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A serious suggestion to save PvP

olemanwinter
olemanwinter
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PvP right now is a mess. It's not truly fun for even many of the people that play it often. I think I may have stumbled onto a very simply tweak that would have a great impact on several fronts.

I'd like to begin with what I think open world PvP should be;

1) Competitive
No side should enjoy complete domination and even in the face of overwhelming numbers, a smaller force should have some chance at making advances if utilizing unique or at least dynamic strategies. By dynamic I mean changing in reaction to the environment. Always going from keep A to B to C is not as much fun as it could be in the best of time...and when the map is dominated it becomes next to impossible.

2) Fun for Small Groups
Some people hate running in large or zerg groups. These are sometimes really good and talented players and the game needs to reward their individual or small group efforts.

3) Fun for Large Groups
Some people really enjoy running with a large group. The game needs to provide a reason to group and provide a reward for doing so, beyond the simple farming of AP.

4) Fostering a Sense of Community Within the Alliance
There should be some sense of community between the guilds and players within an alliance instead of the constant bickering and appendage measuring.

5) As Lag Free as Possible and Profitable for Zos
Zos has already "tweaked" the game in many different ways to try to reduce performance loss. I think this would be another such tweak.


MY PROPOSAL: All keeps other than the 3 home keeps of an alliance CANNOT be ported to nor revived at under any circumstances. This would include the ring of keeps around the Imperial City and the 3 distant keeps of Brindle, Dragonclaw, and Drakelowe.

Shocking yet simple. Please allow me to explain and justify this position.

The biggest problem currently facing PvP in ESO is the domination of each campaign by a specific faction. This domination, if not permanent, at least lasts for a significant portion of the campaign duration, if not much longer. These servers become buff servers and the population dwindle even among the winning faction.

This begs a question. Why if the population of the winning side is reduced is it so difficult for another side to regain any ground? The answer is that the faction in control is never more than 1-2 min away. This results in a PvP environment where there is often almost no action whatsoever until the other side is finally alerted to your presence or finally begins to care and then they smash the resistance with overwhelming force.

1) What I propose would increase the competitive nature of the game by;
a ) requiring more effort the further your forces advance (like real life) which would discourage things like gate-camping.
b ) increase the risk and need for careful tactics the further your forces advance.

1.2) The flip side of discouraging careless rushing to the other end of the map would be to ENCOURAGE the alliance with lower population at the time to strike out with bold and inspired attacks where the rewards are greater.

This leads me to points 2 and 3 from above. The change would help both large and small groups in the following ways.

2) By decreasing the time that it takes for enemy players to get to UNEXPECTED attacks, small groups willing to ride far and risk much with highly coordinated attacks and strategies would have a chance to change the conditions on the map before being crushed.

3) The battles on the front lines would change less drastically. The closer to the middle of the map the more static and massive the battles would be because they would represent the balance of risk and reward. It would be slightly riskier than now, so players would need to be more careful and more apt to give revives rather than ride back, but it's still close enough (perhaps 5 min ride instead of 2 min ride) that reviving at a home keep is not such a horrible ordeal. I think we can also agree that people are more likely to get revives when grouped (than from non grouped alliance members).

I think this would interestingly be an incentive for people to play how they like. Those inclined to run in large groups would certainly see this as increasing the needs to do so. I believe those who like smaller groups or solo play would also see this as decreasing their need to run in a large group. This leads me to point 4.

I have noticed that often individual groups and guilds will purposefully stay quiet in zone chat when a keep is under attack or when a big attack is being carried out because they desire fewer players and less competition for alliance points. These groups are competing for rewards and they benefit from having fewer players outside of their chosen number at the engagement. Less competition for rewards and bigger shares of AP because it's divided among fewer players.

The reason this works is because they are almost always 2 min away from riding back. So, the risk from wiping is very small, and the reward from keeping others from the fight for AP is very large.

4) This change would cause groups to share their plans (at least current positioning upon attack and defend) with the zone because the cost of failure is greater. Zone chat would perhaps evolve from a nonsensical stream of arguing, flaming, and attention seeking into a place of actual strategy discussion and communication about the status of the realm.

4.2) This change would be likely to influence more players to give use soul gems for revival on the field of battle.

