A guard should NOT be invincible, but THE guard should be.

Yukian · May 2015

Takhistis wrote: »

I like it, just would want that if I do manage to kill 1 guard, the others don't spawn immediately, and that I got time to flee. Else it'd still be the same where we would get killed anyway, unless we run very fast and use a lot of stamina potions

This. But as stated above, a limit should be imposed on the number of guards currently spawned on the server - so it stops at say 120 and doesn't go up to 3000 and crash the server. :c..

Gidorick · May 2015

Takhistis wrote: »

I like it, just would want that if I do manage to kill 1 guard, the others don't spawn immediately, and that I got time to flee. Else it'd still be the same where we would get killed anyway, unless we run very fast and use a lot of stamina potions

I would agree that killing a guard should give you the possibility of getting away.

Gidorick · May 2015

So we've settled on that:

We don't want the guard to ever be invincible.
We don't want too many guards - performance concerns.
We want to be able to escape them.
We don't want players to be able to gang up and remove all guards from a town.

Is that about everything?

jkemmery · May 2015

I strongly disagree with your idea and in fact support the current system of invulnerable guards, otherwise organized groups of players could seriously disrupt a zone, having a negative impact on the game for the other players in the zone.

Yukian · May 2015

jkemmery wrote: »

I strongly disagree with your idea and in fact support the current system of invulnerable guards, otherwise organized groups of players could seriously disrupt a zone, having a negative impact on the game for the other players in the zone.

Good. -calls in the strike team- MEN! Its time to conquer Whiterun! We shall become joint Jarls & live like kings! ONWARD!

But meh. The guards are there because otherwise the justice system would be... well. worthless. But nevertheless, while i DO believe the guards should be overtly strong - they're guarding a town after all - they shouldn't be gods. @.@ Perhaps, to balance it out, place a large bounty if a guard is killed? And have bounty hunters come after you? i dunno. You'd need something to balance this all out. Because if some guild decided "Oh hey look, a town! Lets go massacre everything in it just because we can!" as the above post states... well again it screws the system over. Maybe cause merchants to run in fear/throw you out of their shops/refuse to trade if you're known to have attacked a guard in the last 2-3 days? Or send out an alert to nearby enforcers(when added). Just an idea. u.u

Gidorick · May 2015

jkemmery wrote: »

I strongly disagree with your idea and in fact support the current system of invulnerable guards, otherwise organized groups of players could seriously disrupt a zone, having a negative impact on the game for the other players in the zone.

While I agree that any system would be tested by players I don't think the answer is to just have invulnerable guards. That's a cop out. There has to be a design that would allow guards to be killed while keeping towns intact.

krees28b14_ESO · May 2015

The bigger problem I have is when you are caught inside a building. Even if you put enough distance between you and the guard and make it to a door you cannot go through the door.

docstrawb · May 2015

I, for one, hate that it is half assed. I'd rather it just be killable guards all around. Maybe strong, but not immortal. Why arent they saving nirn? They are obviously the ones for it, not you. It kills my immersion, personally. The vestige, the chosen one can't even kill a town guard. A guard who knows what you've done magically with no reason. I like the justice system, but I don't at all like how it is implemented in that regard. I also don't see the big drawback killable guards would have. Towns might be flooded with battle, but so what. that would be entertaining. Trolls would only be able to go so far before their bounty was too monumental to pay off, gimping their character to the point that they could find no peace or be in debt up to their ears.

Siliconhobbit_ESO · May 2015

I'm not sure what purpose this system serves....

Right now, guards are invincible..or nigh invincible. I haven't seen anyone kill one yet. There is no reason to engage a guard or group of guards in combat. If you manage to get into combat with one, you either die, or run away and hope to live the 'flight'.

The system proposed above also seems to have no incentive to attack guards. Of course why would a player need to have any incentive to attack a guard. The system proposed above only serves to prolong the eventual death of a player or a group of players, while adding a significant bounty to anyone that is included in a 'kill' of each guard and each successive wave of guards.

Again, I'm not sure if I understand the reason why we would need such a system.

Davadin · May 2015

Siliconhobbit_ESO wrote: »

I'm not sure what purpose this system serves....

Right now, guards are invincible..or nigh invincible. I haven't seen anyone kill one yet. There is no reason to engage a guard or group of guards in combat. If you manage to get into combat with one, you either die, or run away and hope to live the 'flight'.

