Merciful means of questing.

JWKe · May 2015

Kalman wrote: »

In all honesty, I think you are playing the wrong type of game if you are a pacifist. I'm actually a little confused on why you would have thought this was a good game for you (as a pacifist). Not all entertainment is intended for everyone. I don't like Rap/Hip Hop so I don't listen to it. I don't like the premise behind a multitude of games so I don't play them. I don't like Orange is the New Black so I don't watch it. What I don't do in any of those instances is ask the artist/business responsible for that content to change it so it suits me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzhyLuXzNZY

Lol PlotJutsu.

nordsavage · May 2015

This is an MMO where quest are combat driven. If you don't kill all those enemies you lose all that exp/champion exp. Plus you lose out on loot and collectibles.

SHADOW2KK · May 2015

Gahurkaness wrote: »

Okay, this is getting silly. Props to the people who actually contributed progressive ideas, which was the point of this thread to begin with. As for the rest of you, I really don't care if you think it fits into the lore, or if you think if fits with a certain cinematic trailer, and I most defintly don't care if you think that there is a need to argue about things that lie completly outside the original post, which was to collect CONSTRUCTIVE feedback on the idea of an alternate progression system.
I wish I hadn't mentioned the pacifist thing - it was merely an attempt to explain why I felt motivated to suggest something that adds and doesn't take away to a fake world, aka a videogame. I did so in the attempt to avoid pointless arguing and assuming about things that does nothing constructive for the idea itself.

Had I known that the exact oposite would happen, then I had not bothered to explain anything beyond the game mechanic idea at all. That is all that is relevant to me. Now that you know this, kindly stop being nonsensical. Like I said right from the get go, the point is to collect feedback of the idea - constructive feedback that is useful to the idea itself, which I should have clarified.

Your personal philosophies could not interest me less.

And yet you still posted your OP and this post too, for someone of pacifist tendencies, this post is very passive agressive:P

Just saying.........

To a extent maybe a alternative series of skills or w/e could be incorporated for the ummm "pacifist" element in the game, but why stop there, maybe when you run somewhere, you are killing things.

The game is based round death, Daedric invasion, 3-way Alliance War, the game world is violent, as is our world.

Violence happens, it is not as though the game world denizens are highly evolved creatures, or w/e.

It is what it is, and this is a MMO with Elder Scrolls flavouring IMO, and have played the TES games since Morrowind, where there was a lot more choice in how you done things.

Me, I am ruthless, if you are a enemy, you die.

Maybe a alternative progression system could be implemented, but um what about certain unavoidable facts like, Molag Bal gets lit up, or killing Daedric thingies at dolmens, it is still killing.

Pacifism is all highly noble, but you cannot make a wolf go away by feeding it another sheep.

It is unrealistic, if you were to knock out loads of hostiles, exactly what is the point, they wake up, they are back in circulation again.

Never leave live enemies behind you, they cause problems later on...

Hehe.

Edit, you mentioned that you do not care about peoples personal philosophies, yet make out you are open to discussion?

Make up your mind.

Your whole OP was your personal philosophy, and aimed at a minimal at best IMO player base within a game that is mostly about killing.

To antagonise people saying you do not care basically about their opinion yet invite discussion, you are always gonna get people who disagree with you.

Would say play Pacman, but you eat stuff in that....

If you are gonna play at being pacifist, then do not be aggressive/passive aggressive with your posts.

anitajoneb17_ESO · May 2015

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

The game is based round death, Daedric invasion, 3-way Alliance War, the game world is violent, as is our world.

Are you kidding me ? Wanna compare Tamriel with IRL World ?? Lol !!! You're loosing some sense of proportions here.

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Your whole OP was your personal philosophy, and aimed at a minimal at best IMO player base within a game that is mostly about killing.

OP was not about a personal philosophy, it was about a roleplay option within the game. It's not about whether it's good or not to be a pacifist in general, IRL or in any environment. Is it that hard to understand ? Your charachter is not YOU-IN-GAME, it's your character, full stop.