4.3) In general, I think this change would increase community within the alliance because the "war front" would be slower moving and give each alliance more of a sense of owning 1/3 of the map instead of owning the entire map 1/3 of the time. It would encourage communication between groups and guilds. It would encourage grouping (both large and small) and encourage teamwork and revives within those groups, etc.

Finally, if a decent percentage of the community found this agreeable, Zos should consider this proposal for the following reasons.

5) Zos has already tried to "spread out" the population by doing things like removing forward camps, increasing siege damage, and giving bonuses for Cyrodiil delves. But they have not tried to SLOW DOWN the population. Zos was on the right track when they set aside certain portions of the map that an enemy couldn't port to under any circumstances, however instead of having that be only the furthest 1/4 of the map...it should have been everything except the closest 1/4 of the map.

5.1) I can only imagine but this could also help with the future Imperial City expansion by making it more central in terms of control to match it's central physical location.

5.2) Zos I think has been open that they didn't expect people to complete content as quickly as they did. PvP isn't exactly content, but slowing down the progress within a campaign can't be bad for the longevity of the game. Additionally there is actual PvE content (and some of the best content) within Cyrodiil and it would slow down the exploration of that content.

5.3) The increased use of soul gems would be beneficial by increasing the number sold in the crown store and/or serving as a gold sink (it doesn't have to actually be gold) in the game by taking resources out of the economy.

NOTE 1: This would undeniably increase the minimum time spent riding mounts in Cyrodiil. However, please consider that with the current conditions of the servers at least 1 alliance (if not 2) already have to often ride MUCH FURTHER to find any fight. Where each alliance might have to regularly ride two keeps away, this would decrease the riding for alliances that are having to ride from their gates across the entire map to find a fight.

NOTE 2: If you think PvP is great the way it is and needs no changes, and certainly not this change, please feel free to say so, but ALSO remember this when the conditions in your server change (if they do) and you find yourself frustrated at that time.

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Thanks for your time and attention in reading this. Considering it's length I hope I didn't make too many errors. If I did, please don't let them detract from my proposal.
Edited by olemanwinter on May 20, 2015 10:46AM
  • Ffastyl
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    I... I see where this is going, you have clearly stated the consequences. I agree with you.
    Where my hopes fail is in the community accepting such a drastic change. Good or bad, humans resist change.
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."

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  • Bashev
    Bashev
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    Then every alliance will leave one resource from an opposite faction near the keeps and when is needed players will suicide there and re-spawn in the closest keep under attack.
    Edit. What will be the importance for the resources?
    Edited by Bashev on May 20, 2015 10:25AM
    Because I can!
  • olemanwinter
    olemanwinter
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    Bashev wrote: »
    Then every alliance will leave one resource from an opposite faction near the keeps and when is needed players will suicide there and re-spawn in the closest keep under attack.
    Edit. What will be the importance for the resources?

    I'm sorry. That's a big mistake on my part. I meant to write that you could neither port NOR REVIVE at the keeps. I will change the original post.
    Edited by olemanwinter on May 20, 2015 10:47AM
  • olemanwinter
    olemanwinter
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    Zos folks, @ZOS_Gideon @ZOS_UlyssesW @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_AlexD

    I'd love to draw this to your attention. If you can comment at all (even to say why it must be ruled out or even that it's an interesting idea) that would be great. If you cannot, I understand.
  • manny254
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    Organized groups will just 50/50 keeps with 20/20 siege, and no one will be able to respond fast enough. We will just go back to the all out keep ninja wars of the FC days.
    - Mojican
  • IxSTALKERxI
    IxSTALKERxI
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    So basically this would end up being horse simulator onl- Oh wait! We can't mount because of combat bug. So basically we'd have to walk for 20 mins to defend a keep and by the time we get there we would have lost 3 completely different keeps... unless we designate 20 people to sit inside each keep all day RPing... but what if no one ever came and attacked your designated keep? Doesn't sound very fun. :/
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  • Ffastyl
    Ffastyl
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    This must be what the board meetings are like.
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."

