I Passionately HATE the Experience Design of ESO

Suru · May 2015

Yea I agree, at least normal 4 man grinding would be good I suppose for the exp share. But, it could turn grinding spots into zerg spots lol 4 man vs 4man, idk who knows.

eliisra · May 2015

Agreed, the exp penalty is a nuisance. Turns complete strangers into sworn enemies lol. Basically not more than 2 players can be at a grind spot. After that exp is gone. Inviting everyone to a group, makes no difference.There's not that many good grind spots around either, about 1-2 in each zone.

It's even a problem when questing, delving or doing a dolmen and 3+ guy in the same area. Everything is dead most of the time and when you finally manage to tag something you only get 25-70% exp.

Even worse now in 1.6 when mobs melt in 1 second.

If they want to encourage us to socialize and team up, they better be a little bit more generous with the group exp.

qsnoopyjr · May 2015

Ya, you get this mentality from GW2. GW2 YOU WANT others to show up!

Traditionally MMO's, always been like this, if someone helps you, one of you gets all xp, or its split.
In Everquest, if your not grouped with someone, ONLY ONE of you gets the full xp, whoever did the most damage. IF YOUR GROUPED, you split it 50/50 and such.

I'm sure WoW works the same way as Everquest.

GW2, is just changing the MMO scene. Whether you like them or not!

Traditional, MMO, you kill a monster, you have to decide who gets the loot.
GW2, everyone gets something random.

They doing a lot of stuff, which people like, and its starting to become the norm.

Like if this game goes ahead and does DLC (as in gameplay related, like to play thieves guild, to go to a new zone, etc) for 1000 crowns... Believe me, someone is going to post a thread, "why do we have to pay crowns for DLC?"
I totally agree with that statement because every other game, gives you stuff added that you don't pay for, like EQ updates its graphics, you don't pay DLC for that, EQ adds something like anniversary event... You don't pay DLC for it.
Even GW2, it adds Dry Top map, didn't pay DLC for it. Added silverwastes and new wvw and pvp maps... Didn't pay DLC for it.
Only time I should pay is when they come out with a new expansion, I hate it when they add these tiny things not included in the expansion that you have to pay for. Like to join thieves guild, its not part of the game or the next expansion, its DLC exclusive... Screw that. So dumb.

GW2 offers LIVING STORIES, FREE. That's like a whole new zone and such. Whole new storyline and such. FREE.
How is this game going to compete with that? By making people pay for new stories? I'm sure GW2 wins that battle.

Only thing I'll gladly accept is cosmetics and cool outfits and such, but actual game stuff, nah that's crazy, put it in an expansion and I'll buy the expansion.

LtCrunch · May 2015

Brizz wrote: »

Is there an official take on this?

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

It seems that Zenimax is completely Anti-Grind based upon all the nerfs to popular spots.

I can't think of one grind that wasn't an exploit that got nerfed.

Sensesfail13 · May 2015

Couldnt agree more

eagardh_ESO · May 2015

I like to help others in open world areas or dungeons. So far no one has complained. I assumed ESO being a newer MMO would have XP system not penalize Players for working together. However, now that I know about the XP penalty I will no longer help others as I have been. I don't ever want to deprive other Players of XP they are attempting to earn.

Solo game it is then, because when a Dev Team makes XP from mob kills works like this they intend us to solo their MMO. I can draw no other reasonable conclusion from it than that.

mtwiggz · May 2015

If ZoS really wanted to promote group play the experience system would be much different.

With ESO going b2p the grinding of mobs is almost an absolute moot point. At least in any area that isn't instanced. While the instanced areas give very little experience, so thats basically a moot point as well.

I would love to see ZoS incorporate some kind of experience multiplier per person in group. To promote the grouping of multiple, or many, people to grind quests and mobs together. The more people you're with, the more experience quest turn ins and mobs give, or even just mobs. Obviously this would have to be done in a manner that doesn't highly out weigh the gain of experience as a solo player. The fact that the more people in group the less experience you get it just pathetic, and for lack of a better word - stupid.