It's an MMORPG, where R stands for ROLE and P for PLAYING.

And just because this option is different from the mainstream "let's go kill mobs" option, it's not aimed nor aggressive towards the playerbase nor anyone.

nastuug · May 2015

Play the economy mini-game. I hear it involves no killing.

SHADOW2KK · May 2015

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

The game is based round death, Daedric invasion, 3-way Alliance War, the game world is violent, as is our world.

Are you kidding me ? Wanna compare Tamriel with IRL World ?? Lol !!! You're loosing some sense of proportions here.

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Your whole OP was your personal philosophy, and aimed at a minimal at best IMO player base within a game that is mostly about killing.

OP was not about a personal philosophy, it was about a roleplay option within the game. It's not about whether it's good or not to be a pacifist in general, IRL or in any environment. Is it that hard to understand ? Your charachter is not YOU-IN-GAME, it's your character, full stop.

It's an MMORPG, where R stands for ROLE and P for PLAYING.

And just because this option is different from the mainstream "let's go kill mobs" option, it's not aimed nor aggressive towards the playerbase nor anyone.

Well I would have thought it was obvious, but our world is violent also, I was not saying there is a demonic invasion or anything here, and the fact that you wanted to troll such a thing is amazing.

I was making the similarity in terms of scope to our world and the game world, pacifism does not and never has worked.

And um how it is not his personal philosophy?, arguably he thought of all this and then done his original post, cos he does not like killing things and wants the game to change to suit him, how does that not make it personal?

And agree with you on the RP aspects of the game, it is how you wanna play it, what is your point?, I never said i had a problem about implementing mechanics into the game to cater for that way of thinking.

Try reading and learning to spell before having a go at me, considering my post was my opinion and discussing his post with OP< not you.

anitajoneb17_ESO · May 2015

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

I was making the similarity in terms of scope to our world and the game world, pacifism does not and never has worked.

And I was stating that this "similarity" is :
1/ totally inappropriate
2/ entirely your opinion and no "truth" at all.

Why come with "pacifism does - or doesn't- work" when the question is "how to play a pacifist in ESO ?"

SHADOW2KK · May 2015

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

I was making the similarity in terms of scope to our world and the game world, pacifism does not and never has worked.

And I was stating that this "similarity" is :
1/ totally inappropriate
2/ entirely your opinion and no "truth" at all.

Why come with "pacifism does - or doesn't- work" when the question is "how to play a pacifist in ESO ?"

Well you are still completely wrong in your assumptions about what I meant, and that is your opinion as well.

Because pacifism as a rule does not work, period...

For your argument to work either in game or in real life, pacifism to work, then both worlds would be utopia and heaven.

They are not = fact, truth does not care about opinions, it is just fact.j

So again you are wrong in your inane arguments once again.

The question "how to play as a pacifist in ESO", is subject to certain laws and game mechanics in the game, which has some loose parallels in real life, as in pacifism does not work.

The game revolves round death, and if you had even bothered to read what I said, I stated that that I would not mind mechanics being put in place to cater for that type of gameplay, so again learn to read.

ie kiling daedric thingies at dolmens, or indeed killing Molag Bal itself, hardly a act of pacifism.

You can only knock so many out, instead of killing them, and I was under the impression that pacifist means one who does not fight and only believes in peace, so even if hand to hand was implemented and the choice to kill or not was in there, and you could knock enemies out, then it would still be violent.
So even if you could RP as a pacifist in the game, which I personally have no problem with, the game is violent by nature, and the things you do for the greater good is violent.

So this is entirely ,my opinion and no truth at all?

What world do you live on?:P

And your opinion of what I think of being inappropriate or wrong, is of monumental inconsequence to me, really.

Pacifism although a noble concept does not work.

Hardly opinion, where the proof is everywhere that it does not work.

/facepalm

mtwiggz · May 2015

Today I chose the wrong choice in a quest, which led to some poor mans execution. I ran away before I had to witness the mayhem.