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  • Etaniel
    Etaniel
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    Instead of having only the three closest keeps, add all of the home keeps. Example for DC, you would be able to travel to / respawn to ash, aleswell, bleakers and dragonclaw, but not the rest. Because those keeps are also part of DC territory so they should be accessible imo. But overall I agree, the map turns from one color to the other very fast.
    So basically this would end up being horse simulator onl- Oh wait! We can't mount because of combat bug. So basically we'd have to walk for 20 mins to defend a keep and by the time we get there we would have lost 3 completely different keeps... unless we designate 20 people to sit inside each keep all day RPing... but what if no one ever came and attacked your designated keep? Doesn't sound very fun. :/

    To compensate for that, make keeps harder/longer to siege or make increase the percentage at which keeps become contested, so that defenders can start moving faster.

    It would only be horse simulator for those who have many keeps in enemy territory, meaning those who are dominant in the campaign. This way it would be harder to stay on top and truly be an accomplishment to hold the entire map.

    It would bring a bit more balance to the campaigns.

    Great detailed post, I think it's an excellent idea
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  • Sacadon
    Sacadon
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    Zone chat coordination or lack thereof is much about lack of trust and spies. So serious coordination may remain as tells between those trusted and zone chat left to counter-intelligence. Either way, lots of good ideas. Simply changing things up has added benefit, especially when positive motivation drives the desired results.

    And the unfortunately we cannot physically get our hands around the necks of those who get off on giving others a hard time ;P.
  • olemanwinter
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    manny254 wrote: »
    Organized groups will just 50/50 keeps with 20/20 siege, and no one will be able to respond fast enough. We will just go back to the all out keep ninja wars of the FC days.

    I personally think it's absurd that you can just watch the map and hyperport across the bulk of a country to meet the threat head on with no need to think ahead about where the enemy might next go and no need to even make a decision about if you should advance to face them head on or go around, etc.

    As it stands now...every campaign falls in a line. Take keeps A > B > C > D > WIN > EMPTY SERVER.

    Have you seen almost ANY campaign lately. They already got 50/50, 20/20'd and it's over. It's empty...and they are going to stay that way until something changes because you can't get any land back unless you have big BIG NUMBERS.

    And how do you get Big Numbers? By people jumping campaigns and either chasing or running from competition.

    What if you could make your own competition! What if when someone is going from C > D you could go around them and attack A?

    That's not possible right now. Simply not possible.

    If AD holds Ash and DC holds Glade, the AD/DC fight will be at one of those two places or in between. That's not realistic, it's not dynamic, and it's not fun.
  • olemanwinter
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    Etaniel wrote: »
    It would only be horse simulator for those who have many keeps in enemy territory, meaning those who are dominant in the campaign. This way it would be harder to stay on top and truly be an accomplishment to hold the entire map.

    Exactly, which is what I was saying in the OP. It would be more riding for some, but less for others. More for some circumstances and less for other circumstances. But what it would do without question is increase the challenge associated with dominating and holding an entire map.

    It's so easy to hold the two closest home keeps, but very challenging to proceed past that on a map that's been "crushed" and dominated.

    I want to move that line between easy to hold and difficult to hold to further away AND make the line less noticeable.
  • olemanwinter
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    So basically this would end up being horse simulator onl- Oh wait!
    It already is. It's just a horse riding simulator within a broken PvP environment. I'd rather have horse riding simulator inside a competitive and DYNAMIC pvp environment.
    We can't mount because of combat bug.
    I think it's a bad idea to design a game...around a bug. Lets just fix the bug, yeah?
    So basically we'd have to walk for 20 mins to defend a keep and by the time we get there we would have lost 3 completely different keeps
    Doesn't that sound fun! More keeps to fight over!

    Or is better to just see the map change from one color to the next in a steady progression like a rising tide and then we all leave the zone to come into the forums and continue the battle in here?

    Imagine always having new fights and keeps in flux! Sounds amazing!
    Thank you for making my point for me :-)
    unless we designate 20 people to sit inside each keep all day RPing
    Nobody is going to do that
    ... but what if no one ever came and attacked your designated keep? Doesn't sound very fun. :/
    So this is a non-issue.

    YOUR ENTIRE POST seems to be based on the premise that you hold the entire map, and that one faction holding the entire map should be the goal and is good for the alliance if not the game. You talk about losing keeps while defending other keeps. Oh the humanity!

