Please add 'dummy' mobs to test DPS

Addihul · May 2015

A number of MMOs have this in place.. and it would help test DPS builds. Unfortunately giants, mammoths, and attros aren't cutting it. Running the same dungeons over and over again taking meticulous notes on boss fights while making minor tweaks is also a pain.

The 'dummy' NPCs could be located near a town barracks, the Fighter's guild, Cyodiil, or a new zoneable area. These mobs would be lined up based on a number of criteria. The idea would be (not a new idea) to have mobs with varying health, levels, and armor/SR values. This would allow you to test any number of different builds.. customizing or tweaking gear and skills along the way. Certain dummies would give you a better idea of what to expect from a 120s sustained fight vs say a 20s burst fight.

This would cater to everyone of all levels. The casual players and the min/maxers. Use it or don't use it, the option would be there at least.

Epona222 · May 2015

NOT in towns, for goodness sake. Have some sort of lobby on the server where people can go and take their builds for testing against dummies and targets, but keep it out of the way of people wanting to actually pretend they are in an actual town - the spell spamming in towns is not so distant that I don't still remember it.

I am not against having an area for testing, but keep it WELL away from those of us who want to do our shopping, crafting, and questing. Like so we don't have to see it.

Davadin · May 2015

it's one of the item in my Housing Wish List thread.... wherever that thread may be now lol...

P3ZZL3 · May 2015

Outside of town, or, an area that is a portal/instanced where people can go. Ideally not linked to a town/area/server that has heavy traffic as it would only lag everything further.

Addihul · May 2015

Hrmm true. Now that I think of it, right in towns would be crazy. Definitely something either instanced.. possibly one of the smaller quest islands.

Alphashado · May 2015

We have been asking for target dummies for ever. The only thing we've gotten in response was a short answer to a question in one ESO LIVE episode where a dev said they might do it sometime in the future. He said that the testing dept already has target dummies that they use during development and testing.

So I'm not sure why it's so difficult to add them to the game.

crowfl56 · May 2015

just go into pvp and test it on the EP or DC

war_crescatb16_ESO · May 2015

Well they could make it an own PvP Campaign "Build-Test" with only the PvP Tutorial Grounds active.

Addihul · May 2015

crowfl56 wrote: »

just go into pvp and test it on the EP or DC

Meh..

Yolokin_Swagonborn · May 2015

Alphashado wrote: »

We have been asking for target dummies for ever. The only thing we've gotten in response was a short answer to a question in one ESO LIVE episode where a dev said they might do it sometime in the future. He said that the testing dept already has target dummies that they use during development and testing.

So I'm not sure why it's so difficult to add them to the game.

It's not difficult. That's not the issue. They don't want us to have it.

There was an NPC in eastmarch with 5 million HP, you could knock him on to a ledge and wail away on him then he would reset. It was a out of the way spot and a perfect place to test.

ZOS hotfixed it IMMEDIATELY...

I'm not talking a bug fix, that can take weeks or months to implement. High priority ASAP fix.

So why did they do this? You didn't get XP from this. There was literally no other advantage. Bigger game breaking bugs are left to frustrate players for months. Why was this one fixed insanely quickly?

ZOS doesn't want us to test the game. Or see behind the curtain. Testing the game lets us discover all the bugs and inconsistencies that ZOS has swept under the rug. This is the same reason why they are so silent on the topic of duels. Iv1 duels would let us discover how many champion point trees are essentially cosmetic and we are basically wasting our points because THEY DONT FUNCTION and were thrown together quickly.

ZOS's favorite type of player is the kind that haphazardly wacks away at enemies with a big dopey grin on his face not caring what his DPS is or if his gear is BIS. That's why the CS team caters so hard to RP'ers. Min/maxers scare ZOS. So ZOS keeps us in the dark about how this game functions to protect their inconsistent, incomplete, and often bizarre gameplay decisions. Just look at the latest templar ability bug thread if you want to go further down the rabbit hole.

Addihul · May 2015

war_crescatb16_ESO wrote: »

Well they could make it an own PvP Campaign "Build-Test" with only the PvP Tutorial Grounds active.

I would think from a continuity perspective it would need to fit in somehow with the Elder Scrolls experience. IE: A new quest, an offshoot of a new toon experience. The 'Build Test' idea would put it somewhere on the PTS server maybe. I can't imagine an area with that kind of name would fly in production.

Addihul · May 2015

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

ZOS doesn't want us to test the game. Or see behind the curtain. Testing the game lets us discover all the bugs and inconsistencies that ZOS has swept under the rug. This is the same reason why they are so silent on the topic of duels. Iv1 duels would let us discover how many champion point trees are essentially cosmetic and we are basically wasting our points because THEY DONT FUNCTION and were thrown together quickly.