What really bugs me is no matter what choices you make in a quest it doesn't have any impact on the actual game play. You might have to do a bit extra, someone might die, etc. but it doesn't change what actually happens in game - at all. Saddens my soul.

Sandmanninja · May 2015

I'm pretty sure the OP meant this question to be in a semi-Role Playing point of view.
Quest Giver: "Go find out what Go-thug knows about the deal going down tonight"
you go to Go-thug's house, ask him about it. He gets mad and starts attacking.
You take the hilt of your sword and whack his noggin'. He falls down, subdued but alive.
You search his pockets and then rifle his desk and dressers.
You return to quest giver with info you found.
Same result.

Just add "Toggle Knock-Out: True/False" in the game control.
when the guy's health gets to 25%, an option comes up (JUST like when fighting NPCs that you have to press E to USE a quest item), and you have a 50-50 chance of knocking them out instead of killing them.

BigM · May 2015

I wonder how do you feel about having to kill the spirits that were already killed once?

Hey someone had to ask him. :-D

mcurley · May 2015

Davadin wrote: »

mcurley wrote: »

Cool idea, OP. I would like to be able to finish at a few of the quest lines without having to kill also.

Killing random bandits doesn't affect me but sometimes I feel slightly bad for killing the random packs of wolves or other wild animals that attack me as I run through their lands. I wish after a certain level difference between my hero and the animals that they would simply stop trying.

I'm just trying to run to that Skyshard over there... I'm 18 levels higher and don't want your hide... stop trying to kill me.

LOTRO had this. 10 levels or beyond, you're pretty much invisible to them.

Problem is, it is VERY MUCH immersion-breaking.

Cave full of giant trolls?

Nope. You're not there.

Swamp full of deadly wasps and dragons??

Nada. Just keep walking.

Ancient civilization with zombies???!?!?!?!

Go ahead. Make funny faces. Or sit down, camp, cook something before you keep going.

Yea, EQ2 had something of the like as well. As far as immersion breaking... I can see how some people wouldn't like the scenarios that you brought up but immersion is pretty far off anyway... why do these aggressive wolves attack me but not the bunnies hopping around, or the defenseless deer? Why is it okay for the wolves to walk right by an equal level crocodile but if I walk by it attacks... not very immersive overall.

Davadin · May 2015

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

I was making the similarity in terms of scope to our world and the game world, pacifism does not and never has worked.

And I was stating that this "similarity" is :
1/ totally inappropriate
2/ entirely your opinion and no "truth" at all.

Why come with "pacifism does - or doesn't- work" when the question is "how to play a pacifist in ESO ?"

Well you are still completely wrong in your assumptions about what I meant, and that is your opinion as well.

Because pacifism as a rule does not work, period...

For your argument to work either in game or in real life, pacifism to work, then both worlds would be utopia and heaven.

They are not = fact, truth does not care about opinions, it is just fact.j

So again you are wrong in your inane arguments once again.

The question "how to play as a pacifist in ESO", is subject to certain laws and game mechanics in the game, which has some loose parallels in real life, as in pacifism does not work.

The game revolves round death, and if you had even bothered to read what I said, I stated that that I would not mind mechanics being put in place to cater for that type of gameplay, so again learn to read.

ie kiling daedric thingies at dolmens, or indeed killing Molag Bal itself, hardly a act of pacifism.

You can only knock so many out, instead of killing them, and I was under the impression that pacifist means one who does not fight and only believes in peace, so even if hand to hand was implemented and the choice to kill or not was in there, and you could knock enemies out, then it would still be violent.
So even if you could RP as a pacifist in the game, which I personally have no problem with, the game is violent by nature, and the things you do for the greater good is violent.

So this is entirely ,my opinion and no truth at all?

What world do you live on?:P

And your opinion of what I think of being inappropriate or wrong, is of monumental inconsequence to me, really.

Pacifism although a noble concept does not work.

Hardly opinion, where the proof is everywhere that it does not work.