    MY POSITION is that one alliance domination over an entire map is bad for everyone INCLUDING that alliance because it decreases the amount of interaction and playing on the campaign.
    Edited by olemanwinter on May 20, 2015 12:21PM
  • sadownik
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    Forward camps are long gone - it supposed to solve all that problems you mentioned - ofc it didnt. It caters to high lvl expirienced players, but scares away new players or makes pvp for them quite frustratiing. Now you want to take another step on that road. Fine by me but consequences will be - even more reasons to group up in huge zergs, even less freindly for new players.

    If you want pvp in eso to turn into elite gentlemans (and ladies) club go ahead.
    Edited by sadownik on May 20, 2015 12:33PM
  • manny254
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    manny254 wrote: »
    Organized groups will just 50/50 keeps with 20/20 siege, and no one will be able to respond fast enough. We will just go back to the all out keep ninja wars of the FC days.

    I personally think it's absurd that you can just watch the map and hyperport across the bulk of a country to meet the threat head on with no need to think ahead about where the enemy might next go and no need to even make a decision about if you should advance to face them head on or go around, etc.

    As it stands now...every campaign falls in a line. Take keeps A > B > C > D > WIN > EMPTY SERVER.

    Have you seen almost ANY campaign lately. They already got 50/50, 20/20'd and it's over. It's empty...and they are going to stay that way until something changes because you can't get any land back unless you have big BIG NUMBERS.

    And how do you get Big Numbers? By people jumping campaigns and either chasing or running from competition.

    What if you could make your own competition! What if when someone is going from C > D you could go around them and attack A?

    That's not possible right now. Simply not possible.

    If AD holds Ash and DC holds Glade, the AD/DC fight will be at one of those two places or in between. That's not realistic, it's not dynamic, and it's not fun.

    I think you are entirely missing the point. It is impossible to mount an offense when you can't defend what you already hold. I can just get 3 groups to co-operate and ninja your 3 relic keeps, and you can do nothing about it. This is already possible, but you can respawn at your relevant Emp Keeps (Ash Aleswell, BRK Chal, or Alessia Roe). So under your system these get taken, and your faction has no spawn point except the gate. The very thing you want to avoid you create. Your faction gets pushed to its gates with almost no effort, and ppl PVDoor the map.

    This is just a bad idea. You are thinking within your own idea of pvp, but not the reality of it.
    Edited by manny254 on May 20, 2015 12:41PM
    - Mojican
  • olemanwinter
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    sadownik wrote: »
    Forward camps are long gone - it supposed to solve all that problems you mentioned - ofc it didnt. It caters to high lvl expirienced players, but scares away new players or makes pvp for them quite frustratiing. Now you want to take another step on that road. Fine by me but consequences will be - even more reasons to group up in huge zergs, even less freindly for new players.

    If you want pvp in eso to turn into elite gentlemans (and ladies) club go ahead.

    How do you think a new player feels when they log on and find every keep, every outpost, every resource, and every scroll controlled by an alliance other then theirs?

    How do you think they feel when they and maybe 6 of their friends ride to one of these things and siege it only to be attacked by 3 times their number 90 seconds after it bursts?

    A bunch of campaigns are empty. I'm talking EMPTY. You can't buy a fight of any kind. And you are talking about catering to specific players.

    I'm talking about doing something other than making PvP obsolete and nothing but permanent buff servers.

    But thanks for your input.
  • olemanwinter
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    Sacadon wrote: »
    Zone chat coordination or lack thereof is much about lack of trust and spies. So serious coordination may remain as tells between those trusted and zone chat left to counter-intelligence.

    You have a good point here, and one I had already thought of. I tried to be careful in my language, but I didn't want to get into examples in the main post. But I will now.

    I don't mean sharing strategy in zone chat. I don't mean posting things like "We are prepping Chalman now, bursting in 2 min". I understand why that won't happen in most cases and I agree.

    What I mean is when a group/guild is sitting at Roebeck and watching siege get placed and watching it come under attack and saying nothing in zone. And when it finally bursts, someone might ask in zone "What's the status at Roebeck" and get no reply.

    I haven't seen an advanced warning go out in chat about an impending attack PRIOR to burst in ages.

