A guard should NOT be invincible, but THE guard should be.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

@ZOS_MandiParker Does this mean that guards will always be unkillable cause it kills the game for me a Fight I can never win is pointless getting trapped in a building with a guard means no where to run, getting CCed then breaking it only to have Talons stop you while you have CC immunity mean less Stamina to run.

This system made me stop stealing not cause of bounties or lack of fun back cause Building+ Guard = Death cause they can CC you while you have CC immunity and mostly cause my toon feels so completely useless when I know I can never stand and fight whats the point CC breaking and rooll Talons just to have to roll talons again is dumb killimg the guards removes this problem and yes people will kill like crazy but you can't say "Play any race, any armor, any weapon and any way" if you can't ever do this one basic thing the cost of freedom is the will of the people is not always pure

So will we have the Freedom and power to fight or is the great fighter in the land going to run forever

Davadin

I'll be fine if we can simply open doors while in combat....

Gidorick

Thanks for the response @ZOS_MandiParker! Cool to get the systems designer in on this. I'm totally off the idea of the waves Of stronger and stronger guards but NOT off the idea of killable guards. There MUST be a way... but it probably involves a greater change than JUST making guards killable.

And @Davadin... thanks for calling a mod's attention to this thread!

On with the ideas!

Currently I'm considering the problems with. ..

Gidorick wrote: »

• Maybe killing a guard will set a curse upon the player setting the player's stats at 1/2 of what they are for 10 minutes. Each additional guard they kill would set their stats to 1/2 their current state. A level 50 character would quickly diminish from 50 to 25 to 12 to 6 to 3 to 1... and that's after killing 6 guards. Each time a player kills a guard their time is EXTENDED for 10 minutes... so a level 50 player could be stuck at level 1 for 40 minutes or so.This would discourage players killing guards. and would serve the same function as creating stronger guards... just without actually creating more guards.
• Perhaps killing a guard also reduces a player's bounty to ZERO, but increases the heat so they are Kill on Sight for an even longer period of time... but getting killed by a guard increases the bounty a significant amount. There's a risk and reward there.
• Also, what if getting killed by a guard makes the player loose XP? That could be an interesting mechanic.

All of these would create an incentive to kill guards if you get in trouble but would give the player significant reasons to NOT get killed by a guard.

Davadin

Gidorick wrote: »

Thanks for the response @ZOS_MandiParker! Cool to get the systems designer in on this. I'm totally off the idea of the waves Of stronger and stronger guards but NOT off the idea of killable guards. There MUST be a way... but it probably involves a greater change than JUST making guards killable.

And @Davadin... thanks for calling a mod's attention to this thread!

On with the ideas!

The way I read her response is, we ARE getting killable guards soon!



....they will be called "Enforcers".

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Davadin wrote: »

I'll be fine if we can simply open doors while in combat....

Man I just stop playing for the day when that happens and kill time and vent anger on GTA 5. It's just pointless to even try when you know at the end of the day you have a no win game.

Attorneyatlawl

Varicite wrote: »

Guards have never before been considered "essential" NPCs, though. <.<

They are, here, mechanically.

@ZOS_MandiParker , is the PVP part of the justice system still coming?

Siliconhobbit_ESO

My next question would be:

To what purpose or end does it serve to attack and/or kill a guard or a group of guards?

As it stands right now, there is no purpose.

• Guards most likely do not drop loot (they cannot be killed anyways)
• Killing a guard does not wipe out any bounty you may have (akin to killing the witness to a crime)
• No other in game benefits are provided

So I am not really sure why we would need a system such has been detailed. One would assume that in any society, fantasy or not, that 'combative' situatons with any constabulary is to be avoided at all costs. Adding any sort of incentive to purposely engage city guards in active combat changes the whole idea of what a city guard is. Would they now be considered 'bosses' or just regular NPCs? Are they farmable? Do certain guards have better loot than others? Do lower level areas have lower level guards, allowing higher level players to kill them with ease?