/facepalm

How about Deus Ex: Human Revolution?

What's so wrong about having a different - less violent - way to play?

What's with all the psychological/philosophical seminar?

SHADOW2KK · May 2015

Davadin wrote: »

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

I was making the similarity in terms of scope to our world and the game world, pacifism does not and never has worked.

And I was stating that this "similarity" is :
1/ totally inappropriate
2/ entirely your opinion and no "truth" at all.

Why come with "pacifism does - or doesn't- work" when the question is "how to play a pacifist in ESO ?"

Well you are still completely wrong in your assumptions about what I meant, and that is your opinion as well.

Because pacifism as a rule does not work, period...

For your argument to work either in game or in real life, pacifism to work, then both worlds would be utopia and heaven.

They are not = fact, truth does not care about opinions, it is just fact.j

So again you are wrong in your inane arguments once again.

The question "how to play as a pacifist in ESO", is subject to certain laws and game mechanics in the game, which has some loose parallels in real life, as in pacifism does not work.

The game revolves round death, and if you had even bothered to read what I said, I stated that that I would not mind mechanics being put in place to cater for that type of gameplay, so again learn to read.

ie kiling daedric thingies at dolmens, or indeed killing Molag Bal itself, hardly a act of pacifism.

You can only knock so many out, instead of killing them, and I was under the impression that pacifist means one who does not fight and only believes in peace, so even if hand to hand was implemented and the choice to kill or not was in there, and you could knock enemies out, then it would still be violent.
So even if you could RP as a pacifist in the game, which I personally have no problem with, the game is violent by nature, and the things you do for the greater good is violent.

So this is entirely ,my opinion and no truth at all?

What world do you live on?:P

And your opinion of what I think of being inappropriate or wrong, is of monumental inconsequence to me, really.

Pacifism although a noble concept does not work.

Hardly opinion, where the proof is everywhere that it does not work.

/facepalm

How about Deus Ex: Human Revolution?

What's so wrong about having a different - less violent - way to play?

What's with all the psychological/philosophical seminar?

Deus Ex games were brilliant, cannot wait for new one:}

Exactly as you said, less violent way to play is fine, but pacifism is not fighting at all, and I was making the point that pacifism although wondrously noble does not work.

And I have said a few times now that I do not mind this being implemented into this game to cater for that way of playing, I have just said that it does not work ultimately, the game revolves round death.

idk · May 2015

This is a game about fighting devil before it takes over the known world. Molag Bal isn't interested in being reformed (sorry if that is a spoiler). The most passive means to contain his threat is to destroy him. There are no other options.

BTW. There is a passive means to level up. Doing crafting writs though it is appropriately slow. However, to get a decent number of skill points questing the world for shards and completing quests that require fighting is appropriately required.

SHADOW2KK · May 2015

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

This is a game about fighting devil before it takes over the known world. Molag Bal isn't interested in being reformed (sorry if that is a spoiler). The most passive means to contain his threat is to destroy him. There are no other options.

Some things you just need to kill hehe

kodo · May 2015

men,this game is not for u...if your'e a pacifict you just won't find reason in it,cause this game involves lots of killing..and imo it gets more and more as long as u progress.what i recommend u is the following:
use harvens quest journal to help keep track of every quest happening,than you'll find enough reasons to kill .
also, slow down on quests.once u do 1-2 quests a day,it's actually great and you'll find many good reasons to kill..

Cernow · May 2015

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Deus Ex games were brilliant, cannot wait for new one:}

Exactly as you said, less violent way to play is fine, but pacifism is not fighting at all, and I was making the point that pacifism although wondrously noble does not work.

And I have said a few times now that I do not mind this being implemented into this game to cater for that way of playing, I have just said that it does not work ultimately, the game revolves round death.

The use of the word "pacifist" by the OP seems to have totally derailed most of this thread, because everyone seems to have latched onto that and won't let it drop. It's in the thread title, so it's no surprise.

A better term for what is being requested is "non lethal".