At this point the OP is right in saying that the grouping and community aspect of ESO is more of a burden than a help. As I'm leveling an alt at this very moment, every time I see groups of two or three people enter where I am grinding mobs I am highly disappointed instead of happy to see other adventurers. This should never be the case in any MMO. Especially one that incorporates a lot of grinding.

IcyDeadPeople · May 2015

Great posts, @Brizz and @drschplatt , I've had similar experiences leveling.

newtinmpls · May 2015

TomasZee wrote: »

I would go even further and say much of the game is designed in such a way as to make people hate other players. For example the fact that loot from chests and resource nodes can only be taken by one person. This makes me actively avoid places with more people or cooperating with them as then I have to freaking fight over every resource node and chest. In dungeons you have people running ahead and not helping others just to check whether there is no chest they can get. This design is so stupid I have no words. It is definitely anti social and makes people aviod others and makes me hate the sight of another player in my vicinity.

Apparently I'm just randomly meeting nicer people - in recent delves/dungeons with strangers I've had long pauses/chat/emote things where everyone stood back 'cause they figured it was someone else's 'turn'.

dodgehopper_ESO · May 2015

This is actually something I think the Devs are aware of. I'm pretty sure at the Quake Con video I saw, that they actually had said they were planning to address some of the grouping concerns. Part of that had to do with adjusting the leveling of dungeons, but I had thought they had planned more in terms of scaling between players, or sharing elements of other people's mission for the purpose of teaming with them. If they did half these things, I believe it would go a long way toward helping teaming in the game. I've leveled all the important characters on my account, and I'd love to be able to scale down to a low level friend to help them accomplish their stories, and still earn CP. The big flaw in the system is that the only way I can team with some friends is PVP. This isn't such a big deal to me, since PVP is my favorite thing, but I DO have friends going back many years from other games who are not PVP folks. It'd be nice to be able to help those people without essentially earning nothing for doing so. I know this doesn't relate exactly to the issues of teaming that the OP is talking about, but I do think it relates to grouping as a whole.

Brizz · May 2015

WHERE ARE YOU ZENIMAX?? Are you afraid to answer the question on this thread?? I have seen it so many times and it is THE MOST FRUSTRATING PART OF YOUR GAME caps. You are losing players because of problems like this, and I'm sure even more for ignoring us.

Elloa · May 2015

The reason why Zenimax nerfed the grind wasn't because players felt forced to grind to level up instead of playing and enjoying the game and were complaining that it was too boring to be forced to grind? Just asking

Now people are complaining they can't grind. Before they were complaining they had to grind. This make no sense!

EQBallzz · May 2015

Elloa wrote: »

The reason why Zenimax nerfed the grind wasn't because players felt forced to grind to level up instead of playing and enjoying the game and were complaining that it was too boring to be forced to grind? Just asking

Now people are complaining they can't grind. Before they were complaining they had to grind. This make no sense!

People have different preferences. Some like questing but others hate it. Some prefer to just kill mobs and grind but others hate it. Some people could care less about either of those and just want to PvP. This is why you have people complaining on both ends of the argument and it's precisely the reason why they need to make *all* activities viable for XP gain. They don't have to be exactly equal but should all be viable (in the same ballpark) and currently that is not the case.

Elloa · May 2015

EQBallzz wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

The reason why Zenimax nerfed the grind wasn't because players felt forced to grind to level up instead of playing and enjoying the game and were complaining that it was too boring to be forced to grind? Just asking

Now people are complaining they can't grind. Before they were complaining they had to grind. This make no sense!

People have different preferences. Some like questing but others hate it. Some prefer to just kill mobs and grind but others hate it. Some people could care less about either of those and just want to PvP. This is why you have people complaining on both ends of the argument and it's precisely the reason why they need to make *all* activities viable for XP gain. They don't have to be exactly equal but should all be viable (in the same ballpark) and currently that is not the case.