Changing what a guard is, does, and provides to a player, opens that NPC up to, as others have stated, areas for abuse and exploitation.

While I do understand the comments and arguements made for player's 'immersion', I do not see why it is that important to be able to kill a guard, unless there is an inherent ADVANTAGE in doing so. Unfortunately by adding any advantage to killing a guard, the entire system is upset and open to abuse.

Davadin

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

I'll be fine if we can simply open doors while in combat....

Man I just stop playing for the day when that happens and kill time and vent anger on GTA 5. It's just pointless to even try when you know at the end of the day you have a no win game.

What do you mean?

It's already happening in-game now.

Try stealing something in Riften or Craglorn bank, where it's a small space, and a guard is in the same room.

Dat Despair as you clawed yourself onto the unmovable impregnable wall called.... "the door".

Chuggernaut

Keron wrote: »

Only one question: What is the incentive for this system as opposed to the invincibility of a single guard?

If I understand your proposal correctly, the idea is that the end result (dead player) is the same, no matter which system you use. It's going to have the same effect that the existing system has: If you get caught, you either pay or run away. Fighting is useless.

Its different in that you'd at least have a shot at doing something in town after killing the first guard that jumps you.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Davadin wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

I'll be fine if we can simply open doors while in combat....

Man I just stop playing for the day when that happens and kill time and vent anger on GTA 5. It's just pointless to even try when you know at the end of the day you have a no win game.

What do you mean?

It's already happening in-game now.

Try stealing something in Riften or Craglorn bank, where it's a small space, and a guard is in the same room.

Dat Despair as you clawed yourself onto the unmovable impregnable wall called.... "the door".

That's what I mean when I get locked in a bank or other building with an unkillable Guard I rage quit and play GTA 5

Siliconhobbit_ESO

Chuggernaut wrote: »

Its different in that you'd at least have a shot at doing something in town after killing the first guard that jumps you.

Again, I do not see the point, and please do not interpret my non-understanding as any attack against your comments. I'm truely trying to understand here.

If a guard jumps me, as you say, then I've already done something 'wrong'. By wrong I do not mean the actual act of thievery. By wrong I mean I didn't look long enough to see what the pathing was for the guard, or the NPC's, or I didn't ensure I was hidden enough, or I didn't use an invisibility potion, or any number of things I didn't properly plan for or wasn't aware of.

If I'm a thief and trying to avoid the law, or even the remote eyes of the law, I want nothing to do with a guard. I'll do everything in my power to avoid them at all costs. Even in the event that I DO acquire a bounty, if a guard has not seen me, I'll sneak out of the area or if I have to, spend the gold to teleport away to safety (assuming the 'haul' I have on me is worth the 146 gold to teleport directly to a wayshrine and not a fellow guildmate or friends list friend for free). I'll even log off if the bounty is so high that I cannot risk being online for a few hours.

I'm not going to go looking for a fight with a guard. Not even on a GOOD day. If I DO get caught, I'd rather run away and hide then fight the guard. After all, if I DIE to the guard, he'll take all my hard-earned stolen goods AND charge me a fine for doing the deeds. There is no reward in fighting any guard, and in giving me ANY reward for fighting a guard, the system becomes inherently flawed.

In all of our lawless activities, we have a shot at escaping (EXCEPT when inside a building and getting caught.) None of these chances need me to engage the constabulary in any manner. I have no need to risk life or limb with the 'po-po' and if I am good enough at what I do, the town guard become an after thought.

Unfortunately the only reason I see to engage the guards in combat is if I get something out of it. Once I gain an advantage for engaging a guard in combat, the entire system becomes open to exploit and abuse. If not abuse by me, then abuse by other players.

Is that a situation we want to risk inducing?

Semi-unrelated Side Note: I would agree that we need to be able to use DOORS if we get caught inside a building. At the very least, a guard should spawn OUTSIDE the door if we go through it while 'being pursued'. This way we still have a chance to escape on foot. However if we are still in town, that chance to escape becomes harder if we have to go past more guards to escape, as of course they will also join the pursuit.