The system proposed above also seems to have no incentive to attack guards. Of course why would a player need to have any incentive to attack a guard. The system proposed above only serves to prolong the eventual death of a player or a group of players, while adding a significant bounty to anyone that is included in a 'kill' of each guard and each successive wave of guards.

Again, I'm not sure if I understand the reason why we would need such a system.

Immersion.

I can defeat Molag Bal but a security guard is invincible?

Davadin · May 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

So we've settled on that:

We don't want the guard to ever be invincible.
We don't want too many guards - performance concerns.
We want to be able to escape them.
We don't want players to be able to gang up and remove all guards from a town.

Is that about everything?

Yup.

Last note: maybe instead of making the guards invincible, we can make the player (crime offender) more vulnerable?

Gidorick · May 2015

Davadin wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

So we've settled on that:

We don't want the guard to ever be invincible.
We don't want too many guards - performance concerns.
We want to be able to escape them.
We don't want players to be able to gang up and remove all guards from a town.

Is that about everything?

Yup.

Last note: maybe instead of making the guards invincible, we can make the player (crime offender) more vulnerable?

So... debuffs when you kill a guard..... making it so that if you continue killing guards you just get weaker and weaker. That is a REALLY interesting idea. Those debuffs could also last after wayshrine resurrection, which would discourage players from just running back into a battle with the guards. That's brilliant!

Varicite · May 2015

jkemmery wrote: »

I strongly disagree with your idea and in fact support the current system of invulnerable guards, otherwise organized groups of players could seriously disrupt a zone, having a negative impact on the game for the other players in the zone.

I'm curious how you feel that organized groups of players could disrupt a zone in any way that can't currently be accomplished?

Siliconhobbit_ESO · May 2015

Davadin wrote: »

Immersion.

I get what you're saying here.

However, I think immersion could be better served with something else, rather than a system that not only greatly penalizes a player for engaging in something they are already trying to avoid to begin with, but also encourages them to totally avoid the system altogether, making it useless.

I feel the above detalied system is liken to a player trying to escape deep hole while throwing dirt back into the hole on top of them as they try to escape.

It's already a situation you want to avoid, made worse the deeper you get into it.

Varicite · May 2015

@Siliconhobbit_ESO

I dunno, the system laid out by the OP seems like you'd still be able to run away from the guards exactly as you would currently and avoid the growing number of reinforcements altogether.

It's only if you turn and fight and actually start killing the guards outright that you'd end up in a situation that gets worse the deeper you get into it.

The only players who would be effected by these changes are those who wish to actively engage more deeply into the role of outlaw or brigand, not those who wish to avoid these situations.

Iluvrien · May 2015

Varicite wrote: »

I'm curious how you feel that organized groups of players could disrupt a zone in any way that can't currently be accomplished?

I suspect it might be because the lifetime of a group that was attempting to openly wipe out all of the killable NPCs in a city at the moment is pretty short. With this system that lifetime may well considerably longer and so the possibility for disruption is that much greater... I suspect. Even with @Gidorick's system (which has an automatic endpoint built in) as opposed to the people just calling for "killable guards" this is a possibility.

Varicite · May 2015

Iluvrien wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

I'm curious how you feel that organized groups of players could disrupt a zone in any way that can't currently be accomplished?

I suspect it might be because the lifetime of a group that was attempting to openly wipe out all of the killable NPCs in a city at the moment is pretty short. With this system that lifetime may well considerably longer and so the possibility for disruption is that much greater... I suspect. Even with @Gidorick's system (which has an automatic endpoint built in) as opposed to the people just calling for "killable guards" this is a possibility.

But none of the killable NPCs are essential in any way. They are not quest givers, they don't sell anything, they are literally just there to be killed.

I'm not sure why killing NPCs that exist only to be killed would be considered disruptive?

Iluvrien · May 2015

Varicite wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

I'm curious how you feel that organized groups of players could disrupt a zone in any way that can't currently be accomplished?

I suspect it might be because the lifetime of a group that was attempting to openly wipe out all of the killable NPCs in a city at the moment is pretty short. With this system that lifetime may well considerably longer and so the possibility for disruption is that much greater... I suspect. Even with @Gidorick's system (which has an automatic endpoint built in) as opposed to the people just calling for "killable guards" this is a possibility.