    Keep gets attacked. Those there stay hushed to farm AP. Keep bursts. Someone else in zone not at keep alerts the zone. People rush towards keep as it flips.

    The groups in Cyrodiil need a reason to call on support (different than sharing strategy and different than giving orders) that is bigger than their reason to avoid help to farm AP imo.
  • Etaniel
    Etaniel
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    manny254 wrote: »
    manny254 wrote: »
    Organized groups will just 50/50 keeps with 20/20 siege, and no one will be able to respond fast enough. We will just go back to the all out keep ninja wars of the FC days.

    I personally think it's absurd that you can just watch the map and hyperport across the bulk of a country to meet the threat head on with no need to think ahead about where the enemy might next go and no need to even make a decision about if you should advance to face them head on or go around, etc.

    As it stands now...every campaign falls in a line. Take keeps A > B > C > D > WIN > EMPTY SERVER.

    Have you seen almost ANY campaign lately. They already got 50/50, 20/20'd and it's over. It's empty...and they are going to stay that way until something changes because you can't get any land back unless you have big BIG NUMBERS.

    And how do you get Big Numbers? By people jumping campaigns and either chasing or running from competition.

    What if you could make your own competition! What if when someone is going from C > D you could go around them and attack A?

    That's not possible right now. Simply not possible.

    If AD holds Ash and DC holds Glade, the AD/DC fight will be at one of those two places or in between. That's not realistic, it's not dynamic, and it's not fun.

    I think you are entirely missing the point. It is impossible to mount an offense when you can't defend what you already hold. I can just get 3 groups to co-operate and ninja your 3 relic keeps, and you can do nothing about it. This is already possible, but you can respawn at your relevant Emp Keeps (Ash Aleswell, BRK Chal, or Alessia Roe). So under your system these get taken, and your faction has no spawn point except the gate. The very thing you want to avoid you create. Your faction gets pushed to its gates with almost no effort, and ppl PVDoor the map.

    This is just a bad idea. You are thinking within your own idea of pvp, but not the reality of it.

    Not if we alter the OP's post a bit, by making respawn/travel available in ALL home keeps (that includes 1 emp keeps per faction)

    you say it's impossible to mount an offense when you can't defend what you already hold... Keep in mind that defense would be easier in this system (defense in your territory) and offense harder, so that if you get pushed at your home, you can easily punish the enemy because you will have the respawn advantage.
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  • sadownik
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    sadownik wrote: »
    Forward camps are long gone - it supposed to solve all that problems you mentioned - ofc it didnt. It caters to high lvl expirienced players, but scares away new players or makes pvp for them quite frustratiing. Now you want to take another step on that road. Fine by me but consequences will be - even more reasons to group up in huge zergs, even less freindly for new players.

    If you want pvp in eso to turn into elite gentlemans (and ladies) club go ahead.

    How do you think a new player feels when they log on and find every keep, every outpost, every resource, and every scroll controlled by an alliance other then theirs?

    How do you think they feel when they and maybe 6 of their friends ride to one of these things and siege it only to be attacked by 3 times their number 90 seconds after it bursts?

    A bunch of campaigns are empty. I'm talking EMPTY. You can't buy a fight of any kind. And you are talking about catering to specific players.

    I'm talking about doing something other than making PvP obsolete and nothing but permanent buff servers.

    But thanks for your input.

    New player doesnt care about it really. New player wants to fight and learn. And do you really think that what you rpopose will change the fact that faction with either higher population or better organized guilds will paint the map to their colour? And what about night capping? Its all wishful thinking thats all.

  • olemanwinter
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    manny254 wrote: »
    I think you are entirely missing the point. It is impossible to mount an offense when you can't defend what you already hold..

    I guess I just have to disagree outright with your basic premise. I witness this constantly. CONSTANTLY.

    I hardly ever see anything but this. lmao

    The whole strategy of the guilds running PvP at the moment, both inside a campaign and across campaings, is to flee from conflict. Take the next keep before they retake the one you just took from them.

    I never hardly ever group. I run solo and get no AP from other people's kills and I get no AP from healing. Yet I'm often high on the leaderboards because when given the chance between an offensive battle and a defensive battle, I choose to try to hold onto what we have.

    Here is a little story.