Non lethal combat means you still fight when you have to, but wherever possible you knock out, incapacitate, capture or arrest your opponent.

Obviously much of the story is about fighting daedra, demons, undead and all manner of other nasty opponents who aren't likely to listen to reason or be vulnerable to non lethal methods. So those will need to be killed.

But then there are plenty of quests where you are just helping people, investigating a crime, fixing this and that, infiltrating, finding secret documents etc etc. In many cases these really don't need to descend into a full-on bloodbath, but usually they do even if the player tries to avoid it because of the way the game is designed.

For example, you've been asked to find some secret plans in an enemy camp. But because of the way sneaking works and where the quest items are placed, before you know it you've been forced into combat and end up knee deep in corpses. So those secret documents about what the occupants of the camp were planning are now irrelevant because you've slaughtered the entire camp anyway. But the quest giver ignores this fact and politely thanks you anyway.

These are the sorts of quests I feel the OP was referring to and some additional non-lethal methods of completing them would be very welcome.

SHADOW2KK · May 2015

Cernow wrote: »

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Deus Ex games were brilliant, cannot wait for new one:}

Exactly as you said, less violent way to play is fine, but pacifism is not fighting at all, and I was making the point that pacifism although wondrously noble does not work.

And I have said a few times now that I do not mind this being implemented into this game to cater for that way of playing, I have just said that it does not work ultimately, the game revolves round death.

The use of the word "pacifist" by the OP seems to have totally derailed most of this thread, because everyone seems to have latched onto that and won't let it drop. It's in the thread title, so it's no surprise.

A better term for what is being requested is "non lethal".

Non lethal combat means you still fight when you have to, but wherever possible you knock out, incapacitate, capture or arrest your opponent.

Obviously much of the story is about fighting daedra, demons, undead and all manner of other nasty opponents who aren't likely to listen to reason or be vulnerable to non lethal methods. So those will need to be killed.

But then there are plenty of quests where you are just helping people, investigating a crime, fixing this and that, infiltrating, finding secret documents etc etc. In many cases these really don't need to descend into a full-on bloodbath, but usually they do even if the player tries to avoid it because of the way the game is designed.

For example, you've been asked to find some secret plans in an enemy camp. But because of the way sneaking works and where the quest items are placed, before you know it you've been forced into combat and end up knee deep in corpses. So those secret documents about what the occupants of the camp were planning are now irrelevant because you've slaughtered the entire camp anyway. But the quest giver ignores this fact and politely thanks you anyway.

These are the sorts of quests I feel the OP was referring to and some additional non-lethal methods of completing them would be very welcome.

Exactly, being a pacifist means non violence, which does not work at all. even on knockdowns you are using violence, it is just a sliding scale.

And a more less violent approach although not my personal style should be implemented for those who like to play like that as I have said before in thread.

Me, I am ruthless, enemies should be killed, unless it is on a covert sorta mission where non lethal knockdowns or even a pure ghost operation can be done, hehe.

But bang on sir

anitajoneb17_ESO · May 2015

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

This is a game about fighting devil before it takes over the known world. Molag Bal isn't interested in being reformed (sorry if that is a spoiler). The most passive means to contain his threat is to destroy him. There are no other options.

Some things you just need to kill hehe

Worst possible example actually. Molag Bal (just like any other daedric creature) is actually UNDEAD, which means either immortable or already dead :-) We do not "kill them", we just send them back to Oblivion, and they have to be re-summoned to be able to set foot again on Nirn (unless they use special portal like dark anchors, but even then they have to be summoned and that is why Molag Bal needed Mannimarco and the Worm Cult as allies).

Meridia in her realm explains that to us : we have not killed Molag Bal, just chased him away for a while.

Besides, the OP never asked for a gameplay of "not killing anyone", but for "not killing innocents", in other words, for more RP aspects, more complex moral options and a gameplay more subtle than just "let's kill everything glowing red".

