭✭✭✭
Example: I'd like to test sharpened vs nirnhoned vs precise weapons on a mob with 'x' spell resist for a total of 120 seconds. I'd like to swap out pieces of +spell damage with regen, scost reduction, etc to find good balances for 50/50 gear vs pure deeps. These sets need to be the same sets I've purchased and or looted on the live server to get an accurate depiction. I'd like to test CP spell erosion and thaumaturge bonuses.. etc. I'd like to see how adding and removing certain skills from my weave effect my DPS. Etc..Appreciate the thoughtful response. Please give me a scenario in which you'd like to test and let's see how viable or not PTS is for it. As you'll see from my other comments, I always admit when I'm wrong.
I can of course do this now in game. We all can.. but grinding through the same dungeon to fight the same boss with varying factors of all kind yields skewed results. God forbid RNG, add spawns and other mechanics that interrupt a parse. Not that this is bad. I love the game play in ESO. I don't want to stand still during a boss fight and just click a couple skills endlessly. I enjoy the challenge. Generally speaking you have an 'idea' of your potential, but can't really crunch the numbers like you could with dummies.
Agreed on the inconvenience and drawbacks to doing in the live environment.
If you've the nirnhoned already on NA in PTS then creating the mob with x spell resist using the template is doable. The 120 seconds piece is doable with another person on the end of the target and possibly macros (still TBD) to keep it alive.
The delay between live and PTS is an issue with this for sure. You'll see where I have been lobbying for a PTS refresh for a long time to no avail, but we just got one so I'm over it.
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Sacadon✭✭✭✭✭Alphashado wrote: »
Ouch. I believe you that this strategy has been around for a long time. However, I assume you're talking about gearing up a player character and testing deeps against them? That hardly constitutes anything more than burst damage. We need long sustained tests lasting a minimum of 30 seconds.. with the chance to kill the target for execute testing. Now if you're talking about pounding away at guards or other mobs, not sure why you can't just go to the rift and do the exact same thing. We also can't know for certain what AC/SR those NPCs are running. And since you're only given one set of gear to roll with when you transfer, it just doesn't serve for a true test. Not feeling this scenario here. Not seeing how it makes the argument for test dummies thin. All due respect to you and your thoughts....PTS works same as Live, but better in some ways at least for testing. Most tests require 2 accounts (yours or another player) and a trip to Cyrodiil. You can create very specific and repeatable test scenarios. This works very well and has been for a long time. So I think the argument for test dummies is still very thin at best.
Ouch. I believe you that this strategy has been around for a long time. However, I assume you're talking about gearing up a player character and testing deeps against them? That hardly constitutes anything more than burst damage. We need long sustained tests lasting a minimum of 30 seconds.. with the chance to kill the target for execute testing. Now if you're talking about pounding away at guards or other mobs, not sure why you can't just go to the rift and do the exact same thing. We also can't know for certain what AC/SR those NPCs are running. And since you're only given one set of gear to roll with when you transfer, it just doesn't serve for a true test. Not feeling this scenario here. Not seeing how it makes the argument for test dummies thin. All due respect to you and your thoughts....PTS works same as Live, but better in some ways at least for testing. Most tests require 2 accounts (yours or another player) and a trip to Cyrodiil. You can create very specific and repeatable test scenarios. This works very well and has been for a long time. So I think the argument for test dummies is still very thin at best.
Appreciate the thoughtful response. Please give me a scenario in which you'd like to test and let's see how viable or not PTS is for it. As you'll see from my other comments, I always admit when I'm wrong.
Sustained dps is what we can't test currently at our convenience. Elite trash like trolls or mammoths die in 3-5 seconds with a good build. That is only good for testing burst damage. The real test comes when you start to run low on magicka/stamina. This requires a fight that lasts 120 seconds+. You can only find a fight lasting this duration on dungeon or trial bosses that require you to find a group and you can only test it accurately on bosses that just stand there. (which most don't).
There is nothing on the PTS that offers this that can't already be found on the standard servers.
Is the goal to be able to do this solo? As long as you had someone on the other end running shields, green dragon blood, POTs and health recovery at 1700+, I don't see any issue in running this for 120 seconds (I just now tested this with the wife BTW @Valymer ). But if the goal is to do this solo, then you'll probably have to select a boss fight as you would on the live servers. However, PTS allows you to do such things you would on live servers but without a bunch of other players and other things that interfere with tests.
I do think this is a case where having a configurable target dummy would be great. But this is something that would take dev time on the backend and UI to get it production worthy. And when you contrast that with broken skills, this pales in comparison.
EDIT: If you've another system, you could macro refreshing GDB, Shields and POTs to keep the dummy DK alive while you wail. I will test this as I would like to use this to repeatably test my DPS setup.
You'd have to leave damage shields out of it if you're actually trying to get a consistent parse. Damage shields would mess with the crit component of the parse. You'd also likely need to leave out combat prayer/blessing of restoration unless you're trying to test against slightly higher mitigation numbers. You also run into various other issues caused by testing within Cyrodiil with the various adjustments for damage, health, etc. I'm not saying that testing on the PTS in Cyrodiil can't provide decent information, but a simple test dummy would be better.
Agreed on your points.
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Sacadon✭✭✭✭✭My comments on this topic may have not been entirely clear (based on responses to them). So in the interest of not wasting any more of our time, I'll give a go at being more direct.
I think:- We do have a very real need for target dummies
- Configurable target dummies for the varied types of testing mentioned in this thread, is fringe functionality relative to other incomplete aspects of the game (Broken skills, LFG, Guild Search, Inventory Filters etc...) regardless of how common it is in previous MMOs.
- ZOS comm strategy is to NOT speak up. And only they know why they do this. (I've been highly vocal about NOT liking this style and moderated several times because of my method of talking about it)
- Until we have target dummies, there are more viable forms of testing that can be done than not
- Some are confusing my responses for arguing against a target dummy when in fact, I'm contrasting what test capabilities we do have against other things that I think ZOS should be focused on (included but not limited to: broken skills, successful console launch, new content, lag issues in PvP).
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Valymer✭✭✭✭✭My comments on this topic may have not been entirely clear (based on responses to them). So in the interest of not wasting any more of our time, I'll give a go at being more direct.
I think:- We do have a very real need for target dummies
- Configurable target dummies for the varied types of testing mentioned in this thread, is fringe functionality relative to other incomplete aspects of the game (Broken skills, LFG, Guild Search, Inventory Filters etc...) regardless of how common it is in previous MMOs.
- ZOS comm strategy is to NOT speak up. And only they know why they do this. (I've been highly vocal about NOT liking this style and moderated several times because of my method of talking about it)
- Until we have target dummies, there are more viable forms of testing that can be done than not
- Some are confusing my responses for arguing against a target dummy when in fact, I'm contrasting what test capabilities we do have against other things that I think ZOS should be focused on (included but not limited to: broken skills, successful console launch, new content, lag issues in PvP).
OK that makes sense to me. Except you should consider this part:[*] Configurable target dummies for the varied types of testing mentioned in this thread, is fringe functionality relative to other incomplete aspects of the game (Broken skills, LFG, Guild Search, Inventory Filters etc...) regardless of how common it is in previous MMOs.
The addition of test dummies will have a direct impact on sussing out broken skills, and thus should be seen as just as much a benefit for Zenimax as for the players.0