Varicite

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Guards have never before been considered "essential" NPCs, though. <.<

They are, here, mechanically.

@ZOS_MandiParker , is the PVP part of the justice system still coming?

I'm not sure why you felt the need to state the obvious, which everyone clearly already knows.

I was merely speaking to her statement that previous TES titles have had "essential NPCs" as an excuse for making the guards essential in ESO.

But the guards have never been essential, as they are not actually necessary to progress through the game in any fashion (or a child), which is the general reasoning behind making NPCs essential in the games.

Domander

Davadin wrote: »

I'll be fine if we can simply open doors while in combat....

Yeah... this is needed.

Attorneyatlawl

Varicite wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Guards have never before been considered "essential" NPCs, though. <.<

They are, here, mechanically.

@ZOS_MandiParker , is the PVP part of the justice system still coming?

I'm not sure why you felt the need to state the obvious, which everyone clearly already knows.

I was merely speaking to her statement that previous TES titles have had "essential NPCs" as an excuse for making the guards essential in ESO.

But the guards have never been essential, as they are not actually necessary to progress through the game in any fashion (or a child), which is the general reasoning behind making NPCs essential in the games.

You don't seem to have known even after it being explained . No need to be rude, we're all players here. The guards are essential for the justice system. There's little other design that could be used that wouldn't be much worse overall and convoluted from a gameplay perspective. You're welcome for the further clarification.

Varicite

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Guards have never before been considered "essential" NPCs, though. <.<

They are, here, mechanically.

@ZOS_MandiParker , is the PVP part of the justice system still coming?

I'm not sure why you felt the need to state the obvious, which everyone clearly already knows.

I was merely speaking to her statement that previous TES titles have had "essential NPCs" as an excuse for making the guards essential in ESO.

But the guards have never been essential, as they are not actually necessary to progress through the game in any fashion (or a child), which is the general reasoning behind making NPCs essential in the games.

You don't seem to have known even after it being explained . No need to be rude, we're all players here. The guards are essential for the justice system. There's little other design that could be used that wouldn't be much worse overall and convoluted from a gameplay perspective. You're welcome for the further clarification.

You seem to be confusing "not knowing" w/ "not agreeing".

Don't worry, it's a pretty common mistake here on the forums.

Gidorick

Hey @Siliconhobbit_ESO. I bolded part of my quote below. Would that be enough of an incentive to kill the guard? What about the rest of the idea?

Gidorick wrote: »

• Maybe killing a guard will set a curse upon the player setting the player's stats at 1/2 of what they are for 10 minutes. Each additional guard they kill would set their stats to 1/2 their current state. A level 50 character would quickly diminish from 50 to 25 to 12 to 6 to 3 to 1... and that's after killing 6 guards. Each time a player kills a guard their time is EXTENDED for 10 minutes... so a level 50 player could be stuck at level 1 for 40 minutes or so.This would discourage players killing guards. and would serve the same function as creating stronger guards... just without actually creating more guards.
• Perhaps killing a guard also reduces a player's bounty to ZERO, but increases the heat so they are Kill on Sight for an even longer period of time... but getting killed by a guard increases the bounty a significant amount. There's a risk and reward there.
• Also, what if getting killed by a guard makes the player loose XP? That could be an interesting mechanic.

All of these would create an incentive to kill guards if you get in trouble but would give the player significant reasons to NOT get killed by a guard.

ThePonzzz

Well, I see we've had a dev in here. But I wanted to address the OP's thoughts. I don't think any change should still have the end result be an unstoppable NPC. If we ever have "waves" of guards, they should be something we can kill. Instead, I'd rather see a player become banished from a town for X number of days after killing X guards. Be KOS for the entire time, and no merchants will interact with them. The problem with this is ESO is very linear when questing. And if you get banned in a town you need to be in... You're on ice until your exile is over.

Sacadon

Siliconhobbit_ESO wrote: »

My next question would be:

To what purpose or end does it serve to attack and/or kill a guard or a group of guards?