SHADOW2KK · May 2015

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

This is a game about fighting devil before it takes over the known world. Molag Bal isn't interested in being reformed (sorry if that is a spoiler). The most passive means to contain his threat is to destroy him. There are no other options.

Some things you just need to kill hehe

Worst possible example actually. Molag Bal (just like any other daedric creature) is actually UNDEAD, which means either immortable or already dead :-) We do not "kill them", we just send them back to Oblivion, and they have to be re-summoned to be able to set foot again on Nirn (unless they use special portal like dark anchors, but even then they have to be summoned and that is why Molag Bal needed Mannimarco and the Worm Cult as allies).

Meridia in her realm explains that to us : we have not killed Molag Bal, just chased him away for a while.

Besides, the OP never asked for a gameplay of "not killing anyone", but for "not killing innocents", in other words, for more RP aspects, more complex moral options and a gameplay more subtle than just "let's kill everything glowing red".

By "immortable" I am assuming you mean immortal aye?:P

And in context to your point then yeah fair enough, personally I got not problem at all killing threats, but the game misses the more moral choices from the TES games, where I actually in a lot of cases cared and the moral issues of the games were more pronounced.

Arguably you are not really killing anything else either, as the souls of the slain go to Coldharbour anyways, just like Daedra.

I as said a few times, do not mind a non lethal system put in play for the peeps who wanna play like that, but to mislabel it as pacifist is why I got involved in this thread in first place, a pacifist is one who employs peaceful measures, and practises non violence.

And as I have said, pacifism does not work in this game, as it is noble but wondrously impractical.

A non lethal thing would be good for a number of people however.

Gahurkaness · May 2015

Thanks again for the constructive replies

Especially those who understood that choices that matters are what made games like the elder scrolls famous so long ago.
To all the rest of you, I describe the point of this thread in the original post. If it's being obfuscated by unneccessary presumptions or preconceived ideas of "should", then that's not my fault.
I also never said that playing pacifist, which a few of you actually understood, is my preferred style of playing. Not did I use the word to it's absolute meaning and extent.
Combat is fun, no doubt about it. It's the balancing act that matters. Some games makes combat a thing that occurs at plot points or certain choices, as a vehicle to progress the story - and the story is what drives a game of choices, and choices are what made the TES games what they are.

Having it being the solution to nine out of ten problems and cramming it in for the sake of a quest, rather than meaningfully advance the story, simply wears it out. Also, anybody who cares about stories applies values from their real lives into it. That is natural. Don't analyze it, as that won't lead anywhere. And I simply don't feel like killing relentlessly as a universal solution is something that fits into my values. As simple as that.

People have a tendence to not understand, just THINK that they do, based entierly on their idea of what is correct - their mental reality. I think we'd all learn a lot more by NOT putting everything others say in a basket and then slap a post-it on it that says "this is this" - so please. Take what I type to you for what it is, not what you interpret is as. If you don't understand, ask. I'm happy to make things clear, as long as we can keep it nice and free of assumptions and pre-conceptions.

Gahurkaness · May 2015

retyler3_ESO wrote: »

Gahurkaness wrote: »

Many of the quests seems to derail into killing many, many people who didn't really deserve it. This doesn't sit well with me, who am a bit of a pacifist and believer in reason to begin with. I also like to be the hero of the story. But because of this, I simply aren't.

So what I'm trying to do here is to gather you guys to share ideas about how to successfully implement alternate paths of advancements through quests that does not involve killing people - or at least not killing those that are not vital to the story. We got stealth and disguises, let's work from that.

Also, wouldn't it be cool if we had a special skill line for purely non-violent skills that increases as you choose peaceful options? And maybe achivements? Make being good rewarding. Then maybe it will come naturally in time.

Ok. I have read through most of the post and your responses to people, and I think you might have ill chosen a few words to possible ask your question or describe your statement; so if I am understanding you correctly here is what I would think would be nice.

One of the options to complete a quest would be instead of hacking and slashing your way through you could sneak past your enemies/opponents to complete your quest, and in doing so you would earn just as many skill points or maybe more for making it past all of them to complete your quest.