Interesting thoughts. That it was mentioned at all as a possible future update leads me to believe it could one day become a reality. At least I'm hoping. Not sure if having dummy mobs would necessarily fit in to the 'greater pool' you're talking about. I mean what's there to hide with this scenario? We're just asking ZOS to provide a quicker method to do what we are already doing testing on dungeon and trial bosses.

I can't rebuttal on the 5mil hp NPC patch. I would think that would be more due to an 'oops' on their part instead of not wanting us to see under the curtain.

Valymer · May 2015

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

We have been asking for target dummies for ever. The only thing we've gotten in response was a short answer to a question in one ESO LIVE episode where a dev said they might do it sometime in the future. He said that the testing dept already has target dummies that they use during development and testing.

So I'm not sure why it's so difficult to add them to the game.

It's not difficult. That's not the issue. They don't want us to have it.

There was an NPC in eastmarch with 5 million HP, you could knock him on to a ledge and wail away on him then he would reset. It was a out of the way spot and a perfect place to test.

ZOS hotfixed it IMMEDIATELY...

I'm not talking a bug fix, that can take weeks or months to implement. High priority ASAP fix.

So why did they do this? You didn't get XP from this. There was literally no other advantage. Bigger game breaking bugs are left to frustrate players for months. Why was this one fixed insanely quickly?

ZOS doesn't want us to test the game. Or see behind the curtain. Testing the game lets us discover all the bugs and inconsistencies that ZOS has swept under the rug. This is the same reason why they are so silent on the topic of duels. Iv1 duels would let us discover how many champion point trees are essentially cosmetic and we are basically wasting our points because THEY DONT FUNCTION and were thrown together quickly.

ZOS's favorite type of player is the kind that haphazardly wacks away at enemies with a big dopey grin on his face not caring what his DPS is or if his gear is BIS. That's why the CS team caters so hard to RP'ers. Min/maxers scare ZOS. So ZOS keeps us in the dark about how this game functions to protect their inconsistent, incomplete, and often bizarre gameplay decisions. Just look at the latest templar ability bug thread if you want to go further down the rabbit hole.

Everyone should read this over and over until it sinks in. 100% spot on imo.

Grao · May 2015

Addihul wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

ZOS doesn't want us to test the game. Or see behind the curtain. Testing the game lets us discover all the bugs and inconsistencies that ZOS has swept under the rug. This is the same reason why they are so silent on the topic of duels. Iv1 duels would let us discover how many champion point trees are essentially cosmetic and we are basically wasting our points because THEY DONT FUNCTION and were thrown together quickly.

Interesting thoughts. That it was mentioned at all as a possible future update leads me to believe it could one day become a reality. At least I'm hoping. Not sure if having dummy mobs would necessarily fit in to the 'greater pool' you're talking about. I mean what's there to hide with this scenario? We're just asking ZOS to provide a quicker method to do what we are already doing testing on dungeon and trial bosses.

I can't rebuttal on the 5mil hp NPC patch. I would think that would be more due to an 'oops' on their part instead of not wanting us to see under the curtain.

You can't run extensive, very well detailed tests against bosses in dungeons as there are always external elements affecting said tests. A target dummy allows for precises testing with different builds, different gear, different distribution of champion points far more efficiently and precisely.

I agree @Yolokin_Swagonborn on this, ZOS doesn't want to give us target dummies. We've discussed this with the the community leaders in guild meetings and they all say the same, that this is one of the most required items, but that the dev team didn't get into doing it yet.

I am sorry ZOS, if this is one of the most requested items in your game and you had any intention of actually giving those to us you'd already have done. But hey, keep pushing recolored mounts in our faces, hoping we won't see past that to a game with stale content, horrible loot system and a abilities so bugged you are scared of giving your Addon Devs the ability to create good damage meters and give your player the ability to test their builds.

nastuug · May 2015

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

We have been asking for target dummies for ever. The only thing we've gotten in response was a short answer to a question in one ESO LIVE episode where a dev said they might do it sometime in the future. He said that the testing dept already has target dummies that they use during development and testing.

So I'm not sure why it's so difficult to add them to the game.

It's not difficult. That's not the issue. They don't want us to have it.

There was an NPC in eastmarch with 5 million HP, you could knock him on to a ledge and wail away on him then he would reset. It was a out of the way spot and a perfect place to test.

ZOS hotfixed it IMMEDIATELY...

I'm not talking a bug fix, that can take weeks or months to implement. High priority ASAP fix.

So why did they do this? You didn't get XP from this. There was literally no other advantage. Bigger game breaking bugs are left to frustrate players for months. Why was this one fixed insanely quickly?