    I was in Thornblade when guild LoM came into Thorn mid campaign one evening. When they came in we had I think Warden, Rayles and that's it. In fast succession they took Glade and Ales. And then EP woke up.

    Within 90 seconds of repairing the wall at Ales, EP was there in force setting up a bunch of siege. LoM didn't even set up 1 single counter siege. While the keep was being sieged from the West, they rode out the South and went to try to capture Ash.

    WITH MY PLAN neither EP nor DC would have acted the same way. EP wouldn't have been able to get there that fast. They would not be able to simply snap their fingers and arrive at the fight. They would have to anticipate "bleakers or Ash" and go there. DC, having a long ride back at risk, wouldn't have been so cavalier as to just ride out to a certain wipe at Ash and leave Ales to fall.

    ALL THE WAYS THAT COULD HAVE GONE WITH MY PLAN

    1) EP rides west from Arrius and DC continues east from ales. They meet at Bleakers for an epic battle. Just as they thought.

    2) EP rides west from Arrius assuming DC will attack Bleakers, but DC goes south to Ash. In my scenario AD is probably in control of ASH and is ready for an attack after seeing Ales fall. DC has to try to take Ash while they risk EP coming in behind them and taking Ales. This already happens, but it doesn't matter because the whole thing takes 4 minutes and people just blood port back.

    3) Same thing but EP has Ash (assume EP emp). DC arrives at Ash to find it deserted and takes it while looking back frustrated to see EP took what they just got with Ales. Glass half empty of half full?

    4) EP thinks DC is headed for Ash and gambles to head there and wipe them. But DC is making a direct Eastward march and get a lot of ground while EP went the long and wrong way. Whoops.

    5)....

    You get the idea??? Doesn't that sound like epic fun?!
  • Ffastyl
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    sadownik wrote: »
    New player doesnt care about it really. New player wants to fight and learn. And do you really think that what you rpopose will change the fact that faction with either higher population or better organized guilds will paint the map to their colour? And what about night capping? Its all wishful thinking thats all.

    It's good to hear/read that about new players, assuming you are one.

    And nothing short of population balance will prevent night capping, map flipping, etc. but suggestions like the above can make it more difficult to pull off outside of deadshift hours and less difficult to recover from.
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  • Etaniel
    Etaniel
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    sadownik wrote: »
    sadownik wrote: »
    Forward camps are long gone - it supposed to solve all that problems you mentioned - ofc it didnt. It caters to high lvl expirienced players, but scares away new players or makes pvp for them quite frustratiing. Now you want to take another step on that road. Fine by me but consequences will be - even more reasons to group up in huge zergs, even less freindly for new players.

    If you want pvp in eso to turn into elite gentlemans (and ladies) club go ahead.

    How do you think a new player feels when they log on and find every keep, every outpost, every resource, and every scroll controlled by an alliance other then theirs?

    How do you think they feel when they and maybe 6 of their friends ride to one of these things and siege it only to be attacked by 3 times their number 90 seconds after it bursts?

    A bunch of campaigns are empty. I'm talking EMPTY. You can't buy a fight of any kind. And you are talking about catering to specific players.

    I'm talking about doing something other than making PvP obsolete and nothing but permanent buff servers.

    But thanks for your input.

    New player doesnt care about it really. New player wants to fight and learn. And do you really think that what you rpopose will change the fact that faction with either higher population or better organized guilds will paint the map to their colour? And what about night capping? Its all wishful thinking thats all.

    Your argument is empty, do you think that the change will make things worse? if so how? We've already explained how we think it makes it better.
    Organized guilds will find a bit more challenge that shouldn't change much, but large zergs will dwindle down slowly as they move in enemy territory and will be wiped way easier since they won't have continuous reinforcements from 100 meters away.
    It doesn't solve nightcapping, but it makes the day time experience better.
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  • olemanwinter
    olemanwinter
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    sadownik wrote: »
    New player doesnt care about it really. New player wants to fight and learn.

    Which they cannot currently do in many or most campaigns
    sadownik wrote: »
    And do you really think that what you rpopose will change the fact that faction with either higher population or better organized guilds will paint the map to their colour?

    Yes I honestly do. For logical reasons. The further you get from your home base the longer it takes AND the longer it takes to try again after a wipe.