Another as someone mentioned earlier being able to knock out people without killing them, but there are several mechanics that would have to be thought out before that could be implemented; or maybe you could say that once they woke you would be flagged for combat and they would come looking for you. Just like every NPC seems to know who the healer is before combat even begins because they cast some kind of protection or heal over time spell on you before combat started.

There is more, but I have to go. I hope this is what you are looking for.

Absolutely. I imagine that the reward for a non-leathal solution would correspond to the total xp gained for killing every enemy in the quest area one time. Grinding can be done anywhere, so making some places with quests bound to them optional casualty free would not take away.

Acrolas · May 2015

Cernow wrote: »

A better term for what is being requested is "non lethal".

Except that his main idea was:

"wouldn't it be cool if we had a special skill line for purely non-violent skills that increases as you choose peaceful options?"

Knocking people out, disabling them, drugging them - that's all violence to different degrees.

Going by the World Health Organization's typology of violence, just joining a warring faction in the game counts as partaking in collective violence of a social and political nature.
(http://www.who.int/violence_injury_prevention/violence/world_report/en/)

It all goes back to ESO not being designed to accomplish any major story goal through wholly peaceful options.
Running away is the peaceful option. You can get, maybe, to level 10 by running away and just gaining exploration experience. If you manage to get through the tutorial peacefully, which I don't think you can.

And is there even feasibly a way to level peaceful options without entering combat? What about the huge experience gap you'll have by not getting combat experience? Not being able to grind CP?

The inevitable threads that combat is OP compared to peace? The plea to nerf combat to give those pesky Argonian hippies a chance to win a few battles with, well, I don't know how Argonians can win anything peacefully with those monotonous voices of theirs. War on my ears is what that is.

Anyway.

There's really no point in spending time and money to rethink the game so that a few people don't feel badly about killing imaginary people for imaginary points so they can get more imaginary coins and buy more powerful imaginary equipment.
It's a fake fantasy war.

"anybody who cares about stories applies values from their real lives into it. That is natural. Don't analyze it, as that won't lead anywhere."

For "a believer in reason," that's a huge fallacy. Experience and values are not the same thing, and many authors will tell you that the work they care about so much does not necessarily represent their views and ideologies. It's hypothetical. Conditional. Fictional.

Stories and quests, similarly, are not the same thing. Sometimes a tedious quest has a good story. Sometimes a great story has crappy gopher quests attached to it. What you're told and what you do aren't always connected on the same level of quality. That's why you have to leave real-world values at the door and just have fun inside the game despite its flaws.

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO · May 2015

For variation, I would have appreciated it if at least some quests required me to solve the task in a non-lethal manner, or at least reward me better for not going on a rampage. The current game always allows mindless killing as a solution. It gets old rather quickly. In most single player RPG titles, there is one or several plot twists that strip you of your weapons (by an arrest or similar) and requires you to talk or sneak your way out of trouble. Those moments are usually memorable for their change of pace.

It would have been a refreshing breath of fresh air if an NPC quest giver in ESO would have asked me to do even a menial fetch task without using violence, like "Please get my dog back from those mercenaries, but don't kill them. They don't deserve to die for taking my dog, but I really want him back." Stealth in this game is pretty useless in PvE except as a means for stealing, and in PvP it's only a means for killing better.

idk · May 2015

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

This is a game about fighting devil before it takes over the known world. Molag Bal isn't interested in being reformed (sorry if that is a spoiler). The most passive means to contain his threat is to destroy him. There are no other options.

Some things you just need to kill hehe

Worst possible example actually. Molag Bal (just like any other daedric creature) is actually UNDEAD, which means either immortable or already dead :-) We do not "kill them", we just send them back to Oblivion, and they have to be re-summoned to be able to set foot again on Nirn (unless they use special portal like dark anchors, but even then they have to be summoned and that is why Molag Bal needed Mannimarco and the Worm Cult as allies).