ZOS doesn't want us to test the game. Or see behind the curtain. Testing the game lets us discover all the bugs and inconsistencies that ZOS has swept under the rug. This is the same reason why they are so silent on the topic of duels. Iv1 duels would let us discover how many champion point trees are essentially cosmetic and we are basically wasting our points because THEY DONT FUNCTION and were thrown together quickly.

ZOS's favorite type of player is the kind that haphazardly wacks away at enemies with a big dopey grin on his face not caring what his DPS is or if his gear is BIS. That's why the CS team caters so hard to RP'ers. Min/maxers scare ZOS. So ZOS keeps us in the dark about how this game functions to protect their inconsistent, incomplete, and often bizarre gameplay decisions. Just look at the latest templar ability bug thread if you want to go further down the rabbit hole.

@Yolokin_Swagonborn Damn son. You nailed it here!

Teiji · May 2015

Well, well, well...

Dummy mobs ay?

Sounds like they'd be rather, rather convenient.

How convenient?

Crown Store convenient.

Consumable convenient.

Cernow · May 2015

It's another item on the rather long list of features that other MMOs have and ESO doesn't.

It's unlikely to be a lore issue as target / training dummies fit right into the medieval theme. And it's unlikely to be a technical issue, since it sounds like the testing department have target dummies. It's also unlikely to be a practical issue as rooms could easily be created in the fighters and mages guild to house the dummies.

So it's a design decision. As others have suggested, it's most likely they don't want us to have this feature because if players can see the raw numbers they are more likely to realise what abilities are broken or unbalanced.

And yes I know there's addons which parse the combat logs and scroll all manner of combat numbers across the screen. But these are from live combat where conditions can't always be replicated for testing purposes. You need a target dummy for that.

Silly thing is, target dummies help the devs to balance and fix the game because players can more easily prove when there's a problem, rather than anecdotal evidence such as "someone just one-shot me in Cyrodiil with <insert overpowered ability here>".

Yukian · May 2015

It wouldn't be a lore issue, skyrim had guards in solitude practicing against dummys:o..
Personally i think it'd be a great thing to do.

Sacadon · May 2015

Target dummies have existed in the game since launch. They are in the Cyrodiil siege practice areas and respond to almost all attacks already. They probably just need their health increased and tied into the API as I don't think you get any stats from them when you attack. Eric Wrobel already confirmed they have these internally too (Wrobel Dummies). So they just need to prioritize spending some time on it.

I'd rather them fix critical game function issues first and that list is very long.

nastuug · May 2015

Yukian wrote: »

It wouldn't be a lore issue, skyrim had guards in solitude practicing against dummys:o..
Personally i think it'd be a great thing to do.

There's also guards in this game that are practicing on dummies. Can't remember what town it was in. Possibly Lion Guard Redoubt?

LEGENDARYYY · May 2015

don't worry, new pets and mounts are in the works.

Addihul · May 2015

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

don't worry, new pets and mounts are in the works.

I laughed in the kitchen so hard my family stopped what they were doing and gave me the WTF look

Yolokin_Swagonborn · May 2015

I don't want to leave this discussion on a negative note. Although many people agree with me that ZOS doesn't want us to have the ability to test our DPS, I don't want that assumption to sour the cause.

We should actively push for test dummies. There are two sides to every argument, even within ZOS. If we can know anything about ZOS, we know that their are many different opinions on game design internally. It is evidenced by the inconsistency of decisions and the knee-jerk flip-flop design changes we experience in the game.

We know that test dummies are

Not terribly complex to implement
Lore Appropriate
Something monetizable for the crown store.

We just have to show ZOS that there is a strong desire for them and the benefit (and profits) outweighs any hesitations.

We really should make this our top push right now because they would be so easy to implement and would greatly improve our gaming quality of life. This is better than pushing for "Fixing the lag" or "adding duels/arena" to the game because those things are a lot tougher to implement.

This could be whipped up in a day, a week if you wanted to make it fancy.

Valymer · May 2015

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

I don't want to leave this discussion on a negative note. Although many people agree with me that ZOS doesn't want us to have the ability to test our DPS, I don't want that assumption to sour the cause.

We should actively push for test dummies. There are two sides to every argument, even within ZOS. If we can know anything about ZOS, we know that their are many different opinions on game design internally. It is evidenced by the inconsistency of decisions and the knee-jerk flip-flop design changes we experience in the game.

We know that test dummies are
Not terribly complex to implement

Lore Appropriate

Something monetizable for the crown store.

We just have to show ZOS that there is a strong desire for them and the benefit (and profits) outweighs any hesitations.

We really should make this our top push right now because they would be so easy to implement and would greatly improve our gaming quality of life. This is better than pushing for "Fixing the lag" or "adding duels/arena" to the game because those things are a lot tougher to implement.