I don't disagree with you. There should be more than one way to enjoy ESO, and if people enjoy to explore - adventure -kill mobs (I love do quest but I also enjoy to explore freely) this should be avalaible for players. Problem with increasing the XP awarded by just killing mobs, will create a disbalance for players doing the quest and killing mobs in same time, and those players will overlevel the content in no time. Which is also something very annoying when you are a completionist and want to do everything. I've already find myself overleveling the content with that xp nerf on non quest content, to the point where I'm exclusively playing in grey areas which is very boring cause it gives no loot.

This is a very complexe issue.

EQBallzz · May 2015

Elloa wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

The reason why Zenimax nerfed the grind wasn't because players felt forced to grind to level up instead of playing and enjoying the game and were complaining that it was too boring to be forced to grind? Just asking

Now people are complaining they can't grind. Before they were complaining they had to grind. This make no sense!

People have different preferences. Some like questing but others hate it. Some prefer to just kill mobs and grind but others hate it. Some people could care less about either of those and just want to PvP. This is why you have people complaining on both ends of the argument and it's precisely the reason why they need to make *all* activities viable for XP gain. They don't have to be exactly equal but should all be viable (in the same ballpark) and currently that is not the case.

I don't disagree with you. There should be more than one way to enjoy ESO, and if people enjoy to explore - adventure -kill mobs (I love do quest but I also enjoy to explore freely) this should be avalaible for players. Problem with increasing the XP awarded by just killing mobs, will create a disbalance for players doing the quest and killing mobs in same time, and those players will overlevel the content in no time. Which is also something very annoying when you are a completionist and want to do everything. I've already find myself overleveling the content with that xp nerf on non quest content, to the point where I'm exclusively playing in grey areas which is very boring cause it gives no loot.

This is a very complexe issue.

Not really. The choice is up to you. If you like quests you can do the quests and not out level them with grinding. If you hate quests you can grind and won't care if you out level the quests. If you like both you can quest first until you run out of silver/gold and then grind/explore after. Choice is good.

Elloa · May 2015

EQBallzz wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

The reason why Zenimax nerfed the grind wasn't because players felt forced to grind to level up instead of playing and enjoying the game and were complaining that it was too boring to be forced to grind? Just asking

Now people are complaining they can't grind. Before they were complaining they had to grind. This make no sense!

People have different preferences. Some like questing but others hate it. Some prefer to just kill mobs and grind but others hate it. Some people could care less about either of those and just want to PvP. This is why you have people complaining on both ends of the argument and it's precisely the reason why they need to make *all* activities viable for XP gain. They don't have to be exactly equal but should all be viable (in the same ballpark) and currently that is not the case.

I don't disagree with you. There should be more than one way to enjoy ESO, and if people enjoy to explore - adventure -kill mobs (I love do quest but I also enjoy to explore freely) this should be avalaible for players. Problem with increasing the XP awarded by just killing mobs, will create a disbalance for players doing the quest and killing mobs in same time, and those players will overlevel the content in no time. Which is also something very annoying when you are a completionist and want to do everything. I've already find myself overleveling the content with that xp nerf on non quest content, to the point where I'm exclusively playing in grey areas which is very boring cause it gives no loot.

This is a very complexe issue.

Not really. The choice is up to you. If you like quests you can do the quests and not out level them with grinding. If you hate quests you can grind and won't care if you out level the quests. If you like both you can quest first until you run out of silver/gold and then grind/explore after. Choice is good.

If you are speaking specifically about post Veteran content, then yes.
I'll explain you my issue while leveling... I was doing all quest of the zones, all delves, all dark anchor and world bosses several times, group Dungeon, public Dungeon, sometimes Cyrodiil etc...Basically I've been doing everything doable, following my moods. As result, I started to seriously over level the content, I had sometimes 7 level of differences! While I'm not against the possibility to grind, I also would like to have the possibility to block XP or to Reduce XP gains to avoid this kind of situation where you gain level too fast for your taste. There is a Mara ring. Couldn't we have a Block XP ring aswell?