    Lets say a group of 40 DC are attacking Arrius from Chalman and they wipe to a defending group of 25 EP. Currently that group is back from Chalman almost before you can even repair the wall. Perhaps 120 seconds to 4 min max. However in my plan, they would have to ride back from Glademist, which would take perhaps 10 minutes. Not only would EP have a chance to repair Arrius, but perhaps by overextending and wiping outright, by the time DC gets back they are now defending Chalman from EP siege instead :-)

    Doesn't that sound interesting!
    sadownik wrote: »
    And what about night capping?

    Would still be a problem, but the difference is that the losing side wouldn't have to wait until their own big high population guilds come back online to take back some ground. It would end the "wave crashing" of the night capping. More like a rising and lowering tide than a wave crashing and rushing back.
  • sadownik
    sadownik
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    Etaniel wrote: »
    sadownik wrote: »
    sadownik wrote: »
    Forward camps are long gone - it supposed to solve all that problems you mentioned - ofc it didnt. It caters to high lvl expirienced players, but scares away new players or makes pvp for them quite frustratiing. Now you want to take another step on that road. Fine by me but consequences will be - even more reasons to group up in huge zergs, even less freindly for new players.

    If you want pvp in eso to turn into elite gentlemans (and ladies) club go ahead.

    How do you think a new player feels when they log on and find every keep, every outpost, every resource, and every scroll controlled by an alliance other then theirs?

    How do you think they feel when they and maybe 6 of their friends ride to one of these things and siege it only to be attacked by 3 times their number 90 seconds after it bursts?

    A bunch of campaigns are empty. I'm talking EMPTY. You can't buy a fight of any kind. And you are talking about catering to specific players.

    I'm talking about doing something other than making PvP obsolete and nothing but permanent buff servers.

    But thanks for your input.

    New player doesnt care about it really. New player wants to fight and learn. And do you really think that what you rpopose will change the fact that faction with either higher population or better organized guilds will paint the map to their colour? And what about night capping? Its all wishful thinking thats all.

    Your argument is empty, do you think that the change will make things worse? if so how? We've already explained how we think it makes it better.
    Organized guilds will find a bit more challenge that shouldn't change much, but large zergs will dwindle down slowly as they move in enemy territory and will be wiped way easier since they won't have continuous reinforcements from 100 meters away.
    It doesn't solve nightcapping, but it makes the day time experience better.

    I was also explained many tie=mes by you - veterans of pvp how getting rid ofr fc made pvp much better. For you - perhaps. For me deffinetly not. As i said go ahead, turn pvp even more into your personal playgrounds but dont be surprised if many players wont be enthusiastic.
  • manny254
    manny254
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    manny254 wrote: »
    I think you are entirely missing the point. It is impossible to mount an offense when you can't defend what you already hold..

    I guess I just have to disagree outright with your basic premise. I witness this constantly. CONSTANTLY.

    I hardly ever see anything but this. lmao

    The whole strategy of the guilds running PvP at the moment, both inside a campaign and across campaings, is to flee from conflict. Take the next keep before they retake the one you just took from them.

    I never hardly ever group. I run solo and get no AP from other people's kills and I get no AP from healing. Yet I'm often high on the leaderboards because when given the chance between an offensive battle and a defensive battle, I choose to try to hold onto what we have.

    Here is a little story.

    I was in Thornblade when guild LoM came into Thorn mid campaign one evening. When they came in we had I think Warden, Rayles and that's it. In fast succession they took Glade and Ales. And then EP woke up.

    Within 90 seconds of repairing the wall at Ales, EP was there in force setting up a bunch of siege. LoM didn't even set up 1 single counter siege. While the keep was being sieged from the West, they rode out the South and went to try to capture Ash.

    WITH MY PLAN neither EP nor DC would have acted the same way. EP wouldn't have been able to get there that fast. They would not be able to simply snap their fingers and arrive at the fight. They would have to anticipate "bleakers or Ash" and go there. DC, having a long ride back at risk, wouldn't have been so cavalier as to just ride out to a certain wipe at Ash and leave Ales to fall.