This could be whipped up in a day, a week if you wanted to make it fancy.

My problem with that is: why are test dummies something that we should have to pay RL money for?

That is a very slippery slope, my friend. Once ZOS starts charging us crowns for basic features that are found in virtually all MMORPGs, where does it end?

So will we have to pay crowns for character customization (changing hair color, facial features, etc.)?

What about crowns for a better group finding tool?

At what point will people refuse to pay RL money for things that should have been in the game to begin with, and simply migrate to another game where those features are included in the base price?

No. I am willing to pay RL money for mounts, costumes, etc. that are not acquirable in game by any other means. But such a fundamental, simple feature such as test dummies is not something that I can see myself paying crowns for. It should be provided to the playerbase free of charge.

pecheckler · May 2015

An addition like this could help legitimize the controversial norm of linking individual dps results in chat or discussing build effectiveness with a time to kill dummy metric. These behaviors result in fewer support, crowd control or synergy abilities being used, and I find that undesirable.

Valymer · May 2015

pecheckler wrote: »

An addition like this could help legitimize the controversial norm of linking individual dps results in chat or discussing build effectiveness with a time to kill dummy metric. These behaviors result in fewer support, crowd control or synergy abilities being used, and I find that undesirable.

The high damage that we put out in 1.6 really makes most synergies a waste of time. The best crowd control is killing the crowd quickly.

If ZOS wants us to use synergies, they need to make them more powerful. But we are already smashing the content so hard I don't see that happening.

What test dummies will do, though, is allow us to better help ZOS to fix its broken game. Why they think that to be a bad thing is anyone's guess.

helediron · May 2015

pecheckler wrote: »

An addition like this could help legitimize the controversial norm of linking individual dps results in chat or discussing build effectiveness with a time to kill dummy metric. These behaviors result in fewer support, crowd control or synergy abilities being used, and I find that undesirable.

There are people who write anything to chat the moment they hear it. Then there are people who spend weeks testing different gear and abilities. Test dummies would be a very welcomed gift to the latter. We just can't judge usefullness of things by chat behaviour. Chat is just noise.

I vote for test dummies. I would prefer them just to exist in-game. But if ZOS will make portable dummy into crown store i would certainly by it.

Septimus_Magna · May 2015

Valymer wrote: »

pecheckler wrote: »

An addition like this could help legitimize the controversial norm of linking individual dps results in chat or discussing build effectiveness with a time to kill dummy metric. These behaviors result in fewer support, crowd control or synergy abilities being used, and I find that undesirable.

The high damage that we put out in 1.6 really makes most synergies a waste of time. The best crowd control is killing the crowd quickly.

If ZOS wants us to use synergies, they need to make them more powerful. But we are already smashing the content so hard I don't see that happening.

What test dummies will do, though, is allow us to better help ZOS to fix its broken game. Why they think that to be a bad thing is anyone's guess.

Its mainly something for the tank imo, stam spears are often highly appreciated and with the undaunted passives the tank gets resources back when activating synergies. Also, synergies are very useful in organized pvp groups because its free damage/cc that also restores resources.

Valymer · May 2015

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Valymer wrote: »

pecheckler wrote: »

An addition like this could help legitimize the controversial norm of linking individual dps results in chat or discussing build effectiveness with a time to kill dummy metric. These behaviors result in fewer support, crowd control or synergy abilities being used, and I find that undesirable.

The high damage that we put out in 1.6 really makes most synergies a waste of time. The best crowd control is killing the crowd quickly.

If ZOS wants us to use synergies, they need to make them more powerful. But we are already smashing the content so hard I don't see that happening.

What test dummies will do, though, is allow us to better help ZOS to fix its broken game. Why they think that to be a bad thing is anyone's guess.

Its mainly something for the tank imo, stam spears are often highly appreciated and with the undaunted passives the tank gets resources back when activating synergies. Also, synergies are very useful in organized pvp groups because its free damage/cc that also restores resources.

Yeah, but a well-built tank won't need them for most PvE content...maybe trials or vet DSA but beyond that everything is so easy at max level with a few champion points that it really isn't worth the bother in most situations.

If it's a templar healer, then they should be throwing shards anyway if they are having time to DPS as well. And, that's a templar-only skill. What about the other classes?

I'm sure that synergies can be useful in PvP, but I don't do the organized group thing so I was talking about PvE only, sorry I guess I should have made that clearer.

RSram · May 2015

Practice your builds on the PTS server. There are plenty of mobs there to test on.

Valymer · May 2015

RSram wrote: »

Practice your builds on the PTS server. There are plenty of mods there to test on.

So download another 60 gigs just to use a test dummy? No thanks.

And is that how the PTS works anyways? I didn't think it updated in real time with your characters from the live servers.