But none of the killable NPCs are essential in any way. They are not quest givers, they don't sell anything, they are literally just there to be killed.

I'm not sure why killing NPCs that exist only to be killed would be considered disruptive?

1) The battles themselves, when carried out in a settlement, are disruptive. For the same reason that spamming healing or AOE abilities at crafting/bank areas was, and is, considered disruptive.
2) The same reason that people in this thread are calling for changes to a system that they find unrealistic. Immersion.

Gidorick · May 2015

I agree that it would be really irritating to have groups of players sweep through towns every 10 minutes or so killing everything in sight. A system for killable guards would HAVE to have power mitigating properties so that players who choose to partake in guardkilling:

Aren't able to go on a "spree"
ARE able to escape the situation
are sufficiently "punished"

I can completely understand why ZOS decided to just make the guards invincible. Vulnerable guards are very subject to abuse. Balancing the system that players CAN kill guards but they are sufficiently punished for doing to so they don't WANT to kill guards is a hard thing to do.

Part of the issue with my suggestions is that I was trying to take the current justice system model and shoehorn killable guards into it... I'm thinking that's not possible. To have killable guards, there would need to be larger, more dramatic changes to the justice system as a whole... and there would have to be a reason a player would kill a guard instead of just trying to run away. Here are some of my thoughts.

Maybe killing a guard will set a curse upon the player setting the player's stats at 1/2 of what they are for 10 minutes. Each additional guard they kill would set their stats to 1/2 their current state. A level 50 character would quickly diminish from 50 to 25 to 12 to 6 to 3 to 1... and that's after killing 6 guards. Each time a player kills a guard their time is EXTENDED for 10 minutes... so a level 50 player could be stuck at level 1 for 40 minutes or so.This would discourage players killing guards. and would serve the same function as creating stronger guards... just without actually creating more guards.
Perhaps killing a guard also reduces a player's bounty to ZERO, but increases the heat so they are Kill on Sight for an even longer period of time... but getting killed by a guard increases the bounty a significant amount. There's a risk and reward there.
Also, what if getting killed by a guard makes the player loose XP? That could be an interesting mechanic.

All of these would create an incentive to kill guards if you get in trouble but would give the player significant reasons to NOT get killed by a guard.

OtarTheMad · May 2015

The guards should not be killable because of the simple fact that people would run around and just kill them in each city and always get away with crap, that's no fun. Or worse, a group(s) will just run around and kill the guards for giggles causing lag and frustration for those questing causing more players to just screw it and play something else. Just no.

Gidorick · May 2015

OtarTheMad wrote: »

The guards should not be killable because of the simple fact that people would run around and just kill them in each city and always get away with crap, that's no fun. Or worse, a group(s) will just run around and kill the guards for giggles causing lag and frustration for those questing causing more players to just screw it and play something else. Just no.

That's kind of what this whole thread is about. We're discussing how it might be able to be done fairly... That's fine that you disagree with the core premise of this thread but just saying "no" isn't constructive. We all know why they are currently invincible. That discussion isn't needed. The discussion that is needed is how guards could be made mortal in a way that's fair and balanced.

It's easy just to cross your arms and say "no!"... how about some critical thought into what's the best way to go about the idea that guards should be able to be killed?

Davadin · May 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

So we've settled on that:

We don't want the guard to ever be invincible.
We don't want too many guards - performance concerns.
We want to be able to escape them.
We don't want players to be able to gang up and remove all guards from a town.

Is that about everything?

Yup.

Last note: maybe instead of making the guards invincible, we can make the player (crime offender) more vulnerable?

So... debuffs when you kill a guard..... making it so that if you continue killing guards you just get weaker and weaker. That is a REALLY interesting idea. Those debuffs could also last after wayshrine resurrection, which would discourage players from just running back into a battle with the guards. That's brilliant!

It's interesting because debuff affects only YOU... while buffing the guards affects everyone

Siliconhobbit_ESO wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

Immersion.

I get what you're saying here.

However, I think immersion could be better served with something else, rather than a system that not only greatly penalizes a player for engaging in something they are already trying to avoid to begin with, but also encourages them to totally avoid the system altogether, making it useless.

I feel the above detalied system is liken to a player trying to escape deep hole while throwing dirt back into the hole on top of them as they try to escape.

It's already a situation you want to avoid, made worse the deeper you get into it.

See my debuff post instead of buffing.