Meridia in her realm explains that to us : we have not killed Molag Bal, just chased him away for a while.

Besides, the OP never asked for a gameplay of "not killing anyone", but for "not killing innocents", in other words, for more RP aspects, more complex moral options and a gameplay more subtle than just "let's kill everything glowing red".

Daedra are not undead. They are Supernatural beings. Huge difference and it's why fighters guild skills say they affect daedra and undead vs just undead. We did not kill Molag Bal because we are not strong enough to kill a supernatural being as strong as him but we did destroy him in his current form.

Acrolas · May 2015

Gahurkaness wrote: »

Absolutely. I imagine that the reward for a non-leathal solution would correspond to the total xp gained for killing every enemy in the quest area one time.

I really just want to individually point out how awful this idea is.

You want to get paid the same as everyone else without the work?

No.

You want to go into a level 45 quest as a level 20 character and get XP for all those mobs that you wouldn't be able to kill anyway, just because you decided you didn't want to kill them?

No.

Shortcuts that give competitive XP aren't good quest design. Any shortcuts should forfeit XP, which is probably the one flaw with the Persuade/Intimidate skills. They should still give you a small XP penalty.

I don't even know why I'm arguing anymore. At this point you're asking for Captain Kirk in a Star Wars movie because it's all basically the same thing, right?

Gahurkaness · May 2015

Acrolas wrote: »

Gahurkaness wrote: »

Absolutely. I imagine that the reward for a non-leathal solution would correspond to the total xp gained for killing every enemy in the quest area one time.

I really just want to individually point out how awful this idea is.

You want to get paid the same as everyone else without the work?

No.

You want to go into a level 45 quest as a level 20 character and get XP for all those mobs that you wouldn't be able to kill anyway, just because you decided you didn't want to kill them?

No.

Shortcuts that give competitive XP aren't good quest design. Any shortcuts should forfeit XP, which is probably the one flaw with the Persuade/Intimidate skills. They should still give you a small XP penalty.

I don't even know why I'm arguing anymore. At this point you're asking for Captain Kirk in a Star Wars movie because it's all basically the same thing, right?

That could easily be regulated. I'm sorry for being blunt, but you are being silly for no reason.
Let me also again point out that it was always about merciful ways to advance quests. Obviously you can't even take a level 40 quest at level 20.

idk · May 2015

I thought this thread was originally a "passive" means of questing to avoid killing. Seems to have changed to becomes about having to do less fighting.

anitajoneb17_ESO · May 2015

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Daedra are not undead. They are Supernatural beings. Huge difference and it's why fighters guild skills say they affect daedra and undead vs just undead. We did not kill Molag Bal because we are not strong enough to kill a supernatural being as strong as him but we did destroy him in his current form.

I would not take skill tooltips as a reliable basis for lore references :-) but ok, let's not argue about the definition of "undead" which might be inappropriate and change it for "supernatural" or whatever. I'd say all undead are not daedra but all daedra are undead.

I still disagree with you though that we cannot kill daedra because they're too powerful for us. We cannot kill daedras because they are not killable, by nature. All we do is send them back to Oblivion, and that is valid for Molag Bal as well as for the tiniest daedric spider we can one-shoot. Sorcerers' pets (clannfear, twilights...) are daedra too, that's why they can be instantly resummoned when they "die".

A Daedroth's physical form can be ruined, but they cannot be truly killed; the soul or Animus of a slain Daedroth returns to the void of Oblivion until it manages to coalesce into a physical form again.[7][8] A slain Daedra is often said to have been "banished" or "purged" instead of "killed" to reflect this.[8] Daedra are the undisputed masters of craftsmanship, creating seemingly indestructible armors and the mightiest of weapons through dark rituals. Daedric weaponry is said to be forged from the highest quality of raw ebony. The objects get their power from a Daedric soul forged into the ebony.
Source : uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Daedra

And yes by "immortable" I meant either immortal or unkillable, let's blame the keyboard