EQBallzz · May 2015

Elloa wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

The reason why Zenimax nerfed the grind wasn't because players felt forced to grind to level up instead of playing and enjoying the game and were complaining that it was too boring to be forced to grind? Just asking

Now people are complaining they can't grind. Before they were complaining they had to grind. This make no sense!

People have different preferences. Some like questing but others hate it. Some prefer to just kill mobs and grind but others hate it. Some people could care less about either of those and just want to PvP. This is why you have people complaining on both ends of the argument and it's precisely the reason why they need to make *all* activities viable for XP gain. They don't have to be exactly equal but should all be viable (in the same ballpark) and currently that is not the case.

I don't disagree with you. There should be more than one way to enjoy ESO, and if people enjoy to explore - adventure -kill mobs (I love do quest but I also enjoy to explore freely) this should be avalaible for players. Problem with increasing the XP awarded by just killing mobs, will create a disbalance for players doing the quest and killing mobs in same time, and those players will overlevel the content in no time. Which is also something very annoying when you are a completionist and want to do everything. I've already find myself overleveling the content with that xp nerf on non quest content, to the point where I'm exclusively playing in grey areas which is very boring cause it gives no loot.

This is a very complexe issue.

Not really. The choice is up to you. If you like quests you can do the quests and not out level them with grinding. If you hate quests you can grind and won't care if you out level the quests. If you like both you can quest first until you run out of silver/gold and then grind/explore after. Choice is good.

If you are speaking specifically about post Veteran content, then yes.
I'll explain you my issue while leveling... I was doing all quest of the zones, all delves, all dark anchor and world bosses several times, group Dungeon, public Dungeon, sometimes Cyrodiil etc...Basically I've been doing everything doable, following my moods. As result, I started to seriously over level the content, I had sometimes 7 level of differences! While I'm not against the possibility to grind, I also would like to have the possibility to block XP or to Reduce XP gains to avoid this kind of situation where you gain level too fast for your taste. There is a Mara ring. Couldn't we have a Block XP ring aswell?

Blocking XP would mechanically be the same as doing content with an over leveled character. You won't get any XP. So just do the grey content and pretend you have XP blocking on.

I am leveling up my third vet character and I do all content as well. I don't skip anything and I'm not that over-leveled (only slightly). I'm not sure why/how you are so over-leveled if you are not grinding. It's definitely worse than it used to be but I'm not having any over-leveled issues (yet). My character is just VR4 atm so maybe it will get worse but I'll have to wait and see.

Elloa · May 2015

EQBallzz wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

The reason why Zenimax nerfed the grind wasn't because players felt forced to grind to level up instead of playing and enjoying the game and were complaining that it was too boring to be forced to grind? Just asking

Now people are complaining they can't grind. Before they were complaining they had to grind. This make no sense!

People have different preferences. Some like questing but others hate it. Some prefer to just kill mobs and grind but others hate it. Some people could care less about either of those and just want to PvP. This is why you have people complaining on both ends of the argument and it's precisely the reason why they need to make *all* activities viable for XP gain. They don't have to be exactly equal but should all be viable (in the same ballpark) and currently that is not the case.

I don't disagree with you. There should be more than one way to enjoy ESO, and if people enjoy to explore - adventure -kill mobs (I love do quest but I also enjoy to explore freely) this should be avalaible for players. Problem with increasing the XP awarded by just killing mobs, will create a disbalance for players doing the quest and killing mobs in same time, and those players will overlevel the content in no time. Which is also something very annoying when you are a completionist and want to do everything. I've already find myself overleveling the content with that xp nerf on non quest content, to the point where I'm exclusively playing in grey areas which is very boring cause it gives no loot.