As it stands right now, there is no purpose.

• Guards most likely do not drop loot (they cannot be killed anyways)
• Killing a guard does not wipe out any bounty you may have (akin to killing the witness to a crime)
• No other in game benefits are provided

So I am not really sure why we would need a system such has been detailed. One would assume that in any society, fantasy or not, that 'combative' situatons with any constabulary is to be avoided at all costs. Adding any sort of incentive to purposely engage city guards in active combat changes the whole idea of what a city guard is. Would they now be considered 'bosses' or just regular NPCs? Are they farmable? Do certain guards have better loot than others? Do lower level areas have lower level guards, allowing higher level players to kill them with ease?

Changing what a guard is, does, and provides to a player, opens that NPC up to, as others have stated, areas for abuse and exploitation.

While I do understand the comments and arguements made for player's 'immersion', I do not see why it is that important to be able to kill a guard, unless there is an inherent ADVANTAGE in doing so. Unfortunately by adding any advantage to killing a guard, the entire system is upset and open to abuse.

Simply because doing so is fun, especially if it's difficult... No other incentive required really.

Frenkthevile

We need Enforcers.

Gidorick

Frenkthevile wrote: »

We need Enforcers.

There's another thread for that.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/171342/player-discussion-adding-enforcers-to-the-justice-system/p1

Wreuntzylla

Siliconhobbit_ESO wrote: »

My next question would be:

To what purpose or end does it serve to attack and/or kill a guard or a group of guards?

As it stands right now, there is no purpose.

• Guards most likely do not drop loot (they cannot be killed anyways)
• Killing a guard does not wipe out any bounty you may have (akin to killing the witness to a crime)
• No other in game benefits are provided

So I am not really sure why we would need a system such has been detailed. One would assume that in any society, fantasy or not, that 'combative' situatons with any constabulary is to be avoided at all costs. Adding any sort of incentive to purposely engage city guards in active combat changes the whole idea of what a city guard is. Would they now be considered 'bosses' or just regular NPCs? Are they farmable? Do certain guards have better loot than others? Do lower level areas have lower level guards, allowing higher level players to kill them with ease?

Changing what a guard is, does, and provides to a player, opens that NPC up to, as others have stated, areas for abuse and exploitation.

While I do understand the comments and arguements made for player's 'immersion', I do not see why it is that important to be able to kill a guard, unless there is an inherent ADVANTAGE in doing so. Unfortunately by adding any advantage to killing a guard, the entire system is upset and open to abuse.

Guards interfere with your ability to conduct ongoing, illegal activities.

Further, I respectfully disagree with your assumption that in any society combative situations with any constabulary were to be avoided at all costs. Historically, in most societies, justice was not equal for all. Slayings of constabulary were not prolific because the rules applied differently to different individuals, and/or police looked the other way, engaged in criminal enterprises themselves or were eliminated, in one way or another. The idea of constabulary as untouchable is a very recent development, or at least on the scale found in first world countries today.

You only have to look as far back as the Wild West or Mafia eras in the U.S. to find support. Even today, some countries are a continuing reminder of what history records. For example, Mexican police, U.S. police, and even high level Mexican officials are killed by Mexican drug cartels from time to time.

With respect to abuse of the system, there are many ways to ensure the system is not abused. ZoS simply took the easy way out and made guards invulnerable. However, as can be seen in this thread, and other similar threads, they probably should have committed more resources to the project rather than implement a system that harshly contradicts, among other things, the 'reality' of Tamriel. For me, the reality of Tamriel is I can handle practically any threat to any alliance. I have slain the toughest generals solo, yet I am not powerful enough to handle the local beat cop...

Wreuntzylla

So, funny story...

I finish saving the Alik'r at Satakalaam (last Cadwell step in Alik'r desert) and see/hear the Imperials bound and complaining. Enraged, I attack one Imperial and a soldier jumps me while all the Imperials run away. I don't want to kill the soldier so I run off to finish up.