But yes, I agree. Complex system will do more harm than good.

Gidorick wrote: »

I can completely understand why ZOS decided to just make the guards invincible. Vulnerable guards are very subject to abuse. Balancing the system that players CAN kill guards but they are sufficiently punished for doing to so they don't WANT to kill guards is a hard thing to do.

this is my first post in this thread.

Gidorick · May 2015

Davadin wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

I can completely understand why ZOS decided to just make the guards invincible. Vulnerable guards are very subject to abuse. Balancing the system that players CAN kill guards but they are sufficiently punished for doing to so they don't WANT to kill guards is a hard thing to do.

this is my first post in this thread.

Truths don't change.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · May 2015

jkemmery wrote: »

I strongly disagree with your idea and in fact support the current system of invulnerable guards, otherwise organized groups of players could seriously disrupt a zone, having a negative impact on the game for the other players in the zone.

Not being able to kill guards is disrupting MY game play. I'm not saying this to troll but you are saying that I can't murder as I see fit in the enemy zone (AD and DC will always but enemies I don't care about that quarter bake Cadwell quest) I can't play my way just because you don't want to see dead bodies how is that fair to players like me.

The immersion dies when you can do anything but kill guards, venders I get other players having to wait till they reset would be BS but guards should be killable and the only reason they are not is cause they can't have PvP in the PvE zones and let me tell you why.

Background You must wear the tabard the attack a wanted player and wanted players are always flagged for PvP

1) Can random players see Wanted players in stealth. If yes they put the tabard on and jump you when you steal cause they can see you. If no then will random heals pop you out are you cloaked to everyone or can players with bounties see in which case have a friend steal an apple get a very low bounty and call out stealthers.

2) After a wanted player has need caught can the Bounty Hunter take off the tabard and unflag themselves from PvP ? If yes then well kill wanted player, take it off the tabard and go to the Guard Towers unchecked cause only wanted players would be "flagged" for PvP all the time. If no players will camp the Guard Tower and Hide outs and Gank cause you have use one of those to get paid.

3) If the Bounty Hunter tabard is removed before you turn in the quest are all the items flagged as stolen? If yes you lose your stats and power from the bounty hunter and are now an outlaw. If no kill wanted players and ventor the goods and turn in kill quest (as you can have a bounty even after you sell the stolen goods, so no reason to think the hunter would ever get the goods back) so double payday.

4) Can wanted player prema-flagged for PvP kill one an other? If yes Gank city. If no honor among thieves and murders, really?

5) If a wanted player kills another wanted player does he get to bounty? If yes why that's what you want. If no why it's murder not justice

Also to make that work all players in stealth would have to unseen to friendlies so huge server load with all the can he see him checks going but and forward this system like most others was Quarter baked at best and that's sad and lazy

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · May 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

I agree that it would be really irritating to have groups of players sweep through towns every 10 minutes or so killing everything in sight. A system for killable guards would HAVE to have power mitigating properties so that players who choose to partake in guardkilling:
Aren't able to go on a "spree"

ARE able to escape the situation

are sufficiently "punished"

I can completely understand why ZOS decided to just make the guards invincible. Vulnerable guards are very subject to abuse. Balancing the system that players CAN kill guards but they are sufficiently punished for doing to so they don't WANT to kill guards is a hard thing to do.

Part of the issue with my suggestions is that I was trying to take the current justice system model and shoehorn killable guards into it... I'm thinking that's not possible. To have killable guards, there would need to be larger, more dramatic changes to the justice system as a whole... and there would have to be a reason a player would kill a guard instead of just trying to run away. Here are some of my thoughts.
Maybe killing a guard will set a curse upon the player setting the player's stats at 1/2 of what they are for 10 minutes. Each additional guard they kill would set their stats to 1/2 their current state. A level 50 character would quickly diminish from 50 to 25 to 12 to 6 to 3 to 1... and that's after killing 6 guards. Each time a player kills a guard their time is EXTENDED for 10 minutes... so a level 50 player could be stuck at level 1 for 40 minutes or so.This would discourage players killing guards. and would serve the same function as creating stronger guards... just without actually creating more guards.

Perhaps killing a guard also reduces a player's bounty to ZERO, but increases the heat so they are Kill on Sight for an even longer period of time... but getting killed by a guard increases the bounty a significant amount. There's a risk and reward there.