This is a very complexe issue.

Not really. The choice is up to you. If you like quests you can do the quests and not out level them with grinding. If you hate quests you can grind and won't care if you out level the quests. If you like both you can quest first until you run out of silver/gold and then grind/explore after. Choice is good.

If you are speaking specifically about post Veteran content, then yes.
I'll explain you my issue while leveling... I was doing all quest of the zones, all delves, all dark anchor and world bosses several times, group Dungeon, public Dungeon, sometimes Cyrodiil etc...Basically I've been doing everything doable, following my moods. As result, I started to seriously over level the content, I had sometimes 7 level of differences! While I'm not against the possibility to grind, I also would like to have the possibility to block XP or to Reduce XP gains to avoid this kind of situation where you gain level too fast for your taste. There is a Mara ring. Couldn't we have a Block XP ring aswell?

Blocking XP would mechanically be the same as doing content with an over leveled character. You won't get any XP. So just do the grey content and pretend you have XP blocking on.

I am leveling up my third vet character and I do all content as well. I don't skip anything and I'm not that over-leveled (only slightly). I'm not sure why/how you are so over-leveled if you are not grinding. It's definitely worse than it used to be but I'm not having any over-leveled issues (yet). My character is just VR4 atm so maybe it will get worse but I'll have to wait and see.

There is several interest to block Xp:
- Countinuing to have loot
- Staying in range of x friend or guildmate that play less
- Being able to complete all stories and quest of your level without outleveling the content (it get too easy etc)
- Being able to stay in the non Vet Cyrodiil campaign

Regarding outleveling, I think it happen very fast once you are doing various activities. I'm playing a lot with my guild and I've done each dungeons at least 4, 5 times while leveling (prior the level scaling), done lots of World Boss- Public Dungeon-Dark Anchor event, or Cyrodiil adventures events. I've been leveling slowly, but I was always, always several level above my quest area and my story quest (prior it scale to the player level)
Today, on my main character I'm level Vet12, and still doing cadwell Silver.
On my alts I'm both level 30 and have not started Rivenspire (3d zone) yet.

Lionxoft · May 2015

@Brizz I took a break for ESO for a bit because of this reason amongst others and played a couple other games. It seems that it's a trend for MMOs to streamline the leveling after they launch and it's usually to hide the fact that the game is lacking endgame content or the introduction of significant systems early on in it's lifespan.

It seems the trend is for the main questline to be the means of leveling. Once that is completed then it is either calculated to put you at max level upon completion or shortly after while another method automatically jumps you to max level. Granted, this wouldn't work in ESO with just the main story since it is good however so noticeably short. The main quest lines for each zone as a means of leveling to 50 would help alleviate the burden a bit. I don't address veteran ranks since they have absolutely no place in the game.

Davadin · May 2015

i used to wonder... well... still wondering....

what exactly is everyone's issue with levelling? why do you even need to grind? do you dislike quest? is it because you have alt(s) that u dont want to repeat the experience?

i play casually with ONE character and just by doing caldwells and all the main quests and every other quests that happened to cross my path, i got VR13 by end of caldwell gold. and it was great. zero grinding. and even a little bit of pvp.

Lionxoft · May 2015

Davadin wrote: »

i used to wonder... well... still wondering....

what exactly is everyone's issue with levelling? why do you even need to grind? do you dislike quest? is it because you have alt(s) that u dont want to repeat the experience?

i play casually with ONE character and just by doing caldwells and all the main quests and every other quests that happened to cross my path, i got VR13 by end of caldwell gold. and it was great. zero grinding. and even a little bit of pvp.

After completing the questing/leveling experience 100% on a main character it's extremely tedious to do it again as an alt character since it's all repeat content to make up for the fact that the game has very little end game content. It doesn't matter which alliance or class you choose it's going to be the same storyline experience so there's not much reason to do it all again.