I plow through Motalion Necropolis and take the portal back to replace the Ansei Wards. King Fahara'Jad gives a grand speech and points out to all present that it was I who saved Alik'r. He privately tells me that I saved his throne.

I wander out of the impervious vault and a guard accosts me and wants me to pay a bounty... I run but two more guards jump me, and the three kill me.

The savior of Alik'r killed by Sentinel guards just after saving the entire kingdom...

Haha... ha...ha...ha?

Seriously, if that doesn't show just how badly the system was thought out, I don't know what does.

Gidorick

I think it's time to again bring this concept back up to see if any of the new players have any fresh thoughts or ideas about this. Currently, my thoughts are:

To have killable guards, there would need to be larger, more dramatic changes to the justice system as a whole... and there would have to be a reason a player would kill a guard instead of just trying to run away. Here are some of my thoughts.

• Maybe killing a guard will set a curse upon the player setting the player's stats at 1/2 of what they are for 10 minutes. Each additional guard they kill would set their stats to 1/2 their current state. A level 50 character would quickly diminish from 50 to 25 to 12 to 6 to 3 to 1... and that's after killing 6 guards. Each time a player kills a guard their time is EXTENDED for 10 minutes... so a level 50 player could be stuck at level 1 for 40 minutes or so.This would discourage players killing guards. and would serve the same function as creating stronger guards... just without actually creating more guards.
• Perhaps killing a guard also reduces a player's bounty to ZERO, but increases the heat so they are Kill on Sight for an even longer period of time... but getting killed by a guard increases the bounty a significant amount. There's a risk and reward there.
• Also, what if getting killed by a guard makes the player loose XP? That could be an interesting mechanic.

All of these would create an incentive to kill guards if you get in trouble but would give the player significant reasons to NOT get killed by a guard.

DenMoria

Why do you want to kill the guards? If they're attacking you, obviously you did something wrong.

Maybe we should leave the guards unkillable and make you the target of every player, everywhere, like with a Giant bullseye over your head and a great reward for killing you.

Hmm... new idea for the justice system. You wanna be an a*******, then you're gonna become a target. Simple as that.

Egg_Death

This proposal does nothing for gameplay. Why not just make guards level 200 or something so you can barely see the dent you put in their health before you die.

I'd perhaps be for killable guards if, say, you now lose all carried items on death and the best pieces of armor and weapons your account has (even if on an alt). Let's give it some REAL consequences.

ThePonzzz

I can't agree with that, @DenMoria, but I also can't agree with @Gidorick 's idea either. I don't think any guard should be invincible in the long run. I think it should become a scaling fight that gets more and more difficult as it progresses. But I don't think there should be waves of guards or any rewards for pushing through it all. I do think a guard should be killed with a lot of resources.

But the bottom line is, killing guards would become bragging rights, and I'm sure players would just kill them in town to show off.

Gidorick

Egg_Death wrote: »

This proposal does nothing for gameplay. Why not just make guards level 200 or something so you can barely see the dent you put in their health before you die.

I'd perhaps be for killable guards if, say, you now lose all carried items on death and the best pieces of armor and weapons your account has (even if on an alt). Let's give it some REAL consequences.

So the guards would loot your corpse? Lol. Harsh.

Gidorick

ThePonzzz wrote: »

I can't agree with that, @DenMoria, but I also can't agree with @Gidorick 's idea either. I don't think any guard should be invincible in the long run. I think it should become a scaling fight that gets more and more difficult as it progresses. But I don't think there should be waves of guards or any rewards for pushing through it all. I do think a guard should be killed with a lot of resources.

But the bottom line is, killing guards would become bragging rights, and I'm sure players would just kill them in town to show off.

Read my comments at the bottom of the OP @ThePonzzz. I agree waves of guards isn't the answer. I have some new thoughts.

corwinDA

Keep the guards the way they are please! When in tired of the grind I love nothing better than getting some popcorn and watching people get owned by the guards when they cant escape. Also, guards are on set patrols I've spent half an hour in a city after getting caught stealing and just avoided them on my way out.