Also, what if getting killed by a guard makes the player loose XP? That could be an interesting mechanic.

All of these would create an incentive to kill guards if you get in trouble but would give the player significant reasons to NOT get killed by a guard.

Just no so I lose CP and levels for lower level players and half my stats so just stop playing the game as my debuff counts down that's not a smart move as WHY MUST WE HAVE DIRE CONSEQUENCES they are guards not God or Saints period you don't want to see dead bodies too bad stop playing a Medieval game in the middle of a huge War. People die, Murders exist people will Kill you could do this in EVERY SINGLE other TES game the problem with having so many different people playing a game is that they will not always play your way so what

If you don't want to see dead people what does this have to do with me I killed a God and his Army. Look @Gidorick I get what you are trying to do just making them killable is the only real fix to this their is no "freedom of Play style" when the two was to deal with Guards are Run or Die every player is lowed to a weak child fighting the Hulk vs a guard.

See it this way when my chances to win a fight at level 3 and Max Level are the same your game is unbalanced as hell

Gidorick · May 2015

What is your answer to allowing players to just overrun towns keeping everyone dread @kendellking_chaosb14_ESO? Because if guards were just outright killable, that would happen....

Wreuntzylla · May 2015

There are many people who want to be the hero and will come running as soon as they become aware that a criminal is wantonly killing people.

If having warfare in the streets is such a problem for some people, they could always instance each town/city in which 5 or more players have bounties. Make it essentially a battleground. It would also add the interesting element that you could be fighting alongside players you typically fight against in PvP, and you could be after criminals you usually fight with in Pvp.

ZOS_MandiParker · May 2015

Our Justice design team explored several approaches regarding guards vulnerability, but ultimately the choice to make them invulnerable was made as a result of extensive testing and experimentation. We looked at wave events with increasing guard difficulty, and several other dynamic and complex designs. However, they all had significant problems not only technically, but also in terms of security and scope. Additionally, we had to consider which approach felt the most fair and also fun for the criminals but also for non-criminals.

Justice changed the fundamentals of the overland game, requiring massive amount of resources, and we needed to be cautious and wise when designing our sub-systems. Additionally, “essential” (aka “invulnerable”) NPCs have been part of other Elder Scrolls games for technical and mechanical reasons, and that is something that makes sense for ESO as well.

We also had to keep in mind future plans for Justice and prioritize aspects of the system based on their present and future compatibility. We absolutely plan to continue to make updates on the Justice System as ESO evolves with future content and player gameplay patterns. For the time being, we are monitoring the player interactions with the guards, and as the product owner and systems designer for Justice, I absolutely read feedback on the forum regularly, and our fantastic Community team passes along all sorts of feedback to our teams as well. This doesn’t mean we will (or can) implement every suggestion, but we absolutely take your experiences, critiques and suggestions into account when the opportunity arises to make adjustments to the System.

Varicite · May 2015

Guards have never before been considered "essential" NPCs, though. <.<

Davadin · May 2015

ZOS_MandiParker wrote: »

Our Justice design team explored several approaches regarding guards vulnerability, but ultimately the choice to make them invulnerable was made as a result of extensive testing and experimentation. We looked at wave events with increasing guard difficulty, and several other dynamic and complex designs. However, they all had significant problems not only technically, but also in terms of security and scope. Additionally, we had to consider which approach felt the most fair and also fun for the criminals but also for non-criminals.

Justice changed the fundamentals of the overland game, requiring massive amount of resources, and we needed to be cautious and wise when designing our sub-systems. Additionally, “essential” (aka “invulnerable”) NPCs have been part of other Elder Scrolls games for technical and mechanical reasons, and that is something that makes sense for ESO as well.

We also had to keep in mind future plans for Justice and prioritize aspects of the system based on their present and future compatibility. We absolutely plan to continue to make updates on the Justice System as ESO evolves with future content and player gameplay patterns. For the time being, we are monitoring the player interactions with the guards, and as the product owner and systems designer for Justice, I absolutely read feedback on the forum regularly, and our fantastic Community team passes along all sorts of feedback to our teams as well. This doesn’t mean we will (or can) implement every suggestion, but we absolutely take your experiences, critiques and suggestions into account when the opportunity arises to make adjustments to the System.

REALLY good stuff! Thanks for replying!

Now, if I read that correctly, is the TLDR; just hang on, Enforcer will come in and will work nicely with the justice system?