    ALL THE WAYS THAT COULD HAVE GONE WITH MY PLAN

    1) EP rides west from Arrius and DC continues east from ales. They meet at Bleakers for an epic battle. Just as they thought.

    2) EP rides west from Arrius assuming DC will attack Bleakers, but DC goes south to Ash. In my scenario AD is probably in control of ASH and is ready for an attack after seeing Ales fall. DC has to try to take Ash while they risk EP coming in behind them and taking Ales. This already happens, but it doesn't matter because the whole thing takes 4 minutes and people just blood port back.

    3) Same thing but EP has Ash (assume EP emp). DC arrives at Ash to find it deserted and takes it while looking back frustrated to see EP took what they just got with Ales. Glass half empty of half full?

    4) EP thinks DC is headed for Ash and gambles to head there and wipe them. But DC is making a direct Eastward march and get a lot of ground while EP went the long and wrong way. Whoops.

    5)....

    You get the idea??? Doesn't that sound like epic fun?!

    So you don't group, but you claim to have a understanding of large group strategies based off of one anecdotal example. I see what is going on now.

    BTW I have no idea why you mentioned AP gain, but since you assert it in a way that sounds like you think it gives you validity. I finished last Chillrend campaign as #1 while mostly playing solo/small group, and was #2 the campaign before.
    Edited by manny254 on May 20, 2015 1:33PM
    - Mojican
  • Erondil
    Erondil
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    If you can't port or any keep besides the 3 "home keeps", players won't take risks becase the death means 15 riding. It's already hard to find smalll fights, if you do this, every players beside very few organized group will walk in a 50 men zerg... enjoy.
    ~retired~
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  • Manoekin
    Manoekin
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    It's only going to accentuate what happened when they removed FC's... Zerg rules. If you make the run back even longer it's going to increase the value of player resses even more than what it is now, and the easiest way to make sure player resses go off is to have more people than the enemy. Your proposal only encourages zerging.

    Say what you want about FC's, but they spread out the faction until south-ga and AD ruined it. They just need to change FC's to not be exploitable like they were.
  • IxSTALKERxI
    IxSTALKERxI
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    Lol I just wanna kill stuff... why does it have to be made so complicated. -.-
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  • Ffastyl
    Ffastyl
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    Lol I just wanna kill stuff... why does it have to be made so complicated. -.-

    Because humanity = scumbags.
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  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
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    OP has never ridden a horse from Arrius to Blackboot.
    Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.
  • Garion
    Garion
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    I see what you are trying to achieve and I think it's great that the community are making active suggestions to improve PvP. I am hoping that these kind of threads do draw the attention of ZOS and make them realise that people are desperate for something to change, because currently PvP in this game is in a bad place.

    Having said that, unfortunately I don't think this would be a positive change - and here is why.

    Firstly I think that reducing mobility in Cyrodiil is going to drastically reduce the number of active fights. If you limit the distance people can travel and force them to spend a lot of time on horses, this will in turn lead to people getting frustrated and playing less. I for one wouldn't bother logging in if this change was implemented - it can be hard enough to find fights on some campaigns beyond mindless zerging as it is.

    I know this point has been counter argued above with the fact that it will only be the dominant campaign that has to ride the most. Well, yes, but consider the following:
    • I am the non-dominant faction, I have a short ride to the keeps near me but when I finish my ride I get a fantastic PvDoor, rather than PvP experience because the opposing faction is busy on the other side of the map or they understandably can't be
    • I am the dominant faction, although had no involvement in the nightcapping or one sided push that painted the map one colour, suddenly I am penalised for the actions of others by having to ride for ten minutes before getting ganked and having to do that ride all over again. No thanks, I'm logging out.

    So in my opinion all that riding is not a good thing, from whatever perspective you look at it.

    Furthermore I have to say that I agree with what Dennegor said earlier in this thread. The current meta game encourages zerging in a number of ways, but introducing this change only increases the innate desire for players to seek safety in numbers, particularly those of less experience. Set the cost of dying too high (i.e. you have to ride to the other side of the map if you die, or perhaps wait and get frustrated as everyone runs over you without giving you a res) and you encourage people to run together to significantly reduce the risk of dying. Increasing the desire to zerg is definitely not a good thing, and is reason enough alone not to introduce the change suggested.
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